Stam DK - how about a stam morph for Lava Whip?

BadShogun · January 2019

I don't understand the reasoning behind some classes having spammable class abilities for any play style while others don't. And, the classes that don't have spammable class abilities do not perform as well as those that do.

Stam DK could use a spammable class ability that's MADE for it. NOT spamming venomous claw, which is a dot!

zvavi · January 2019

Psijic order tree line gives you the answer for that.i would actually like an execute for stamsorcs and dks, I think that would be awesome.

BadShogun · January 2019

zvavi wrote: »

Psijic order tree line gives you the answer for that.i would actually like an execute for stamsorcs and dks, I think that would be awesome.

Psijic order skills aren't class abilities. This is specifically about a class ability that's MADE to be the spammable on Stam DK.

And yes, an execute is badly needed.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

agree stamDK needs a Class spammable, as does sorcs.

BUt they cannot touch either morph of Whip, since both Morphs are widely used in PVE or PVP.
However they could rework the Stonefist skill, which is not a comonly used in PVE nor PVP as whip is, and rework this to a Spammable stamnia skill.
maybe make a Physical and a Poison DMG morph

NobleX35 · January 2019

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

agree stamDK needs a Class spammable, as does sorcs.

BUt they cannot touch either morph of Whip, since both Morphs are widely used in PVE or PVP.
However they could rework the Stonefist skill, which is not a comonly used in PVE nor PVP as whip is, and rework this to a Spammable stamnia skill.
maybe make a Physical and a Poison DMG morph

Stonefist would not work as a spammable because of the Helping Hands passive. The skill would have to cost too much to compensate for the fact that you would return stamina with every cast.

Aedrion · January 2019

It's on the same list unique new morphs for Mage Fury for Stamsorcs and Surprize attack for magblades.
Estimated time 3 years.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

NobleX35 wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

agree stamDK needs a Class spammable, as does sorcs.

BUt they cannot touch either morph of Whip, since both Morphs are widely used in PVE or PVP.
However they could rework the Stonefist skill, which is not a comonly used in PVE nor PVP as whip is, and rework this to a Spammable stamnia skill.
maybe make a Physical and a Poison DMG morph

Stonefist would not work as a spammable because of the Helping Hands passive. The skill would have to cost too much to compensate for the fact that you would return stamina with every cast.

well atm some ppl spam Claw, which only costs 700 Stam...so if the cost is on a fair lvl then it woul dbe sustainable I guess

Juhasow · January 2019

Beating the dead horse meme incoming.

SaintSubwayy · January 2019

Juhasow wrote: »

Beating the dead horse meme incoming.

bring it on!

Juhasow · January 2019

Juhasow · January 2019

Also this
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373570/claw-of-the-mad-god-stamina-dk-pve-dd-build-50k-selfbuffed-murkmire-pts/p1
Venomous claw can be easily used as spammable.

BadShogun · January 2019

Juhasow wrote: »

Also this
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373570/claw-of-the-mad-god-stamina-dk-pve-dd-build-50k-selfbuffed-murkmire-pts/p1
Venomous claw can be easily used as spammable.

Did you read my OP? I specifically said NOT SPAMMING VENEMOUS CLAW

It's a DOT!

We need a direct damage CLASS spammable

not a dot
not a weapon ability

The stamina playstyle for DK's feels like a poorly implemented afterthought as is and a single class spammable that's not a dot would help tremendously.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Juhasow , true, but it's a crutch that loses the trailing, most damaging ticks of the Claw. The ultra low cost is basically its only advantage over all the other spammables.

I could get behind a spammable from Earthen Heart, and not because of Helping Hands (that can be adjusted as needed after all), but because it would also help sDK damage dealers bring their 'group contribution' buff into play - Minor Brutality from Mountain Blessing. What an awesome idea it was, to place a group buff that buffs stamina into magicka-only support skill line with nothing in it stamina DDs can use. (Yes, some run Igneous, but for one, it's hard to sustain alongside with FoO, and for another, it breaks up rotation but gives precisely no personal advantage to the DD who's using it - Minor Brutality isn't worth the extra skill slot, magicka and GCD spent casting it, so, you guessed it, when all said and done we need DK tank for one more buff.)

