Are there really only a few usable sets?

Sylvermynx · December 2018

Royaji wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, you both miss the point. The point is I spent almost 8 years playing WoW (yeah.... you know.... an MMO) and then another almost 4 years playing RIFT (eh, yep, an MMO). So I know how MMOs work and are different from SPMR game. I did NOT come to ESO expecting a SPMR game. I came here expecting the same sort of MMO experience I'd had in previous MMOs - that is, a lot of social stupidity (yep, check) combined with a world I know well from other games (yep, check).

Now, past that, I did expect that getting to max level would work similarly to the other MMOs. However, that's not the case at all. For one thing, the other games just add levels - in other words, there's never really a "max level" - and gear is predicated on that fact; whereas this game has artificially truncated itself at level 50, and then somehow thinks that a player will be thrilled to grind CP rather than real levels. Strange, but yeah, I can deal with it. I'll just consider CP "real levels"....

So regardless that I did a very large amount of research before deciding to "pay to play" (yes, I sub ESO+ - I always support with real money the games I play), somehow I missed that this one aspect of this game was.... so very different. Hence my surprise at level 47, discovering as I did more research, that apparently there is only one "endgame" setup - basically either raiding, or pvp.

Not doing either one. Hate them both. So guess what? I'll just continue with my tankden, run around doing all the stuff I didn't ever get through, and be perfectly happy. And I'm probably NOT changing her into either mag or stam. What a silly concept.

Oh. And BTW - I am "she". Not he.

Then I do not understand what even is an issue for you? For you purposes of general running around and not touching raiding and PvP pretty much anything works. Go nuts. This is that Elder Scrolls-like part I was talking about. And since you hate the other part so badly, why would you even be interested in whats happening to it?

The issue is people telling me I have to do whatever - in other words, mag or stam - and run specific gear sets (which require STUPID amounts of group content). Nope, I don't have a problem NOT doing that - I have a problem with people I don't know well messaging me in game to tell me I'm doing it wrong.

If that's never happened to you, that's good, and I'm very happy for you. I swear, the number of busybodies in this game is enough to drive a person to drink.

D0PAMINE · December 2018

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

This is actually something I've been agonizing over, but my character is a special case.

He's intended to be equally able to use magic and staves as swords and bows. This has meant dividing his trait points between Stamina and Magicka (I'd like to put some in Health too, but his damage is dismal enough as it is).

This has meant trying to figure out what kind of armour to wear (Light helps the magic damage, and Medium the weapon damage, but without Heavy armour he's really, REALLY squishy), and what SETS to use. Ideally, he'd have two sets with 5 bits each, but how to divide them up? Do I go for the armour skills that require 5 parts to be useful? Do I spend CP on armour types? Actually, how to I spend my CP at all?

He's proving to be a daunting challenge... Equipment sets are but one small part of his problems.

Now, on my OTHER characters, it often depends on their particular backstory. For instance, Morgha Kul was a summoner in the original Morrowind game, so I took the Defiler set to get the Hunger popping in on occasion... and since it seems that he now MUST have all his trait points in Magicka in order to do adequate damage and have an adequate shield, that also means using Light armour to boost that damage. The Light armour he's using summons a Fabricant (I don't recall the name of it). So, because of his concept, the armour he uses is more or less chosen for me.

I had a hybrid NB up until dueling was introduced. It was a rough lesson to learn. I didn't even get proc sets too.

Lumenn · December 2018

If you care about the meta, you're chasing THE top, mathematical dps set(because as has been stated, dps is everything in this game)

If you're not going meta, it's a pain(esp with zos famous rng) to farm a variety of sets(with either the right traits or farm transmute and have the right traits researched) just for theory crafting. You find something that works and stick with it until it becomes boring. And crafted gear is so/so. I suppose pc has better options on their test server but that isn't available to 2/3 of your platforms.

