So Liko did a complete Magicka DPS racial test. Check results here and stop spreading misinformation

MartiniDaniels · January 2019

Kel wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

Now I am in no way a math genious, but my simple brain is having a hard time understanding how 750 magicka more can be dealing less damage. I'm fine with us ignoring the sustain bonus that Altmers get in a raid environment, but how does 1250 magicka and 258 spell damage deal more damage than 1250 magicka and 258 spell damage.

exactly my point, there is no way Dunmer would havr higher dps than Altmer, these are just different attempts and the one with the dunmer was a very lucky attempt. The difference should be small but altmers are better than dunmers as magicka DDs its just basic kindergarden math

Um, calm down.
I think the point is to show that races still won't make such a big deal. Lots of players on the forum were saying dark elf magicka users were dead. This shows they are clearly not.
It's not some attempt to "put Altmer in thier place" as you seem to be taking it.
It's not a negitive thing...yet you seem to be taking it that way.

For me it just proves how subjective everything is - we (dunmer mains) were overreacting on khajiit's success as magplar, now you (non-dunmer mains) are overreacting on this NB tests, though it opposes common logic 4 > 3.

Basically, if this test showed that altmer does 500 dps more then dunmer in average on 60k parse, it will prove that impact of those 750 magicka and sustain is minimal and so on. Now it just proves that those parses prove nothing.

zaria · January 2019

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

Where's argonian? No data is relevant until argonians are included!

#SaxhleelLifeMatter

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1
This test has them and show they are 1% below the others.
Had been interesting to add an race with no bonuses just for effect. like wood elf magic.

susmitds · January 2019

I am already on the way of making a raid DPS tests with many as 20 samples for each race, this time with everyone on blue food. It is like 75% done already, but will take some more hours to complete and then some more to create charts and analytics. Lets crack this.

MaxJrFTW · January 2019

I think you need at least 20 parses with each race to get a more accurate result. As it has been mentioned already, it makes no mathematical sense for Altmer to be below Dunmer, it just doesn't.

What this does prove, is that races are very balanced and the performance difference is pretty much nonexistent. Different story in PvP, but this is not a PvP discussion.

MartiniDaniels · January 2019

zaria wrote: »

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

Where's argonian? No data is relevant until argonians are included!

#SaxhleelLifeMatter

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1
This test has them and show they are 1% below the others.
Had been interesting to add an race with no bonuses just for effect. like wood elf magic.

And then bosmer will parse on 62k as magdk and everybody will be shocked

Robo_Hobo · January 2019

Feanor wrote: »

The funny thing is the Average Joe - who can't even reach 25k DPS, let alone 60k - is completely losing his mind over the changes when all these tests show the races come very close.

Yeah lol, if the difference at 60k DPS is like 1-2k, then the difference at 25k would be not even noticeable because it could be attributed to crit rng per session.

And yet people are threatening to quit because of it.

Heimpai · January 2019

nsmurfer wrote: »

Updating OP with this.

Is there a noticeable difference is sustain between Altmer/Breton? Last time i did a parse i was terrible at sustaining (was a Bosmer stamblade)

susmitds · January 2019

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

I think you need at least 20 parses with each race to get a more accurate result. As it has been mentioned already, it makes no mathematical sense for Altmer to be below Dunmer, it just doesn't.

What this does prove, is that races are very balanced and the performance difference is pretty much nonexistent. Different story in PvP, but this is not a PvP discussion.

@MaxJrFTW I am doing exactly that (35 samples with 20 randomly chosen to minimize error). Will take some more hours. This stuff is tiring enough, and I will burn out without breaks.

MartiniDaniels · January 2019

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The funny thing is the Average Joe - who can't even reach 25k DPS, let alone 60k - is completely losing his mind over the changes when all these tests show the races come very close.

Yeah lol, if the difference at 60k DPS is like 1-2k, then the difference at 25k would be not even noticeable because it could be attributed to crit rng per session.

And yet people are threatening to quit because of it.

People are mostly concerned how all this will end for madDK. Comparison should be like magdk dunmer on live, magdk dunmer on pts, magdk altmer on pts.

nsmurfer · January 2019

susmitds wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

I think you need at least 20 parses with each race to get a more accurate result. As it has been mentioned already, it makes no mathematical sense for Altmer to be below Dunmer, it just doesn't.

