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Are there really only a few usable sets?
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Eiagra✭✭✭✭✭In all honesty, talk of meta and how one "should" do this else they are just "bringing down" the group or "not being a team player" is kinda depressing. It makes me less interested in end-game content, due to elitist attitudes and a lack of flexibility. If you aren't meta, you aren't in.
Why deal with toxic elitist players if you don't have to?
As for sets themselves, I do like how there's a lot of variety in them, but I'm less happy how obfuscated thing seem at times. It makes it difficult to experiment with builds when no one bothers to lay out exactly what all abilities/skills/sets/etc does. My latest gripe is "x damage over z duration" vs. "x damage every y time for z duration" -- the former is considered a DoT for purposes of CP or other bonuses, whereas the latter is not, even if they are effectively the same otherwise; this is not communicated anywhere. But this lack of clarity (and this is just one example) is frustrating. And builds you see on Youtube or Alcast or wherever rarely bother to explain why to use certain things, or how one thing interacts with another... I dunno. Frankly, the whole lot is discouraging.██████ █████████ ███████ In verity.0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Today WOW is larger in China, but it won the MMO race back in 2005 because it was far more causal to get into than the competitors while having an very serious and deep endgame.hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »
This made me laugh, not gonna lie ^^
On a serious note, there are only few sets (for each role) that are actually good; mathematically and practically. This will always be the case, whatever devs do. If you rate the best sets 10/10, others fall behind. Some are 9, some are 1 out of 10. If a player cares about the group and its performance, they should go for the 10/10 sets. It's basic logic and a part of being a teamplayer. That's why I said on my first post that if you care about the group, there are only few sets to choose from. If not, do whatever you want.
There are many groups out there who don't care about max performance, including one of my own groups. We have Argonian DPS players, MagSorcs, Stam DDs in Cloudrest/Asylum etc. because we don't care. It's for fun. On the other hand, I am also in groups where raid leaders tell people what to use or swap characters even. Guess what, they follow word by word because they care about reaching the max performance in that group.
That's not how it works though. Not all these meta sets work on each fight the best.
That's exactly how it works. That's why they are called meta sets. META = Most Effective Tactic Available.
It's this kind of ingorance what makes wrobel injore you. How about you actually think about the question for once instead of arguing in my threads.
The question is asking about the scope of the subject there are only a few usable sets. It's to discuss the actual problem not enforce just one belief.
This kinda of attitude doesn't solve Problems but create them.
"What I say is the meta"
I'm beginning to see why you're a former class rep if you get triggered so easily. Literally nothing Liofa said was incorrect or trying to "force a belief."
Nah I just don't like liofa and they know it very well for a long time. It's fine to desagree with others, but they constantly don't look at others point of view and make sure to enforce that what they believe is the only way. When is the last time you seen a "current" class rep ask community and not discord how they feel about a subject? Exactly ..my point, there is only my way or it's wrong is problematic thinking.
Since when is Discord not part of the ESO community? Just because all of us elitist *** are on there doesn't make Discord not a part of the community. If anything, us elitist *** are the ones with the most pertinent knowledge to improve the game...
To be honest, I've never seen a game improved by "elitism"
All it does is alienate other players, replace variety with conformity and leads generally to a less interesting game play experience obsessed with speed and lame DPS epeen comparisons.
They may be part of "the community". But it's definitely debatable on whether or not it's a productive part of it.
Last I checked, to know how to change the system, you need an in-depth understanding of how the system works. IMHO, players who do not play at a high level (i.e. casual players, solo players, RPers, etc.) do not possess that level of knowledge to know how their proposed changes will impact the game's overall health.
I have seen countless suggestions or pieces of "advice" that are just ill-conceived or downright incorrect.
To be perfectly honest, casual players who have never put up a trials leaderboard score who think they know better than those who have put up those scores are actually the "elitists" in the community. That, to me, is the height of elitism: to think you know better than the experts without solid and tangible evidence.
The only suggestions I ever see "elitist" give on how to improve other sets is to buff them so they can do the same amount of damage as what ever silly "META" set up they are currently using. SO I would argue the exact opposite - in that they have a very shallow understanding of what MMORPGs are actually about. To them it's just a contest to do the most damage per second. That's all that seems to matter to them.
MMORPGs were a lot more interesting gameplay wise before "elitists" and their silly DPS charts came along. So I would argue they have done nothing for the "overall health" of this genre.
Wat even. You clearly have no experience in endgame PvE or PvP. Therefore, your suggestions are absolutely pointless. What buffs do solo players need when everything in overworld just melts if you have half a brain?
This doesn't make any sense to me.
I didn't even mention the "overworld". I've done plenty of endgame PvE. I've completed every Veteran DLC dungeon multiple times and done quite a few trials.
But that is beside the point.
My point was the only suggestion I ever see "elitists" offer to improve anything is to ADD MOAR DAMAGE. That is literally the only thing they seem to care about: to kill anything and everything as fast and efficiently as possible.
MMORPGs were never suppose to be some silly epeen contest to see who can rate the highest on some number chart. They were about creating your own unique character build that fit you and then teaming up with other players. It's not suppose to be some rat race to conform to what ever build does the most damage as possible and demand everyone else use it otherwise they are an impediment to the group. That is literally how elitists play MMORPGs. And if there is a more shallow or fundamentally flawed way to approach MMORPGs I can't think of one.
The most successful MMORPG of all time is WoW....and gear choice doesnt exist in that game at all...I'm not sure where you get the idea that choice is common in gear selection in most MMOs
WoW was not like that in the beginning. It has been streamlined and conformed over the years to appease those kind of attitudes - and much to that game's detriment too I would add. That game was a lot more interesting in the old days before they flattened the character development.
I would also point out the reason WoW is the most successful MMO of all time has nothing to do with its "gear choice". It has to do with the fact it was the first MMO to effectively market to China (the most populated country in the world). That is why their Asian servers are bigger than their North American Servers. It's also why the World of Warcraft Movie bombed here in the U.S. yet did well in China.
Don't know how gear worked back in classic but the model in the later years is totally different from ESO.
For one gear cap keep going up, you get another kind of grind doing harder content or loads of grinding getting better gear.
gear is also far more important than in ESO who if more about player skill.
Had been fun to see parses from some good player doing an parse with bis then with an crafted+ cheap overland and an easy to get monster set.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭T3hasiangod wrote: »
NoAre there really only a few usable sets?
The min/max crowd is obsessed with fractional percentages and everything that isn't current "meta" is labeled "trash" when in reality many, many sets are perfectly viable.
Meta chasers have extreme tunnel vision.
The difference between meta and most "trash" is tiny. There are many gear combinations that can perform within 1% of meta.
Citation needed
Use your dummy ...
5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In all honesty, talk of meta and how one "should" do this else they are just "bringing down" the group or "not being a team player" is kinda depressing. It makes me less interested in end-game content, due to elitist attitudes and a lack of flexibility. If you aren't meta, you aren't in.
Why deal with toxic elitist players if you don't have to?
As for sets themselves, I do like how there's a lot of variety in them, but I'm less happy how obfuscated thing seem at times. It makes it difficult to experiment with builds when no one bothers to lay out exactly what all abilities/skills/sets/etc does. My latest gripe is "x damage over z duration" vs. "x damage every y time for z duration" -- the former is considered a DoT for purposes of CP or other bonuses, whereas the latter is not, even if they are effectively the same otherwise; this is not communicated anywhere. But this lack of clarity (and this is just one example) is frustrating. And builds you see on Youtube or Alcast or wherever rarely bother to explain why to use certain things, or how one thing interacts with another... I dunno. Frankly, the whole lot is discouraging.
I won't deal with them. Which is why I avoid those kind of smug endgame guilds like the plague.
Unfortunately these players are not so elite and awesome that they are above pugging dungeons with the rest of us peasants. And that's when I start having a problem with them. When they start trying to kick or harass other players simply because they don't measure up to their own self-entitled and unreasonable standards.
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hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »
This made me laugh, not gonna lie ^^
On a serious note, there are only few sets (for each role) that are actually good; mathematically and practically. This will always be the case, whatever devs do. If you rate the best sets 10/10, others fall behind. Some are 9, some are 1 out of 10. If a player cares about the group and its performance, they should go for the 10/10 sets. It's basic logic and a part of being a teamplayer. That's why I said on my first post that if you care about the group, there are only few sets to choose from. If not, do whatever you want.
There are many groups out there who don't care about max performance, including one of my own groups. We have Argonian DPS players, MagSorcs, Stam DDs in Cloudrest/Asylum etc. because we don't care. It's for fun. On the other hand, I am also in groups where raid leaders tell people what to use or swap characters even. Guess what, they follow word by word because they care about reaching the max performance in that group.
