Tryxus wrote: »

The Bear nerf def hurt: even with the Advanced Species increase the Bear is doing a lot less damage than before, whereas in PvP it is noticably harder to execute someone with it. 30% was too severe a nerf

Perhaps ZOS could increase the damage of the Magicka morph seperately, or increase the HP % threshold for execute damage instead. A small damage boost to Winter's Revenge (10% ?) wouldn't hurt either. And ofc the Fetcherflies rework...

Speaking of Fetcherflies: a not-so-serious idea that I had regarding the Growing Swarm morph was to change the damage type to Ice Damage and have the DoT spread upon a Chilled proc.

Healer-wise, the Warden is doing excellent. The changes to Maturation and War Horn definitely helped in giving the class a place in PvE groups.

Arctic Blast... I kinda like this skill on an Ice Staff or a S&B setup where I don't have access to a Clench that stuns (also not a vampire so yeah: low on options). However, the change was incredibly lazy, like they just copy/pasted a stun on this skill. If ZOS is keen on keeping this skill as a stun, then they're def gonna have to work on improving Blast

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

The Bear nerf def hurt: even with the Advanced Species increase the Bear is doing a lot less damage than before, whereas in PvP it is noticably harder to execute someone with it. 30% was too severe a nerf

Perhaps ZOS could increase the damage of the Magicka morph seperately, or increase the HP % threshold for execute damage instead. A small damage boost to Winter's Revenge (10% ?) wouldn't hurt either. And ofc the Fetcherflies rework...

Speaking of Fetcherflies: a not-so-serious idea that I had regarding the Growing Swarm morph was to change the damage type to Ice Damage and have the DoT spread upon a Chilled proc.

Healer-wise, the Warden is doing excellent. The changes to Maturation and War Horn definitely helped in giving the class a place in PvE groups.

Arctic Blast... I kinda like this skill on an Ice Staff or a S&B setup where I don't have access to a Clench that stuns (also not a vampire so yeah: low on options). However, the change was incredibly lazy, like they just copy/pasted a stun on this skill. If ZOS is keen on keeping this skill as a stun, then they're def gonna have to work on improving Blast

Bear nerf was plain stupid. just remember the Arctic Wind Master Plan. it's the best thing to do to blast. yeah, we don't have many options and it is your only one as a non vampire ice mage although accel drain worked like a charm, @Dottzgaming did a livestream 2 days ago where he used accelerating drain. and it was amazing for him(src: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/342031589).

But if you're still insisting, then frost reach is a still a better skill. it might not be a hard counter but its still decent with a frost DoT proccing winterborn and its initial damage with vDSA staff is nothing to laugh at. hell, it even costs 1 point less of magicka. blast in its current state is just useless *** unless you're a pvp tank. heal is poxy unless your health is like 40k.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

The Bear nerf def hurt: even with the Advanced Species increase the Bear is doing a lot less damage than before, whereas in PvP it is noticably harder to execute someone with it. 30% was too severe a nerf

Perhaps ZOS could increase the damage of the Magicka morph seperately, or increase the HP % threshold for execute damage instead. A small damage boost to Winter's Revenge (10% ?) wouldn't hurt either. And ofc the Fetcherflies rework...

Speaking of Fetcherflies: a not-so-serious idea that I had regarding the Growing Swarm morph was to change the damage type to Ice Damage and have the DoT spread upon a Chilled proc.

Healer-wise, the Warden is doing excellent. The changes to Maturation and War Horn definitely helped in giving the class a place in PvE groups.

Arctic Blast... I kinda like this skill on an Ice Staff or a S&B setup where I don't have access to a Clench that stuns (also not a vampire so yeah: low on options). However, the change was incredibly lazy, like they just copy/pasted a stun on this skill. If ZOS is keen on keeping this skill as a stun, then they're def gonna have to work on improving Blast

Magden parses the lowest of any magicka DPS class. Even without the bear nerf, they still wouldn't be the top DPS class, but they'd certainly be more competitive.

Magden needs to be near the top of magicka DPS because they rely on a single target ultimate and its unreliable AI pathing. This automatically puts them at a disadvantage in most content. Having the lowest DPS + no AOE ult/reliance on pet AI, makes them a truly awful DPS class. Magdens make magsorcs seem like the best class in the game.

