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Can ZOS explain why Altmer is the lowest magicka DPS?
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luen79rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I believe people are overreacting to parses that have been posted: 1st of all numbers are quite close as of now and that's a big acomplishment balance wise, 2nd there are far too many variables in play, including gear setups / class / CP have people tested all those variables just to jump to a conclusion that one race is better than the other? 3rd there's always the individual's input, not everyone's rotation is the same, not everyone's got the same skill on the game.PC/DC/NAserver
V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk4 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »I believe people are overreacting to parses that have been posted: 1st of all numbers are quite close as of now and that's a big acomplishment balance wise, 2nd there are far too many variables in play, including gear setups / class / CP have people tested all those variables just to jump to a conclusion that one race is better than the other? 3rd there's always the individual's input, not everyone's rotation is the same, not everyone's got the same skill on the game.
The numbers were close before Altmer were nerfed. There was no reason to nerf Altmer.11 -
JPcrazysquirrel3✭✭✭✭I guess Altmer will no longer be the master race,..."Wood Elves aren't made of wood. Sea Elves aren't made of water. M'aiq still wonders about High Elves."
"It's just not a home until you decorate the torture chamber, am I right?"
"If you want to lose 10lbs of ugly fat, I'd be happy to chop your head off!"
"Degenerates!" --- Todd Howard
"If it's not broke, don't fix it,....unless you're ZO$ and are just doing it for the money!" --- MeClass reps are just like our politicians. They promise mountains made of gold for us, but in the end, whenever they can they try to push their own agenda.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Bio:
I am in a Kevduit videoPS4 (main platform)
--- JP_Dovahkriid
PC (just for PTS since Dragon Bones)
--- JP_Dovahkriid
Playing since console release in 2015
17 characters; mainly play PvE tanks and healer, as well as PvP stamDK, magplar, and stamblade; I also have a handful of DPS toons to have variety. All AD, with one, now PvE, DC toon.
I was on the forums before, but something happened with my account info and I had to create a new account.3 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
They are. There can't be more than one viable race selection for every class.
Everyone wants their race to be BIS, and everything else garbage. That way they don't have to think, build differently, or make any hard decisions.
I have one Breton and one Altmer. I'm keeping both as is, but I will probably build their CP, glyphs, and food a little different.Edited by Minalan on February 6, 2019 1:38AM0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
They are. There can't be more than one viable race selection for every class.
Everyone wants their class to be BIS, and everything else garbage. That way they don't have to think, build differently, or make any hard decisions.
I have one Breton and one Altmer. I'm keeping both as is, but I will probably build their CP, glyphs, and food a little different.
The thing is, ZOS had achieved damn near perfect balance (for magicka DPS) in round 1 of the PTS.
Breton and Altmer were within 0.5% DPS of one another (Breton were pulling ahead by a hair).
Khajiit were a bit higher on some classes, lower on others.
What has ZOS done since then:
1. Nerfed Altmer slightly
2. Buffed Khajiit slightly
3. Buffed Shadow Mundus (an indirect buff to Khajiit)
They made unnecessary changes to something that was balanced extremely well.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 6, 2019 1:38AM18 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
They already stated their design process. The decisions are based on how many set piece bonuses value every race receives.
The only question is, are the five piece set bonus passives actually balanced to begin with? Is seducer set as valuable as Julianos? I think it's close enough.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
They already stated their design process. The decisions are based on how many set piece bonuses value every race receives.
The only question is, are the five piece set bonus passives actually balanced to begin with? Is seducer set as valuable as Julianos? I think it's close enough.
Which is a flawed way to go about balance since it ignores context.
Higher sustain = higher DPS because you don't need to use sustain glyphs. Their model doesn't capture that.7 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
They are. There can't be more than one viable race selection for every class.
Everyone wants their race to be BIS, and everything else garbage. That way they don't have to think, build differently, or make any hard decisions.
I have one Breton and one Altmer. I'm keeping both as is, but I will probably build their CP, glyphs, and food a little different.
Ofc not everything will be equally good in everything but everything can actually have a niche in which they're BiS at. But this isn't the case, Dunmer and Altmer are just trash for almost everything now yay.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.5 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
They already stated their design process. The decisions are based on how many set piece bonuses value every race receives.
