usmcjdking wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

So unlike many posters, I actually main 2h and/or Wrecking Blow on more than half of my stam DPS characters. Wrecking Blow/Dizzy is satisfying to cast, land and otherwise observe. It's a flashy skill and should remain flashy. Changes to animation shouldn't be made in an effort to close a gap in damage performance - you rob Uppercut of it's allure for many players when your main issue is that it is simply not mathematically strong enough and you attempt to change that by changing the animation.

If the core problem in PVE is the overall damage loss, then address the damage loss by increasing the potency of the skill; not by reworking and possibly ruining one of the better ESO animations.

You interpret this as if it was purely about damage and both morphs - It‘s not. You keep Dizzying Swing as it is and hopefully they rework the targeting of the ability. They give more flexibility to 2h users by makeing Wrecking Blow the instant cast. How do you rob anybody of anything here? Because you rework a nonsensical morph that doesn‘t synergize with it‘s special component (Empower) all to well, or because you’d allow a new, additional playstyle on the same ol‘ weapon line?

I don't see the point in streamlining all the spammables into instant casts. Why would I use WB over throw chicken on my stam warden? Why use it over SA on my Stamblade? Why use it over crushing weapon? The skill would likely get heavily nerfed in both damage and utility if it was made an instant cast, and I'm not seeing the actual value behind doing that. This game has more than enough high volume, low damage spammables, and we don't need to rob one of the last remaining low volume, high damage skills in PVE of it's identity because "fair parse".

Making it an instant cast offers nothing to the game that we don't currently have, so what would be the point? I can solidly affirm that there are very few skills which are comparative to Wrecking Blow.

Thorstienn wrote: »

Please dont change this. I use it, plenty do. We use it cause we like 2 handers and dont worry about squeezing the tiniest DPS increase out of everything.
The ability, feels right.
You say you want this change so it can compete with DW? Why? If it becomes better, then 2h will just be the new meta and everyone will complain about DW not being good enough anymore.
Or (more likely) it will barely change 2h dps at all, so meta won't use it as its "useless" because they can pull.more with DW.
And ZoS, maybe revert your OP light attack changes, so people stop complaining about every cast time ability in the game.

usmcjdking wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

So unlike many posters, I actually main 2h and/or Wrecking Blow on more than half of my stam DPS characters. Wrecking Blow/Dizzy is satisfying to cast, land and otherwise observe. It's a flashy skill and should remain flashy. Changes to animation shouldn't be made in an effort to close a gap in damage performance - you rob Uppercut of it's allure for many players when your main issue is that it is simply not mathematically strong enough and you attempt to change that by changing the animation.

If the core problem in PVE is the overall damage loss, then address the damage loss by increasing the potency of the skill; not by reworking and possibly ruining one of the better ESO animations.

You interpret this as if it was purely about damage and both morphs - It‘s not. You keep Dizzying Swing as it is and hopefully they rework the targeting of the ability. They give more flexibility to 2h users by makeing Wrecking Blow the instant cast. How do you rob anybody of anything here? Because you rework a nonsensical morph that doesn‘t synergize with it‘s special component (Empower) all to well, or because you’d allow a new, additional playstyle on the same ol‘ weapon line?

I don't see the point in streamlining all the spammables into instant casts. Why would I use WB over throw chicken on my stam warden? Why use it over SA on my Stamblade? Why use it over crushing weapon? The skill would likely get heavily nerfed in both damage and utility if it was made an instant cast, and I'm not seeing the actual value behind doing that. This game has more than enough high volume, low damage spammables, and we don't need to rob one of the last remaining low volume, high damage skills in PVE of it's identity because "fair parse".

Making it an instant cast offers nothing to the game that we don't currently have, so what would be the point? I can solidly affirm that there are very few skills which are comparative to Wrecking Blow.

It does offer something that we don't currently have though, which is a consistent 2H weapon spammable.

It may not be relevant for stamblades or stamplars or stamdens, but Crushing Weapon and Rapid Strikes aren't relevant to those classes either but we have them anyway.

It is relevant to stamDKs and stamsorcs who don't have a class spammable, and fits in particularly well with the new Redguard passive that reduces the cost of *weapon* skills.

And its weakness has absolutely nothing to do with its potency. Wrecking Blow hits hard. Its weakness is the clunky animation that doesn't jive well with its Empower component.

Making Wrecking Blow instant cast or otherwise reworking its animation so that it can be woven effectively would go a long way towards making 2H competitive in PvE.

It makes it come closer to DW by virtue of making it look more identical. I mean sure, you can achieve balance if everything looks the same; but that's not my goal, at least. Uppercut is supposed to be High Risk, High Reward - that's the entire design of the skill. The fact is right now it high risk, low reward - the empower effect isn't strong enough to carry the lost spammables and light attacks due to the duration of the cast time.

So instead of trying to reform a skill to balance a meta which only appeared less than a year ago, is heavily decried by players anyways, and is likely to change - let's not try to entirely redesign a skill for a meta that is not likely to exist in 5 months. Instead, give it what it needs - a high reward.

