Dunmer still lacks something to make them interesting (and Altmer has lost its identity)

ToRelax · February 2019

Kesstryl wrote: »

I feel like they are trying to give to Dunmer what was traditionally an Imperial identity in traditional Elder Scrolls games, the ability to play any role. ESO is flipping the traditional lore on its head.

In single player games you can play any role on any race optimally.

Jayne_Doe · February 2019

Part of the Dunmer identity is their versatility with blade and magic. Thus, the equal bonus to both resource pools fits well with that. If it needs to be toned down a bit in relation to Altmer (or better yet, just buff Altmer), then that's fine, but I think there is still plenty of the Dunmer identity in the racial passives.

For example, in addition to this versatility with both melee and magic, they have flame resistance and immunity to burning. Dunmer have never been known for a specialization in flame magic, just in destruction magic - and thus all magic damage, which spell damage takes care of (although in ESO, spell damage affects all magicka abilities). And so, having both spell/weapon damage also fits.

I agree that Altmer should be better overall in magic. (Dunmer are versatile, but not necessarily the best at both melee and magic, or either, for that matter). And I think taking away Altmer's sustain for a utility passive is rather strange. However, traditionally, Altmer have been the best at casting magic (such as the 100% increase to their magicka pool - in Oblivion, iirc) but also with a cost (weakness to all magic). So, in some of the single player games, they were the best at casting spells, having a much larger magicka pool, but were rather susceptible to the magic of others. I doubt anyone wants them to implement that part of the traditional flavor/identity of Altmer.

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

Kesstryl wrote: »

I feel like they are trying to give to Dunmer what was traditionally an Imperial identity in traditional Elder Scrolls games, the ability to play any role. ESO is flipping the traditional lore on its head.

Dunmer are warriors and mages (historically given both blade skills and magic skills in older games). Imperials have exclusively been given benefits to personality/speachcraft and heavy-armor + long/short blade skills. It was only in skyrim where they got a starting stat for destro and resto.

What do you mean...

Steelshiv · February 2019

Sinolai wrote: »

Then, give Dunmer some unique utility that helps to attract players choosing it over other races. a couple of suggestions for the Dunmer's last passive:
-Give them increased change to proc status effects (Burn/Chill/Concussion/Poison/Disease/Bleed)
-Give them small damage boost against targets with less than 20% health (Racial execute)
-Give them small damage boost against targets affected by status effect
-Give them Small damage boost when their Health is <50%
-Give them 4.3.2 Spell Charge and give Altmer increased enchantment effects. This would fit Dunmer's "duality" theme and also add Altmers to possible Healer and Tank roles as most important raid buffs come from the Tank and Healer. (Might be dangerously good on healer to become "the only race?" Tank would sascrifice a lot for it atleast)

Am I the only one who was expecting some of the ideas op posted to be on the table for ALL races when they announced racial passive changes? I also hoped that we would get MORPHABLE passives to cater to a Stamina or Magicka playstyle.

If all races were balanced around one getting sustain, one getting flat resource pool bonuses, and the last one getting a little of both plus utility passive in ADDITION TO all three receiving a unique racial perk similar to what OP posted, then I would have been very happy and excited for the changes.

What we got instead was the removal of % bonuses for races (whatever, don't really care) and the tweaking of said bonuses for the WORSE in most cases. No thought or imagination went into the changes. It's all math and values on paper.

The_Last_Titan · February 2019

Kesstryl wrote: »

Dunmer are warriors and mages (historically given both blade skills and magic skills in older games). Imperials have exclusively been given benefits to personality/speachcraft and heavy-armor + long/short blade skills. It was only in skyrim where they got a starting stat for destro and resto.

What do you mean...

i mean how are we supposed to quantify speech and mercantile, skyrim didnt have those so it would be a better example of what they are

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

The_Last_Titan wrote: »

Kesstryl wrote: »

Dunmer are warriors and mages (historically given both blade skills and magic skills in older games). Imperials have exclusively been given benefits to personality/speachcraft and heavy-armor + long/short blade skills. It was only in skyrim where they got a starting stat for destro and resto.

