Wtb shards

mairwen85

I've noticed a troubling trend in recent pugs. Namely healers not providing any resource assistance. I'm not talking about lowbies or new players here either. Fang lair pledge (veteran), CP 400 something templar, no orbs or shards, no ele drain... When asking, told by the healer I should get a better rotation if I can't sustain; that is me, the other dps and tank all need to L2P. Veteran blood forge, CP 600ish warden healer, same story... Its a weak dps and crappie tank problem - - apparently.

When I run healer, I am constantly refreshing hots, chucking shards or orbs, and always ensuring ele drain is up, with purifying light. Only then do I off-dps...

How does anyone think that spamming heals is the only thing a healer is good for (bol or rapid regen on constant loop)? How do you get to that level without learning otherwise?

Soris

Well for me if the healer has around 20k dps with a hybrid dd/heal build and already applied his hots and shards, it is better just to do damage until the hots run out or boss aoe phase.
Full support build isn't always needed imo.
As for dds, adding some sustain to your build is much better than having 2k more dps.

TheGreatBlackBear

There's nothing in the game that tells a healer they need to be doing anything other than restoring health. Look closely at the resto skill line for example other than combat prayer it's just basic heals there. The game itself does nothing to suggest that a healer should use ele drain or wall from the destro line for example. As for orbs that's from an optional guild line, similar story with warhorn. Unless they do trials there's no real reason to expect that a healer knows their job is 90% buffing and debuffing and 10% healing. If so much.

Sheezabeast

I don’t know I feel the same way about tanks that offer zero crowd control and only run around taunting things.

idk

You go into a pug and you are asking for a good change at a minimal healer, tank with bad priorities and low dps.

Form your own group and give yourself choice. BTW, many healers do not have shards and everyone has to level up Undaunted to get orbs so you will go without if you get a new character healing.

mairwen85

@idk I can accept that from a new player, or levelling char. But at the levels I mention, and running vet content, that's no excuse in imo.

Only templars have shards, not all healers are templars. But there are other skills that work as alternatives.

Katahdin

Well when we are on a boss where I have to spend most of my time blocking and my stam runs out, they can enjoy the wipe and restart.

idk

mairwen85 wrote: »

@idk I can accept that from a new player, or levelling char. But at the levels I mention, and running vet content, that's no excuse in imo.

I do not run dungeons until I finish leveling a character. So your thoughts are not appropriate.

And again, if you have issue with it then form your own group. It is really that simple. This thread will do nothing at all to change what you are experiencing.

mairwen85

@idk I'm under no illusion it will change anything. I'm just confused how someone can fully level a character for a role and not be aware of what skills are available to fulfil that role.

I get mistakes, I made plenty of them, bad morph choice, etc. We've all been there. But I'd expect beyond early CP, most players would be aware of those mistakes and best choices. Especially at 400+, most players should really know from what they see and hear, experience from just playing and interacting.

Not everyone starts off with a build plan, but it's not hard to change your build as you grow in a role.

Eso isn't unique in having healers. They work much the same in other games. Healer buffs, debuffs, and heals, does damage if there's time/space.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

In ESO, a healers role is to help their group manage resources, which includes but is not limited to the health bar. Good healers know that, bad healers whine about DPS in pug groups...

idk

It is an error that because someone is healing a dungeon they leveled that character to heal. Many healers you are getting are DPS that can heal.

And just like good tanks avoid the GF, so do good healers. They can easily get into groups via their guilds and avoid the low dps, bad tanking and healer across the board. Oh, and good dps avoid the random groups in GF as well.

So, in other words, you are asking for players with less skill with using the GF to form a group for you. That is really what this thread is about at it's core.

Tasear

With the new healer set you will have more options to get resources. Also ...let's buff resto staff with more utilty.

Tasear

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

In ESO, a healers role is to help their group manage resources, which includes but is not limited to the health bar. Good healers know that, bad healers whine about DPS in pug groups...

Game only requires you to heal to full fill the role. It's the players decisions afterwards on standards.

mairwen85

That's an absurd reduction @idk, but, OK.