Royaji · December 2018

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, you both miss the point. The point is I spent almost 8 years playing WoW (yeah.... you know.... an MMO) and then another almost 4 years playing RIFT (eh, yep, an MMO). So I know how MMOs work and are different from SPMR game. I did NOT come to ESO expecting a SPMR game. I came here expecting the same sort of MMO experience I'd had in previous MMOs - that is, a lot of social stupidity (yep, check) combined with a world I know well from other games (yep, check).

Now, past that, I did expect that getting to max level would work similarly to the other MMOs. However, that's not the case at all. For one thing, the other games just add levels - in other words, there's never really a "max level" - and gear is predicated on that fact; whereas this game has artificially truncated itself at level 50, and then somehow thinks that a player will be thrilled to grind CP rather than real levels. Strange, but yeah, I can deal with it. I'll just consider CP "real levels"....

So regardless that I did a very large amount of research before deciding to "pay to play" (yes, I sub ESO+ - I always support with real money the games I play), somehow I missed that this one aspect of this game was.... so very different. Hence my surprise at level 47, discovering as I did more research, that apparently there is only one "endgame" setup - basically either raiding, or pvp.

Not doing either one. Hate them both. So guess what? I'll just continue with my tankden, run around doing all the stuff I didn't ever get through, and be perfectly happy. And I'm probably NOT changing her into either mag or stam. What a silly concept.

Oh. And BTW - I am "she". Not he.

Then I do not understand what even is an issue for you? For you purposes of general running around and not touching raiding and PvP pretty much anything works. Go nuts. This is that Elder Scrolls-like part I was talking about. And since you hate the other part so badly, why would you even be interested in whats happening to it?

The issue is people telling me I have to do whatever - in other words, mag or stam - and run specific gear sets (which require STUPID amounts of group content). Nope, I don't have a problem NOT doing that - I have a problem with people I don't know well messaging me in game to tell me I'm doing it wrong.

If that's never happened to you, that's good, and I'm very happy for you. I swear, the number of busybodies in this game is enough to drive a person to drink.

I guess I was never bothered by that. Either the advice was something I wanted to hear or I politely declined it saying that I have no need for that. Even then there is that beautiful function called ignore in the game too. Although I can't really say I do any kind of content with random people these days. A group of like minded people to play with is a great way to solve most of the problems people are having in this thread

Sylvermynx · December 2018

Royaji wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, you both miss the point. The point is I spent almost 8 years playing WoW (yeah.... you know.... an MMO) and then another almost 4 years playing RIFT (eh, yep, an MMO). So I know how MMOs work and are different from SPMR game. I did NOT come to ESO expecting a SPMR game. I came here expecting the same sort of MMO experience I'd had in previous MMOs - that is, a lot of social stupidity (yep, check) combined with a world I know well from other games (yep, check).

Now, past that, I did expect that getting to max level would work similarly to the other MMOs. However, that's not the case at all. For one thing, the other games just add levels - in other words, there's never really a "max level" - and gear is predicated on that fact; whereas this game has artificially truncated itself at level 50, and then somehow thinks that a player will be thrilled to grind CP rather than real levels. Strange, but yeah, I can deal with it. I'll just consider CP "real levels"....

So regardless that I did a very large amount of research before deciding to "pay to play" (yes, I sub ESO+ - I always support with real money the games I play), somehow I missed that this one aspect of this game was.... so very different. Hence my surprise at level 47, discovering as I did more research, that apparently there is only one "endgame" setup - basically either raiding, or pvp.

Not doing either one. Hate them both. So guess what? I'll just continue with my tankden, run around doing all the stuff I didn't ever get through, and be perfectly happy. And I'm probably NOT changing her into either mag or stam. What a silly concept.

Oh. And BTW - I am "she". Not he.

Then I do not understand what even is an issue for you? For you purposes of general running around and not touching raiding and PvP pretty much anything works. Go nuts. This is that Elder Scrolls-like part I was talking about. And since you hate the other part so badly, why would you even be interested in whats happening to it?

The issue is people telling me I have to do whatever - in other words, mag or stam - and run specific gear sets (which require STUPID amounts of group content). Nope, I don't have a problem NOT doing that - I have a problem with people I don't know well messaging me in game to tell me I'm doing it wrong.