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

The Bear nerf def hurt: even with the Advanced Species increase the Bear is doing a lot less damage than before, whereas in PvP it is noticably harder to execute someone with it. 30% was too severe a nerf

Perhaps ZOS could increase the damage of the Magicka morph seperately, or increase the HP % threshold for execute damage instead. A small damage boost to Winter's Revenge (10% ?) wouldn't hurt either. And ofc the Fetcherflies rework...

Speaking of Fetcherflies: a not-so-serious idea that I had regarding the Growing Swarm morph was to change the damage type to Ice Damage and have the DoT spread upon a Chilled proc.

Healer-wise, the Warden is doing excellent. The changes to Maturation and War Horn definitely helped in giving the class a place in PvE groups.

Arctic Blast... I kinda like this skill on an Ice Staff or a S&B setup where I don't have access to a Clench that stuns (also not a vampire so yeah: low on options). However, the change was incredibly lazy, like they just copy/pasted a stun on this skill. If ZOS is keen on keeping this skill as a stun, then they're def gonna have to work on improving Blast

Bear nerf was plain stupid. just remember the Arctic Wind Master Plan. it's the best thing to do to blast. yeah, we don't have many options and it is your only one as a non vampire ice mage although accel drain worked like a charm, @Dottzgaming did a livestream 2 days ago where he used accelerating drain. and it was amazing for him(src: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/342031589).

But if you're still insisting, then frost reach is a still a better skill. it might not be a hard counter but its still decent with a frost DoT proccing winterborn and its initial damage with vDSA staff is nothing to laugh at. hell, it even costs 1 point less of magicka. blast in its current state is just useless *** unless you're a pvp tank. heal is poxy unless your health is like 40k.

I actually "regressed" back to vampirism for a week or 2 last update, mostly for Mist Form and the passives but I've done a few duels using Accelarating Drain. It's pretty good and the extra Ulti gain is really strong on a Warden, especially with the Balorgh set. It makes Permafrost even more lethal and with the Bear being a situational Ultimate, allowing me to accumulate a lot of ulti before using it, it enables some good burst

But yeah, I removed vampirism about a week before Murkmire went live because of the fire weakness. MagDens are countered somewhat by Mag DKs with Talons and Wings, so I didn't want to make myself even weaker against them.

I don't consider Arctic Blast a trash skill, but it's not the best thing since sliced bread either and the change was really lazy. The self heal does help a bit, it goes through Wings (it's saving grace imo) and it does work well alongside Frost Clench so yeah... But it is in dire need of an update, and that Arctic Blast master plan of yours does sound good. Maybe they should do smth like that for every Winter's Embrace skill: one defensive morph and one offensive?

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

The Bear nerf def hurt: even with the Advanced Species increase the Bear is doing a lot less damage than before, whereas in PvP it is noticably harder to execute someone with it. 30% was too severe a nerf

Perhaps ZOS could increase the damage of the Magicka morph seperately, or increase the HP % threshold for execute damage instead. A small damage boost to Winter's Revenge (10% ?) wouldn't hurt either. And ofc the Fetcherflies rework...

Speaking of Fetcherflies: a not-so-serious idea that I had regarding the Growing Swarm morph was to change the damage type to Ice Damage and have the DoT spread upon a Chilled proc.

Healer-wise, the Warden is doing excellent. The changes to Maturation and War Horn definitely helped in giving the class a place in PvE groups.

Arctic Blast... I kinda like this skill on an Ice Staff or a S&B setup where I don't have access to a Clench that stuns (also not a vampire so yeah: low on options). However, the change was incredibly lazy, like they just copy/pasted a stun on this skill. If ZOS is keen on keeping this skill as a stun, then they're def gonna have to work on improving Blast

Magden parses the lowest of any magicka DPS class. Even without the bear nerf, they still wouldn't be the top DPS class, but they'd certainly be more competitive.

Magden needs to be near the top of magicka DPS because they rely on a single target ultimate and its unreliable AI pathing. This automatically puts them at a disadvantage in most content. Having the lowest DPS + no AOE ult/reliance on pet AI, makes them a truly awful DPS class. Magdens make magsorcs seem like the best class in the game.