What do you mean...

i mean how are we supposed to quantify speech and mercantile, skyrim didnt have those so it would be a better example of what they are

Well, not by randomly giving them a load of magica and spell damage so they can "Fit any roll", thats for damn sure.

Kalle_Demos · February 2019

Turelus wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Return the Dunmer bonus to elemental damage. Replacing the Dumer Fire Damage (7%) Lightning Damage (2%) and Ice Damage (2%) with just magic damage not only strips them of an identifying trait that players have built around for years but it's also just plain boring.

See I am against this because it pigeon holes Dunmer into using fire attacks. They're meant to be skilled at destruction magic, not a specific subset of destruction magic.

I mean right now they're pretty close to how they've been represented in every other TES game, resistant to fire and skilled at martial and magic skills.

As I pointed out, Dunmer have bonuses to all forms of Elemental Magic. Fire stands out for several reasons. Their home is abundant with Volcanic activity and this is reflected in their appearance, Ashen Skin and Red Eyes. Also that is how Fire Damage in ESO works, via the Destruction Staff skill line it deals more damage that the other elements that have other attributes for other uses. You cannot disregard ESO's mechanics, Dunmer are not the only ones utilize this and Dunmer Sorcs utilize shock as well.

Dunmer in lore may compete with Redguards and Nords in physical feats but they do not have an edge there. Magic is their edge as it has always been their Major or prominent skill and spikes above any of their martial traits, rivaling only the Altmer. It is a misconception that Dunmer versatility implies equal levels of skill in both fields. Dunmer are elves, closely related to Altmer and Aldmer thus their heritage, history and culture revolves around Magic. House Telvanni, a collection of the oldest and most powerful Mages in Tamriel are rivaled only by the predominantly Altmer Psijic Order. Magic is the attribute that allowed Elves to flourish in Tamriel in competition to Men and Beasts races. In ESO we learned that it was Chimer (Dunmer before they were cursed) Mages that were instrumental in stopping the Nedes from conquering Morrowind.

Faulgor · February 2019

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Dunmer in lore may compete with Redguards and Nords in physical feats but they do not have an edge there. Magic is their edge as it has always been their Major or prominent skill and spikes above any of their martial traits, rivaling only the Altmer. It is a misconception that Dunmer versatility implies equal levels of skill in both fields. Dunmer are elves, closely related to Altmer and Aldmer thus their heritage, history and culture revolves around Magic. House Telvanni, a collection of the oldest and most powerful Mages in Tamriel are rivaled only by the predominantly Altmer Psijic Order. Magic is the attribute that allowed Elves to flourish in Tamriel in competition to Men and Beasts races. In ESO we learned that it was Chimer (Dunmer before they were cursed) Mages that were instrumental in stopping the Nedes from conquering Morrowind.

Morrowind:
The dark-skinned, red-eyed Dark Elves combine powerful intellect with strong and agile physiques, producing superior warriors and sorcerers. On the battlefield, Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of swordsmen, marksmen, and war wizards.
+10 Short Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Long Blade, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Oblivion:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, the Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of the sword, the bow and destruction magic. They are resistant to fire and can summon an ancestral ghost for aid.
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Skyrim:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, dark elves are noted for their stealth and magic skills.
+10 Destruction
+5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Light Armor, Sneak

They only lost their weapon bonuses in Skyrim for unknown reasons. But if you didn't play anything else I guess it's forgivable to think they didn't have any to begin with..

MLGProPlayer · February 2019

Not that Dunmer need nerfs (they need buffs, if anything), but they are currently far outpacing Altmer in terms of value.

Differences between them:

Altmer

2000 max magicka
258 spell damage
215 stamina recovery

Dunmer:
1850 max magicka
1850 max stamina
258 spell damage
258 weapon damage

Altmer has 125 more magicka, or the equivalent of 12 spell damage (which will not produce any difference in testing as the value is too small) and 215 stamina regen.

So effectively, Altmer have 215 stamina recovery vs. Dunmer's 1875 stamina (~175 weapon damage) and 258 weapon damage.

There is currently no reason to pick either one as magicka DPS, but if you were to pick one, Dunmer makes more choice due to far more versatility while producing the exact same damage. They are both hybrid races, but Dunmer simply brings far more to the table.