Juhasow · January 2019

BadShogun wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Also this
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373570/claw-of-the-mad-god-stamina-dk-pve-dd-build-50k-selfbuffed-murkmire-pts/p1
Venomous claw can be easily used as spammable.

Did you read my OP? I specifically said NOT SPAMMING VENEMOUS CLAW

It's a DOT!

We need a direct damage CLASS spammable

not a dot
not a weapon ability

The stamina playstyle for DK's feels like a poorly implemented afterthought as is and a single class spammable that's not a dot would help tremendously.

Need for what ? You say "we need it" , "It have to be direct damage" but need for what and why it has to be direct dmg ? For the record most of the dmg part from claw ewhen You use is as spammable IS direct dmg because initial dmg from it is direct dmg. Stam dk is completly fine as it is imo and when someone proves it people just come with arguments like the ones You provided which is basically "It's bad because it's bad and I dont want it". How about play a little with it and them come back with constructive feedback ?

BadShogun · January 2019

Juhasow wrote: »

Need for what ? You say "we need it" , "It have to be direct damage" but need for what and why it has to be direct dmg ? For the record most of the dmg part from claw ewhen You use is as spammable IS direct dmg because initial dmg from it is direct dmg. Stam dk is completly fine as it is imo and when someone proves it people just come with arguments like the ones You provided which is basically "It's bad because it's bad and I dont want it". How about play a little with it and them come back with constructive feedback ?

You really aren't offering anything here except telling me that I'm inexperienced and to be happy with the status quo.

Can you tell me why most other stamina classes have a real direct damage spammable, while stamdk relies on either a weapon ability or an ability that is a dot?

If you are running rotation using venemous claw as spammable, you will always cut off the last 1-2 ticks of it, because recasting endless hail assuming you have vMA bow is higher priority.

Can you refute this?

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Juhasow , I brought a couple of things - no response to me? Loss of damage from strongest ST DoT in the box (because Claw damage ramps up towards the end, overcasting it reduces overall damage done), lackluster spammable Claw makes (it has no associated effects like other spammables do), lack of skills to let sDK bring Minor Brutality to the group (without sacrificing own damage).

md3788 · January 2019

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

agree stamDK needs a Class spammable, as does sorcs.

BUt they cannot touch either morph of Whip, since both Morphs are widely used in PVE or PVP.
However they could rework the Stonefist skill, which is not a comonly used in PVE nor PVP as whip is, and rework this to a Spammable stamnia skill.
maybe make a Physical and a Poison DMG morph

Or just merge molten whip and lava whip since molten whip really doesn't add that much. Base skill molten whip. Choose to morph to Flame Lash or Stamina based whip. Everyone wins.

BadShogun · January 2019

md3788 wrote: »

Or just merge molten whip and lava whip since molten whip really doesn't add that much. Base skill molten whip. Choose to morph to Flame Lash or Stamina based whip. Everyone wins.

100%

Haquor · January 2019

BadShogun wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Also this
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373570/claw-of-the-mad-god-stamina-dk-pve-dd-build-50k-selfbuffed-murkmire-pts/p1
Venomous claw can be easily used as spammable.

Did you read my OP? I specifically said NOT SPAMMING VENEMOUS CLAW

It's a DOT!

We need a direct damage CLASS spammable

not a dot
not a weapon ability

The stamina playstyle for DK's feels like a poorly implemented afterthought as is and a single class spammable that's not a dot would help tremendously.

Not sure if you were around at launch... but every class stamina playstyle felt lkke a poorly implemented afterthought.

BadShogun · January 2019

Haquor wrote: »

Not sure if you were around at launch... but every class stamina playstyle felt lkke a poorly implemented afterthought.