You don't have to repeat the "lowest Magicka DPS" all the time, you know? Pretty sure all of Tamriel is aware of that by now...

I do agree on 2 things though:

- They need an increase in DPS, at least enough to close the gap somewhat. Like buffing Winter's Revenge and Fetcher Infection like I mentioned
- A "preferential" treatment, but not making them the best Magicka DPS cause they're relying on a double barred ultimate. But rather making Wardens the exception to double barring combat pets: make the Bear a permanent pet on 1 bar only (would also be nice for PvP as well)

Right now, I think ZOS needs to work on making the MagDen's rotation easier (durations and skill mechanics like Fetcher Infection) and making the class more user-friendly (single bar Bear) while removing the DPS gap with the other classes.

Thanks! the Warden Discord helped hone it! it seems like you're using the Invigorating Drain morph which is something you have to hold down for ulti. that isnt bad, but the other morph still gives you minor expedition when you block cancel it! but i still stand by my feelings on arctic. its just too expensive when accel costs less, is harder to see coming, gives minor expedition and can heal you/ damage enemies. they also have the same effective range for a stun too as blast travels as fast as a snail.

Tryxus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

The Bear nerf def hurt: even with the Advanced Species increase the Bear is doing a lot less damage than before, whereas in PvP it is noticably harder to execute someone with it. 30% was too severe a nerf

Perhaps ZOS could increase the damage of the Magicka morph seperately, or increase the HP % threshold for execute damage instead. A small damage boost to Winter's Revenge (10% ?) wouldn't hurt either. And ofc the Fetcherflies rework...

Speaking of Fetcherflies: a not-so-serious idea that I had regarding the Growing Swarm morph was to change the damage type to Ice Damage and have the DoT spread upon a Chilled proc.

Healer-wise, the Warden is doing excellent. The changes to Maturation and War Horn definitely helped in giving the class a place in PvE groups.

Arctic Blast... I kinda like this skill on an Ice Staff or a S&B setup where I don't have access to a Clench that stuns (also not a vampire so yeah: low on options). However, the change was incredibly lazy, like they just copy/pasted a stun on this skill. If ZOS is keen on keeping this skill as a stun, then they're def gonna have to work on improving Blast

Bear nerf was plain stupid. just remember the Arctic Wind Master Plan. it's the best thing to do to blast. yeah, we don't have many options and it is your only one as a non vampire ice mage although accel drain worked like a charm, @Dottzgaming did a livestream 2 days ago where he used accelerating drain. and it was amazing for him(src: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/342031589).

But if you're still insisting, then frost reach is a still a better skill. it might not be a hard counter but its still decent with a frost DoT proccing winterborn and its initial damage with vDSA staff is nothing to laugh at. hell, it even costs 1 point less of magicka. blast in its current state is just useless *** unless you're a pvp tank. heal is poxy unless your health is like 40k.

I actually "regressed" back to vampirism for a week or 2 last update, mostly for Mist Form and the passives but I've done a few duels using Accelarating Drain. It's pretty good and the extra Ulti gain is really strong on a Warden, especially with the Balorgh set. It makes Permafrost even more lethal and with the Bear being a situational Ultimate, allowing me to accumulate a lot of ulti before using it, it enables some good burst

But yeah, I removed vampirism about a week before Murkmire went live because of the fire weakness. MagDens are countered somewhat by Mag DKs with Talons and Wings, so I didn't want to make myself even weaker against them.

I don't consider Arctic Blast a trash skill, but it's not the best thing since sliced bread either and the change was really lazy. The self heal does help a bit, it goes through Wings (it's saving grace imo) and it does work well alongside Frost Clench so yeah... But it is in dire need of an update, and that Arctic Blast master plan of yours does sound good. Maybe they should do smth like that for every Winter's Embrace skill: one defensive morph and one offensive?

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

The Bear nerf def hurt: even with the Advanced Species increase the Bear is doing a lot less damage than before, whereas in PvP it is noticably harder to execute someone with it. 30% was too severe a nerf

Perhaps ZOS could increase the damage of the Magicka morph seperately, or increase the HP % threshold for execute damage instead. A small damage boost to Winter's Revenge (10% ?) wouldn't hurt either. And ofc the Fetcherflies rework...