Again, this isn't a "nerf Dunmer" post. It's a "rework Altmer" post to actually give them some value.

They are currently tied for lowest magicka DPS, and although technically a hybrid race now, their stamina damage potential is virtually non-existent.

Kalle_Demos · February 2019

Faulgor wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Dunmer in lore may compete with Redguards and Nords in physical feats but they do not have an edge there. Magic is their edge as it has always been their Major or prominent skill and spikes above any of their martial traits, rivaling only the Altmer. It is a misconception that Dunmer versatility implies equal levels of skill in both fields. Dunmer are elves, closely related to Altmer and Aldmer thus their heritage, history and culture revolves around Magic. House Telvanni, a collection of the oldest and most powerful Mages in Tamriel are rivaled only by the predominantly Altmer Psijic Order. Magic is the attribute that allowed Elves to flourish in Tamriel in competition to Men and Beasts races. In ESO we learned that it was Chimer (Dunmer before they were cursed) Mages that were instrumental in stopping the Nedes from conquering Morrowind.

Morrowind:
The dark-skinned, red-eyed Dark Elves combine powerful intellect with strong and agile physiques, producing superior warriors and sorcerers. On the battlefield, Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of swordsmen, marksmen, and war wizards.
+10 Short Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Long Blade, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Oblivion:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, the Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of the sword, the bow and destruction magic. They are resistant to fire and can summon an ancestral ghost for aid.
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Skyrim:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, dark elves are noted for their stealth and magic skills.
+10 Destruction
+5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Light Armor, Sneak

They only lost their weapon bonuses in Skyrim for unknown reasons. But if you didn't play anything else I guess it's forgivable to think they didn't have any to begin with..

Your statement is a complete misconception of the point I've been trying to make in various posts. At no point did I state that Dunmer weren't skilled warriors. As your own post points out the mechanics for the games has shifted back and forth the years but the main constant for Dunmer has been their skill in Destruction Magic outshining their martial skills. You also ignore the context of their lore and history that I've pointed out above.

Faulgor · February 2019

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Dunmer in lore may compete with Redguards and Nords in physical feats but they do not have an edge there. Magic is their edge as it has always been their Major or prominent skill and spikes above any of their martial traits, rivaling only the Altmer. It is a misconception that Dunmer versatility implies equal levels of skill in both fields. Dunmer are elves, closely related to Altmer and Aldmer thus their heritage, history and culture revolves around Magic. House Telvanni, a collection of the oldest and most powerful Mages in Tamriel are rivaled only by the predominantly Altmer Psijic Order. Magic is the attribute that allowed Elves to flourish in Tamriel in competition to Men and Beasts races. In ESO we learned that it was Chimer (Dunmer before they were cursed) Mages that were instrumental in stopping the Nedes from conquering Morrowind.

Morrowind:
The dark-skinned, red-eyed Dark Elves combine powerful intellect with strong and agile physiques, producing superior warriors and sorcerers. On the battlefield, Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of swordsmen, marksmen, and war wizards.
+10 Short Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Long Blade, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Oblivion:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, the Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of the sword, the bow and destruction magic. They are resistant to fire and can summon an ancestral ghost for aid.
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Skyrim:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, dark elves are noted for their stealth and magic skills.
+10 Destruction
+5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Light Armor, Sneak

They only lost their weapon bonuses in Skyrim for unknown reasons. But if you didn't play anything else I guess it's forgivable to think they didn't have any to begin with..

Your statement is a complete misconception of the point I've been trying to make in various posts. At no point did I state that Dunmer weren't skilled warriors. As your own post points out the mechanics for the games has shifted back and forth the years but the main constant for Dunmer has been their skill in Destruction Magic outshining their martial skills. You also ignore the context of their lore and history that I've pointed out above.

You said that it is a misconception that Dunmer have equal skill in magic and combat, that their magical ability has always "spiked above" any of their other martial skills. The bonuses from Morrowind and Oblivion as well as their in-game descriptions show this to be untrue - they are literally equally skilled.