That's not how it works though. Not all these meta sets work on each fight the best.
That's exactly how it works. That's why they are called meta sets. META = Most Effective Tactic Available.
It's this kind of ingorance what makes wrobel injore you. How about you actually think about the question for once instead of arguing in my threads.
The question is asking about the scope of the subject there are only a few usable sets. It's to discuss the actual problem not enforce just one belief.
This kinda of attitude doesn't solve Problems but create them.
"What I say is the meta"
I'm beginning to see why you're a former class rep if you get triggered so easily. Literally nothing Liofa said was incorrect or trying to "force a belief."
Nah I just don't like liofa and they know it very well for a long time. It's fine to desagree with others, but they constantly don't look at others point of view and make sure to enforce that what they believe is the only way. When is the last time you seen a "current" class rep ask community and not discord how they feel about a subject? Exactly ..my point, there is only my way or it's wrong is problematic thinking.
Since when is Discord not part of the ESO community? Just because all of us elitist *** are on there doesn't make Discord not a part of the community. If anything, us elitist *** are the ones with the most pertinent knowledge to improve the game...
To be honest, I've never seen a game improved by "elitism"
All it does is alienate other players, replace variety with conformity and leads generally to a less interesting game play experience obsessed with speed and lame DPS epeen comparisons.
They may be part of "the community". But it's definitely debatable on whether or not it's a productive part of it.
Last I checked, to know how to change the system, you need an in-depth understanding of how the system works. IMHO, players who do not play at a high level (i.e. casual players, solo players, RPers, etc.) do not possess that level of knowledge to know how their proposed changes will impact the game's overall health.
I have seen countless suggestions or pieces of "advice" that are just ill-conceived or downright incorrect.
To be perfectly honest, casual players who have never put up a trials leaderboard score who think they know better than those who have put up those scores are actually the "elitists" in the community. That, to me, is the height of elitism: to think you know better than the experts without solid and tangible evidence.
The only suggestions I ever see "elitist" give on how to improve other sets is to buff them so they can do the same amount of damage as what ever silly "META" set up they are currently using. SO I would argue the exact opposite - in that they have a very shallow understanding of what MMORPGs are actually about. To them it's just a contest to do the most damage per second. That's all that seems to matter to them.
MMORPGs were a lot more interesting gameplay wise before "elitists" and their silly DPS charts came along. So I would argue they have done nothing for the "overall health" of this genre.
Wat even. You clearly have no experience in endgame PvE or PvP. Therefore, your suggestions are absolutely pointless. What buffs do solo players need when everything in overworld just melts if you have half a brain?
This doesn't make any sense to me.
I didn't even mention the "overworld". I've done plenty of endgame PvE. I've completed every Veteran DLC dungeon multiple times and done quite a few trials.
But that is beside the point.
My point was the only suggestion I ever see "elitists" offer to improve anything is to ADD MOAR DAMAGE. That is literally the only thing they seem to care about: to kill anything and everything as fast and efficiently as possible.
MMORPGs were never suppose to be some silly epeen contest to see who can rate the highest on some number chart. They were about creating your own unique character build that fit you and then teaming up with other players. It's not suppose to be some rat race to conform to what ever build does the most damage as possible and demand everyone else use it otherwise they are an impediment to the group. That is literally how elitists play MMORPGs. And if there is a more shallow or fundamentally flawed way to approach MMORPGs I can't think of one.
The most successful MMORPG of all time is WoW....and gear choice doesnt exist in that game at all...I'm not sure where you get the idea that choice is common in gear selection in most MMOs
WoW was not like that in the beginning. It has been streamlined and conformed over the years to appease those kind of attitudes - and much to that game's detriment too I would add. That game was a lot more interesting in the old days before they flattened the character development.
I would also point out the reason WoW is the most successful MMO of all time has nothing to do with its "gear choice". It has to do with the fact it was the first MMO to effectively market to China (the most populated country in the world). That is why their Asian servers are bigger than their North American Servers. It's also why the World of Warcraft Movie bombed here in the U.S. yet did well in China.
Going off of us numbers my point still stands
Except that It doesn't stand.
If you were to take China out of the equation WoW would not be nearly so successful. It's numbers would be on par with other games out there, including this one.
According to the latest information I can find - WoW currently has 900k active people on US realm and a million on its EU realms. Estimates are that ESO has 3 million players on there's.
Over half of WoW's population is from China.
At its peak the us population of players of WoW exceeded the peak of any other mmo to ever exist..0 -
T3hasiangod✭✭✭✭✭T3hasiangod wrote: »
NoAre there really only a few usable sets?
The min/max crowd is obsessed with fractional percentages and everything that isn't current "meta" is labeled "trash" when in reality many, many sets are perfectly viable.
Meta chasers have extreme tunnel vision.
The difference between meta and most "trash" is tiny. There are many gear combinations that can perform within 1% of meta.
Citation needed
Use your dummy ...
Funny, I have. Along with mathematically determining ability metrics for several common set combos. Few have come within 1 percent.
As the saying goes, "claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Today WOW is larger in China, but it won the MMO race back in 2005 because it was far more causal to get into than the competitors while having an very serious and deep endgame.hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »
This made me laugh, not gonna lie ^^
On a serious note, there are only few sets (for each role) that are actually good; mathematically and practically. This will always be the case, whatever devs do. If you rate the best sets 10/10, others fall behind. Some are 9, some are 1 out of 10. If a player cares about the group and its performance, they should go for the 10/10 sets. It's basic logic and a part of being a teamplayer. That's why I said on my first post that if you care about the group, there are only few sets to choose from. If not, do whatever you want.
There are many groups out there who don't care about max performance, including one of my own groups. We have Argonian DPS players, MagSorcs, Stam DDs in Cloudrest/Asylum etc. because we don't care. It's for fun. On the other hand, I am also in groups where raid leaders tell people what to use or swap characters even. Guess what, they follow word by word because they care about reaching the max performance in that group.
That's not how it works though. Not all these meta sets work on each fight the best.
That's exactly how it works. That's why they are called meta sets. META = Most Effective Tactic Available.
It's this kind of ingorance what makes wrobel injore you. How about you actually think about the question for once instead of arguing in my threads.
The question is asking about the scope of the subject there are only a few usable sets. It's to discuss the actual problem not enforce just one belief.
This kinda of attitude doesn't solve Problems but create them.
"What I say is the meta"
I'm beginning to see why you're a former class rep if you get triggered so easily. Literally nothing Liofa said was incorrect or trying to "force a belief."
Nah I just don't like liofa and they know it very well for a long time. It's fine to desagree with others, but they constantly don't look at others point of view and make sure to enforce that what they believe is the only way. When is the last time you seen a "current" class rep ask community and not discord how they feel about a subject? Exactly ..my point, there is only my way or it's wrong is problematic thinking.
Since when is Discord not part of the ESO community? Just because all of us elitist *** are on there doesn't make Discord not a part of the community. If anything, us elitist *** are the ones with the most pertinent knowledge to improve the game...
To be honest, I've never seen a game improved by "elitism"
All it does is alienate other players, replace variety with conformity and leads generally to a less interesting game play experience obsessed with speed and lame DPS epeen comparisons.
They may be part of "the community". But it's definitely debatable on whether or not it's a productive part of it.
Last I checked, to know how to change the system, you need an in-depth understanding of how the system works. IMHO, players who do not play at a high level (i.e. casual players, solo players, RPers, etc.) do not possess that level of knowledge to know how their proposed changes will impact the game's overall health.
I have seen countless suggestions or pieces of "advice" that are just ill-conceived or downright incorrect.
To be perfectly honest, casual players who have never put up a trials leaderboard score who think they know better than those who have put up those scores are actually the "elitists" in the community. That, to me, is the height of elitism: to think you know better than the experts without solid and tangible evidence.
The only suggestions I ever see "elitist" give on how to improve other sets is to buff them so they can do the same amount of damage as what ever silly "META" set up they are currently using. SO I would argue the exact opposite - in that they have a very shallow understanding of what MMORPGs are actually about. To them it's just a contest to do the most damage per second. That's all that seems to matter to them.
MMORPGs were a lot more interesting gameplay wise before "elitists" and their silly DPS charts came along. So I would argue they have done nothing for the "overall health" of this genre.
Wat even. You clearly have no experience in endgame PvE or PvP. Therefore, your suggestions are absolutely pointless. What buffs do solo players need when everything in overworld just melts if you have half a brain?
This doesn't make any sense to me.
I didn't even mention the "overworld". I've done plenty of endgame PvE. I've completed every Veteran DLC dungeon multiple times and done quite a few trials.