Because you say so, any further response is pre-emptively voided because the option is open to form your own group - - and let's pretend that people aren't entering into an agreement when they use GF. The GF excuses everything beyond the point of 'join queue'.

However, this same scenario can still occur if you recruit from guild. GF is not exclusive to guild less players. Just because I had this in a PUG doesn't mean those same guys haven't run with friends or guild mates. Could be that pre forming groups have reinforced it even.

idk

Tasear wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

In ESO, a healers role is to help their group manage resources, which includes but is not limited to the health bar. Good healers know that, bad healers whine about DPS in pug groups...

Game only requires you to heal to full fill the role. It's the players decisions afterwards on standards.

This is very correct when going into a random group.

zvavi

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

There's nothing in the game that tells a healer they need to be doing anything other than restoring health.

There is also nothing in the game that says dd's needs to weave, but I expect dd's that go into vet dlc dungeons to at least know rotation, and not Spam lightening flood (I have seen a 700 cp like that). "Healers should only heal" well guess what? In a good group, YOU DONT NEED HEALERS, so at least buff things so you will not be dead weight. (Yesterday I finished vSCP with a healerless group while it was the tank's first time tanking it. We almost finished it no death with dying only to one shot mechanics in the last boss)

Edit: also without resources, full health tank will still die to heavy attacks cause he can't block. #vet DLC dungeons

Konstant_Tel_Necris

mairwen85 wrote: »

I've noticed a troubling trend in recent pugs. Namely healers not providing any resource assistance. I'm not talking about lowbies or new players here either. Fang lair pledge (veteran), CP 400 something templar, no orbs or shards, no ele drain... When asking, told by the healer I should get a better rotation if I can't sustain; that is me, the other dps and tank all need to L2P. Veteran blood forge, CP 600ish warden healer, same story... Its a weak dps and crappie tank problem - - apparently.

When I run healer, I am constantly refreshing hots, chucking shards or orbs, and always ensuring ele drain is up, with purifying light. Only then do I off-dps...

How does anyone think that spamming heals is the only thing a healer is good for (bol or rapid regen on constant loop)? How do you get to that level without learning otherwise?

I know your feel, when use Moondancer, but also I have mirrored problem, I use Twilight Remedy on Templar Healer in dungeons and I provide as much synergy as possible to proc it, but more and more times I just see that's players stop use synergy, and they void, before I stopped use that's interesting set because of this problem I even announced in group chat a plea use my synergy, now replaced it with other support set, still remembering that's @Tasear build when I first time tested Twilight Remedy, good times.

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

There's nothing in the game that tells a healer they need to be doing anything other than restoring health. Look closely at the resto skill line for example other than combat prayer it's just basic heals there. The game itself does nothing to suggest that a healer should use ele drain or wall from the destro line for example. As for orbs that's from an optional guild line, similar story with warhorn. Unless they do trials there's no real reason to expect that a healer knows their job is 90% buffing and debuffing and 10% healing. If so much.

There is Siphon Spirit actually but eledrain is much better as well Elemental Blockade for crusher\magicka drain enchant and Minor Vulerability.
Support healer much better teammate then healbot.
Sure if Siphon skill was actually useful for proc enchants, have nice synergy like shards or orbs have zero cost like elemental drain, currently its much redundant in compare to Blood Altar and Elemental Drain.
If only Siphon was able to do actual damage to proc chants in AoE as DoT, return chunk of resources on synergy in AoE in depend how long it was on target with max return on target dead.

I do not agree on warhorn and orbs, as both skill line are intended to be used as team support, otherwise why need to bring dedicated healer if Tank and DD can selfsustain without your support, they better get third DD then healbot.

I hope Necromancer class will have lots of group utility and unique synergy, like for example dig up usable corpses no only for self or fellow necromancers but also able throw bone to hungry werewolves and give corpses for Templar tanks and DD repentance.
I hope Necromancer will not be so poor on group support as Sorcerer and Nightblade.

