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Dunmer still lacks something to make them interesting (and Altmer has lost its identity)
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ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Dunmer's highest stat in the single player games has always been Speed, yet they have absolutely no bonus in that regard. They are tied with Bosmer as the two fastest races in Tamriel, but you wouldn't know it from looking at ESO.
They've also always had a special ability related to their Ancestor worship, e.g. getting protection from a dead ancestor or outright summoning an ancestor ghost.
Any of those translated into a utility or flavor passive would be very welcome.
I agree but at the same time if you want more we have to lose stuff, and quite frankly the fire stuff is too good to lose. Sure, I'd trade the fire resist for like 2% moves peed, but definitely not the burning immunity.
Possibly they'd have to lose some of their attributes, yes. Frankly I think 1750 or even 1500 would have sufficed regardless.
But as others have pointed out, the main issue isn't even so much with Dunmer themselves, but with the sustain changes to Altmer, there isn't enough distinction between magicka Altmer and Dunmer anymore. On the stamina side, Orcs now offer more than Dunmer, so while they are more distinct, the Dark Elves have fallen behind by quite a bit when they were ahead before.
By removing sustain and changing max attributes for the 3 races with weapon/spell power boosts - Altmer, Dunmer, Orsimer - these races have to be rebalanced again in some way.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.3 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »How. What? Why? Hello?
3.5k flame resist? IMMUNITY to burning?
Does bonus resistance and immunity to the status effect of the single most prevalent magic type not provide enough racial style and benefit for you?
they also have "duality" as a theme too. they are utterly unique.Edited by ESO_Nightingale on February 6, 2019 10:29AMPvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX3 -
simeion✭✭✭I don't know, being able to swap to stam and magic on the fly without race changing is pretty cool in my book. I know that is not what most people like, but i have swapped between stamDK and magDK numerous times and have multiple race changes. I like there Dunmer is.3 -
WoppaBoem✭✭✭✭✭I don't know, being able to swap to stam and magic on the fly without race changing is pretty cool in my book. I know that is not what most people like, but i have swapped between stamDK and magDK numerous times and have multiple race changes. I like there Dunmer is.
Was thinking the same thing, have all sets prepared, costs me some gold to change at the shrines but that is oke. Much fun to be able to change every now and then.Xbox EU & NA - PVP Only1 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU2 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.
Yep, and as mentioned already, Dunmer Pelinal is as effective as Orc Pelinal.
Any stand alone build that works with either Altmer or Orc will work to the same efficiency with Dunmer(200 max stat difference doesn't make any realistic difference) .
So basically there is no other race that it's passives supports such a wide build diversity.
What is your argument exactly?Edited by Lughlongarm on February 6, 2019 2:09PM1 -
WoppaBoem✭✭✭✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.
You do know you get race change tokens right? If you don't like it don't play it. I very much approve like the change, and this whole treat is not about identity because there is very strong identity in these races passives. Just say it what it is, I don't want to change I want all to stay as it is. Sorry not going to happen the race changes are real and as stated you don't like Dunmer anymore go play something else. Thank you.Xbox EU & NA - PVP Only0 -
Sinolai✭✭✭✭✭I don't know, being able to swap to stam and magic on the fly without race changing is pretty cool in my book. I know that is not what most people like, but i have swapped between stamDK and magDK numerous times and have multiple race changes. I like there Dunmer is.
They still need tovalidifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »How. What? Why? Hello?
3.5k flame resist? IMMUNITY to burning?
Does bonus resistance and immunity to the status effect of the single most prevalent magic type not provide enough racial style and benefit for you?
I would compare Dunmer to Bosmer. They have immunity to the most prevalent physical status effect (poison), resistance to poison damage, huge stamina pool and huge stamina regen. Yet they get that funny/annoying roll-dodge booster.
Where is Dunmer's roll-dodge booster? Yes, burning immunity is very useful, especially if you are pvp vampire and probably attracts some attention from PvP players. But the racials are very straightforward and offers nothing interesting to build around. In PvE the choice between Altmer and Dunmer is now how you wanna do your Roleplaying, although theoretically Altmer is still stronger even without magicka return passive (though in practice the difference is nonexcistant).