But that is beside the point.
My point was the only suggestion I ever see "elitists" offer to improve anything is to ADD MOAR DAMAGE. That is literally the only thing they seem to care about: to kill anything and everything as fast and efficiently as possible.
MMORPGs were never suppose to be some silly epeen contest to see who can rate the highest on some number chart. They were about creating your own unique character build that fit you and then teaming up with other players. It's not suppose to be some rat race to conform to what ever build does the most damage as possible and demand everyone else use it otherwise they are an impediment to the group. That is literally how elitists play MMORPGs. And if there is a more shallow or fundamentally flawed way to approach MMORPGs I can't think of one.
The most successful MMORPG of all time is WoW....and gear choice doesnt exist in that game at all...I'm not sure where you get the idea that choice is common in gear selection in most MMOs
WoW was not like that in the beginning. It has been streamlined and conformed over the years to appease those kind of attitudes - and much to that game's detriment too I would add. That game was a lot more interesting in the old days before they flattened the character development.
I would also point out the reason WoW is the most successful MMO of all time has nothing to do with its "gear choice". It has to do with the fact it was the first MMO to effectively market to China (the most populated country in the world). That is why their Asian servers are bigger than their North American Servers. It's also why the World of Warcraft Movie bombed here in the U.S. yet did well in China.
Don't know how gear worked back in classic but the model in the later years is totally different from ESO.
For one gear cap keep going up, you get another kind of grind doing harder content or loads of grinding getting better gear.
gear is also far more important than in ESO who if more about player skill.
Had been fun to see parses from some good player doing an parse with bis then with an crafted+ cheap overland and an easy to get monster set.
WoW did several things right early on that helped them win the casual crowd. That's true, so I can't argue that. For example: while other games were struggling with grouping issues WoW had a dungeon finder that made finding groups easy. The game also just ran a lot better than other games did at the time with very little lag (it still runs better than most every other game out there to be honest with you).
As far as gear vs player skill on ESO as it pertains to DPS, I would say player skill and using an effective rotation is probably paramount. But CP and good gear can definitely widen the berth between them. But as even my detractors are admitting on this thread - you do not need the top tier DPS that comes from the best gear to complete the content on this game. And that's as it should be. Not everyone is interested in topping the DPS charts or sees MMO gameplay as some kind of contest to do the most possible damage.Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2018 6:58PM0 -
kypranb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I think this question is heavily dependent on what content you're doing, and what type of players you're doing it with.
- Overland: Anything is viable, even if not optimal. This is due to the incredibly low difficulty level.
- Normal Dungeons/Trials: Anything is viable here as well, also due to the very low difficulty level.
- Veteran Dungeons: Almost anything is viable, though most prefer optimal sets to reduce the time to complete.
- Veteran Trials: I believe very few sets are actually viable here, and I will explain in a little more detail below.
- PVP(Cyrodiil/Battlegrounds): I think almost anything can be used here, as long as you build around something.
- PVP(Dueling): I think less stuff is viable here, due to not being able to rely on your teammates to cover your weaknesses.
I believe that is the average time to complete something goes up, most of the playerbase will restrict itself to using more optimal setups, thus reducing the overall time to complete. This is especially true when going for leaderboards, or doing dungeons/trials that would take forever "playing your own way."
I also believe that there is a portion of the playerbase willing to commit the time required to do some of the most difficult content without sticking to the meta.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »
This made me laugh, not gonna lie ^^
On a serious note, there are only few sets (for each role) that are actually good; mathematically and practically. This will always be the case, whatever devs do. If you rate the best sets 10/10, others fall behind. Some are 9, some are 1 out of 10. If a player cares about the group and its performance, they should go for the 10/10 sets. It's basic logic and a part of being a teamplayer. That's why I said on my first post that if you care about the group, there are only few sets to choose from. If not, do whatever you want.
There are many groups out there who don't care about max performance, including one of my own groups. We have Argonian DPS players, MagSorcs, Stam DDs in Cloudrest/Asylum etc. because we don't care. It's for fun. On the other hand, I am also in groups where raid leaders tell people what to use or swap characters even. Guess what, they follow word by word because they care about reaching the max performance in that group.
That's not how it works though. Not all these meta sets work on each fight the best.
That's exactly how it works. That's why they are called meta sets. META = Most Effective Tactic Available.
It's this kind of ingorance what makes wrobel injore you. How about you actually think about the question for once instead of arguing in my threads.
The question is asking about the scope of the subject there are only a few usable sets. It's to discuss the actual problem not enforce just one belief.
This kinda of attitude doesn't solve Problems but create them.
"What I say is the meta"
I'm beginning to see why you're a former class rep if you get triggered so easily. Literally nothing Liofa said was incorrect or trying to "force a belief."
Nah I just don't like liofa and they know it very well for a long time. It's fine to desagree with others, but they constantly don't look at others point of view and make sure to enforce that what they believe is the only way. When is the last time you seen a "current" class rep ask community and not discord how they feel about a subject? Exactly ..my point, there is only my way or it's wrong is problematic thinking.
Since when is Discord not part of the ESO community? Just because all of us elitist *** are on there doesn't make Discord not a part of the community. If anything, us elitist *** are the ones with the most pertinent knowledge to improve the game...
To be honest, I've never seen a game improved by "elitism"
All it does is alienate other players, replace variety with conformity and leads generally to a less interesting game play experience obsessed with speed and lame DPS epeen comparisons.
They may be part of "the community". But it's definitely debatable on whether or not it's a productive part of it.
Last I checked, to know how to change the system, you need an in-depth understanding of how the system works. IMHO, players who do not play at a high level (i.e. casual players, solo players, RPers, etc.) do not possess that level of knowledge to know how their proposed changes will impact the game's overall health.
I have seen countless suggestions or pieces of "advice" that are just ill-conceived or downright incorrect.
To be perfectly honest, casual players who have never put up a trials leaderboard score who think they know better than those who have put up those scores are actually the "elitists" in the community. That, to me, is the height of elitism: to think you know better than the experts without solid and tangible evidence.
The only suggestions I ever see "elitist" give on how to improve other sets is to buff them so they can do the same amount of damage as what ever silly "META" set up they are currently using. SO I would argue the exact opposite - in that they have a very shallow understanding of what MMORPGs are actually about. To them it's just a contest to do the most damage per second. That's all that seems to matter to them.
MMORPGs were a lot more interesting gameplay wise before "elitists" and their silly DPS charts came along. So I would argue they have done nothing for the "overall health" of this genre.
Wat even. You clearly have no experience in endgame PvE or PvP. Therefore, your suggestions are absolutely pointless. What buffs do solo players need when everything in overworld just melts if you have half a brain?
This doesn't make any sense to me.
I didn't even mention the "overworld". I've done plenty of endgame PvE. I've completed every Veteran DLC dungeon multiple times and done quite a few trials.
But that is beside the point.
My point was the only suggestion I ever see "elitists" offer to improve anything is to ADD MOAR DAMAGE. That is literally the only thing they seem to care about: to kill anything and everything as fast and efficiently as possible.
MMORPGs were never suppose to be some silly epeen contest to see who can rate the highest on some number chart. They were about creating your own unique character build that fit you and then teaming up with other players. It's not suppose to be some rat race to conform to what ever build does the most damage as possible and demand everyone else use it otherwise they are an impediment to the group. That is literally how elitists play MMORPGs. And if there is a more shallow or fundamentally flawed way to approach MMORPGs I can't think of one.
The most successful MMORPG of all time is WoW....and gear choice doesnt exist in that game at all...I'm not sure where you get the idea that choice is common in gear selection in most MMOs
WoW was not like that in the beginning. It has been streamlined and conformed over the years to appease those kind of attitudes - and much to that game's detriment too I would add. That game was a lot more interesting in the old days before they flattened the character development.
I would also point out the reason WoW is the most successful MMO of all time has nothing to do with its "gear choice". It has to do with the fact it was the first MMO to effectively market to China (the most populated country in the world). That is why their Asian servers are bigger than their North American Servers. It's also why the World of Warcraft Movie bombed here in the U.S. yet did well in China.
Going off of us numbers my point still stands
Except that It doesn't stand.
If you were to take China out of the equation WoW would not be nearly so successful. It's numbers would be on par with other games out there, including this one.
According to the latest information I can find - WoW currently has 900k active people on US realm and a million on its EU realms. Estimates are that ESO has 3 million players on there's.
Over half of WoW's population is from China.
At its peak the us population of players of WoW exceeded the peak of any other mmo to ever exist..
I'm talking about in 2018.