If that's never happened to you, that's good, and I'm very happy for you. I swear, the number of busybodies in this game is enough to drive a person to drink.

I guess I was never bothered by that. Either the advice was something I wanted to hear or I politely declined it saying that I have no need for that. Even then there is that beautiful function called ignore in the game too. Although I can't really say I do any kind of content with random people these days. A group of like minded people to play with is a great way to solve most of the problems people are having in this thread

I don't have any any interest in groups period. My lag is so bad.... I won't even consider dumping that on anyone. Of course, I'm a totally solo player anyway, so the lag is a convenient excuse, ain't?

Anyway.... the whole point is for me that this game is.... as MMOs go.... so different I'm not even sure what to think. Now, I don't have any interest in going back to WoW or RIFT (where my guilds now belong to my sister and daughter who still play - no clue why, but *shrug* - different strokes for different folks I guess)

I am enjoying ESO. It's just that some things regarding the MMO component have truly caused me to say "lol WUT?"

Royaji · December 2018

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh, you both miss the point. The point is I spent almost 8 years playing WoW (yeah.... you know.... an MMO) and then another almost 4 years playing RIFT (eh, yep, an MMO). So I know how MMOs work and are different from SPMR game. I did NOT come to ESO expecting a SPMR game. I came here expecting the same sort of MMO experience I'd had in previous MMOs - that is, a lot of social stupidity (yep, check) combined with a world I know well from other games (yep, check).

Now, past that, I did expect that getting to max level would work similarly to the other MMOs. However, that's not the case at all. For one thing, the other games just add levels - in other words, there's never really a "max level" - and gear is predicated on that fact; whereas this game has artificially truncated itself at level 50, and then somehow thinks that a player will be thrilled to grind CP rather than real levels. Strange, but yeah, I can deal with it. I'll just consider CP "real levels"....

So regardless that I did a very large amount of research before deciding to "pay to play" (yes, I sub ESO+ - I always support with real money the games I play), somehow I missed that this one aspect of this game was.... so very different. Hence my surprise at level 47, discovering as I did more research, that apparently there is only one "endgame" setup - basically either raiding, or pvp.

Not doing either one. Hate them both. So guess what? I'll just continue with my tankden, run around doing all the stuff I didn't ever get through, and be perfectly happy. And I'm probably NOT changing her into either mag or stam. What a silly concept.

Oh. And BTW - I am "she". Not he.

Then I do not understand what even is an issue for you? For you purposes of general running around and not touching raiding and PvP pretty much anything works. Go nuts. This is that Elder Scrolls-like part I was talking about. And since you hate the other part so badly, why would you even be interested in whats happening to it?

The issue is people telling me I have to do whatever - in other words, mag or stam - and run specific gear sets (which require STUPID amounts of group content). Nope, I don't have a problem NOT doing that - I have a problem with people I don't know well messaging me in game to tell me I'm doing it wrong.

If that's never happened to you, that's good, and I'm very happy for you. I swear, the number of busybodies in this game is enough to drive a person to drink.

I guess I was never bothered by that. Either the advice was something I wanted to hear or I politely declined it saying that I have no need for that. Even then there is that beautiful function called ignore in the game too. Although I can't really say I do any kind of content with random people these days. A group of like minded people to play with is a great way to solve most of the problems people are having in this thread

I don't have any any interest in groups period. My lag is so bad.... I won't even consider dumping that on anyone. Of course, I'm a totally solo player anyway, so the lag is a convenient excuse, ain't?

Anyway.... the whole point is for me that this game is.... as MMOs go.... so different I'm not even sure what to think. Now, I don't have any interest in going back to WoW or RIFT (where my guilds now belong to my sister and daughter who still play - no clue why, but *shrug* - different strokes for different folks I guess)

I am enjoying ESO. It's just that some things regarding the MMO component have truly caused me to say "lol WUT?"