Would be nice to get something more dynamic, even if it means nerfing the resource pools back to 1250. And perhaps return Altmer's magicka sustain tool so they do not fall behind (and make it proc from guild abilities too so those without class spammable can use Ele-weapon to proc it).
EDIT:
Additionally to defend my statement, Breton and Redguard changes were justified as:
"While Bretons had been brought up to speed with our other races with our first round of changes, we still felt the story or unique element to be missing. We added a small contextual flavor bonus on their Spell Attunement passive to help highlight their ability to shrug off magical attacks."
"While we're relatively happy with the performance and identity of the Redguard race, we noticed they lacked that unique flavor or story piece in their passives that helped add a little something different. Due to their training in battle and ability to flow in combat, we decided to help them retain some of their fluidity by granting a small reduction to snare potency."
Isn't this the case with Dunmers aswell?
You can make such skewed comparisons when you ignore the facts and twist the comparisons as you are merely because you want something to be different than it is.
Dunmer has more static base damage stats than the bosmer and I am just talking about the stats benefiting a pure mag or stam build. That dodge Bosmer dodge roll you bring up gives the bosmer spell pen for a lengthy 3 seconds. Wow. I am so glad I do not have a Bosmer.
Then mention the resistance to burning being helpful in PvP but you completely ignore the fire resistance which is extremely helpful in PvE. Off the top of my head I am thinking vCoA II, vDSA, vMA, vHoF, vAS and there is more but I will stop there.
You cannot dissect and only compare pieces that but ignore the full package. Most are smart enough to see through that, Zos certainly is.
Talking about skewed comparsions, Bosmer also gains physical pen and HAS exactly same amount of poison resistance as Dunmer has fire. Poison is also very prevalent mechanic in PvE: vCoS, vMoS (last boss flowers), vDSA (Bosmer stage), vMA (Argonian behemot stage), vHoF (1st boss), vAS (Llothis), vBRP 2nd stage, vSO (heck, that Place is more toxic than LoL community). In PvP Poison is as prevalent stamina tool as Fire is for magicka. Bosmer Werewolf will also be similarly protected as Dunmer vampire.
Yes, Dunmer has more static damage but I think ZoS intended Bosmer to be regen (which Dunmer has none) and not raw damage. I am also suggesting nerfs to Dunmers damage to make room for new passives.
I also agree that Bosmer is not quite ready yet either (and neither is Altmer or Imperial but this is not the topic for those [well, maybe a little bit Altmer, since they are the yellow burning Dunmers now]). Atleast the 1500 penetration bonus could be permanent and not only when you dodge. Their 3rd passive is currently completely PvP focused and not much use in PvE.Edited by Sinolai on February 6, 2019 2:16PM0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.
You do know you get race change tokens right? If you don't like it don't play it. I very much approve like the change, and this whole treat is not about identity because there is very strong identity in these races passives. Just say it what it is, I don't want to change I want all to stay as it is. Sorry not going to happen the race changes are real and as stated you don't like Dunmer anymore go play something else. Thank you.
watLughlongarm wrote: »Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.
Yep, and as mentioned already, Dunmer Pelinal is as effective as Orc Pelinal.
Any stand alone build that works with either Altmer or Orc will work to the same efficiency with Dunmer(200 max stat difference doesn't make any realistic difference) .
So basically there is no other race that it's passives supports such a wide build diversity.
What is your argument exactly?
That is what I stated and you commented on it. I then asked you what the point of your comment was...DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'm very concerned about Dunmers because apparantly ZOS is unwilling to give them any race identity back. Nobody asked for Dunmer becoming a dps stam race wtf. They won't have a niche in which they don't get outperformed by something else and this sucks, period.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.2 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.
You do know you get race change tokens right? If you don't like it don't play it. I very much approve like the change, and this whole treat is not about identity because there is very strong identity in these races passives. Just say it what it is, I don't want to change I want all to stay as it is. Sorry not going to happen the race changes are real and as stated you don't like Dunmer anymore go play something else. Thank you.
watLughlongarm wrote: »Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.