It has nothing to do with being "identical" to DW. It has to do with giving 2H weapons an option which works with the way PvE combat is designed. "High risk, low reward" attacks are irrelevant in PvE. Bosses don't read your telegraphs and dodge accordingly. The concept doesn't exist. So keep Dizzying Swing as it is, the PvP-oriented high risk high reward attack with a CC component, and modify Wrecking Blow to be viable in a PvE context. That is: instant cast or otherwise modified so that it can be fluidly woven in a rotation. If that requires modifying the damage a bit, so be it (although I'm not entirely sure that's necessary). It doesn't *have* to be instant cast, it could even be a channel ... Rapid Strikes and Jabs are not instant cast and they are not difficult to weave.

As for your second paragraph, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. My ask is for Wrecking Blow to be reworked so that it fits in a Light Attack weaving rotation, which is the PvE meta that has existed for almost the entirety of ESO's life except for that brief dark time after Morrowind. And Wrecking Blow *already* has a high reward. It hits extremely hard. On a solo 6mil parse, I get Wrecking Blow hits for 30k+ damage. On a buffed 6mil parse (Fracture, Infal, Minor Berserk) I get Wrecking Blow hits for over 35k. It is already a strong attack, it doesn't need any more "reward".

That is not the case for how and where 2H performed (with Wrecking Blow in particular) in parsing over the duration of the game.

2H was not light attack meta until a) heavies got wildly nerfed and lights got wildly buffed b) off balance nerf. Forceful, Follow-up, and Empower were waaaaaaaaay too strong to waste on a 7k crit light attack versus a 40k crit heavy. On single target BS parses they were similar, but for anything where more than one target was present, light attack weaving with Wrecking Blow was so vastly inferior to HA weaving that there wasn't a case to be made. As far as 2H goes, the LA meta is fairly recent to it's DPS applications.

Wrecking Blow is still very high risk in PVE. You can't block cancel it and get damage, you can't roll cancel it and get damage, you can't animation cancel it and get damage, you can't barswap cancel it and get damage, you can't just run by an NPC and button mash and get damage, it has a minimum range for activation and a maximum range for which any breach at any point during the channel can cancel it, there are multiple LOS checks based on your camera view and there are multiple distance checks throughout the entire channel. The skill is loaded with a ton of checks that no other skill in the game has, and that is likely why you have trouble weaving it. You add in a high mobility fight and WB starts to look a whole lot less attractive. As someone who has been plastering NPCs since launch with uppercut, I rarely run into a situation where WB won't go off in PVE and 9/10 that's a matter of me positioning myself poorly.

We both agree that the skill is underperforming in some avenue. I don't have the same weaving issues you do, and find the skill fairly underwhelming in it's overall potency - it should be extremely powerful in cases where you can just tee off on an NPC, which it isn't strong enough in that application. It doesn't necessarily have to hit harder, but it should absolutely be better than it's current iteration. You're experience lends to the skill being clunky and inconsistent. I somewhat agree that it's inconsistent - a lot of the LOS/Distance checks should probably be removed from the skill so it's not nearly as nuanced to cast & complete as it is now. Perhaps both.

Can we stop bringing up DSwing in a thread that talks about a different PVE morph and PVE usage of a skill? That's like calling to change PVE caltrops because anti-calvary caltrops is good at knocking level 20's off their horse.

usmcjdking wrote:

WB should be the PVE morph. The skill is actually fairly potent and strong and makes for a very friendly dot-light rotation. But it's more hampered by the fact that 2H is godawful compared to DW than by virtue of WB being weak.

usmcjdking wrote: »

Single target channels, or DOT conals do not function or follow the same rules as Uppercut in their entirety. Jabs & flurry can absolutely conduct drive by damage. You can absolutely dodge cancel them both and still have a few ticks of damage get through. Neither skill breaks based off camera movement and RS will outright orient you to the opponent on cast. To contend that these skills operate under the same ruleset is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as "coming across a thread from a month ago" as if you magically stumbled across a thread I posted in that is sitting on page 17.

I'm actually mildly amused that you can extrapolate me posting a comment in a thread as being in agreeance with it. I neither agreed with op, nor did I disagree, I simply left a statement. I haven't changed my tune either; that's an affirmative statement, not a suggestive statement. The context of the thread, had, much like you, ventured of into DSwing territory. I'll reaffirm, more clearly. WB already is the PVE morph and should stay that way - if you're going to quote me without context then you run the risk of not understanding the context for which it was being stated. My statement is fairly clear - WB doesn't need any changes to promote use outside of PVE. WB is perceived as weak because 2H as a whole is weak compared to DW despite the skills promoting it as a single target powerhouse.