The only question is, are the five piece set bonus passives actually balanced to begin with? Is seducer set as valuable as Julianos? I think it's close enough.
Which is a flawed way to go about balance since it ignores context.
Higher sustain = higher DPS because you don't need to use sustain glyphs. Their model doesn't capture that.
Not really, at some point sustain becomes just too much and pointless because you're not using as much as you regenerate. Breton is probably over that line already for some classes with strong Regeneration skills, synergies, and passives.
You can never have too much damage. Altmer can still spec into nearly all damage, but will require more skill to use that way.
But then, I exclusively PVP, I don't sit in one place drooling on my keyboard for a dummy parse. Stamina is going to be really useful for blocking and dodging. On an altmer sorc that stamina will fuel dark conversion. It's going to be really good for Cyrodiil.1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Dunmer got an buff too increasing resources.MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Don't like the shadow buff, prefer to stay in the shadow.
The sea if full with battleship and the sky with bombers. name change to Bismarck
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Ozby✭✭✭✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
Its almost like... this is a... test... server... where... they... test... -- oh no. wait. nevermind. This is the public test server, has nothing to do with testing at all.
Not sure how long you've been here, but most extreme issues get ignored on the PTS even when a large amount of people make their case, spend time researching, make threads, etc. etc. If you don't believe me please go look at the Magicka Templar threads from Morrowind and onwards as an example.
Now to the OP:
I agree, Altmer needs to be given something to compensate properly for the removal of our sustain passive. Already, and this is from a PvP perspective because yes we need to discuss PvP as well, Altmer is behind on pretty much every magicka spec except Sorcerer. What I mean by this is that, sure, it's powerful on live as is, but when you take into account everything you need in PvP to survive and fight outnumbered, Altmer drifts to about third on the list for your top choice for magicka (I'm not discussing Sorcerer, Altmer is definitely the better race for it on live, even if I have always preferred my Dunmer). Top choices for PvPers right now would be Argonian, Breton, then Altmer. This is because Argonians are extremely tanky, can drop things like entropy on their bars and use spell power pots, and have superior stamina sustain for magicka. Bretons because of spell resist, and that's about it, really, on live. And Altmer doesn't offer anything to do with surviving, but at least could provide some sustain and some damage.
So while I do see the benefits of the stamina sustain, I still don't see the benefits of choosing Altmer over Argonian or Breton next patch in PvP. I main a Breton magicka warden currently and have for awhile now, and I'm excited for the changes to Breton, but looking at the Altmer changes is depressing.
I do think that Altmer should have to pick between damage and high sustain, but I don't see why all their sustain had to be taken away. The regen on Altmer is one of the biggest reasons to choose the race in the first place, and while they shouldn't have it all, that doesn't mean they shouldn't at least get a bit of sustain. I'm still pretty baffled. I just really hope they choose to reverse some of this nerf without trying to change everything else to "fall in line" with it.
Er all the forums are full of is PVP players points of view.PC NA
Aurora Bravepaw (Healden), Basks in Fire (DKTank), Bran Artlion (Magplar), Brindel Seedthorne (Stamden WW), Brugo Gargak (Stamcro), Casimir Delmar (StamDK), Falco Bastion (Stamsorc), Fus Ro Dah (Stamplar), Gandalff the Gay (Petsorc), Jo-Qinan Betula (Magden), Laveera Hex (Magcro), Raine Whitestag (Stamden), Raised by Bears (Wardentank), Ralak Rotheart (Healcro), Selene Sunshadow MagDK), Shadow Mirage (NBTank), Slythe Rattlebone (Healplar), Ulfnor Dragonslayer (Tankcro).0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
They already stated their design process. The decisions are based on how many set piece bonuses value every race receives.
The only question is, are the five piece set bonus passives actually balanced to begin with? Is seducer set as valuable as Julianos? I think it's close enough.
Which is a flawed way to go about balance since it ignores context.
Higher sustain = higher DPS because you don't need to use sustain glyphs. Their model doesn't capture that.
Not really, at some point sustain becomes just too much and pointless because you're not using as much as you regenerate. Breton is probably over that line already for some classes with strong Regeneration skills, synergies, and passives.