Yep, and as mentioned already, Dunmer Pelinal is as effective as Orc Pelinal.
Any stand alone build that works with either Altmer or Orc will work to the same efficiency with Dunmer(200 max stat difference doesn't make any realistic difference) .
So basically there is no other race that it's passives supports such a wide build diversity.
What is your argument exactly?
That is what I stated and you commented on it. I then asked you what the point of your comment was...
My original comment was quite clear. If you want to take full advantage of all the Dunmer's passives to it's maximum potential, you will want to craft an hybrid build without Pelinal. This is something Dunmer can do better than any other race and its one of the things that makes them unique. The second post emphasized that Dunmers are not sacrificing for this uniqueness anything and can compete with any 'specialize' build or hybrid Pelinal build.Edited by Lughlongarm on February 6, 2019 2:52PM0 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think I have concluded that people will ONLY consider fire damage increase as "race identity".
Nothing else, no matter how unique or how interesting, or how fitting with the lore, will satisfy them.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade3 -
WoppaBoem✭✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »I'm very concerned about Dunmers because apparantly ZOS is unwilling to give them any race identity back. Nobody asked for Dunmer becoming a dps stam race wtf. They won't have a niche in which they don't get outperformed by something else and this sucks, period.
There are more meta's than the beloved magblade for PVE. One of them is a magdk in PVP with sword and board (not using it myself the light attacks suck maybe now not so much anymore). All those builds can finally get identiy as DK mag or stam is about standing your ground. The mag weapons don't work for this so S&B. Plus being able to swap between a magdk or stamdk is awesome. Will also change my magblade to a Cat so I finally can do stam and mag on 1 character. Pretty awesome changes and as for Dunmer being able to fight etherway is some kick ass identity.Xbox EU & NA - PVP Only0 -
WoppaBoem✭✭✭✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.
You do know you get race change tokens right? If you don't like it don't play it. I very much approve like the change, and this whole treat is not about identity because there is very strong identity in these races passives. Just say it what it is, I don't want to change I want all to stay as it is. Sorry not going to happen the race changes are real and as stated you don't like Dunmer anymore go play something else. Thank you.
watLughlongarm wrote: »Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.
Yep, and as mentioned already, Dunmer Pelinal is as effective as Orc Pelinal.
Any stand alone build that works with either Altmer or Orc will work to the same efficiency with Dunmer(200 max stat difference doesn't make any realistic difference) .
So basically there is no other race that it's passives supports such a wide build diversity.
What is your argument exactly?
That is what I stated and you commented on it. I then asked you what the point of your comment was...
wat?Xbox EU & NA - PVP Only0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.
You do know you get race change tokens right? If you don't like it don't play it. I very much approve like the change, and this whole treat is not about identity because there is very strong identity in these races passives. Just say it what it is, I don't want to change I want all to stay as it is. Sorry not going to happen the race changes are real and as stated you don't like Dunmer anymore go play something else. Thank you.
watLughlongarm wrote: »Lughlongarm wrote: »Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
[...]
This is a false, Dunmer are as good as anyone using Pelinal's, they just don't get as much benefit from the set itself as Orcs or Altmer might. It wouldn't help Dunmer Pelinal's builds in any way if they only had weapon damage in their racial passives, it would just be a nerf to hybrids not using it.
The whole idea of getting such a nice boon of having both spell an weapon damage, is to try to take advantage of different hybrid sets. Innate Axiom, Shacklebreaker, Mechanical Acuity etc...
Even if that was the "whole idea", which I am sure it was not, what of it? Intent doesn't change what the passive actually does for any build.
Yep, and as mentioned already, Dunmer Pelinal is as effective as Orc Pelinal.
Any stand alone build that works with either Altmer or Orc will work to the same efficiency with Dunmer(200 max stat difference doesn't make any realistic difference) .
So basically there is no other race that it's passives supports such a wide build diversity.
What is your argument exactly?
That is what I stated and you commented on it. I then asked you what the point of your comment was...