Nerouyn

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

There's nothing in the game that tells a healer they need to be doing anything other than restoring health. Look closely at the resto skill line for example other than combat prayer it's just basic heals there. The game itself does nothing to suggest that a healer should use ele drain or wall from the destro line for example. As for orbs that's from an optional guild line, similar story with warhorn. Unless they do trials there's no real reason to expect that a healer knows their job is 90% buffing and debuffing and 10% healing. If so much.

All excellent points.

I'll add another : theme.

The undaunted skill line is necromantically themed. Just all by itself that's not to everyone's tastes.

On top of this, fans of the franchise would know that necromancy is extremely frowned upon and illegal. It's the epitome of antisocial behaviour. ESO is the opposite - it's the epitome of pro social behaviour, it being the skill line dedicated to group stuff.

WTF?!

Also ESO shouldn't have classes, but it does, and having gone that route the undaunted necromancy themed skills are a good fit for nightblades, a decent fit for sorcerers, and a weird / terrible fit for the others. Especially the life / goodness themed templars and wardens.

I ignore the undaunted skill line entirely and as someone who typically does play healers, it's one of the reasons I don't do group content in ESO. It's easy for me to imagine though that some healers might do the content and simply ignore these skills for the same reason.

idk

mairwen85 wrote: »

That's an absurd reduction @idk, but, OK.

Because you say so, any further response is pre-emptively voided because the option is open to form your own group - - and let's pretend that people aren't entering into an agreement when they use GF. The GF excuses everything beyond the point of 'join queue'.

However, this same scenario can still occur if you recruit from guild. GF is not exclusive to guild less players. Just because I had this in a PUG doesn't mean those same guys haven't run with friends or guild mates. Could be that pre forming groups have reinforced it even.

Clearly not the case. Even Tasear, who mains a healer, stated the core job of a healer is to heal. They people you are complaining about are meeting the core requirement for their role. Considering I have seen a destro/destro DK as a healer via GF it seems you are doing great getting someone who has actual group heals.

Yes, the same scenario can occur if you recruit from guild and just ask for a healer. If you choose someone and state you want shards (or orbs) then you are forming the group you want. It really is that simple.

You can say my comment was an absurd reduction but it is really so much less absurd that to expect all healers found via the GF will have shards (or orbs) for you since you are really asking for a chance to get the least skilled players in the game. That is a very well known to happen.

purple-magicb16_ESO

Nothing eso can do about this. Chalk this up to different play styles. It's like ebon vs plague dr for tanks. Some builds focus on self-preservation.

mairwen85

Well, that clears it up then. Taesar mains a healer and says its OK. Personally, when I heal, I'd prefer my dps not have to worry about anything other than dps, and that my tank can tank without concern... I'd rather be topping up all resources (health is a resource), and getting through efficiently.

I see your argument though, I just think it's a narrow view of how a player should operate in a group. I'm happy to agree to disagree with you, and taesar on that one. Equally accepting your views though, respectfully.

mustangmorgan31

mairwen85 wrote: »

Well, that clears it up then. Taesar mains a healer and says its OK. Personally, when I heal, I'd prefer my dps not have to worry about anything other than dps, and that my tank can tank without concern... I'd rather be topping up all resources (health is a resource), and getting through efficiently.

I see your argument though, I just think it's a narrow view of how a player should operate in a group. I'm happy to agree to disagree with you, and taesar on that one. Equally accepting your views though, respectfully.

I agree with you. It is sooo easy to keep people alive to the point you are basically over healing. I think the healer role should buff and help with resource management because a blind monkey can keep the group up and alive. I as a healer, buff the group. I throw shards, I throw orbs, I use ele drain. I use sets that help the group. I don't think healing should just be about healing because it is too easy to just keep people alive...

Stebarnz

The 'healer' should be renamed as 'support' or 'buffer' because new players (and more experienced who don't know what to do) think all they have to do is heal, same as some tanks think all they have to do is taunt.
If people want to be a good player they need to look past what the basic requirement is and expand to try and be the best group addition there is, they will then be sought after to run better content.
Alternatively when I try to give advice to healer or tank or dps to help them become better at this game I get told to STFU and carry me. so.... is what it is, scrubs are gonna scrub.