You can never have too much damage. Altmer can still spec into nearly all damage, but will require more skill to use that way.
But then, I exclusively PVP, I don't sit in one place drooling on my keyboard for a dummy parse. Stamina is going to be really useful for blocking and dodging. On an altmer sorc that stamina will fuel dark conversion. It's going to be really good for Cyrodiil.
In PvE, you can never have enough sustain.
Breton are able to use Berserker glyph (452 spell damage) because they can sustain a 6 million target dummy without needing to build for sustain.
Altmer do not have enough sustain to take down a 6 million target dummy. They need to slot a magicka absorb glyph (+4k magic per light attack).
This results in 452 spell damage for Breton vs. 258 spell damage for Altmer (plus the 4k magic damage from the glyph). Breton comes out slightly on top. This was before the Altmer nerfs. There was no reason to nerf them.
Altmer cannot build for full damage because they would need to use heavy attacks then which result in a huge DPS loss.
Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 6, 2019 2:11AM6 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
They already stated their design process. The decisions are based on how many set piece bonuses value every race receives.
The only question is, are the five piece set bonus passives actually balanced to begin with? Is seducer set as valuable as Julianos? I think it's close enough.
Which is a flawed way to go about balance since it ignores context.
Higher sustain = higher DPS because you don't need to use sustain glyphs. Their model doesn't capture that.
Not really, at some point sustain becomes just too much and pointless because you're not using as much as you regenerate. Breton is probably over that line already for some classes with strong Regeneration skills, synergies, and passives.
You can never have too much damage. Altmer can still spec into nearly all damage, but will require more skill to use that way.
But then, I exclusively PVP, I don't sit in one place drooling on my keyboard for a dummy parse. Stamina is going to be really useful for blocking and dodging. On an altmer sorc that stamina will fuel dark conversion. It's going to be really good for Cyrodiil.
In PvE, you can never have enough sustain.
Breton are able to use Berserker glyph (452 spell damage) because they can sustain a 6 million target dummy without needing to build for sustain.
Altmer do not have enough sustain to take down a 6 million target dummy. They need to slot a magicka absorb glyph (+4k magic per light attack).
This results in 452 spell damage for Breton vs. 258 spell damage for Altmer (plus the 4k magic damage from the glyph). Breton comes out slightly on top. This was before the Altmer nerfs. There was no reason to nerf them.
Altmer cannot build for full damage because they would need to use heavy attacks then which result in a huge DPS loss.
You give a choice between berserker or not, like that's the only thing you can possibly do to improve sustain. No Magicka steal. No potions or class skills and passives. No jewelry glyph.1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
They already stated their design process. The decisions are based on how many set piece bonuses value every race receives.
The only question is, are the five piece set bonus passives actually balanced to begin with? Is seducer set as valuable as Julianos? I think it's close enough.
Which is a flawed way to go about balance since it ignores context.
Higher sustain = higher DPS because you don't need to use sustain glyphs. Their model doesn't capture that.
Not really, at some point sustain becomes just too much and pointless because you're not using as much as you regenerate. Breton is probably over that line already for some classes with strong Regeneration skills, synergies, and passives.
You can never have too much damage. Altmer can still spec into nearly all damage, but will require more skill to use that way.
But then, I exclusively PVP, I don't sit in one place drooling on my keyboard for a dummy parse. Stamina is going to be really useful for blocking and dodging. On an altmer sorc that stamina will fuel dark conversion. It's going to be really good for Cyrodiil.
In PvE, you can never have enough sustain.
Breton are able to use Berserker glyph (452 spell damage) because they can sustain a 6 million target dummy without needing to build for sustain.
Altmer do not have enough sustain to take down a 6 million target dummy. They need to slot a magicka absorb glyph (+4k magic per light attack).
This results in 452 spell damage for Breton vs. 258 spell damage for Altmer (plus the 4k magic damage from the glyph). Breton comes out slightly on top. This was before the Altmer nerfs. There was no reason to nerf them.
Altmer cannot build for full damage because they would need to use heavy attacks then which result in a huge DPS loss.
You give a choice between berserker or not, like that's the only thing you can possibly do to improve sustain. No Magicka steal. No potions or class skills and passives. No jewelry glyph.