Turelus · February 2019

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

As I pointed out, Dunmer have bonuses to all forms of Elemental Magic. Fire stands out for several reasons. Their home is abundant with Volcanic activity and this is reflected in their appearance, Ashen Skin and Red Eyes. Also that is how Fire Damage in ESO works, via the Destruction Staff skill line it deals more damage that the other elements that have other attributes for other uses. You cannot disregard ESO's mechanics, Dunmer are not the only ones utilize this and Dunmer Sorcs utilize shock as well.

Dunmer in lore may compete with Redguards and Nords in physical feats but they do not have an edge there. Magic is their edge as it has always been their Major or prominent skill and spikes above any of their martial traits, rivaling only the Altmer. It is a misconception that Dunmer versatility implies equal levels of skill in both fields. Dunmer are elves, closely related to Altmer and Aldmer thus their heritage, history and culture revolves around Magic. House Telvanni, a collection of the oldest and most powerful Mages in Tamriel are rivaled only by the predominantly Altmer Psijic Order. Magic is the attribute that allowed Elves to flourish in Tamriel in competition to Men and Beasts races. In ESO we learned that it was Chimer (Dunmer before they were cursed) Mages that were instrumental in stopping the Nedes from conquering Morrowind.

But there is still nothing previous to the ESO passives (to my knowledge) that says Dunmer use fire based magic more than any other.
This was something added by ZOS as flavour for the race and stuck around. Now we have flat spell damage to represent their skill in magic without feeling like they should only be using one subset of that.
There could be changes to lower the weapon damage and raise the spell damage as a better reflection of their mastery over magic rather than martial skill. However at least until Skyrim Dunmer were equally skilled at light blades and destruction magic, so an even split is well within their lore.

Also shouldn't their Ashlander passive give destruction staff XP as well, this currently only gives dual-wield XP.

Dunmer skills in previous games.

Morrowind

Skill Bonus
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10

Oblivion

+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Skyrim

+10 Destruction
+5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Light Armor, Sneak

validifyedneb18_ESO · February 2019

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Dunmer in lore may compete with Redguards and Nords in physical feats but they do not have an edge there. Magic is their edge as it has always been their Major or prominent skill and spikes above any of their martial traits, rivaling only the Altmer. It is a misconception that Dunmer versatility implies equal levels of skill in both fields. Dunmer are elves, closely related to Altmer and Aldmer thus their heritage, history and culture revolves around Magic. House Telvanni, a collection of the oldest and most powerful Mages in Tamriel are rivaled only by the predominantly Altmer Psijic Order. Magic is the attribute that allowed Elves to flourish in Tamriel in competition to Men and Beasts races. In ESO we learned that it was Chimer (Dunmer before they were cursed) Mages that were instrumental in stopping the Nedes from conquering Morrowind.

Morrowind:
The dark-skinned, red-eyed Dark Elves combine powerful intellect with strong and agile physiques, producing superior warriors and sorcerers. On the battlefield, Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of swordsmen, marksmen, and war wizards.
+10 Short Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Long Blade, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Oblivion:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, the Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of the sword, the bow and destruction magic. They are resistant to fire and can summon an ancestral ghost for aid.
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Skyrim:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, dark elves are noted for their stealth and magic skills.
+10 Destruction
+5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Light Armor, Sneak

They only lost their weapon bonuses in Skyrim for unknown reasons. But if you didn't play anything else I guess it's forgivable to think they didn't have any to begin with..

Your statement is a complete misconception of the point I've been trying to make in various posts. At no point did I state that Dunmer weren't skilled warriors. As your own post points out the mechanics for the games has shifted back and forth the years but the main constant for Dunmer has been their skill in Destruction Magic outshining their martial skills. You also ignore the context of their lore and history that I've pointed out above.

If you look at the it history too, large parts of it focus on armed conflict with for example the nords. If you look at the great houses it is only really telvanni that focuses on pure magic. They may be the most memorably house but they are far from the most prominent in vvadenfel or Morrowind.

Kalle_Demos · February 2019

Faulgor wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Dunmer in lore may compete with Redguards and Nords in physical feats but they do not have an edge there. Magic is their edge as it has always been their Major or prominent skill and spikes above any of their martial traits, rivaling only the Altmer. It is a misconception that Dunmer versatility implies equal levels of skill in both fields. Dunmer are elves, closely related to Altmer and Aldmer thus their heritage, history and culture revolves around Magic. House Telvanni, a collection of the oldest and most powerful Mages in Tamriel are rivaled only by the predominantly Altmer Psijic Order. Magic is the attribute that allowed Elves to flourish in Tamriel in competition to Men and Beasts races. In ESO we learned that it was Chimer (Dunmer before they were cursed) Mages that were instrumental in stopping the Nedes from conquering Morrowind.