I was not around at launch, and the fact that it still feels that way is really disappointing.

Juhasow · January 2019

BadShogun wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Need for what ? You say "we need it" , "It have to be direct damage" but need for what and why it has to be direct dmg ? For the record most of the dmg part from claw ewhen You use is as spammable IS direct dmg because initial dmg from it is direct dmg. Stam dk is completly fine as it is imo and when someone proves it people just come with arguments like the ones You provided which is basically "It's bad because it's bad and I dont want it". How about play a little with it and them come back with constructive feedback ?

You really aren't offering anything here except telling me that I'm inexperienced and to be happy with the status quo.

Can you tell me why most other stamina classes have a real direct damage spammable, while stamdk relies on either a weapon ability or an ability that is a dot?

If you are running rotation using venemous claw as spammable, you will always cut off the last 1-2 ticks of it, because recasting endless hail assuming you have vMA bow is higher priority.

Can you refute this?

Umm You do realize that most of the stamina classes actually do not have spammable instant cast direct dmg ability ? Stamplar have jabs (chanelled DoT) , sorc also do not have spammable at all not so yeah maybe 1st check Your informations instead of bringing up fake ones. The only classes that have real direct dmg instant cast spammables are stambalde and stamwarden. Stam Dk with claw spam from that point of view is actually in a good spot considering how cheap claw is and the fact initial part is direct dmg as I already said.

Also I think You do not understand how claw and math works here. People complain that they'll loose that insane DoT dmg from claw if they'll use it as spammable when in fact DoT portion of claw dmg is basically the same when You spam it or just use as DoT because of intervals between DoT ticks. When You use claw as spammable You get more ticks of claw DoT because You get tick each 0,9 sec when normally You would get tick each 2 seconds so yeah You wont get that increased dmg per tick on each tick but You will get more ticks in total which basically makes it almost even and this is why DPS with claw is basically the same or sometimes even better then with regular spammables due to insane sustain it provides and barely existant loss of claw DoT part of DPS. Yeah You'll loose that last most damaging tick of claw dmg but You'll get 3-4 more initial ticks. Go on just do the test for Yourself. First spam claw like crazy for 1 minute and check what's Your DoT DPS portion and then use claw each 10 seconds and compare results. But You dont have to belive me. Belive the numbers. here I have 2 tests , in both I had the same gear and stats difference is in 1st I was spamming venomous claw for 2 minutes straight and in 2nd I was letting it run and I was refreshing it every 10 seconds to get maximum dmg tick from DoT. Results may suprise You

Here are the numbers when You let claw do full DoT dmg , as You can see DoT DPS part is ~1,2k

And here are the numbers when You spam claw , with the same setup DoT DPS is close to 1,7k which is over 40% more dps

Suprised ? Also it's worth to mention that with claw spam You get better DPS from poisined status effect.

Juhasow · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Juhasow , I brought a couple of things - no response to me? Loss of damage from strongest ST DoT in the box (because Claw damage ramps up towards the end, overcasting it reduces overall damage done), lackluster spammable Claw makes (it has no associated effects like other spammables do), lack of skills to let sDK bring Minor Brutality to the group (without sacrificing own damage).

In the post above I explained that "lower DoT DPS" theory is just a myth made by people who were not putting enough attention to math in ground school. Theory that overcasting claw causes massive loss of its DoT dmg is a lie. Because You refresh ability faster when You use it as spammable You get more ticks in total because normally ticks would occur every 2 seconds but when You spam it ticks will occur every 0,9 seconds with every refreshing of ability. Smaller ticks but more frequent. Spamming claw have additional associated effects. First of all You have increased chance to apply poisoned status effect which on dk deals 50% more dmg through passive and direct dmg portion of claw have 10% chance to proc it while DoT only have 2% to proc it. Initial tick of claw also applies snare through one of dk passives. The most noticable "additional feature" claw have as spammable is insanely low cost though which many people seems to ignore.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Juhasow , that's a totally flawed reasoning.