Sorry, you stopped making sense again. I do not understand how this:

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I don't have any any interest in groups period

comes together with this:

Sylvermynx wrote: »

The issue is people telling me I have to do whatever

If you are not in a group with anyone why would they even question your build? And even if this was the case (and I really can't imagine that there are massive amounts of people running around overworld giving end-game advice to every player they meet) why don't you put yourself on offline mode so people can't message you? Since you are only interested in solo stuff anyway?

Wolfchild07 · December 2018

Ashen Grip is bad? Nonsense!

I'll be waiting to see a video of an all werewolf trial run with Ashen + Thunderbug + Ilambris.

This is the challenge. GO!

DocFrost72 · December 2018

Tasear wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

There are certainly sets that defy their own logic. Two examples:

Ashen grip is a stamina dps oriented set that uses a 5 piece damage base that scales off of magic damage. Your stamina specced character loses out in the buffs from cp and gear on the five piece.

Vampire's kiss seems like a tank set from its 2-4 piece bonuses, but the fifth one requires you to get a killing blow for a weak hot. The hot gets even weaker when you realize, proportionally, it's less than 1% of a tank's health every second. In pvp, this heal would be even more laughable (especially compared to sets like 7th legion).

I chalk it up to the original crafted and drop sets being made in a totally different environment than we play in now, coupled with the arms race of each new patch trying to provide unique or interesting set concepts.

Ashen Grip has a place though. It's a great set for a brand new player just getting started and learning crafting.
That was the first set I made as a brand new player when I hit level 10. At only 2 traits I was able to make the full 5 piece set because the research at that level is short and sweet.

Im glad you found use for that set. It still doesn't change the fact that the 5 piece bonus on that set contradicts the vision of the other three bonuses, penalizing most players.

Though I think at that point we'd be arguing two entirely different positions.

Getting back on topic some sets maybe got outdated because of vision of gameplay didn't appeal to right audience or too niche.

Also new direction are some sets over nerfed as the term is used?

I want to say you were around pre 1 tamriel tasear, so you remember how different the game used to be. That'd be my guess as to why some sets make very strange 2-4 or 5 piece choices.

I don't think they're *nerfed*, I just think how stats were used evolved. Example: without cp, Ashen grip doesn't look horribly bad even on stamina setups. With the introduction of cp, Ashen grip works *against itself*.

I think a lot of sets fall into one of three categories: Niche, well worn, and questionable. An example of each respectively would be kagrenac's hope (niche but heavily effective in its use), ebon (LOTS of people running it, well designed set), and ice furnace (why is there a weapon damage buff on the four piece again?).

If you (or zos) wanted to improve some sets' viability, it may be worth compiling sets that seem to work against themselves through their stat bonus, or armor weight and intended purpose.

Waffennacht · December 2018

I have a few comments:

The "I wanna play how I want with my hybrid bow magicka wizard" and "I want to kill things and survive" don't mesh well. Either you play as you want and have very limited content or you fall in line.

I would agree there's a limited viable set pool to choose from. There's a lack of synergy between necessary abilities and effective set synergy.

I.e. Endless Hail is a must have for practically all stamina DPS builds - any set that doesn't increase this damage (physical) is instantly unusable. Swamp Raider (as cool as RP poison ninja is) is not a viable dps set because it will not modify endless hail

Scrolling through the sets, the majority of dps sets that do have synergy with a larger pool of abilities and other sets only drop in trials (sources of minor Slayer, relequen, sirioria etc) further limiting the set options for the majority player base.

starkerealm · December 2018

[removed quote]

Please, I have a have a degree social sciences. You honestly think you're the first person I've run across who screamed, "BUT TEH MAFFS," while trying to crunch numbers around human behavior?

Fact remains, whatever calculations you make, the determinate factor for performance in ESO rests on the player. When you fail to account for this (which you have), your calculations are meaningless except as an academic exercise.

Additionally, your calculations don't account for actually using the sets. That is to say, the mechanical processes associated with applying the sets. Only what occurs, "on paper." Meaning, again, as an academic exercise, "sure, whatever," but there's no value in the data generated.