Any of those will give an equal or greater DPS loss. The moment you need to build for sustain, you lose DPS.
This is why Breton is ahead. They don't need to build for sustain.
Now, the difference before the latest changes was great because the two races were extremely close. With these nerfs, Altmer sustain gets harder for no reason.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 6, 2019 2:27AM8 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hate to break it to you, but the entire game doesn't revolve around DPS parses. Altmers have the most DMG, it's a fact. They will always have more DMG than Breton. The sustain a Breton provides is amazing for DPS which pulls them up in a longer parse (we're talking within 2% dps here mind you). Have you thought about shorter bursts where that sustain is wasted?
DMG =/= DPS as you have stated because you can trade through different choices in your build. Where the Altmer can choose to build in to sustain, the Breton can't. They will NEVER be able to make up for that 258 DMG and in a lot of cases, burst trumps sustain. Maybe that's where their strength is now. I don't think anyone disagrees that Altmer DPS will be lower.
You use a very specific example of a berserker enchant for Breton vs absorb magicka for Altmer, but an Altmer can use a berserker enchant too. What do you not understand about this. Altmer just looks to be a more bursty option than before and these DPS parses you keep referring to are NOT the end all, be all.
How about you test things for yourself. This is the PTS, test things and come back with results and an argument that makes sense. Maybe ZOS will listen.
I'd fight for more useful utility at this point. They have 0 intention of giving Altmer's sustain and DMG.4 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Marshall1289 wrote: »Hate to break it to you, but the entire game doesn't revolve around DPS parses. Altmers have the most DMG, it's a fact. They will always have more DMG than Breton. The sustain a Breton provides is amazing for DPS which pulls them up in a longer parse (we're talking within 2% dps here mind you). Have you thought about shorter bursts where that sustain is wasted?
DMG =/= DPS as you have stated because you can trade through different choices in your build. Where the Altmer can choose to build in to sustain, the Breton can't. They will NEVER be able to make up for that 258 DMG and in a lot of cases, burst trumps sustain. Maybe that's where their strength is now. I don't think anyone disagrees that Altmer DPS will be lower.
You use a very specific example of a berserker enchant for Breton vs absorb magicka for Altmer, but an Altmer can use a berserker enchant too. What do you not understand about this. Altmer just looks to be a more bursty option than before and these DPS parses you keep referring to are NOT the end all, be all.
How about you test things for yourself. This is the PTS, test things and come back with results and an argument that makes sense. Maybe ZOS will listen.
I'd fight for more useful utility at this point. They have 0 intention of giving Altmer's sustain and DMG.
Burst is only relevant in PvP, and even there, only in gank scenarios.
But this thread is about DPS, not burst damage. So your point is moot regardless.Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 6, 2019 3:03AM11 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
That's a straw man argument.
Most people just don't want to see nerfs every patch anymore, they want to see their class progressing, their race progressing, not regressing.
It doesn't take a genius to extrapolate the fact that if altmer was already below, then this change only made them worse, you don;t need genius iq levels to reach that conclusions, use your brain, if altmer is a mag race, and you remove that mag, and substitute it with stam, that is obviously going to hurt your dps, just basic logic.
You don't need to test everything to reach a good conclusion if you already have the evidence.
About your completely disregarded cp.... that is really dumb, you do realize that all of them benefit from this,m so the gap ISN'T CLOSED.Edited by JinMori on February 6, 2019 3:47AM8 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Marshall1289 wrote: »Hate to break it to you, but the entire game doesn't revolve around DPS parses. Altmers have the most DMG, it's a fact. They will always have more DMG than Breton. The sustain a Breton provides is amazing for DPS which pulls them up in a longer parse (we're talking within 2% dps here mind you). Have you thought about shorter bursts where that sustain is wasted?
DMG =/= DPS as you have stated because you can trade through different choices in your build. Where the Altmer can choose to build in to sustain, the Breton can't. They will NEVER be able to make up for that 258 DMG and in a lot of cases, burst trumps sustain. Maybe that's where their strength is now. I don't think anyone disagrees that Altmer DPS will be lower.