I'm not sure how its numbers in the U.S. during its supposed peak it's relevant to this discussion though. If the game's itemization was supposedly responsible for its popularity why then has the population dwindled in the United States? If we all loved limiting gear variety and forcing every class role into the same set why then isn't the game more popular now than ever?
Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2018 7:11PM0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Never run into elitists before, no I don't count players trying to kick an level 47 from an normal dlc or an cp140 from easy vet before first trash an elitist.In all honesty, talk of meta and how one "should" do this else they are just "bringing down" the group or "not being a team player" is kinda depressing. It makes me less interested in end-game content, due to elitist attitudes and a lack of flexibility. If you aren't meta, you aren't in.
Why deal with toxic elitist players if you don't have to?
As for sets themselves, I do like how there's a lot of variety in them, but I'm less happy how obfuscated thing seem at times. It makes it difficult to experiment with builds when no one bothers to lay out exactly what all abilities/skills/sets/etc does. My latest gripe is "x damage over z duration" vs. "x damage every y time for z duration" -- the former is considered a DoT for purposes of CP or other bonuses, whereas the latter is not, even if they are effectively the same otherwise; this is not communicated anywhere. But this lack of clarity (and this is just one example) is frustrating. And builds you see on Youtube or Alcast or wherever rarely bother to explain why to use certain things, or how one thing interacts with another... I dunno. Frankly, the whole lot is discouraging.
I won't deal with them. Which is why I avoid those kind of smug endgame guilds like the plague.
Unfortunately these players are not so elite and awesome that they are above pugging dungeons with the rest of us peasants. And that's when I start having a problem with them. When they start trying to kick or harass other players simply because they don't measure up to their own self-entitled and unreasonable standards.
This includes healing or tanking vet dlc with khajiits and group fails.
Worse has been "group sucks" before leaving group.
Now has run into some salty players but they has tried to be helpful and explained mechanic. Now again not all advice's was good like blocking all the time on an magic build does not work if you also have to dodge or break free.
And its not elitist to ask for healer to stay more on restoration staff if people are dying and yes i'm guilty.
Now I don't do vet trials and here things are probably different, rarely pugged vet dlc, weirdly they have worked better than guild runs, probably as most has been one or two dungeons then we agree to try the vet dlc while many guild runs has been some member wanting an monster helmet.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »
This made me laugh, not gonna lie ^^
On a serious note, there are only few sets (for each role) that are actually good; mathematically and practically. This will always be the case, whatever devs do. If you rate the best sets 10/10, others fall behind. Some are 9, some are 1 out of 10. If a player cares about the group and its performance, they should go for the 10/10 sets. It's basic logic and a part of being a teamplayer. That's why I said on my first post that if you care about the group, there are only few sets to choose from. If not, do whatever you want.
There are many groups out there who don't care about max performance, including one of my own groups. We have Argonian DPS players, MagSorcs, Stam DDs in Cloudrest/Asylum etc. because we don't care. It's for fun. On the other hand, I am also in groups where raid leaders tell people what to use or swap characters even. Guess what, they follow word by word because they care about reaching the max performance in that group.
That's not how it works though. Not all these meta sets work on each fight the best.
That's exactly how it works. That's why they are called meta sets. META = Most Effective Tactic Available.
It's this kind of ingorance what makes wrobel injore you. How about you actually think about the question for once instead of arguing in my threads.
The question is asking about the scope of the subject there are only a few usable sets. It's to discuss the actual problem not enforce just one belief.
This kinda of attitude doesn't solve Problems but create them.
"What I say is the meta"
I'm beginning to see why you're a former class rep if you get triggered so easily. Literally nothing Liofa said was incorrect or trying to "force a belief."
Nah I just don't like liofa and they know it very well for a long time. It's fine to desagree with others, but they constantly don't look at others point of view and make sure to enforce that what they believe is the only way. When is the last time you seen a "current" class rep ask community and not discord how they feel about a subject? Exactly ..my point, there is only my way or it's wrong is problematic thinking.
Since when is Discord not part of the ESO community? Just because all of us elitist *** are on there doesn't make Discord not a part of the community. If anything, us elitist *** are the ones with the most pertinent knowledge to improve the game...
To be honest, I've never seen a game improved by "elitism"
All it does is alienate other players, replace variety with conformity and leads generally to a less interesting game play experience obsessed with speed and lame DPS epeen comparisons.
They may be part of "the community". But it's definitely debatable on whether or not it's a productive part of it.
Last I checked, to know how to change the system, you need an in-depth understanding of how the system works. IMHO, players who do not play at a high level (i.e. casual players, solo players, RPers, etc.) do not possess that level of knowledge to know how their proposed changes will impact the game's overall health.
I have seen countless suggestions or pieces of "advice" that are just ill-conceived or downright incorrect.
To be perfectly honest, casual players who have never put up a trials leaderboard score who think they know better than those who have put up those scores are actually the "elitists" in the community. That, to me, is the height of elitism: to think you know better than the experts without solid and tangible evidence.
The only suggestions I ever see "elitist" give on how to improve other sets is to buff them so they can do the same amount of damage as what ever silly "META" set up they are currently using. SO I would argue the exact opposite - in that they have a very shallow understanding of what MMORPGs are actually about. To them it's just a contest to do the most damage per second. That's all that seems to matter to them.
MMORPGs were a lot more interesting gameplay wise before "elitists" and their silly DPS charts came along. So I would argue they have done nothing for the "overall health" of this genre.
Wat even. You clearly have no experience in endgame PvE or PvP. Therefore, your suggestions are absolutely pointless. What buffs do solo players need when everything in overworld just melts if you have half a brain?
This doesn't make any sense to me.
I didn't even mention the "overworld". I've done plenty of endgame PvE. I've completed every Veteran DLC dungeon multiple times and done quite a few trials.
But that is beside the point.
My point was the only suggestion I ever see "elitists" offer to improve anything is to ADD MOAR DAMAGE. That is literally the only thing they seem to care about: to kill anything and everything as fast and efficiently as possible.
MMORPGs were never suppose to be some silly epeen contest to see who can rate the highest on some number chart. They were about creating your own unique character build that fit you and then teaming up with other players. It's not suppose to be some rat race to conform to what ever build does the most damage as possible and demand everyone else use it otherwise they are an impediment to the group. That is literally how elitists play MMORPGs. And if there is a more shallow or fundamentally flawed way to approach MMORPGs I can't think of one.
The most successful MMORPG of all time is WoW....and gear choice doesnt exist in that game at all...I'm not sure where you get the idea that choice is common in gear selection in most MMOs
WoW was not like that in the beginning. It has been streamlined and conformed over the years to appease those kind of attitudes - and much to that game's detriment too I would add. That game was a lot more interesting in the old days before they flattened the character development.
I would also point out the reason WoW is the most successful MMO of all time has nothing to do with its "gear choice". It has to do with the fact it was the first MMO to effectively market to China (the most populated country in the world). That is why their Asian servers are bigger than their North American Servers. It's also why the World of Warcraft Movie bombed here in the U.S. yet did well in China.
Going off of us numbers my point still stands
Except that It doesn't stand.
If you were to take China out of the equation WoW would not be nearly so successful. It's numbers would be on par with other games out there, including this one.
According to the latest information I can find - WoW currently has 900k active people on US realm and a million on its EU realms. Estimates are that ESO has 3 million players on there's.
Over half of WoW's population is from China.
At its peak the us population of players of WoW exceeded the peak of any other mmo to ever exist..hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »
The bolded part is the problemT3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »
This made me laugh, not gonna lie ^^
On a serious note, there are only few sets (for each role) that are actually good; mathematically and practically. This will always be the case, whatever devs do. If you rate the best sets 10/10, others fall behind. Some are 9, some are 1 out of 10. If a player cares about the group and its performance, they should go for the 10/10 sets. It's basic logic and a part of being a teamplayer. That's why I said on my first post that if you care about the group, there are only few sets to choose from. If not, do whatever you want.
There are many groups out there who don't care about max performance, including one of my own groups. We have Argonian DPS players, MagSorcs, Stam DDs in Cloudrest/Asylum etc. because we don't care. It's for fun. On the other hand, I am also in groups where raid leaders tell people what to use or swap characters even. Guess what, they follow word by word because they care about reaching the max performance in that group.
That's not how it works though. Not all these meta sets work on each fight the best.
That's exactly how it works. That's why they are called meta sets. META = Most Effective Tactic Available.
It's this kind of ingorance what makes wrobel injore you. How about you actually think about the question for once instead of arguing in my threads.
The question is asking about the scope of the subject there are only a few usable sets. It's to discuss the actual problem not enforce just one belief.
This kinda of attitude doesn't solve Problems but create them.