I've held the same position on 2H for quite some time. 2H needs direct buffs, not arbitrary buffs that benefit 2H more than DW. I'm a fan of buffing the 2H skills over the passives, albeit follow-up is massively outdated and Heavy Weapons is far more restrictive than TB&B. The only purpose I can see in removing the last skill in the game that actually cares about your positioning, orientation and distance because it makes the skill clunky and difficult to use is that it's harder. Yes, it's supposed to be harder. If you suck at swinging then Uppercut will suck because you suck at swinging. If you don't, it will still be average overall, but through no fault of the player. Have I made my position clear?

So we have a skill that takes 2 functional brain cells to use and instead of giving it the attention it deserves, we want to put it in the same category as every other spammable because that makes it easy. I'll pass.

The skill is actually fairly potent and strong

(I) find the skill fairly underwhelming in it's overall potency

usmcjdking wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Single target channels, or DOT conals do not function or follow the same rules as Uppercut in their entirety. Jabs & flurry can absolutely conduct drive by damage. You can absolutely dodge cancel them both and still have a few ticks of damage get through. Neither skill breaks based off camera movement and RS will outright orient you to the opponent on cast. To contend that these skills operate under the same ruleset is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as "coming across a thread from a month ago" as if you magically stumbled across a thread I posted in that is sitting on page 17.

I'm actually mildly amused that you can extrapolate me posting a comment in a thread as being in agreeance with it. I neither agreed with op, nor did I disagree, I simply left a statement. I haven't changed my tune either; that's an affirmative statement, not a suggestive statement. The context of the thread, had, much like you, ventured of into DSwing territory. I'll reaffirm, more clearly. WB already is the PVE morph and should stay that way - if you're going to quote me without context then you run the risk of not understanding the context for which it was being stated. My statement is fairly clear - WB doesn't need any changes to promote use outside of PVE. WB is perceived as weak because 2H as a whole is weak compared to DW despite the skills promoting it as a single target powerhouse.

I've held the same position on 2H for quite some time. 2H needs direct buffs, not arbitrary buffs that benefit 2H more than DW. I'm a fan of buffing the 2H skills over the passives, albeit follow-up is massively outdated and Heavy Weapons is far more restrictive than TB&B. The only purpose I can see in removing the last skill in the game that actually cares about your positioning, orientation and distance because it makes the skill clunky and difficult to use is that it's harder. Yes, it's supposed to be harder. If you suck at swinging then Uppercut will suck because you suck at swinging. If you don't, it will still be average overall, but through no fault of the player. Have I made my position clear?

So we have a skill that takes 2 functional brain cells to use and instead of giving it the attention it deserves, we want to put it in the same category as every other spammable because that makes it easy. I'll pass.

I actually "came across" that thread via a simple Google search:

https://www.google.com/search?q=why+is+wrecking+blow+so+hard+to+weave

First sub-result of the first parent result. But believe what you will.

In that thread, you said:

The skill is actually fairly potent and strong

In this thread, you say:

(I) find the skill fairly underwhelming in it's overall potency

So ... which is it? Is it "actually fairly potent and strong" or "fairly underwhelming in it's [sic] overall potency"? I mean maybe I'm just a nut but one statement seems like a direct contradiction of the other.

Of those two statements, I'd have to agree with the former. I don't think 2H skills need "direct buffs". Wrecking Blow and Executioner hit far harder than anything in the DW tree. Passives, the lack of a crit-focused weapon, Wrecking Blow's awkward animation/timing, and the less potent and slower auto attacks are the primary issues from my perspective. Wrecking Blow hits harder than Rapid Strikes, Crushing Weapon, Surprise Attack, Cutting Dive or Biting Jabs. Executioner *can* hit around the same numbers as Killer's Blade but of course it scales differently so its average value is significantly lower.

And it is of course ridiculous to think that Wrecking Blow, in an end game PvE context, takes any more "brain cells" to use than any other skill. It just does not flow smoothly in a rotation, even if a boss is standing still directly in front of you, and is much more sensitive to latency spikes or other sources of lag.

You're going to have to do a little bit more than that to convince anyone that has a mental capacity greater than a garden variety vegetable that you a) decided to google a term instead of using the eso forums search function b) decided to skip over a few other selections c) decide to read all the comments d) to find mine. That's an incredible web of *** lol. Keep the hand-wavy fairy dust reasoning to yourself. If your goal is to discredit me, then just say it.

They aren't contradictory because the context, again, isn't in your favor. Wrecking blow is strong. It is not strong enough to carry 2H to DW levels or surpass it in S/T applications. It should therefore be buffed in tandem with Reverse Slash to promote the use of 2H skills, not just throwing on 2H for giggles. So yes, the skill is potent and strong; and overall in application it's underwhelming.

Anyhow, I don't suck at uppercutting stuff so I can't understand your fix action. I see no reason to entertain this any longer as we won't agree since our argument isn't even congruent - the only congruency we have is that the skill needs to be adjusted positively. You think the skill needs to be redesigned to support more fluid weaving. I think the skills effort to resolve are far more difficult than other skills and the benefit doesn't match.