My original comment was quite clear. If you want to take full advantage of all the Dunmer's passives to it's maximum potential, you will want to craft an hybrid build without Pelinal. This is something Dunmer can do better than any other race and its one of the things that makes them unique. The second post emphasized that Dunmers are not sacrificing for this uniqueness anything and can compete with any 'specialize' build or hybrid Pelinal build.
We are in agreement then.
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
Not really. That was the identity of the class from the fist day. It was turned into a magicka class after 1.6 and it was never addressed until now.
To me, Dunmer should be able to play either, Magicka or stamina with similar proficency... what you are asking is to pigeonhole the race, again, into one spec, and that's wrong. Dunmer is not an Altmer with flame damage.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
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I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
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Used the wrong method with the wrong technique5 -
Sinolai✭✭✭✭✭Twohothardware wrote: »Dunmer is the hybrid race capable of performing well in dps as stamina or magicka and they have an affinity to resist fire damage. That's their identity and they don't need anything else. With the buff today they get nearly the same bonus as the 5th Trait from Shacklebreaker along with 258 weapon and spell damage.
That is probably what ZoS has been after aswell..... unfortunately hybrid builds do not work well due to the way how damage comes from max resource and how hard sustaining a hybrid is - especially with a race that has no sustain passives. Ironically, since Dunmer stats are divided equally to Mag and Stam, Weapon and Spell Damage, they are also the worst possible users for Pelinals, which was suppised to be the hybrid set.
Not really. That was the identity of the class from the fist day. It was turned into a magicka class after 1.6 and it was never addressed until now.
To me, Dunmer should be able to play either, Magicka or stamina with similar proficency... what you are asking is to pigeonhole the race, again, into one spec, and that's wrong. Dunmer is not an Altmer with flame damage.
Not necessarily pigeonholed. None of the suggestions I listed is pigeon holing Dunmer to magicka. All of them are equally effective with stamina Dunmer too. I am trying to separate Magicka Dunmers (which most Dunmers in live currently play) from Magicka Altmer. Although since Dunmer is currently strong magicka DD race, live servers are currently full of MagDD Dunmers. They will not be happy if their BiS MagDunmer turns into BiS StamDunmer so I would give MagDunmers priority over Stamina. Hopefully we can still give them something that works for both.Edited by Sinolai on February 6, 2019 4:17PM1 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457727/lowest-resource-restore-belongs-to-the-dunmer#latest
Here is the link to my proposed solution for this. Altmer should have magicka sustain based off of receiving magic damage, dunmer should have lowest resource restore for dealing damage.0 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457727/lowest-resource-restore-belongs-to-the-dunmer#latest
Here is the link to my proposed solution for this. Altmer should have magicka sustain based off of receiving magic damage, dunmer should have lowest resource restore for dealing damage.
Where is the trade-off on dunmer? Their passives are already over the roof, what will you cut out?0 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457727/lowest-resource-restore-belongs-to-the-dunmer#latest
Here is the link to my proposed solution for this. Altmer should have magicka sustain based off of receiving magic damage, dunmer should have lowest resource restore for dealing damage.
Where is the trade-off on dunmer? Their passives are already over the roof, what will you cut out?
Nevermind, saw in link.1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dunmers lack something really unique.
2310 Fire resist while nice because it synergies with the status effect immunity is weaker than straight spell resists. I feel like people miss this some how. They have the same mitigation, but fire is only 1 element while spell is equal to 4. Fire IS the most prominent, but it's still rendered useless with every other element. It's not strong enough.
It's also not exceptional for a hybrid build because it feels like you waste 1 of the +dmg passives due to the way Pelinal's Aptitude behaves, which is best used with stacking 1 type of dmg. I hope they didn't weigh the dmg passive in their SB calculation so strongly. Double resources I understand because you can use that ANYWHERE, even in pve. Double dmg is less useful.
Sets and enchants in the game do not stack both weapon/spell dmg very well so it's pointless to try doing it without Pelinal's. Upping your max resources to a reasonable level for a hybrid was the problem and the double max resources from Dunmer help with that.