What this does prove, is that races are very balanced and the performance difference is pretty much nonexistent. Different story in PvP, but this is not a PvP discussion.

@MaxJrFTW I am doing exactly that (35 samples with 20 randomly chosen to minimize error). Will take some more hours. This stuff is tiring enough, and I will burn out without breaks.

Thnks for your dedication. Burning out is understandable.

Morgul667 · January 2019

Thanks for the information

Pretty cool and nice of you to share all this

MartiniDaniels · January 2019

susmitds wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

I think you need at least 20 parses with each race to get a more accurate result. As it has been mentioned already, it makes no mathematical sense for Altmer to be below Dunmer, it just doesn't.

What this does prove, is that races are very balanced and the performance difference is pretty much nonexistent. Different story in PvP, but this is not a PvP discussion.

@MaxJrFTW I am doing exactly that (35 samples with 20 randomly chosen to minimize error). Will take some more hours. This stuff is tiring enough, and I will burn out without breaks.

Thanks for your efforts and they seem to bring more accurate and reasonable results.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

@Aluneth , on perfect parses, sure, numerically altmer must have an edge. The only issue is, there won't be any perfect parses. Say, you run ten trials and statistically you may be slightly ahead as an altmer, but on such a small sample size, you can easily be a whole lot behind or a whole lot ahead of your fellow neighbor dunmer - same as nothing guarantees you that out of ten coin tosses you won't get ten heads in a row. Mind, I'm not saying that they're equal for magicka, they're not, just that difference will be likely dwarfed by fluctuations of crit, conditions, and your own skill (get back to the boss a couple of seconds faster after kiting Storm of Heavens, and you already have compensated for the damage 750 magicka gives).

Now I know it's little consolation (I should know, I'm khajiit, always been suffering from being at the back of the bus, even if by little), but at least all of the above are viable for most purposes. Now think of poor argonians shafted without any compensation to make them better as DPS, or healer/dd nords. Everything's relative.

Also yes, my thanks to @susmitds for that huge effort. ^^

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

all this effort to determine a less than 2% difference. jesus people.

themaddaedra · January 2019

Feanor wrote: »

The funny thing is the Average Joe - who can't even reach 25k DPS, let alone 60k - is completely losing his mind over the changes when all these tests show the races come very close.

Amongst all the detailed data, bias, speculation and all, that's by far the best comment i have seen on this update so far.

Ohhgrizyyy · January 2019

nsmurfer wrote: »

This is a group buffed dps test so solo number would be variably lesser. Check out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1 by @susmitds for solo DPS numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwAsgDwnALw

GUESS, who is on top.

Dunmer.... followed by Breton, Khajiit and Altmer.

Averages!

This is surprisingly in line with the statistical tests @susmitds has made.

As so many people wanted data by a well known player , well here's one for you. Go ahead and stop the misinformation.

Dunmer being on top right there was just a really lucky/good parse. Khajit has a better average.

HappyLittleTree · January 2019

zaria wrote: »

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

Where's argonian? No data is relevant until argonians are included!

#SaxhleelLifeMatter

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1
This test has them and show they are 1% below the others.
Had been interesting to add an race with no bonuses just for effect. like wood elf magic.

Thanks

xxthir13enxx · January 2019

The explanation here is simple....ZOS can’t even get their own coding straight on a Test Server....what they plan to do n what they did obviously don’t match up with unknown anomalies.

Ohhgrizyyy · January 2019

I find it funny cause people are getting different numbers so it just shows how balanced they are now.

Ohhgrizyyy · January 2019

Khajit nightblades in theory should also be doing more dps because of their critical dmg passive. Along with an organized group that has good major force uptime they should boost ahead even further

Ohhgrizyyy · January 2019

This is the video I watched and the guy I follow for info like this

https://youtu.be/79vrUawRXVY

Yamenstein · January 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

This is a group buffed dps test so solo number would be variably lesser. Check out https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454707/race-pve-dps-difference-tests-for-both-stamina-and-magicka-results-and-graphical-breakdown/p1 by @susmitds for solo DPS numbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwAsgDwnALw

GUESS, who is on top.