"What I say is the meta"
I'm beginning to see why you're a former class rep if you get triggered so easily. Literally nothing Liofa said was incorrect or trying to "force a belief."
Nah I just don't like liofa and they know it very well for a long time. It's fine to desagree with others, but they constantly don't look at others point of view and make sure to enforce that what they believe is the only way. When is the last time you seen a "current" class rep ask community and not discord how they feel about a subject? Exactly ..my point, there is only my way or it's wrong is problematic thinking.
Since when is Discord not part of the ESO community? Just because all of us elitist *** are on there doesn't make Discord not a part of the community. If anything, us elitist *** are the ones with the most pertinent knowledge to improve the game...
To be honest, I've never seen a game improved by "elitism"
All it does is alienate other players, replace variety with conformity and leads generally to a less interesting game play experience obsessed with speed and lame DPS epeen comparisons.
They may be part of "the community". But it's definitely debatable on whether or not it's a productive part of it.
Last I checked, to know how to change the system, you need an in-depth understanding of how the system works. IMHO, players who do not play at a high level (i.e. casual players, solo players, RPers, etc.) do not possess that level of knowledge to know how their proposed changes will impact the game's overall health.
I have seen countless suggestions or pieces of "advice" that are just ill-conceived or downright incorrect.
To be perfectly honest, casual players who have never put up a trials leaderboard score who think they know better than those who have put up those scores are actually the "elitists" in the community. That, to me, is the height of elitism: to think you know better than the experts without solid and tangible evidence.
The only suggestions I ever see "elitist" give on how to improve other sets is to buff them so they can do the same amount of damage as what ever silly "META" set up they are currently using. SO I would argue the exact opposite - in that they have a very shallow understanding of what MMORPGs are actually about. To them it's just a contest to do the most damage per second. That's all that seems to matter to them.
Maybe.
But aside from obvious suggestions like fixing bugs and improving server performance - the only suggestions I ever see "elitist" make is for others to L2P and do more damage.
If you have some examples of their other worthy contributions to the community I"ll happily take a look at them.Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2018 7:20PM0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »
This made me laugh, not gonna lie ^^
On a serious note, there are only few sets (for each role) that are actually good; mathematically and practically. This will always be the case, whatever devs do. If you rate the best sets 10/10, others fall behind. Some are 9, some are 1 out of 10. If a player cares about the group and its performance, they should go for the 10/10 sets. It's basic logic and a part of being a teamplayer. That's why I said on my first post that if you care about the group, there are only few sets to choose from. If not, do whatever you want.
There are many groups out there who don't care about max performance, including one of my own groups. We have Argonian DPS players, MagSorcs, Stam DDs in Cloudrest/Asylum etc. because we don't care. It's for fun. On the other hand, I am also in groups where raid leaders tell people what to use or swap characters even. Guess what, they follow word by word because they care about reaching the max performance in that group.
That's not how it works though. Not all these meta sets work on each fight the best.
That's exactly how it works. That's why they are called meta sets. META = Most Effective Tactic Available.
It's this kind of ingorance what makes wrobel injore you. How about you actually think about the question for once instead of arguing in my threads.
The question is asking about the scope of the subject there are only a few usable sets. It's to discuss the actual problem not enforce just one belief.
This kinda of attitude doesn't solve Problems but create them.
"What I say is the meta"
I'm beginning to see why you're a former class rep if you get triggered so easily. Literally nothing Liofa said was incorrect or trying to "force a belief."
Nah I just don't like liofa and they know it very well for a long time. It's fine to desagree with others, but they constantly don't look at others point of view and make sure to enforce that what they believe is the only way. When is the last time you seen a "current" class rep ask community and not discord how they feel about a subject? Exactly ..my point, there is only my way or it's wrong is problematic thinking.
Since when is Discord not part of the ESO community? Just because all of us elitist *** are on there doesn't make Discord not a part of the community. If anything, us elitist *** are the ones with the most pertinent knowledge to improve the game...
To be honest, I've never seen a game improved by "elitism"
All it does is alienate other players, replace variety with conformity and leads generally to a less interesting game play experience obsessed with speed and lame DPS epeen comparisons.
They may be part of "the community". But it's definitely debatable on whether or not it's a productive part of it.
Last I checked, to know how to change the system, you need an in-depth understanding of how the system works. IMHO, players who do not play at a high level (i.e. casual players, solo players, RPers, etc.) do not possess that level of knowledge to know how their proposed changes will impact the game's overall health.
I have seen countless suggestions or pieces of "advice" that are just ill-conceived or downright incorrect.
To be perfectly honest, casual players who have never put up a trials leaderboard score who think they know better than those who have put up those scores are actually the "elitists" in the community. That, to me, is the height of elitism: to think you know better than the experts without solid and tangible evidence.
The only suggestions I ever see "elitist" give on how to improve other sets is to buff them so they can do the same amount of damage as what ever silly "META" set up they are currently using. SO I would argue the exact opposite - in that they have a very shallow understanding of what MMORPGs are actually about. To them it's just a contest to do the most damage per second. That's all that seems to matter to them.
MMORPGs were a lot more interesting gameplay wise before "elitists" and their silly DPS charts came along. So I would argue they have done nothing for the "overall health" of this genre.
Wat even. You clearly have no experience in endgame PvE or PvP. Therefore, your suggestions are absolutely pointless. What buffs do solo players need when everything in overworld just melts if you have half a brain?
This doesn't make any sense to me.
I didn't even mention the "overworld". I've done plenty of endgame PvE. I've completed every Veteran DLC dungeon multiple times and done quite a few trials.
But that is beside the point.
My point was the only suggestion I ever see "elitists" offer to improve anything is to ADD MOAR DAMAGE. That is literally the only thing they seem to care about: to kill anything and everything as fast and efficiently as possible.
MMORPGs were never suppose to be some silly epeen contest to see who can rate the highest on some number chart. They were about creating your own unique character build that fit you and then teaming up with other players. It's not suppose to be some rat race to conform to what ever build does the most damage as possible and demand everyone else use it otherwise they are an impediment to the group. That is literally how elitists play MMORPGs. And if there is a more shallow or fundamentally flawed way to approach MMORPGs I can't think of one.
The most successful MMORPG of all time is WoW....and gear choice doesnt exist in that game at all...I'm not sure where you get the idea that choice is common in gear selection in most MMOs
WoW was not like that in the beginning. It has been streamlined and conformed over the years to appease those kind of attitudes - and much to that game's detriment too I would add. That game was a lot more interesting in the old days before they flattened the character development.
I would also point out the reason WoW is the most successful MMO of all time has nothing to do with its "gear choice". It has to do with the fact it was the first MMO to effectively market to China (the most populated country in the world). That is why their Asian servers are bigger than their North American Servers. It's also why the World of Warcraft Movie bombed here in the U.S. yet did well in China.
Going off of us numbers my point still stands
Except that It doesn't stand.
If you were to take China out of the equation WoW would not be nearly so successful. It's numbers would be on par with other games out there, including this one.
According to the latest information I can find - WoW currently has 900k active people on US realm and a million on its EU realms. Estimates are that ESO has 3 million players on there's.
Over half of WoW's population is from China.
At its peak the us population of players of WoW exceeded the peak of any other mmo to ever exist..
I'm talking about in 2018.
I'm not sure how its numbers in the U.S. during its supposed peak it's relevant to this discussion though. If the game's itemization was supposedly responsible for its popularity why then has the population dwindled in the United States? If we all loved limiting gear variety and forcing every class role into the same set why then isn't the game more popular now than ever?
You cant compare a game's numbers in 2018 to others when it came out in 2004...obviously it's going to be hard to compete when it's that old. That being said the fact that the game was so successful for so long especially since MmO genre existed before and still exists now clearly means that their model was successful. That being said it has nothing really to do with this discussion. This discussion is about gear options. The gear options are few when it comes to the meta. Removal of usefulness of sunderflame and NMG contributed to this. What should be done is gear choices based on group synergy. Instead of removing usefulness of sets we should get more sets that boost group performance instead of individual performance...Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on December 29, 2018 7:51PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
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Never run into elitists before, no I don't count players trying to kick an level 47 from an normal dlc or an cp140 from easy vet before first trash an elitist.In all honesty, talk of meta and how one "should" do this else they are just "bringing down" the group or "not being a team player" is kinda depressing. It makes me less interested in end-game content, due to elitist attitudes and a lack of flexibility. If you aren't meta, you aren't in.
Why deal with toxic elitist players if you don't have to?