Spammable, by definition, is the direct damage instant cast ability you cast when you already have all your dots running. So once you have Hail, PI, Caltrops, Rending, Trap, Claw, FoO running, you have to fill your space with something, be it a real spammable or Claw. You argue that by using Claw you get it "tick" faster than it was intended to be, but it's a fallacy: by using another spammable, you would have had "ticks" of that spammable every 0.9 seconds, and ticks of your Claw (which would have been growing in damage as per Claw tooltip. So let's not try to pull a fast one here, because comparison is between spamming a spammable while Claw is running, and spamming Claw while losing chunk of the damage it's ought to produce after a single cast.

Juhasow · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Juhasow , that's a totally flawed reasoning.

Spammable, by definition, is the direct damage instant cast ability you cast when you already have all your dots running. So once you have Hail, PI, Caltrops, Rending, Trap, Claw, FoO running, you have to fill your space with something, be it a real spammable or Claw. You argue that by using Claw you get it "tick" faster than it was intended to be, but it's a fallacy: by using another spammable, you would have had "ticks" of that spammable every 0.9 seconds, and ticks of your Claw (which would have been growing in damage as per Claw tooltip. So let's not try to pull a fast one here, because comparison is between spamming a spammable while Claw is running, and spamming Claw while losing chunk of the damage it's ought to produce after a single cast.

Look at the numbers in pasres I posted. With claw as spammable I got 40% more DoT DPS. This is perfect logic You simply cannot grasp. When You use claw as spammable Your DoT DPS is higher so it basically compensates for claw having lower base direct dmg then other spammables and You get basically same DPS from DoT. It's basically same as You would use some other spammable that have 40-50% higher tooltip then claw and use claw every 10 seconds but the difference is in that case Your sustain would be lower. Like I said many people seems to extremly underestimate that insanely low cost of claw that may play key part in stam DK DPS setups in next update. With current racial changes stam dks will be able to choose orc or dunmer and have better sustain and damage then people who choosed wood elfs or redgard on different classes.

BadShogun · January 2019

@Juhasow is it wrong to ask for a better class design? Even if what you say about claw dot doing more damage when you use it as spammable, it's poor design.

You seem to be determined to defend a poor class design.

Your tone also sounds quite angry. Is there a reason for that?

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Juhasow , that's the point. Your test's logic is invalid, because alternatives are: 1) using Claw and a spammable, and 2) using Claw as spammable. When you're using Claw as spammable, you're effectively not running a DoT, you're simply not letting it actually begin and start ticking. In rotation, you have a choice: to have Claw tick alongside with your actual spammable (so you have ticks of Claw DoT and, every second, ticks of spammable), and spamming Claw, which actually gives you (weaker) hits every 1s, but without extra DoT running (because you're preventing Claw to run as a DoT, and increase in damage). You don't seem to understand how rotation works.

Juhasow · January 2019

@John_Falstaff I think You dont understand how math works. Like I said when You use claw as spammable Your DoT DPS is higher thus it compensates for potential loss You get if You would use other ability as spammablle. Lets say direct dmg from claw is X and DoT is Y and other spammable dmg is Z and Z > X. So when You use claw normally You get Y DPS from DoT but when You use claw as spammable You get 1,4 Y DoT dmg. So basically using claw as spammable is the same as You would use other spammable ability with Z dmg and use claw every 10 seconds where Z can be up to 40-50% higher then claw X direct dmg portion. This is why rotation with claw barely loose any DPS or it's even the same or better when compared to rotation with different spammable abilities as replacement while we'll consider also a fact claw overall DPS is just small part of general DPS and same goes for other spammables. Also stop ignoring claw cost , it's very important factor.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Juhasow , I'm very good at math, thank you very much. Let me explain it differently: in the tests above, you compared two situations - in one, you've been continuously spamming Claw. In another, you've been casting claw every 9 seconds and was letting it run out. But here comes the flaw: the damage Claw was producing during your second test is lower, but this damage Claw gave you for one cast and 700 stamina, and during 8 more GCDs you've been doing nothing. In first test, it's the damage Claw gave for nine casts and 6300 stamina.