You use a very specific example of a berserker enchant for Breton vs absorb magicka for Altmer, but an Altmer can use a berserker enchant too. What do you not understand about this. Altmer just looks to be a more bursty option than before and these DPS parses you keep referring to are NOT the end all, be all.
How about you test things for yourself. This is the PTS, test things and come back with results and an argument that makes sense. Maybe ZOS will listen.
I'd fight for more useful utility at this point. They have 0 intention of giving Altmer's sustain and DMG.
What you said here is mostly just plain wrong.8 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Marshall1289 wrote: »Hate to break it to you, but the entire game doesn't revolve around DPS parses. Altmers have the most DMG, it's a fact. They will always have more DMG than Breton. The sustain a Breton provides is amazing for DPS which pulls them up in a longer parse (we're talking within 2% dps here mind you). Have you thought about shorter bursts where that sustain is wasted?
DMG =/= DPS as you have stated because you can trade through different choices in your build. Where the Altmer can choose to build in to sustain, the Breton can't. They will NEVER be able to make up for that 258 DMG and in a lot of cases, burst trumps sustain. Maybe that's where their strength is now. I don't think anyone disagrees that Altmer DPS will be lower.
You use a very specific example of a berserker enchant for Breton vs absorb magicka for Altmer, but an Altmer can use a berserker enchant too. What do you not understand about this. Altmer just looks to be a more bursty option than before and these DPS parses you keep referring to are NOT the end all, be all.
How about you test things for yourself. This is the PTS, test things and come back with results and an argument that makes sense. Maybe ZOS will listen.
I'd fight for more useful utility at this point. They have 0 intention of giving Altmer's sustain and DMG.
What you said here is mostly just plain wrong.
None of it is wrong. It's all correct, as a matter of fact.0331
06023 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They're not the lowest Magicka DPS.
I don't know where you're getting your data from but I can assure you with utmost confidence that Altmer are not anywhere near close to having low Magicka DPS.
They're second only to Khajiit at this point.Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
20 Argonians
6x IR, 7x GH, 7x TTT, 5x GS, 6x DB, 1x PB, 4x SBS, 1x MM, 1x US, 2x CB, 1x Unchained8 -
Priyasekarssk✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
The current state of the Altmer race seems to contradict your philosophy on them being the "magicka damage" race. As paying customers, I think we are owed an explanation. Maybe you guys can share your internal builds that are outparsing everyone else's.
To be honest , Many white people are playing EP only. Many of the EP guilds no one can join. Noob streamers are playing DC. Many ESO streamers are not pros either . They dont or cannot play other than ESO and got beaten hard by good PVP gurus in other games even though they can earn 10 -100 times more.
Hardly few thousands followers ? May be ? They cannot face some of the best players and always needs cheese.
There you got the answer. Make a DC alt for PVP and join the zergs .
Don't take this game serious. Even the bugs and exploits itself will drive many good players away. Its not a competitive PVP game world class top PVP pros of the world are playing who have millions of followers. ESO once had. Now dont. ESO is a missed opportunity that skyrim created. ESO cannot compete with 10 year old MMOs with subpar cartoon graphics. How much expectations do players have for next bethesda game ? Just ask yourself.
AD will be always third in all alliance wars in all campaigns. There is no need for any explanation for anyone. Just understand thats how ESO works. Game with little bit unbalance here and there is tolerable sometimes not even noticeable. But, this is going beyond limits taking everyone for fools. Orc currently about 60 percent more powerful than other races in PVP. Movement speed , healing, damage WTF!!!! Argonian is little bit op right now in terms of PVP bonuses.
AD a big no go zone for PVP. Adapt to ESO.
If you serious gamer or streamer chose another competitive PVP game.
Just play this game for fun. You spent money on this game right.
Some people will cut their own hands that feeds them and eat it. Same for the company who pays every pay check.Edited by Priyasekarssk on February 6, 2019 5:01PM0 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Priyasekarssk wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
The current state of the Altmer race seems to contradict your philosophy on them being the "magicka damage" race. As paying customers, I think we are owed an explanation. Maybe you guys can share your internal builds that are outparsing everyone else's.