As for sets themselves, I do like how there's a lot of variety in them, but I'm less happy how obfuscated thing seem at times. It makes it difficult to experiment with builds when no one bothers to lay out exactly what all abilities/skills/sets/etc does. My latest gripe is "x damage over z duration" vs. "x damage every y time for z duration" -- the former is considered a DoT for purposes of CP or other bonuses, whereas the latter is not, even if they are effectively the same otherwise; this is not communicated anywhere. But this lack of clarity (and this is just one example) is frustrating. And builds you see on Youtube or Alcast or wherever rarely bother to explain why to use certain things, or how one thing interacts with another... I dunno. Frankly, the whole lot is discouraging.
I won't deal with them. Which is why I avoid those kind of smug endgame guilds like the plague.
Unfortunately these players are not so elite and awesome that they are above pugging dungeons with the rest of us peasants. And that's when I start having a problem with them. When they start trying to kick or harass other players simply because they don't measure up to their own self-entitled and unreasonable standards.
You should count those.
Anyone who kicks a CP 140 from an easy vet dungeon before the first trash pull is an elitist _____.Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2018 7:37PM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DivineFirstYOLO wrote: »Yes, too many sets are outdated or simply trash. Of course if your goal is to simply role play in a tavern you can wear what ever set you want, you may also waste your time however you want, right?
Anyway, let's just take a look at the crafted sets. More than 50% of them are completely useless/weak.
- Adept Rider: Seriously who is using this?
- Alessia's Bulwark: Jesus Christ, weak 5p, 5 sec duration lmao.
- Ashen Grip: A stam set that gives a 1118 fire dmg proc - GG.
- Assassin's Guile: Not good enough since 2-4p are conflictive.
- Death's Wind: New players set. Just bad.
- Kvatch Gladiator: when your enemy is below 25% health you can simply execute which will deal more dmg.
- Might of the Lost Legion: ZOS must have been out of ideas.
- Morkuldin: Weak, compare to proc chance and damage of viper/sloads.
- Night's Silence: RP set, since RP is for casuals this set is useless.
- Noble's Conquest: How many interruptable skills are there hmm? Not enough to make this any good.
- Oblivion's Foe: No comment.
- Redistributor: Wow, 2347 heal every 3 seconds for one ally, I rather buff my healing spring and heal 6 targets at that time.
- Shalidor's Curse: Useless for PvE, values halfed in PvP, trash.
- Song of Lamae: I would like to see statistics of how many people every used this set. Probably close to 0.
- Twilight's Embrace: No thanks, I'd rather use the Naga Shaman set.
- Vampire's Kiss: Again out of ideas it seems.
- Varen's Legacy: Could have potential, but very weak right now.
- Whitestrake's Retribution: what is this good for? A tanking set? Rather get something useful instead.
..and that's only the craftable sets..
Buff/change some of them to get some diversity.
I'm going to stick up for Whitestrake's Retribution here.
Best training wheels set there is for newbie tanks.
Because the 10k shield procs whenever you hit 30% health, its perfect for saving you from mistakes while you are learning mechanics. And once the damage shield stops proccing, you know you aren't making as many mistakes and can move on to "better" and more useful sets.
See, there's a difference between "completely useless" and "outclassed by better gear". Whitestrakes is outclassed, but not completely without use.
That's true of a lot of utility sets.Edited by VaranisArano on December 29, 2018 7:42PM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It comes down to interests. For pure PvE DPS there are probably a handful or two sets that are very viable but the definition is very narrow since the player has to hit certain numbers which comes down to math. For PvP the window is larger as it depends in how one is playing which is more than just putting out some damage.
Toss in the variable interests in this game since not everyone wants to raid competitively then the number of sets that get used grows significantly.
As a raider I can say that those who say there are only small number of useful sets are those with very narrow interest and do not take into consideration other playstyles like hybrids and those who put together builds they think are fun. That does not mean there are some sets.2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »
This made me laugh, not gonna lie ^^
On a serious note, there are only few sets (for each role) that are actually good; mathematically and practically. This will always be the case, whatever devs do. If you rate the best sets 10/10, others fall behind. Some are 9, some are 1 out of 10. If a player cares about the group and its performance, they should go for the 10/10 sets. It's basic logic and a part of being a teamplayer. That's why I said on my first post that if you care about the group, there are only few sets to choose from. If not, do whatever you want.
There are many groups out there who don't care about max performance, including one of my own groups. We have Argonian DPS players, MagSorcs, Stam DDs in Cloudrest/Asylum etc. because we don't care. It's for fun. On the other hand, I am also in groups where raid leaders tell people what to use or swap characters even. Guess what, they follow word by word because they care about reaching the max performance in that group.
That's not how it works though. Not all these meta sets work on each fight the best.
That's exactly how it works. That's why they are called meta sets. META = Most Effective Tactic Available.
It's this kind of ingorance what makes wrobel injore you. How about you actually think about the question for once instead of arguing in my threads.
The question is asking about the scope of the subject there are only a few usable sets. It's to discuss the actual problem not enforce just one belief.
This kinda of attitude doesn't solve Problems but create them.
"What I say is the meta"
I'm beginning to see why you're a former class rep if you get triggered so easily. Literally nothing Liofa said was incorrect or trying to "force a belief."
Nah I just don't like liofa and they know it very well for a long time. It's fine to desagree with others, but they constantly don't look at others point of view and make sure to enforce that what they believe is the only way. When is the last time you seen a "current" class rep ask community and not discord how they feel about a subject? Exactly ..my point, there is only my way or it's wrong is problematic thinking.
Since when is Discord not part of the ESO community? Just because all of us elitist *** are on there doesn't make Discord not a part of the community. If anything, us elitist *** are the ones with the most pertinent knowledge to improve the game...
To be honest, I've never seen a game improved by "elitism"
All it does is alienate other players, replace variety with conformity and leads generally to a less interesting game play experience obsessed with speed and lame DPS epeen comparisons.
They may be part of "the community". But it's definitely debatable on whether or not it's a productive part of it.
Last I checked, to know how to change the system, you need an in-depth understanding of how the system works. IMHO, players who do not play at a high level (i.e. casual players, solo players, RPers, etc.) do not possess that level of knowledge to know how their proposed changes will impact the game's overall health.
I have seen countless suggestions or pieces of "advice" that are just ill-conceived or downright incorrect.
To be perfectly honest, casual players who have never put up a trials leaderboard score who think they know better than those who have put up those scores are actually the "elitists" in the community. That, to me, is the height of elitism: to think you know better than the experts without solid and tangible evidence.
The only suggestions I ever see "elitist" give on how to improve other sets is to buff them so they can do the same amount of damage as what ever silly "META" set up they are currently using. SO I would argue the exact opposite - in that they have a very shallow understanding of what MMORPGs are actually about. To them it's just a contest to do the most damage per second. That's all that seems to matter to them.
MMORPGs were a lot more interesting gameplay wise before "elitists" and their silly DPS charts came along. So I would argue they have done nothing for the "overall health" of this genre.
Wat even. You clearly have no experience in endgame PvE or PvP. Therefore, your suggestions are absolutely pointless. What buffs do solo players need when everything in overworld just melts if you have half a brain?
This doesn't make any sense to me.
I didn't even mention the "overworld". I've done plenty of endgame PvE. I've completed every Veteran DLC dungeon multiple times and done quite a few trials.
But that is beside the point.
My point was the only suggestion I ever see "elitists" offer to improve anything is to ADD MOAR DAMAGE. That is literally the only thing they seem to care about: to kill anything and everything as fast and efficiently as possible.
MMORPGs were never suppose to be some silly epeen contest to see who can rate the highest on some number chart. They were about creating your own unique character build that fit you and then teaming up with other players. It's not suppose to be some rat race to conform to what ever build does the most damage as possible and demand everyone else use it otherwise they are an impediment to the group. That is literally how elitists play MMORPGs. And if there is a more shallow or fundamentally flawed way to approach MMORPGs I can't think of one.
The most successful MMORPG of all time is WoW....and gear choice doesnt exist in that game at all...I'm not sure where you get the idea that choice is common in gear selection in most MMOs
WoW was not like that in the beginning. It has been streamlined and conformed over the years to appease those kind of attitudes - and much to that game's detriment too I would add. That game was a lot more interesting in the old days before they flattened the character development.
I would also point out the reason WoW is the most successful MMO of all time has nothing to do with its "gear choice". It has to do with the fact it was the first MMO to effectively market to China (the most populated country in the world). That is why their Asian servers are bigger than their North American Servers. It's also why the World of Warcraft Movie bombed here in the U.S. yet did well in China.
Going off of us numbers my point still stands
Except that It doesn't stand.
If you were to take China out of the equation WoW would not be nearly so successful. It's numbers would be on par with other games out there, including this one.
According to the latest information I can find - WoW currently has 900k active people on US realm and a million on its EU realms. Estimates are that ESO has 3 million players on there's.