Dunmer.... followed by Breton, Khajiit and Altmer.

This is surprisingly in line with the statistical tests @susmitds has made.

As so many people wanted data by a well known player , well here's one for you. Go ahead and stop the misinformation.

You are joking? tell me please how altmer has worse results then dunmer, when altmer stats are plainly better? i mean altmer have exactly the same stats as dunmer + 750 magicka and + good sustain. It just shows that all this parses are kinda random.

It will always be random.
That's why you do multiple parses then take a look at the average. DPS looks pretty similar across all the races. What more do you want ?

Bigevilpeter · January 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

Now I am in no way a math genious, but my simple brain is having a hard time understanding how 750 magicka more can be dealing less damage. I'm fine with us ignoring the sustain bonus that Altmers get in a raid environment, but how does 1250 magicka and 258 spell damage deal more damage than 1250 magicka and 258 spell damage.

exactly my point, there is no way Dunmer would havr higher dps than Altmer, these are just different attempts and the one with the dunmer was a very lucky attempt. The difference should be small but altmers are better than dunmers as magicka DDs its just basic kindergarden math

In my understanding from the discussion, the key is how good the group provides sustain.

Dunmer have higher raw damage potential, but bad sustain compared to Altmer. So if all their sustain needs are met and the Dunmer best rotation is used, a dunmer (or a Khajiit) can out damage the Altmer. However, if that's not the case, the higher sustain and more forgiving rotation of the Altmer wins out.

So in that sense, it depends on your group and your testing conditions.

Not really with the same sustain and everything altmer still has 750 more max magicka so altmer will always be bettter than dunmer even if very slightly so

Faulgor · January 2019

If a difference of 750 Magicka (-37.5%, 2000 vs 1250) doesn't actually make a difference outside of random noise, then maybe the bonuses are crap to begin with?

I second the request for magicka parses with non-magicka races like Bosmer or Orc. Could be illuminating.

Bigevilpeter · January 2019

nsmurfer wrote: »

Updating OP with this.

Yeah that makes much more sense, as you can see the first dunmer parse was a very lucky one, but yeah overall the races are pretty close

Juhasow · January 2019

Just small correction @nsmurfer there is difference between being on top and having the luckiest parse which dunmer had.

Liko · January 2019

Crit chance just seems to have more influence than choice of race especially in the case of the Magicka Nightblade.

I could probably guarantee that, if I presented these DPS outputs without indication of which parses belonged to which race, it would be very difficult for anyone to match them up correctly. Even with a reasonably consistent performance, parses made by the same race can differ rather wildly in a Nightblade at times, as you'll all know in your own experiences.

Ideally I could have done at least 10 or 20 tests for each race per class, though its difficult when i already take up a lot of time from the healer who helps to provide results.

I guess it would be interesting to try a few parses on a complete off-meta race such as a Woodelf or Nord, since at that point maybe racial passives can start to make a consistent difference for the Magicka Nightblade.

Altmer is better than Dunmer on paper, and I agree that performance over a large range of results would eventually prove that, but in so many scenarios in ESO, it still doesn't really matter, because there are other factors (such as crit rng mentioned previously, major slayer or major berserk procs received, orbs popped and most importantly player skill/consistency) which matter more.

mairwen85 · January 2019

@nsmurfer

Your table apart from being a small and easily skewable data sample (per averages) actually ranks:

Breton
Kajiit
Dunmer
Altmer

The Liko video outputs show Dunmer ontop (attributing to favourable rng);

I'm quite happy that individual testers have close but ultimately different results. It means that performance is closer than ever and more depends on the skill of the player.

Thanks for the thread; I think it would put many people's mind at rest.

I do feel you should update and correct the detail in the first post though, it does still contain 'misinformation'/ 'misrepresentation of data''.

Ermiq · January 2019

No surprise. Dunmer is a master race, they've been, they are, they will be.

Commancho · January 2019

That's mag DD comparision. What about healers, tanks, gankers etc?
Do you assume that everyone is playing magicka DD class?