Speaking of Fetcherflies: a not-so-serious idea that I had regarding the Growing Swarm morph was to change the damage type to Ice Damage and have the DoT spread upon a Chilled proc.

Healer-wise, the Warden is doing excellent. The changes to Maturation and War Horn definitely helped in giving the class a place in PvE groups.

Arctic Blast... I kinda like this skill on an Ice Staff or a S&B setup where I don't have access to a Clench that stuns (also not a vampire so yeah: low on options). However, the change was incredibly lazy, like they just copy/pasted a stun on this skill. If ZOS is keen on keeping this skill as a stun, then they're def gonna have to work on improving Blast

Magden parses the lowest of any magicka DPS class. Even without the bear nerf, they still wouldn't be the top DPS class, but they'd certainly be more competitive.

Magden needs to be near the top of magicka DPS because they rely on a single target ultimate and its unreliable AI pathing. This automatically puts them at a disadvantage in most content. Having the lowest DPS + no AOE ult/reliance on pet AI, makes them a truly awful DPS class. Magdens make magsorcs seem like the best class in the game.

You don't have to repeat the "lowest Magicka DPS" all the time, you know? Pretty sure all of Tamriel is aware of that by now...

I do agree on 2 things though:

- They need an increase in DPS, at least enough to close the gap somewhat. Like buffing Winter's Revenge and Fetcher Infection like I mentioned
- A "preferential" treatment, but not making them the best Magicka DPS cause they're relying on a double barred ultimate. But rather making Wardens the exception to double barring combat pets: make the Bear a permanent pet on 1 bar only (would also be nice for PvP as well)

Right now, I think ZOS needs to work on making the MagDen's rotation easier (durations and skill mechanics like Fetcher Infection) and making the class more user-friendly (single bar Bear) while removing the DPS gap with the other classes.

Thanks! the Warden Discord helped hone it! it seems like you're using the Invigorating Drain morph which is something you have to hold down for ulti. that isnt bad, but the other morph still gives you minor expedition when you block cancel it! but i still stand by my feelings on arctic. its just too expensive when accel costs less, is harder to see coming, gives minor expedition and can heal you/ damage enemies. they also have the same effective range for a stun too as blast travels as fast as a snail.

Whoops. Yeah, I meant Invigorating I prefer that morph because even if I hold it for 1 sec, that's still 5 Ulti which is a large gain (or 10 when I get greedy/Deep Fissure is ready to pop ). It helped me discover the wonders of Balorgh which has become my fav monster set to use on my MagDen.

I may try Vampirism out again soon

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Blast Master Plan:https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/449432/the-arctic-wind-master-plan/p1?new=1

I hope you enjoy that because I don't hate ice tanks like you might think.

There are actually quite a lot of people who would prefer to use ice dps skills but there are also people who like ice tanking. that's fine but you have to fully understand what we are doing. I severely doubt that they will ever make a new class with ice. There are a lot of unused morphs that you forget about. People rarely use Expansive Frost Cloak, Crystallised Slab, Arctic Blast and Frozen Retreat. mostly because the other morph is just better in more situations or in general. We are still keeping with frost tanking. But we want to rework underused/bad morphs in this skill line so that Magdps have more than 4 DPS skills. this means that we dont want to touch Ice Fortress, Gripping Shards, Shimmering Shield or Frozen Device, (and if we do at all, we seek to improve how they already perform. you will see this with Polar Wind in The Arctic Wind Master Plan) I hope you understand now? Why did we create a warden? you can't ask that as a whole. but individually. I personally play Magden because it's the closest thing to an ice mage and it also has nature magic too. and don't worry we ARE leaving your tank alone, or seeking to improve it minimally. we don't want to take any effects away from the good tanking morphs. we seek to change the ones that perform worse.

We got a half-assed tanking line with only around half of the skills being useful and boring passives. The current DPS, Healing and Tanking lines being organised like that, is stupid and it doesn't work. Because 2 buffs are in the dps line and it means there are less options to play with. They even broke this rule by making Winter's Revenge in the tanking line. Ice is also DPS no-one needs an entire line+ morphs dedicated to tanking. even the DK's Draconic Power has DPS skills and morphs. They mostly aren't great mind you, but they still exist. Coagulating Blood is supposed to be the magdps's main heal but it has problems, Burning Talons is seemingly for dps but can work for tanks if it was improved. same with Inhale.
Volatile Armor works pretty well for DPS and tanks and the ultimates are pretty much solely for both DPS.

sorry for the rushed post, I may have repeated a thing or two. But it should tell you that we aren't here to delete ice tanking. We are here to make room in that line for DPS skills to improve the Magden AND Ice DPS experience.