Now you can see why the comparison is flawed. When you use Claw normally, as a DoT, you have spare GCDs during which you use... you guessed it right, a spammable. So basically, correct version of your test would be: 9 casts of Claw, versus 1 cast of Claw and 8 casts of another spammable while Claw is running - because not using Claw as a spammable leaves GCDs for actual spammable. So you get everything Claw is ought to deliver as a DoT, and eight instances of damage from the spammable you now can cast. Considering that other spammables are stronger than Claw (both direct and first dot tick combined - Masel compared with Crushing Weapon), running Claw alongside with actual spammable will yield more damage.

So carrying that to real situation, suppose you have four Claw casts in rotation - three more than you had to have if you were using it as a DoT. It gives you: three more instances of damage from Claw's summed initial hit and first tick. It takes away from you: about two Claw DoT ticks and three GCDs. So you see, if you chose to cast Claw and then thrice Crushing Weapon, then result would have been: you replace three instances of Claw damage with (stronger) Crushing Weapon damage, and gain two extra trailing (most damaging) ticks from the Claw. It comes without saying that you have a net gain by it, because you have extra ticks of Claw ticking while you're generating the "padding" of Crushing Weapon.

Cost is another matter; I did mention that one and only benefit of the Claw is its laughable cost. But it doesn't mean that using it as a spammable is a pure damage gain.

Juhasow · January 2019

@John_Falstaff still it's Your logic that is flawed. If You want to compare numbers of usages of abilities then You also have to compare overall DPS I achieved in both parses from claw. In 1st parse when I was just refreshing claw it deal 1,4k DPS in 2nd parse when I was spamming it it dealt 5k so it's basically the same as I would use claw as a DoT and other spammable that would do 3,6k DPS for the extremly low cost of 6300 stamina for 9 uses. Facts are that currently You're doing basically similar or even better DPS when You use claw then when You use other spammables because it deals slightly less dmg but allows for way better sustain. It'll even get better with new update due to race changes and dual wield enchantments nerf. Claw is totally fine as spammable since as I said already at the end of the day DPS portion of spammable ability is just small part of overal DPS where sustain is key part of it.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Juhasow , that is the whole point, you see. You have compared damage of Claw DoT per second, with damage of Claw spam per second. But it's not a valid comparison, because the test "what damage per second can I get if I won't use Claw as a spammable?" includes: casting Claw, and making use of eight GCDs you got by not using Claw as a spammable (instead letting it run free). So no, your second test ignores the fact that using Claw as a DoT implies both Claw ticks, and spammable casts.

Again, cost is low, but that's the gist. If you have spare sustain, using better spammable (alongside with extra good DoT which is Claw) is a good way to exchange that sustain for more damage. And added niceties - healing or full uptime on Major Fracture - make spammable even better.

Juhasow · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Juhasow , that is the whole point, you see. You have compared damage of Claw DoT per second, with damage of Claw spam per second. But it's not a valid comparison, because the test "what damage per second can I get if I won't use Claw as a spammable?" includes: casting Claw, and making use of eight GCDs you got by not using Claw as a spammable (instead letting it run free). So no, your second test ignores the fact that using Claw as a DoT implies both Claw ticks, and spammable casts.

Again, cost is low, but that's the gist. If you have spare sustain, using better spammable (alongside with extra good DoT which is Claw) is a good way to exchange that sustain for more damage. And added niceties - healing or full uptime on Major Fracture - make spammable even better.

I have compared DPS of claw DoT when claw is spammed vs DPS of claw DoT when claw is refreshed every 10 seconds. Initially You and other people were claiming that using claw as spammable lowers DPS from the DoT portion of it because You wont get that sweet final ticks. I proved it's wrong so then You've changed and twisted Your argumentation to not make fool out of Yourself.