Crunching numbers like that may be valid in a different MMO, but in ESO, mathematical comparisons like that are only usefull in sussing around looking for things that might be viable. Even then, it suffers from authorial biases, so it's potential utility is severely compromised.

You can scream, "Math is never wrong," but, it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, just like you cannot invoke and summon your badger allies to protect.

starkerealm · December 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

2. A term used in mmo meaning the Most Effective Tactic Available.

This is incorrect.

"Meta," comes from the term, "metagaming," which refers to players adjusting their behavior based on strategies and tactics that are popular in the community at large, or relevant to specific members.

In traditional tabletop RPGs, metagaming refers to players adjusting their roleplay around the GM's established behavior.

In most traditional tabletop gaming (and MMOs), metagaming refers to the overall community's problem solving approaches.

For example, the tank running Alkosh is the meta in ESO. This is not efficient, and from most standpoints is entirely counterproductive. However, "everyone," does it. That is why it is the meta.

"Most Efficient Tactic Available," is a backronym, which attempts to justify the meta as somehow, intrinsically valuable. It's not. In most MMOs (at least ones with active developers), the meta will be effective, but it is rarely the best way to handle any given problem.

starkerealm · December 2018

Juju_beans wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

There are certainly sets that defy their own logic. Two examples:

Ashen grip is a stamina dps oriented set that uses a 5 piece damage base that scales off of magic damage. Your stamina specced character loses out in the buffs from cp and gear on the five piece.

Vampire's kiss seems like a tank set from its 2-4 piece bonuses, but the fifth one requires you to get a killing blow for a weak hot. The hot gets even weaker when you realize, proportionally, it's less than 1% of a tank's health every second. In pvp, this heal would be even more laughable (especially compared to sets like 7th legion).

I chalk it up to the original crafted and drop sets being made in a totally different environment than we play in now, coupled with the arms race of each new patch trying to provide unique or interesting set concepts.

Ashen Grip has a place though. It's a great set for a brand new player just getting started and learning crafting.
That was the first set I made as a brand new player when I hit level 10. At only 2 traits I was able to make the full 5 piece set because the research at that level is short and sweet.

Even then, Night's Silence is significantly better than Ashen Grip.

Though, worth remembering, Ashen Grip's scaling is associated with champion points, so that's irrelevant to a newbie. So, you're not wrong about it being an intro-only set. I just wish the damage output on it was high enough to justify using it.

starkerealm · December 2018

karekiz wrote: »

There is generally one BIS, with some variance.

Saying that lets be honest 99% of this forums. Most players probably won't ever hit that ceiling anyway so the difference between BIS/non BIS won't matter a huge issue <assuming player is at least decent enough to come up with sets the function and work for the role>.

The amount of times I have randomed into groups with Reliquen + AY / Spell strat + Sirioria and they do max 15-20K DPS on a tank and spank classic vet is quite high.

I've, basically, given up on explaining to randos that, because of it's spin up time, Reli is basically only useful in some very specific situations.

starkerealm · December 2018

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Ashen Grip is bad? Nonsense!

I'll be waiting to see a video of an all werewolf trial run with Ashen + Thunderbug + Ilambris.

This is the challenge. GO!

I realize this is a joke @Wolfchild07, but Werewolves running ashen grip is legitimately hilarious to see. I used to have a guild that used that exact combo regularly.

Tigerseye · December 2018

Royaji wrote: »

I really can't imagine that there are massive amounts of people running around overworld giving end-game advice to every player they meet)

Oh, you would be surprised...

Some people will, literally, chase (borderline stalk!) people around, even in overworld, giving them uncalled for advice, lol.

Reminds me of this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH56UOjDQ4A

I don't get a lot of unasked-for advice, here, but I bet if I was running around on a very high health, tanky char (like Sylvermynx, apparently, is) I would.

T3hasiangod · December 2018

[removed quote]
Sigh, now I have to entertain a somewhat serious, yet characteristically sarcastic response.