Jhalin

If a healer only heals then they’re not ready for actual difficult content, on the most basic level

WrathOfInnos

I suspect the lack of sustain help is related to the fact that Magicka set jewelry drops with Magicka recovery enchants. I’ve met several players that were struggling with DPS and had excellent sustain (didn’t even notice if Ele Drain was missing because their Magicka pool stayed full with any rotation). In every case they weren’t aware that they could get over 500 Spell damage by re-enchanting their jewelry.

I would bet the same applies to a lot of healers. Their sustain is fine without buffs so they assume everyone else is wrong.

zTrok

Issue is needing a healer at all. You can still do a solid 40k on anything without any sustain at all, which is plenty enough for the listed things.

Have been able to personally 2 man all the vDLC hardmodes (except for bloodroot because tank and I don't like it :P) and have done them all without a healer, on a magden.

Another option is to just not pug things and maybe find some similarly skilled people to do content with, and progress through the dlc dungeons.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Tasear wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

In ESO, a healers role is to help their group manage resources, which includes but is not limited to the health bar. Good healers know that, bad healers whine about DPS in pug groups...

Game only requires you to heal to full fill the role. It's the players decisions afterwards on standards.

@Tasear
What does that statment even mean? The game doesnt "require" you to do anything. There is no check in groupfinder to determine if I have anything on my bars that can heal myself or anyone else. The only possible "requirement" from a content standpoint boils down to whether or not you clear the content.

The more subjective component is how well (quickly, smoothly, etc) you clear the content. Good groups fly through content, bad groups struggle. Nothing compels the use of the trinity (heal, tank, DPS) in this game, but experience has taught most people that it works well. It's an unspoken agreement that those in group-finder supposedly subscribe to. Assuming you want smooth, quick clears, a healer that is giving out resources is going to make that more likely, and one that doesnt, is not going to further that goal. So yes, if all you do is watch health bars, it makes you a bad healer relative to one that helps players manage all their resources.

TLDR: If you queue as a healer and dont slot skills (orbs, shards, etc.) that help a group manage their resources, you are bad at your job.

RogueShark

Sometimes I don't slot hardly any, if any, support for dungeons. I'll go full dps (with a heal skill) for most pugs because... you never know what you get with pugs and I would rather bring my 30k dps and heals than buff/sustain a 10k dps.

Tasear

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

In ESO, a healers role is to help their group manage resources, which includes but is not limited to the health bar. Good healers know that, bad healers whine about DPS in pug groups...

Game only requires you to heal to full fill the role. It's the players decisions afterwards on standards.

@Tasear
What does that statment even mean? The game doesnt "require" you to do anything. There is no check in groupfinder to determine if I have anything on my bars that can heal myself or anyone else. The only possible "requirement" from a content standpoint boils down to whether or not you clear the content.

The more subjective component is how well (quickly, smoothly, etc) you clear the content. Good groups fly through content, bad groups struggle. Nothing compels the use of the trinity (heal, tank, DPS) in this game, but experience has taught most people that it works well. It's an unspoken agreement that those in group-finder supposedly subscribe to. Assuming you want smooth, quick clears, a healer that is giving out resources is going to make that more likely, and one that doesnt, is not going to further that goal. So yes, if all you do is watch health bars, it makes you a bad healer relative to one that helps players manage all their resources.

TLDR: If you queue as a healer and dont slot skills (orbs, shards, etc.) that help a group manage their resources, you are bad at your job.

We need better tutorial is what I am saying.

Browiseth

frankly I agree with your healer. if your build can't sustain itself on its own, it's a bad build for pugs

don't follow the route of blaming your build's weaknesses on others, it's something that kills this game's community

MartiniDaniels

Today I met wonderful templar healer which didn't throw any kind of synergy, I very gently and politely asked him to provide shards for alkosh, so he immediately aggroed on me that he doesn't know what alkosh is, and this is not speed run etc
So i left him, and he wrote me whole sheets of text against the shards, i don't understand really - shards are so amazing skill, why anybody won't use them? i understand that it maybe hard for newbie healers to sustain orbs or maybe they don't have necessary undaunted level for them, but shards..