Morrowind:
The dark-skinned, red-eyed Dark Elves combine powerful intellect with strong and agile physiques, producing superior warriors and sorcerers. On the battlefield, Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of swordsmen, marksmen, and war wizards.
+10 Short Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Long Blade, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Oblivion:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, the Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of the sword, the bow and destruction magic. They are resistant to fire and can summon an ancestral ghost for aid.
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Skyrim:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, dark elves are noted for their stealth and magic skills.
+10 Destruction
+5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Light Armor, Sneak

They only lost their weapon bonuses in Skyrim for unknown reasons. But if you didn't play anything else I guess it's forgivable to think they didn't have any to begin with..

Your statement is a complete misconception of the point I've been trying to make in various posts. At no point did I state that Dunmer weren't skilled warriors. As your own post points out the mechanics for the games has shifted back and forth the years but the main constant for Dunmer has been their skill in Destruction Magic outshining their martial skills. You also ignore the context of their lore and history that I've pointed out above.

You said that it is a misconception that Dunmer have equal skill in magic and combat, that their magical ability has always "spiked above" any of their other martial skills. The bonuses from Morrowind and Oblivion as well as their in-game descriptions show this to be untrue - they are literally equally skilled.

Um...No they aren't.

Morrowind:

Athletics +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Long Blade +5
Marksman +5
Mysticism +5
Short Blade +10

Oblvion:

Skill Modifier
Athletics +5
Blade +10
Blunt +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Marksman +5
Mysticism +5

The only other race that matches the Dunmer in their Destruction modifier are the Altmer.

Turelus wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

As I pointed out, Dunmer have bonuses to all forms of Elemental Magic. Fire stands out for several reasons. Their home is abundant with Volcanic activity and this is reflected in their appearance, Ashen Skin and Red Eyes. Also that is how Fire Damage in ESO works, via the Destruction Staff skill line it deals more damage that the other elements that have other attributes for other uses. You cannot disregard ESO's mechanics, Dunmer are not the only ones utilize this and Dunmer Sorcs utilize shock as well.

Dunmer in lore may compete with Redguards and Nords in physical feats but they do not have an edge there. Magic is their edge as it has always been their Major or prominent skill and spikes above any of their martial traits, rivaling only the Altmer. It is a misconception that Dunmer versatility implies equal levels of skill in both fields. Dunmer are elves, closely related to Altmer and Aldmer thus their heritage, history and culture revolves around Magic. House Telvanni, a collection of the oldest and most powerful Mages in Tamriel are rivaled only by the predominantly Altmer Psijic Order. Magic is the attribute that allowed Elves to flourish in Tamriel in competition to Men and Beasts races. In ESO we learned that it was Chimer (Dunmer before they were cursed) Mages that were instrumental in stopping the Nedes from conquering Morrowind.

But there is still nothing previous to the ESO passives (to my knowledge) that says Dunmer use fire based magic more than any other.
This was something added by ZOS as flavour for the race and stuck around. Now we have flat spell damage to represent their skill in magic without feeling like they should only be using one subset of that.
There could be changes to lower the weapon damage and raise the spell damage as a better reflection of their mastery over magic rather than martial skill. However at least until Skyrim Dunmer were equally skilled at light blades and destruction magic, so an even split is well within their lore.

Also shouldn't their Ashlander passive give destruction staff XP as well, this currently only gives dual-wield XP.

Dunmer skills in previous games.
Morrowind

Skill Bonus
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10

Oblivion

+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Skyrim

+10 Destruction
+5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Light Armor, Sneak

Highlighted above and laid out in your own post you can see that the Dunmer stat for Destruction Magic surpasses their other skills. Only Altmer are their equal in that regard. Their capacity for combat and Magic are not evenly split. Redguards and Nords hold the edge as warriors while Dunmer only compete. Dunmer are Elves and thus their strength in Magic outstrips all others. Dunmer can be great warriors but I would debate if they have any warrior factions that equal the Redguard Swordsingers or Nord Companions, etc. What they do have are the Telvanni, one of the most powerful factions in Tamriel.