They're VERY good as a race you can use to swap between mag DD or sta DD whenever you want, but they don't feel like a good "hybrid" race in the context of the game's sets and mechanics. Hybrids don't work well for pve and I don't think that was their intention. They succeeded in making a race good for both mag/sta DD you can swap between.
They fixed the disparity between Altmer vs Dunmer and I always thought Altmer was overtuned for straight mag DD making it really difficult to try and make Dunmer more powerful comparatively without buffing the sta DD side of things too much which was already in a good place.
However I'd drop the max resources to 1700, up the fire resist to 3k and add something unique to support their agility nature. Nothing about their racial passives shows their affinity for combat prowess regarding agility.
My suggestion:- 1850 1700 mag/sta
- 2310 3k fire resist and status effect immunity
- 258 spell/weapon dmg
- 10% dodge roll cost reduction OR 10% sprint cost reduction OR +5% movement speed when taking OR doing dmg. Something small, but useful to both mag/sta for agility sake.
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twing1_✭✭✭✭Marshall1289 wrote: »Dunmers lack something really unique.
2310 Fire resist while nice because it synergies with the status effect immunity is weaker than straight spell resists. I feel like people miss this some how. They have the same mitigation, but fire is only 1 element while spell is equal to 4. Fire IS the most prominent, but it's still rendered useless with every other element. It's not strong enough.
It's also not exceptional for a hybrid build because it feels like you waste 1 of the +dmg passives due to the way Pelinal's Aptitude behaves, which is best used with stacking 1 type of dmg. I hope they didn't weigh the dmg passive in their SB calculation so strongly. Double resources I understand because you can use that ANYWHERE, even in pve. Double dmg is less useful.
Sets and enchants in the game do not stack both weapon/spell dmg very well so it's pointless to try doing it without Pelinal's. Upping your max resources to a reasonable level for a hybrid was the problem and the double max resources from Dunmer help with that.
They're VERY good as a race you can use to swap between mag DD or sta DD whenever you want, but they don't feel like a good "hybrid" race in the context of the game's sets and mechanics. Hybrids don't work well for pve and I don't think that was their intention. They succeeded in making a race good for both mag/sta DD you can swap between.
They fixed the disparity between Altmer vs Dunmer and I always thought Altmer was overtuned for straight mag DD making it really difficult to try and make Dunmer more powerful comparatively without buffing the sta DD side of things too much which was already in a good place.
However I'd drop the max resources to 1700, up the fire resist to 3k and add something unique to support their agility nature. Nothing about their racial passives shows their affinity for combat prowess regarding agility.
My suggestion:- 1850 1700 mag/sta
- 2310 3k fire resist and status effect immunity
- 258 spell/weapon dmg
- 10% dodge roll cost reduction OR 10% sprint cost reduction OR +5% movement speed when taking OR doing dmg. Something small, but useful to both mag/sta for agility sake.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/457727/lowest-resource-restore-belongs-to-the-dunmer#latest
Completely agree with you. My proposal in this link. Check it out, lmk what u thinkEdited by twing1_ on February 6, 2019 7:18PM1 -
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kalle_Demos wrote: »Redguards and Nords are physically superior and better warriors. This is not up for debate in this fictional context but from an objective POV you are correct (I'm of the opinion that the Nords should have never been able to challenge the established and more advanced Falmer).Can a Dunmer that dedicate their long life to physical means of fighting and be better? Sure. In the same vein that Redguards and Nords CAN become great Mages. Intelligence, in the Elder Scrolls series, is an attribute that has always emphasized one's magical capacity. Dunmer longevity is also associated with their affinity for Magic which is their Elven heritage as with the Altmer. As I pointed out, Dunmer skill with Destruction Magic spikes higher than their physical attributes. A Dunmer, hundreds of years old and still in their prime, will find much more use of their Master level Destruction Spells than with any blade.
I agree, for the most part. The only slight disagreement I have is with the first sentence about Redguards and Nords being physically superior.
In all of the previous ES games, Dunmer had bonuses to speed and agility. Compared to Redguards, they were just as durable (although Redguards have the edge in physical strength), and Nords have the advantage in resilience as well as strength.