If you want to talk more, join the discord discussion below in my signature and we will talk more.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

I mean is it really so bad a class cant be top PVE DPS? If we are top in PVP and good tanks, good healers.. is that not good enough without breaking the other aspects of the class thats good for a single role.

If you want to be top DPS than dont play the class for DPS trials.

Who is asking to be top DPS?

We just don't want to be this bad. That's all. The class is currently 5-6k DPS behind the top DPS and has zero utility. There is no reason for any class to be that bad.

Either give us 2-3k more DPS or give us some utility. But right now, we are bottom in DPS and utility. That's inexcusable.

IronWooshu wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

I mean is it really so bad a class cant be top PVE DPS? If we are top in PVP and good tanks, good healers.. is that not good enough without breaking the other aspects of the class thats good for a single role.

If you want to be top DPS than dont play the class for DPS trials.

Who is asking to be top DPS?

We just don't want to be this bad. That's all. The class is currently 5-6k DPS behind the top DPS and has zero utility. There is no reason for any class to be that bad.

Either give us 2-3k more DPS or give us some utility. But right now, we are bottom in DPS and utility. That's inexcusable.

I don't think we are that bad, Magden is fine for 99% of content other than leaderboards.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

However I am not arguing against buffing Warden some more, by all means make us more powerful but when they add that extra power, we better not be losing power in other places because that's what ZoS does, they give and little but also take away more.

Why would buffing warden damage take away from warden tanks (which I know is all you care about)? They don't even share any abilities due to how warden skills are broken down.

I get you're defensive because some people keep asking for ice skills to be turned into DPS skills (because they want to play an "ice mage"), but these discussions are not productive and hurt the class. We shouldn't be having these kinds of divisions within.

No, magden DPS is not fine and absolutely needs a buff. You're being purposely disingenuous when you argue otherwise.

And no, ice skills should not be changed to DPS skills. Ice mage warden will never be a thing and doesn't need to be a thing. It's just an archetype.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

However I am not arguing against buffing Warden some more, by all means make us more powerful but when they add that extra power, we better not be losing power in other places because that's what ZoS does, they give and little but also take away more.

Why would buffing warden damage take away from warden tanks (which I know is all you care about)? They don't even share any abilities due to how warden skills are broken down.

I get you're defensive because some people keep asking for ice skills to be turned into DPS skills (because they want to play an "ice mage"), but these discussions are not productive and hurt the class. We shouldn't be having these kinds of divisions within.

No, magden DPS is not fine and absolutely needs a buff. You're being purposely disingenuous when you argue otherwise.

And no, ice skills should not be changed to DPS skills. Ice mage warden will never be a thing and doesn't need to be a thing. It's just an archetype.

Ice skills should be changed. There are several unused/underperforming morphs. Not enough dps skills and a lot of people wanting to play an ice dps mage since its been in every other game. It DOES need to be a thing to increase our dps. Why give us increased ice damage passives at all if it wasn't supposed to be a thing?

This sentiment is ridiculous. You may argue that its just an archetype. But i see it as warden gets more dps options and increased dps. While ice mages have more skills to play around with and ysgrammors will finally become useful.

As long as there are skills that are completely useless for tanking, then sure. I don't play warden tank to know what those skills are, but I do see tank players getting defensive at every suggestion so it's obviously a sensitive topic.

But right now, every warden thread devolves into the following:

Group 1: Let's change some ice skills to DPS skills.

Group 2: No, magicka DPS is fine. Leave ice skills for tanking.

And 20 months later, nothing has changed because the player base can't even form a unified front around the issues plaguing the class. You get warden tanks furthering the agenda that "magden DPS is fine" every chance they get as a way of "protecting" their ice skills. While on the DPS side, we are constantly recommending changes that the tanks are opposed to and that ZOS doesn't seem receptive to since to them, ice is a tanking element.