ToRelax · February 2019

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Dunmer in lore may compete with Redguards and Nords in physical feats but they do not have an edge there. Magic is their edge as it has always been their Major or prominent skill and spikes above any of their martial traits, rivaling only the Altmer. It is a misconception that Dunmer versatility implies equal levels of skill in both fields. Dunmer are elves, closely related to Altmer and Aldmer thus their heritage, history and culture revolves around Magic. House Telvanni, a collection of the oldest and most powerful Mages in Tamriel are rivaled only by the predominantly Altmer Psijic Order. Magic is the attribute that allowed Elves to flourish in Tamriel in competition to Men and Beasts races. In ESO we learned that it was Chimer (Dunmer before they were cursed) Mages that were instrumental in stopping the Nedes from conquering Morrowind.

Morrowind:
The dark-skinned, red-eyed Dark Elves combine powerful intellect with strong and agile physiques, producing superior warriors and sorcerers. On the battlefield, Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of swordsmen, marksmen, and war wizards.
+10 Short Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Long Blade, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Oblivion:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, the Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of the sword, the bow and destruction magic. They are resistant to fire and can summon an ancestral ghost for aid.
+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Skyrim:
Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, dark elves are noted for their stealth and magic skills.
+10 Destruction
+5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Light Armor, Sneak

They only lost their weapon bonuses in Skyrim for unknown reasons. But if you didn't play anything else I guess it's forgivable to think they didn't have any to begin with..

Your statement is a complete misconception of the point I've been trying to make in various posts. At no point did I state that Dunmer weren't skilled warriors. As your own post points out the mechanics for the games has shifted back and forth the years but the main constant for Dunmer has been their skill in Destruction Magic outshining their martial skills. You also ignore the context of their lore and history that I've pointed out above.

You said that it is a misconception that Dunmer have equal skill in magic and combat, that their magical ability has always "spiked above" any of their other martial skills. The bonuses from Morrowind and Oblivion as well as their in-game descriptions show this to be untrue - they are literally equally skilled.

Um...No they aren't.

Morrowind:

Athletics +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Long Blade +5
Marksman +5
Mysticism +5
Short Blade +10

Oblvion:

Skill Modifier
Athletics +5
Blade +10
Blunt +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Marksman +5
Mysticism +5

The only other race that matches the Dunmer in their Destruction modifier are the Altmer.

Turelus wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

As I pointed out, Dunmer have bonuses to all forms of Elemental Magic. Fire stands out for several reasons. Their home is abundant with Volcanic activity and this is reflected in their appearance, Ashen Skin and Red Eyes. Also that is how Fire Damage in ESO works, via the Destruction Staff skill line it deals more damage that the other elements that have other attributes for other uses. You cannot disregard ESO's mechanics, Dunmer are not the only ones utilize this and Dunmer Sorcs utilize shock as well.

Dunmer in lore may compete with Redguards and Nords in physical feats but they do not have an edge there. Magic is their edge as it has always been their Major or prominent skill and spikes above any of their martial traits, rivaling only the Altmer. It is a misconception that Dunmer versatility implies equal levels of skill in both fields. Dunmer are elves, closely related to Altmer and Aldmer thus their heritage, history and culture revolves around Magic. House Telvanni, a collection of the oldest and most powerful Mages in Tamriel are rivaled only by the predominantly Altmer Psijic Order. Magic is the attribute that allowed Elves to flourish in Tamriel in competition to Men and Beasts races. In ESO we learned that it was Chimer (Dunmer before they were cursed) Mages that were instrumental in stopping the Nedes from conquering Morrowind.

But there is still nothing previous to the ESO passives (to my knowledge) that says Dunmer use fire based magic more than any other.
This was something added by ZOS as flavour for the race and stuck around. Now we have flat spell damage to represent their skill in magic without feeling like they should only be using one subset of that.
There could be changes to lower the weapon damage and raise the spell damage as a better reflection of their mastery over magic rather than martial skill. However at least until Skyrim Dunmer were equally skilled at light blades and destruction magic, so an even split is well within their lore.