This doesn't equate to Dunmer being physically inferior. It means they will utilize personal combat systems that emphasize their natural advantage with speed and agility. Remember, they usually get bonuses to dual wielding, so they're very familiar with in-your-face combat at a cultural level, same as Redguards and Nords.
It's like being on a wrestling mat, to continue with my previous example (I do BJJ, so forgive me if I overuse the analogy). You're going to see different body types, each with its advantages and disadvantages. Most people will quickly learn to operate within that context. A Redguard vs a Dunmer vs a Nord would be no different. Since there's only so many ways to wrestle or kickbox, these three would end up doing the same thing, while making adjustments that allowed them to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. It really would come down to individual drive and the quality of their training, which I think fits the lore perfectly, both from a world-building perspective, as well as a game mechanic.
Which brings me back to the longevity thing, and why I think the Dunmer would be able to adjust quite well for any edge in strength the Nords or Redguards might have. If you've ever trained, you know that recovery time is CRITICAL. I'm 44, and I've been training for almost a year and a half. Almost all of my training partners are half my age. I can keep up just fine while we're working out. The difference is that I'm paying for it HARD the next day, while they're recharged and ready to go again. So, they can train more frequently just as a function of age, which means their technical skill ends up leaving mine in the dirt. Same with the Dunmer (or any elven race, really). A 50-year-old Dark Elf is still in his/her prime, while a 50-year-old Redguard is over the hill.
Which brings me to your point about Dunmer culture being suffused with Magicka. I know Destruction is their forte, but there's a LOT of Restoration floating around, which means that warriors are a lot less likely to be sidelined due to training mishaps. As opposed to Nord culture (where magic is a bit more rare) and Redguard culture (where magic is viewed with outright hostility).
Does that make sense?
Edited by milesrodneymcneely2_ESO on February 6, 2019 7:23PM2 -
The_Last_Titan✭✭✭Would be nice to get something more dynamic, even if it means nerfing the resource pools back to 1250. And perhaps return Altmer's magicka sustain tool so they do not fall behind (and make it proc from guild abilities too so those without class spammable can use Ele-weapon to proc it).
i would be for reducing it back to 1250 and giving them like 1500 phys/spell penetration for 3 seconds after light/heavy attack with a 5-6 sec cooldown or something, could be cool for people that want to go damage proc sets like caluurion's, skoria, viper, etcEdited by The_Last_Titan on February 6, 2019 7:41PM1 -
Sinolai✭✭✭✭✭The_Last_Titan wrote: »Would be nice to get something more dynamic, even if it means nerfing the resource pools back to 1250. And perhaps return Altmer's magicka sustain tool so they do not fall behind (and make it proc from guild abilities too so those without class spammable can use Ele-weapon to proc it).
i would be for reducing it back to 1250 and giving them like 1500 phys/spell penetration for 3 seconds after light/heavy attack with a 5-6 sec cooldown or something, could be cool for people that want to go damage proc sets like caluurion's, skoria, viper, etc
Wouldnt be very useful in PvE though since you dont want your penetration to jump too much during the fight.0 -
The_Last_Titan✭✭✭why not? i mean 1500's not much for over penetrating bosses, i dont know what the total perfect raid pen scenario tho
maybe 1k penetration without a cooldown, but then again it would be easier to just give the stat without having the need for it to activate :PEdited by The_Last_Titan on February 6, 2019 9:29PM0 -
Kesstryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I feel like they are trying to give to Dunmer what was traditionally an Imperial identity in traditional Elder Scrolls games, the ability to play any role. ESO is flipping the traditional lore on its head.HEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.1 -
The_Last_Titan✭✭✭I feel like they are trying to give to Dunmer what was traditionally an Imperial identity in traditional Elder Scrolls games, the ability to play any role. ESO is flipping the traditional lore on its head.
yeah i have my own ideas for imperial, in another thread wanted something like
2500k health
500/500/500 red diamond
6% reduces cost of all abilities/block/bash
maybe 2k health, 500mag, 500 stam, help the dps a little bit without having to bump all resources reduction* to 7% tying with bretonEdited by The_Last_Titan on February 6, 2019 9:37PM1