1. Math is entirely relevant to the discussion at hand, which was determining the basis of the claim "There are many gear combinations that can perform within 1% of meta." Math can help provide the answer and evidence to support or disprove this claim.
2. Your claim that stating that "math is true" is contradictory to the use of math is, in itself, a contradiction. Math is used to determine whether patterns exist. In this pursuit, mathematicians use models and equations. These, by nature, are irrefutable; there is a reason why math uses "proofs" while social sciences are merely "theories" (which, I might add, are not the same as hard science "theories").
3. Your claim about needing to factor in player performance is also moot. The beauty of mathematics is that we can eliminate that factor by simply making an assumption such as "under ideal circumstances" or "using identically skilled players". In most scenarios, such assumptions need to be justifiable. In this case, it is.
4. Math can't suffer from biases. Interpretation of results can, but math cannot.
5. I hold an advanced degree in a field that uses mathematics to predict human health behaviors. I am getting a doctoral degree in that same field. Yes, math can be used to predict human behaviors. It is done all the time.
6. One does not need to test all possible combinations. One can simply simplify set bonus totals (e.g. 129 spell damage = 1 set bonus) and then compare those numbers. Sets that have max health or resistances as bonuses tend to have lower totals, so they can be removed (a few can remain due to their 5 piece being abnormally strong e.g. Ravager). Using Julianos or Hunding's as a "gold standard", it is then trivial to just go down a list and say "nope, nope, maybe?, yes, no, yes".

Your holding a social science degree means literally nothing to this conversation. In fact, you should know that the "appeal to authority" fallacy is a fallacy in logical arguments. In any case, unless you hold a doctoral degree, my authority likely outstrips your own.

firedrgn · December 2018

Tasear wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Yes, if you care about not pulling the group down by using something inferior. If not playing with group, use Ashen Grip, who cares ^^

Wow, you definitely fit the elitist requirement for class rep.

This made me laugh, not gonna lie ^^

On a serious note, there are only few sets (for each role) that are actually good; mathematically and practically. This will always be the case, whatever devs do. If you rate the best sets 10/10, others fall behind. Some are 9, some are 1 out of 10. If a player cares about the group and its performance, they should go for the 10/10 sets. It's basic logic and a part of being a teamplayer. That's why I said on my first post that if you care about the group, there are only few sets to choose from. If not, do whatever you want.

There are many groups out there who don't care about max performance, including one of my own groups. We have Argonian DPS players, MagSorcs, Stam DDs in Cloudrest/Asylum etc. because we don't care. It's for fun. On the other hand, I am also in groups where raid leaders tell people what to use or swap characters even. Guess what, they follow word by word because they care about reaching the max performance in that group.

Tasear wrote: »

That's not how it works though. Not all these meta sets work on each fight the best.

That's exactly how it works. That's why they are called meta sets. META = Most Effective Tactic Available.

It's this kind of ingorance what makes wrobel injore you. How about you actually think about the question for once instead of arguing in my threads.

The question is asking about the scope of the subject there are only a few usable sets. It's to discuss the actual problem not enforce just one belief.

This kinda of attitude doesn't solve Problems but create them.

"What I say is the meta"

Teaser i would suggest defining terms. If not everyone will define terms themselves.

The game is too broad and a lot of people have specific intrests.

Anyways ,what do you mean by good? What do you mean by usable?

richo262 · December 2018

I think ZOS should cull some sets.

I honestly don't mind if we lose some 'content'.

I think there is a quantity over quality problem.

Could probably cull 1/3 of the sets at this stage.

The_Lex · December 2018

I remember the days when we would compare parses. Now we seem to be comparing degrees. It's a game, people.

Kikke · December 2018

The_Lex wrote: »

I remember the days when we would compare parses. Now we seem to be comparing degrees. It's a game, people.

If you are scared of math, don't join a discussion on meta.

The_Lex · December 2018

Kikke wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

I remember the days when we would compare parses. Now we seem to be comparing degrees. It's a game, people.

If you are scared of math, don't join a discussion on meta.

Yes, because that's what I said. Smh

ZOS_JesC · December 2018

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