Also shouldn't their Ashlander passive give destruction staff XP as well, this currently only gives dual-wield XP.

Dunmer skills in previous games.
Morrowind

Skill Bonus
Long Blade +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Athletics +5
Mysticism +5
Marksman +5
Short Blade +10

Oblivion

+10 Blade and Destruction
+5 Athletics, Blunt, Light Armor, Marksman, and Mysticism

Skyrim

+10 Destruction
+5 Alchemy, Alteration, Illusion, Light Armor, Sneak

Highlighted above and laid out in your own post you can see that the Dunmer stat for Destruction Magic surpasses their other skills. Only Altmer are their equal in that regard. Their capacity for combat and Magic are not evenly split. Redguards and Nords hold the edge as warriors while Dunmer only compete. Dunmer are Elves and thus their strength in Magic outstrips all others. Dunmer can be great warriors but I would debate if they have any warrior factions that equal the Redguard Swordsingers or Nord Companions, etc. What they do have are the Telvanni, one of the most powerful factions in Tamriel.

In Morrowind they have the highest short blade skill, in Oblivion they have the highest blade skill along with Nords and Redguards. They have house Redoran which often fights with the neighboring Nords, and Redguards don't have Swordsingers.
The skill bonuses are also all progress already made that other races can earn as well, not a greater maximum potential.

Turelus · February 2019

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Highlighted above and laid out in your own post you can see that the Dunmer stat for Destruction Magic surpasses their other skills. Only Altmer are their equal in that regard. Their capacity for combat and Magic are not evenly split. Redguards and Nords hold the edge as warriors while Dunmer only compete. Dunmer are Elves and thus their strength in Magic outstrips all others. Dunmer can be great warriors but I would debate if they have any warrior factions that equal the Redguard Swordsingers or Nord Companions, etc. What they do have are the Telvanni, one of the most powerful factions in Tamriel.

No, it only surpasses blade skills in Skyrim as I said, in Morrowind and Oblivion Dunmer were as skilled with bladed weapons as they were in destruction magic.

I am not saying they need to nor should be equal to Redguard's but you keep waving away the fact that Dunmer have a history of skill in bladed weapons in the TES series.

Also this is a direct quote from your post where you bold Destruction to make your point. Yet you completely missed that in two of the trhee games short blade/bladed weapons are equal to their destruction skill.
You have the data right in your post but chose to just ignore those sections.

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Um...No they aren't.

Morrowind:

Athletics +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Long Blade +5
Marksman +5
Mysticism +5
Short Blade +10

Oblvion:

Skill Modifier
Athletics +5
Blade +10
Blunt +5
Destruction +10
Light Armor +5
Marksman +5
Mysticism +5

The only other race that matches the Dunmer in their Destruction modifier are the Altmer.

Kalle_Demos · February 2019

ToRelax wrote: »

In Morrowind they have the highest short blade skill, in Oblivion they have the highest blade skill along with Nords and Redguards. They have house Redoran which often fights with the neighboring Nords, and Redguards don't have Swordsingers.
The skill bonuses are also all progress already made that other races can earn as well, not a greater maximum potential.

Turelus wrote: »

No, it only surpasses blade skills in Skyrim as I said, in Morrowind and Oblivion Dunmer were as skilled with bladed weapons as they were in destruction magic.

I am not saying they need to nor should be equal to Redguard's but you keep waving away the fact that Dunmer have a history of skill in bladed weapons in the TES series.

Also this is a direct quote from your post where you bold Destruction to make your point. Yet you completely missed that in two of the trhee games short blade/bladed weapons are equal to their destruction skill.
You have the data right in your post but chose to just ignore those sections.

The skill bonuses are part of a greater context which is why I bring up lore. While Dunmer stats with the blade skills equal those of Nords and Redguards the attributes that support those skills do not. Both Nords and Redguards have large advantages in terms of Endurance and Strength and so in those specific games have been more efficient with those skills. Looking at game mechanics that shift over the years to draw conclusions is just one piece of the puzzle. There is a large context and a theme that stretches back years and I believe that big picture supports my points.