To be honest , Many white people are playing EP only. Many of the EP guilds no one can join. Noob streamers are playing DC. Many ESO streamers are not pros either . They dont or cannot play other than ESO and got beaten hard by good PVP gurus.
Hardly few thousands followers ? May be ? They cannot face some of the best players and always needs cheese.
There you got the answer. Make a DC alt for PVP and join the zergs . Don't take this game serious. Even the bugs and exploits itself will drive many good players away. Its not a competitive PVP game world class top PVP pros of the world are playing who have millions of followers. ESO once had. Now dont. ESO is a missed opportunity that skyrim created. ESO cannot compete with 10 year old MMOs with subpar cartoon graphics. How much expectations do players have for next bethesda game ? Just ask yourself.
AD will be always third in all alliance wars in all campaigns. There is no need for any explanation for anyone. Just understand thats how ESO works. Thats the world we living in. AD a big no go zone for PVP. Adapt to ESO.
If you serious gamer or streamer chose another competitive PVP game.
Just play this game for fun. You spent money on this game right.
Some people will cut their own hands that feeds them and eat it. Same for the company who pays every pay check.
There are these special moments when the unorganised cluster *** that is AD somehow managed to get some semblance of order, then we crush it.
When the stars align anyway...EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »FlamingBeard wrote: »It's not, Dunmer is. lol
The difference between them is virtually non-existent now. They're both in the gutter.
But there is a difference making your statement incorrect. Also, Bretton, iirc, is even lower. It is the sustain race.
Granted, I think the change made this week is very odd.
Breton has more spell damage with Bersekrer enchant.
And if you can run berserker enchant on altmer then altmer has more spell dmg. If you are going to compare their passives then compare their passives. Bringing in other factors is irrelevant with their passives. Bretons are not ahead altmers in dmg. They are just more consistent because they have sustain and if the fight requires sustain that altmers don't have they may fall behind. But in terms of raw dmg output in identical setups, altmer is ahead of Breton.5 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »grannas211 wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
Its almost like... this is a... test... server... where... they... test... -- oh no. wait. nevermind. This is the public test server, has nothing to do with testing at all.
ZOS ignored all the test results that were provided by the public. Is that not concerning?
They buffed all racials with stats tied to them, did a stealth rework for Bosmer, made Dunmer closer to Altmer for DPS, almost did a complete rework on orcs again, reworked red diamond and buffed argonians.
All major community concerns after testing. Not bad for a weeks work in my opinion.
Now we wait, sim the new changes, and then we come back here and discuss the results.
You seemed to ignore the Altmer nerf in your list. How convenient.
They had a major passive turned into a utility passive. To be more in line with many other racials from a DD perspective, who have 1 passive dedicated to utility or suitability. Dunmers fire resist + health + burning immunity, Bretons spell resistance, Khajiit health and health recovery.
You're pulling us in circles here. Im sorry but im done. You're right, Altmer where nerfed, but you're not correct about them being lowest magica DPS by a long shot. Id almost put money on them being second after Breton right now. And guess what. This is the test server. Dont like that bretons have more damage? Get the results, make your case, hope Zenni agrees.
You've brought up the Khajiit/Shadow buff without thinking about it, completely ignored the CP buff, disregarded the fact that Dunmer are lower magica dps and pretended like ZOS did nothing to appease any community concerns in the latest update. If you cant see that then I dont know what to say.
why should the damage race be second in damage behind the sustain race?
On paper they do have more damage. But as we have seen sustain makes up the difference.
Post your results, ZOS will make changes to fit. You can read the developer comments on all these changes, its not like they believe Breton should be top dps. How is this so hard to understand?
But the results had already been shared and ZOS ignored them. How does one get ZOS to take notice of the testing being done on the public test server?
Actually the results did show that altmers were ahead of Bretons because they did parse higher and they still are. Bretons can only close the gap and go higher when sustain becomes a part of the fight which makes sense cause they are the sustain race. So it's actually balanced. If Bretons couldn't compete even in sustain fights which is the whole point of the race then it would be imbalanced because altmers would be ahead in every way like it is on live.
Again, in terms of raw dmg output altmers are ahead. Bretons can only compete when sustain also becomes important which is the whole freaking point.3 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »grannas211 wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Especially without the PTS having been up since the 4.3.2 notes.