Over half of WoW's population is from China.
At its peak the us population of players of WoW exceeded the peak of any other mmo to ever exist..
I'm talking about in 2018.
I'm not sure how its numbers in the U.S. during its supposed peak it's relevant to this discussion though. If the game's itemization was supposedly responsible for its popularity why then has the population dwindled in the United States? If we all loved limiting gear variety and forcing every class role into the same set why then isn't the game more popular now than ever?
You cant compare a game's numbers in 2018 to others when it came out in 2004...obviously it's going to be hard to compete when it's that old. That being said the fact that the game was so successful for so long especially since MmO genre existed before and still exists now clearly means that their model was successful. That being said it has nothing really to do with this discussion. This discussion is about gear options. The gear options are few when it comes to the meta. Removal of usefulness of sunderflame and NMG contributed to this. What should be done is gear choices based on group synergy. Instead of removing usefulness of sets we should get more sets that boost group performance instead of individual performance...
If I remember correctly, you attempted to bring up Wow's success in the context of its gear itemization and used that to bolster your argument that MMO players actually enjoy the way WoW limits it's gear options. So I think it was fair for me to point out how it's numbers have dwindled since those changes were put in place.
Anyway, the only way to balance gear in such a way to appease "elitists" would be to literally make every set do the same amount of damage - because they literally freak out over a 1% increase. So at that point - you may as well just have one set of gear for DPS. It's just a ridiculous way to try and "balance" MMORPGs in my opinion.
The best way to balance gear is to simply make them useful in some way. They don't all need to do max DPS to be good. So long as they actually do something that is significantly useful they should be fine.
Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2018 7:40PM1 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I have yet to run into an issue where any player has an issue with my gear and refuses to do content with me. I imagine for others its a bit undaunting, or they simply don't care.0 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭There are definitely a few optimal sets for each build, role and class but most of the sets (depending on their spec) are good enough.
I will admit that some sets are just plain awful0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »oXI_Viper_IXo wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »
This made me laugh, not gonna lie ^^
On a serious note, there are only few sets (for each role) that are actually good; mathematically and practically. This will always be the case, whatever devs do. If you rate the best sets 10/10, others fall behind. Some are 9, some are 1 out of 10. If a player cares about the group and its performance, they should go for the 10/10 sets. It's basic logic and a part of being a teamplayer. That's why I said on my first post that if you care about the group, there are only few sets to choose from. If not, do whatever you want.
There are many groups out there who don't care about max performance, including one of my own groups. We have Argonian DPS players, MagSorcs, Stam DDs in Cloudrest/Asylum etc. because we don't care. It's for fun. On the other hand, I am also in groups where raid leaders tell people what to use or swap characters even. Guess what, they follow word by word because they care about reaching the max performance in that group.
That's not how it works though. Not all these meta sets work on each fight the best.
That's exactly how it works. That's why they are called meta sets. META = Most Effective Tactic Available.
It's this kind of ingorance what makes wrobel injore you. How about you actually think about the question for once instead of arguing in my threads.
The question is asking about the scope of the subject there are only a few usable sets. It's to discuss the actual problem not enforce just one belief.
This kinda of attitude doesn't solve Problems but create them.
"What I say is the meta"
I'm beginning to see why you're a former class rep if you get triggered so easily. Literally nothing Liofa said was incorrect or trying to "force a belief."
Nah I just don't like liofa and they know it very well for a long time. It's fine to desagree with others, but they constantly don't look at others point of view and make sure to enforce that what they believe is the only way. When is the last time you seen a "current" class rep ask community and not discord how they feel about a subject? Exactly ..my point, there is only my way or it's wrong is problematic thinking.
Since when is Discord not part of the ESO community? Just because all of us elitist *** are on there doesn't make Discord not a part of the community. If anything, us elitist *** are the ones with the most pertinent knowledge to improve the game...
To be honest, I've never seen a game improved by "elitism"
All it does is alienate other players, replace variety with conformity and leads generally to a less interesting game play experience obsessed with speed and lame DPS epeen comparisons.
They may be part of "the community". But it's definitely debatable on whether or not it's a productive part of it.
Last I checked, to know how to change the system, you need an in-depth understanding of how the system works. IMHO, players who do not play at a high level (i.e. casual players, solo players, RPers, etc.) do not possess that level of knowledge to know how their proposed changes will impact the game's overall health.
I have seen countless suggestions or pieces of "advice" that are just ill-conceived or downright incorrect.
To be perfectly honest, casual players who have never put up a trials leaderboard score who think they know better than those who have put up those scores are actually the "elitists" in the community. That, to me, is the height of elitism: to think you know better than the experts without solid and tangible evidence.
The only suggestions I ever see "elitist" give on how to improve other sets is to buff them so they can do the same amount of damage as what ever silly "META" set up they are currently using. SO I would argue the exact opposite - in that they have a very shallow understanding of what MMORPGs are actually about. To them it's just a contest to do the most damage per second. That's all that seems to matter to them.
MMORPGs were a lot more interesting gameplay wise before "elitists" and their silly DPS charts came along. So I would argue they have done nothing for the "overall health" of this genre.
Wat even. You clearly have no experience in endgame PvE or PvP. Therefore, your suggestions are absolutely pointless. What buffs do solo players need when everything in overworld just melts if you have half a brain?
This doesn't make any sense to me.
I didn't even mention the "overworld". I've done plenty of endgame PvE. I've completed every Veteran DLC dungeon multiple times and done quite a few trials.
But that is beside the point.
My point was the only suggestion I ever see "elitists" offer to improve anything is to ADD MOAR DAMAGE. That is literally the only thing they seem to care about: to kill anything and everything as fast and efficiently as possible.
MMORPGs were never suppose to be some silly epeen contest to see who can rate the highest on some number chart. They were about creating your own unique character build that fit you and then teaming up with other players. It's not suppose to be some rat race to conform to what ever build does the most damage as possible and demand everyone else use it otherwise they are an impediment to the group. That is literally how elitists play MMORPGs. And if there is a more shallow or fundamentally flawed way to approach MMORPGs I can't think of one.
The most successful MMORPG of all time is WoW....and gear choice doesnt exist in that game at all...I'm not sure where you get the idea that choice is common in gear selection in most MMOs
WoW was not like that in the beginning. It has been streamlined and conformed over the years to appease those kind of attitudes - and much to that game's detriment too I would add. That game was a lot more interesting in the old days before they flattened the character development.
I would also point out the reason WoW is the most successful MMO of all time has nothing to do with its "gear choice". It has to do with the fact it was the first MMO to effectively market to China (the most populated country in the world). That is why their Asian servers are bigger than their North American Servers. It's also why the World of Warcraft Movie bombed here in the U.S. yet did well in China.
Going off of us numbers my point still stands
Except that It doesn't stand.
If you were to take China out of the equation WoW would not be nearly so successful. It's numbers would be on par with other games out there, including this one.
According to the latest information I can find - WoW currently has 900k active people on US realm and a million on its EU realms. Estimates are that ESO has 3 million players on there's.
Over half of WoW's population is from China.
At its peak the us population of players of WoW exceeded the peak of any other mmo to ever exist..
I'm talking about in 2018.
I'm not sure how its numbers in the U.S. during its supposed peak it's relevant to this discussion though. If the game's itemization was supposedly responsible for its popularity why then has the population dwindled in the United States? If we all loved limiting gear variety and forcing every class role into the same set why then isn't the game more popular now than ever?
You cant compare a game's numbers in 2018 to others when it came out in 2004...obviously it's going to be hard to compete when it's that old. That being said the fact that the game was so successful for so long especially since MmO genre existed before and still exists now clearly means that their model was successful. That being said it has nothing really to do with this discussion. This discussion is about gear options. The gear options are few when it comes to the meta. Removal of usefulness of sunderflame and NMG contributed to this. What should be done is gear choices based on group synergy. Instead of removing usefulness of sets we should get more sets that boost group performance instead of individual performance...
If I remember correctly, you attempted to bring up Wow's success in the context of its gear itemization and used that to bolster your argument that MMO players actually enjoy the way WoW limits it's gear options. So I think it was fair for me to point out how it's numbers have dwindled since those changes were put in place.
Anyway, the only way to balance gear in such a way to appease "elitists" would be to literally make every set do the same amount of damage - because they literally freak out over a 1% increase. So at that point - you may as well just have one set of gear for DPS. It's just a ridiculous way to try and "balance" MMORPGs in my opinion.
The best way to balance gear is to simply make them useful in some way. They don't need all need to do max DPS to be good. So long as they actually do something that is significantly useful they should be fine.
