Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

It is something of a scam, but you don't have to take part. And the game is an 18, so there should be no children in the game, unless parents are being ineffective.

I've got about 40k crowns, accrued from various subs over the years, but I have never spent a single crown in the store, except for DLC when on offer. The game has the hallmarks of being prepped for F2P, so don't be a part of that process is my view.

I no longer sub at all in fact, because I think the sub is pretty worthless all said and done, but that's another matter.

Parents are being ineffective or just don't care, no one reads the terms of service except the extremely dedicated, you're not an adult at age 18 but at 25-28 due to the brain not stopping its development yet and being easily influenced. These games use addictive mechanics, consult psychologists to intentionally addict others, use reward-systems that interact directly with chemical processes of the brain, etc etc.

I abhor the cash shop/gambling box mentality of developers and I never buy into it. But businesses can only get away with what customers let them get away with.

People need to take responsibility and simply not get sucked into this stuff. It's not hard, all the stuff in the Crown Store is utter tripe, a spangly fake cat that your fake character can fake ride is hardly a compelling purchase to anyone with an IQ over 65. I still ride my original 'paint horse' and I've got millions of gold and tens of thousands of crowns from various subs. They all go the same speed, it's not like I just traded my Mercedes for an AMG.

Jesus.

Agreed. I'm sitting on 26k crowns from my subs. Never bought a single crown store item apart from DLC (I was away for 2 years and was unconvinced about resubbing when I came back) and character slots. I won't spend any money on crowns, gems or whatever ludicrous currency they come up with next.

YOU HAVE spent money on crowns via the subscription.

No. The crowns are added to my account without any intervention from me. I don't agree with playing for free because I agree there needs to be continued financial support from the players because the game has ongoing costs. So I sub. I don't buy crowns.

daemonios wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

It is something of a scam, but you don't have to take part. And the game is an 18, so there should be no children in the game, unless parents are being ineffective.

I've got about 40k crowns, accrued from various subs over the years, but I have never spent a single crown in the store, except for DLC when on offer. The game has the hallmarks of being prepped for F2P, so don't be a part of that process is my view.

I no longer sub at all in fact, because I think the sub is pretty worthless all said and done, but that's another matter.

Parents are being ineffective or just don't care, no one reads the terms of service except the extremely dedicated, you're not an adult at age 18 but at 25-28 due to the brain not stopping its development yet and being easily influenced. These games use addictive mechanics, consult psychologists to intentionally addict others, use reward-systems that interact directly with chemical processes of the brain, etc etc.

I abhor the cash shop/gambling box mentality of developers and I never buy into it. But businesses can only get away with what customers let them get away with.

People need to take responsibility and simply not get sucked into this stuff. It's not hard, all the stuff in the Crown Store is utter tripe, a spangly fake cat that your fake character can fake ride is hardly a compelling purchase to anyone with an IQ over 65. I still ride my original 'paint horse' and I've got millions of gold and tens of thousands of crowns from various subs. They all go the same speed, it's not like I just traded my Mercedes for an AMG.

Jesus.

Agreed. I'm sitting on 26k crowns from my subs. Never bought a single crown store item apart from DLC (I was away for 2 years and was unconvinced about resubbing when I came back) and character slots. I won't spend any money on crowns, gems or whatever ludicrous currency they come up with next.

YOU HAVE spent money on crowns via the subscription.

No. The crowns are added to my account without any intervention from me. I don't agree with playing for free because I agree there needs to be continued financial support from the players because the game has ongoing costs. So I sub. I don't buy crowns.

You purchased the game and the expansions and sometimes the DLC, that is your continued cost, those on-going costs are factored with the original purchase price and additional content expansions. But no the intervention from you is that you subscribed and continue to give them money for the exchange of a craft bag which has its own issues, DLC which can be purchased with crowns so you may already own it all, and of course the crown allowance.

Regardless, cosmetics are a major important part of games, they are not irrelevant.

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Regardless, cosmetics are a major important part of games, they are not irrelevant.

I'll copy this from closed post:

Actually, we have a lot of FREE IN-GAME COSMETICS.

1. Almost ALL THE IN-GAME MOTIFS - and they are a lot in number - give the opportunity to create a cloth dress siutable for peaceful life of a peasant or a rich landlord, a leather outfit for a hunter or a thief, and something really tough for warriors of all kinds, be it an evil butcher or a knight of the Eight. If that is not enough, we have cloth items to steal and wear. Also, we have FREE COSTUMES from daily rewards and in-game activities. And also, FREE SKINS.