They were already slightly behind Breton and Khajiit on the last PTS. They just got hit with nerfs. That stands to reason they can only drop further behind.
Right. And how did the CP change factor into this theory of yours?
Breton got buffed just as much as Altmer so no net change. Breton is still abead.
Khajiit also got direct buffs and the Shadow buff which should keep them ahead.
Right. And should breton be way lower than Altmer? They are/where the go to healer.
I hope your not suggesting that Altmer should just flat out be better than Breton in every way.
Breton were already better before Altmer got hit with nerfs. The nerfs only widened the gap.
Breton deal more damage and have more sustain than Altmer. I was fine with Altmer being a little bit behind. But to nerf them after they were already behind is beyond ridiculous.
Ok. Breton was one of the go-to magica races.
All 3 main magica races have been buffed significantly.
If it turns out there is an undesirably large performance delta between the Spell Damage or Altmer, and the Regen of Bretons in their ability to deal damage, then ZOS will change it. This is the test server. We're here to test things.
There was already a small gap between Breton and Altmer, in favour of Breton. So ZOS nerfed... Altmer. They clearly aren't testing these changes, which is why no one is optimistic
Its almost like... this is a... test... server... where... they... test... -- oh no. wait. nevermind. This is the public test server, has nothing to do with testing at all.
ZOS ignored all the test results that were provided by the public. Is that not concerning?
They buffed all racials with stats tied to them, did a stealth rework for Bosmer, made Dunmer closer to Altmer for DPS, almost did a complete rework on orcs again, reworked red diamond and buffed argonians.
All major community concerns after testing. Not bad for a weeks work in my opinion.
Now we wait, sim the new changes, and then we come back here and discuss the results.
You seemed to ignore the Altmer nerf in your list. How convenient.
They had a major passive turned into a utility passive. To be more in line with many other racials from a DD perspective, who have 1 passive dedicated to utility or suitability. Dunmers fire resist + health + burning immunity, Bretons spell resistance, Khajiit health and health recovery.
You're pulling us in circles here. Im sorry but im done. You're right, Altmer where nerfed, but you're not correct about them being lowest magica DPS by a long shot. Id almost put money on them being second after Breton right now. And guess what. This is the test server. Dont like that bretons have more damage? Get the results, make your case, hope Zenni agrees.
You've brought up the Khajiit/Shadow buff without thinking about it, completely ignored the CP buff, disregarded the fact that Dunmer are lower magica dps and pretended like ZOS did nothing to appease any community concerns in the latest update. If you cant see that then I dont know what to say.
why should the damage race be second in damage behind the sustain race?
On paper they do have more damage. But as we have seen sustain makes up the difference.
Post your results, ZOS will make changes to fit. You can read the developer comments on all these changes, its not like they believe Breton should be top dps. How is this so hard to understand?
But the results had already been shared and ZOS ignored them. How does one get ZOS to take notice of the testing being done on the public test server?
Actually the results did show that altmers were ahead of Bretons because they did parse higher and they still are. Bretons can only close the gap and go higher when sustain becomes a part of the fight which makes sense cause they are the sustain race. So it's actually balanced. If Bretons couldn't compete even in sustain fights which is the whole point of the race then it would be imbalanced because altmers would be ahead in every way like it is on live.
Again, in terms of raw dmg output altmers are ahead. Bretons can only compete when sustain also becomes important which is the whole freaking point.
Why bring facts to the argument when you can bring your feelings instead though?EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade4 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »So when all is said and done, you gonna race change or nah?
Of course not. His only concern is for the lore. That's obviously the only reason he plays Altmer. At least that's what all these posts would have one believe.Edited by Ajax_22 on February 6, 2019 3:21PM1 -
WoppaBoem✭✭✭✭✭In the end ESO is allowed to do what they want to create the game and combat they envision. If group of people can predict what is going to happen in the future it is Zenimax. There can be something on the horizon whereby Altmer will pull ahead just not now. Future the buff of the Cats is very smart in regards of the theme for 2019 something they are very entitled to do. If they can keep the difference very close in DPS parses while creating some very nice passives for PVP I think they are doing a good job.Xbox EU & NA - PVP Only0