I bolded the jist of my comment for you since you dont seem to fully read them. The usefulness you talk about is being intentionally removed by the devs. The players advocating for changes have been asking for exactly the things that have been removed. They asked for gear diversity via group support. This is the main way to ensure endgame gearing options are diverse. The devs, however went the complete opposite way. The problem isnt the players, the problem is a dev team that has not yet been fired even though a single class has dominated endgame PvE for nearly a year. Such negligence and incompetence is unparalleled at least in my experience.
Finally in terms of the 1%...the difference is a lot bigger than that if you bother testing.Edited by hedna123b14_ESO on December 29, 2018 7:56PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[removed quote]
I'm pretty sure I read your whole post. You were suggesting they should try balancing gear by making them improve "group performance" instead of individual performance. A suggestion I really didn't have a problem with - nor did I feel my comment conflicted with in any way. I"m all for adding more support sets. That would certainly add something useful - so that was compatible with my response.. Though this will be more difficult than it should be due to the fact this game doesn't have a role for the support class (like it should).
As to your last point - fine, say it's 3% or 5%. What ever measly percentage you want to attach to it. The point is the same. They will freak out and call it crap if another set outperforms it by a few percentage points. So there is really no satisfying them. They are always going to gravitate toward what ever set does the most damage and the only way to balance gear to their satisfaction would be to make every set do the exact same amount of damage - which would of course wipe out the point of having a diversity of gear sets to begin with. That's why games that decide to cater to that kind of mentality (like WoW) just end up having a single gear set for each class role. Boring if you ask me.Edited by ZOS_JesC on December 30, 2018 6:27PM0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭[removed quote]
Ok, but this brings it back to my original point. You can wear magicka gear sets on a stamina class and still pass any in game dps checks, so my question to you is where do you draw the line? If 5% isnt a big deal, at which % do you start calling a set crap? 10%? 20%? 50%?
Where do YOU draw your arbitrary line?
Edited by ZOS_JesC on December 30, 2018 6:27PM0 -
ZOS_RogerJ✭✭✭✭Just a reminder, to keep the thread open, please keep the thread on-topic, constructive and civil, as several posts have been removed for violating various community rules that we've all agreed to.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[removed quote]
I thought I had already said. I draw the line at being able to complete the content. So long as they are capable of contributing enough damage to kill the boss, I believe they meet their obligations to the group.
I differ with you in this respect - because I believe the in-game DPS checks are sufficient. There is no way for example a DPS spamming light attacks and wearing inappropriate gear is going to be able to take out the adds fast enough against that Nesh in Dark Shade 2 or be able to kill an add before the assassin in Fungul Grotto 2 stabs their victim to death. These DPS checks are more significant than you are making them out to be. I know this for a fact.
Even though I play as a tank and healer I took some time to experiment as a DPS the other day and it's not as brain dead easy to pass these checks as some make them out to be - especially if you don't have CP or optimized gear. It does require an competent rotation and DPS-oriented gear. Now I'm sure those requirements lessen as one obtains more CP and better gear - and this of course assumes there isn't another high-level/well-geared DPS carrying the other.Edited by ZOS_JesC on December 30, 2018 6:28PM1 -
Nolic1✭✭✭Ok I will give my thoughts on this and have to Quote @T3hasiangod on his video.
https://youtu.be/HLdQ3qaxmEM
See I am not a meta player not because it does not work or shows the best results its because it does not offer me the build structure I enjoy or if you will the playstyle.
META by its true meaning is this.
1. Meta means about the thing itself. It's seeing the thing from a higher perspective instead of from within the thing, like being self-aware.
2. A term used in mmo meaning the Most Effective Tactic Available. It's basically what works in a game regardless of what you wish would work.
Now what does this mean Most Effective Tactic Available. Well it is a combination of class, race, skills, GEAR, traits, mundus and cp broken up into ether 4 or 12 different builds creating a group dynamic that offers the best results in a certain activity and that is why ESO meta is so singular is there are no other tools in the game that offer a better option in the end results. Now its not saying the tools they used can not be used other ways to get the same setup but the end math results do not fair the same.
So in truth the gear you need to reach end game to get that trial gear works for that and more its just that it does not show the same results math wise to equal the meta.
Also you can not use PvP in Cyrodill as an option cause the group dynamic there is so open ended. Battle grounds could have a Meta but it will change alot do to the inclusion of new sets and play styles that the game has to offer you can not have a singular meta.
Also I never asked this of you @T3hasiangod but could you do a sword and shield dps build with a rotation for those out there that would like that build type I ask cause I am not as skilled at rotations as you are.
P.S. This does not mean agree the meta is the only option far from it but I understand and know why its used.Edited by Nolic1 on December 29, 2018 8:19PMSherman from Sherman's Gaming
Youtube content creator that is dedicated to the Casual and Roleplay community for News, Lets Talks, Guides, Help and character builds.
Youtube channel link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭[removed quote]
So then by your definition all sets are viable then and there are no bad sets. In that case how do we distinguish between worse and better sets?Edited by ZOS_JesC on December 30, 2018 6:28PM0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ok I will give my thoughts on this and have to Quote @T3hasiangod on his video.https://youtu.be/HLdQ3qaxmEM
See I am not a meta player not because it does not work or shows the best results its because it does not offer me the build structure I enjoy or if you will the playstyle.
META by its true meaning is this.
1. Meta means about the thing itself. It's seeing the thing from a higher perspective instead of from within the thing, like being self-aware.
2. A term used in mmo meaning the Most Effective Tactic Available. It's basically what works in a game regardless of what you wish would work.
Now what does this mean Most Effective Tactic Available. Well it is a combination of class, race, skills, GEAR, traits, mundus and cp broken up into ether 4 or 12 different builds creating a group dynamic that offers the best results in a certain activity and that is why ESO meta is so singular is there are no other tools in the game that offer a better option in the end results. Now its not saying the tools they used can not be used other ways to get the same setup but the end math results do not fair the same.
So in truth the gear you need to reach end game to get that trial gear works for that and more its just that it does not show the same results math wise to equal the meta.
Also you can not use PvP in Cyrodill as an option cause the group dynamic there is so open ended. Battle grounds could have a Meta but it will change alot do to the inclusion of new sets and play styles that the game has to offer you can not have a singular meta.
Also I never asked this of you @T3hasiangod but could you do a sword and shield dps build with a rotation for those out there that would like that build type I ask cause I am not as skilled at rotations as you are.
P.S. This does not mean agree the meta is the only option far from it but I understand and know why its used.
FYI here is something from 3 months ago for *** and giggles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8MtOEfBy6o 0 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I never watched any of his videos, so thanks for posting that. I'm glad to see that my forum post radar is still working properly, he's everything i thought he would be.Ok I will give my thoughts on this and have to Quote @T3hasiangod on his video.
3 -
Nolic1✭✭✭@heng14rwb17_ESO Ok that was cool I will admit I never thought of using a templar for it thats some skill.Sherman from Sherman's Gaming
Youtube content creator that is dedicated to the Casual and Roleplay community for News, Lets Talks, Guides, Help and character builds.
Youtube channel link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw0 -
Nolic1✭✭✭
I never watched any of his videos, so thanks for posting that. I'm glad to see that my forum post radar is still working properly, he's everything i thought he would be.Ok I will give my thoughts on this and have to Quote @T3hasiangod on his video.
And I was not sharing his thoughts to be rude to him his work shows he knows the meta and how it works very well I did it cause I respect his work even if I do not agree to the idea of a meta.Sherman from Sherman's Gaming
Youtube content creator that is dedicated to the Casual and Roleplay community for News, Lets Talks, Guides, Help and character builds.
Youtube channel link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[removed quote]
I didn't say that, because I disagree with your premise that any set will allow players to pass the in-game DPS checks. I have a hard time believing that, especially for a beginning DPSer who is just starting off in Veteran Dungeons who doesn't have the added benefit of CP. Unless they are being carried that is.
As far as how each person distinguishes between worse and better sets - that would depend on the individual player's priorities and what is most important to them. Damage should of course be a priority for any damage-dealer - but it shouldn't always be the only concern.
I believe if players want to sacrifice some of their damage for other benefits then that's fine, just so long as they don't gimp their damage to the point they can no longer function as an effective damage-dealer capable of contributing enough damage to beat the content. I would say the same of a healer or tank - or any character build for that matter. For example: a healer does not have to wear what ever gear combination gives him or her the highest healing per second. If they want to sacrifice some HPS for more offense or defense that's fine, just so long as it they don't gimp their ability to heal to the point they can no longer function as an effective healer.
It shouldn't be all about the numbers and "math". There is room for build diversity.
Edited by ZOS_JesC on December 30, 2018 6:29PM1
This discussion has been closed.