2. We have FREE MOUNTS AND PETS from in-game activities and daily rewards. Also, somitemes we have mounts and pets when a new chapter comes out.

3. We have FREE CROWN CRATES that provide additional costumes, mounts, pets and other cosmetics.

4. We have a DIRECT SALES STORE: buy crowns with your real money - buy items you need with crowns.

5. We have ESO+ free items - costumes, maybe pets and mounts later.

TL DR: if you don't like crown crates system, just look through the list above.

myskyrim26 wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Regardless, cosmetics are a major important part of games, they are not irrelevant.

I'll copy this from closed post:

Actually, we have a lot of FREE IN-GAME COSMETICS.

1. Almost ALL THE IN-GAME MOTIFS - and they are a lot in number - give the opportunity to create a cloth dress siutable for peaceful life of a peasant or a rich landlord, a leather outfit for a hunter or a thief, and something really tough for warriors of all kinds, be it an evil butcher or a knight of the Eight. If that is not enough, we have cloth items to steal and wear. Also, we have FREE COSTUMES from daily rewards and in-game activities. And also, FREE SKINS.

2. We have FREE MOUNTS AND PETS from in-game activities and daily rewards. Also, somitemes we have mounts and pets when a new chapter comes out.

3. We have FREE CROWN CRATES that provide additional costumes, mounts, pets and other cosmetics.

4. We have a DIRECT SALES STORE: buy crowns with your real money - buy items you need with crowns.

5. We have ESO+ free items - costumes, maybe pets and mounts later.

TL DR: if you don't like crown crates system, just look through the list above.

Yeah we need to stop using the word free incorrectly.

1. The skins aren't "free" they require doing challenging sometimes highly imbalanced content but whatever we'll accept this one line, all the others though... they aren't free and there aren't many of them.

2. This game is 4+ years old the only in-game activities that give mounts are none and the only in-game activity that gives a pet is usually an expansion which you paid for and which you already paid for that pet and it's usually one and a memento or horrible costume (looking at you sixth robe). The last in-game activity to give a pet was Murkmire a dlc, which of course you paid for to have or you did the daily login for 16 days and expended your time on this game rather than whatever else you could do and you got the murkmire dlc as a result and thus got that turtle. There was a highly repetitive activity that could give that squid that almost no one actually uses. Or jelly fish or whatever. The options for in-game activity based mounts and pets are MINIMAL. And when a chapter comes out and you early pre-order for a mount that's a pre-order bonus or often just a collectors edition bonus.

3. The free-crown crates was typically only there for people who were ESO Plus or ESO Subscribers during a particular event like E3 or whatever and that also tuned in on twitch or youtube or whatever. There's also the watch Twitch and maybe you'll get a Ouruboros crown crate with a ridiculously low drop rate and you probably won't even actually get any twitch crates and you'll get very minimal crown gems. Needing ESO Plus or to be a subscriber does not qualify "as free" it qualifies as a subscriber benefit included in your payment for "event access". And the free crates with daily rewards which didn't happen this month are primarily there to get people a taste of crown crates like a free taste of a drug. Not something to really defend though obviously anything given that requires minimal effort by yourself is appreciated, there are actual background reasons to it and negatives too. Further they also still have despite being "free" the ridiculously diminished returns and drop rates and tons of junk in them which pushes to spend more if you don't get anything good, so that's a problem in itself. All things in crown crates are not in-game until purchased and unlocked.

4. This is a particular problem, I'm not sure why at all you would point this as "already being in the game" things in the crown-store aren't in the game until purchased separately.

5. You pay for ESO+ it's not free. Things included with it are part of the purchase price, and often are just a discount on the purchase price (sometimes a discount that reads more like a discount on a price that was increased to bring it to what the normal would be)

daemonios wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

It is something of a scam, but you don't have to take part. And the game is an 18, so there should be no children in the game, unless parents are being ineffective.

I've got about 40k crowns, accrued from various subs over the years, but I have never spent a single crown in the store, except for DLC when on offer. The game has the hallmarks of being prepped for F2P, so don't be a part of that process is my view.

I no longer sub at all in fact, because I think the sub is pretty worthless all said and done, but that's another matter.

Parents are being ineffective or just don't care, no one reads the terms of service except the extremely dedicated, you're not an adult at age 18 but at 25-28 due to the brain not stopping its development yet and being easily influenced. These games use addictive mechanics, consult psychologists to intentionally addict others, use reward-systems that interact directly with chemical processes of the brain, etc etc.

I abhor the cash shop/gambling box mentality of developers and I never buy into it. But businesses can only get away with what customers let them get away with.

People need to take responsibility and simply not get sucked into this stuff. It's not hard, all the stuff in the Crown Store is utter tripe, a spangly fake cat that your fake character can fake ride is hardly a compelling purchase to anyone with an IQ over 65. I still ride my original 'paint horse' and I've got millions of gold and tens of thousands of crowns from various subs. They all go the same speed, it's not like I just traded my Mercedes for an AMG.

Jesus.

Agreed. I'm sitting on 26k crowns from my subs. Never bought a single crown store item apart from DLC (I was away for 2 years and was unconvinced about resubbing when I came back) and character slots. I won't spend any money on crowns, gems or whatever ludicrous currency they come up with next.

YOU HAVE spent money on crowns via the subscription.

No. The crowns are added to my account without any intervention from me. I don't agree with playing for free because I agree there needs to be continued financial support from the players because the game has ongoing costs. So I sub. I don't buy crowns.

You purchased the game and the expansions and sometimes the DLC, that is your continued cost, those on-going costs are factored with the original purchase price and additional content expansions. But no the intervention from you is that you subscribed and continue to give them money for the exchange of a craft bag which has its own issues, DLC which can be purchased with crowns so you may already own it all, and of course the crown allowance.

Regardless, cosmetics are a major important part of games, they are not irrelevant.

Either I'm not being clear or you don't want to understand. I subscribe because I feel the upfront cost is not sufficient to support a game with ongoing costs. I subscribe because I feel it's an honest way of paying for said costs. I subscribe because I don't agree with playing for free while others subsidise my gaming. I would love it if the crown store simply disappeared tomorrow. As it is I don't know how long I'll play (and subscribe) because the crown store - among other issues - is ruining the game. I've already taken a 2-year break in a 4-year-old game, so I'm not exactly ESO's biggest fan.

I understand where you're coming from in your last point, but you're not playing for free. You bought the game. I don't see how it can be more simple than that. Playing the game without subscribing after buying the game is not playing for free, it's playing the game you purchased. The subscription is an entirely alternative thing for some benefit that comes with it. And given how they've acted, it doesn't really feel like much of the revenue is going to improving the game with new content or such so much as more crown crate stuff. Wherein each further expansion is more an attempt to keep or increase (or sometimes just reduce the decrease) of the userbase.

I really hope you don't actually believe that buying a game but not subscribing is somehow "free". I've played games for 20+ years and after buying the game I was never expected to do anything else nor told I was playing it for free.

You don't feel the upfront cost was enough, okay, but what goes into that justification? This is after all, a game with a very small amount of content given how long it's been around. Even if you just want to give them money because you feel that's the best way to hopefully improve the game over time, so you saw the easiest way to do that and what not, that doesn't mean those that don't are playing for free.

Keep presenting you opinion as fact, and referencing games that consult shrinks to prey on our weak little minds.

Why can no one just be honest and admit that you want whats in the box and either cant or wont pay for the chance?

Trying to compare loot boxes to actual atrosities is really sad. Not being able to play barbie dream house or dressup is not trauma.

The only thing you can not get right now is houses for gold. Thats it.


Spouting off that devs dont put effort into game or saying as fact they would make more money from non chance one off sales is a strech armstronh level reach.

No one can predict the future, blanker statements of opinion presented as fact is absurd.

If you work for this company and have access to real data, I will listen to you
If you are just a pissed off gamer who wants the new shiny and cant or wont get it, you have no facts.

Do games use psychology to entice people to spend money? Of course they do. So do movies amd television and instgram and facebook and google and apple and car manufacurers and energy drinks and real estate agents and t.v. doctors and the evening news and your congressman and senators and drug companies and literally every single other business on the planet.

Be mad at the people perpepuating the system, wheres the attack on the people spending a grip of cash so i can buy 20k crowns with gold?

The reason that its not gambling is because its not an exchange of currency. If you could revert your purchased in game currency back to the original currency you would have gambling, because you would be dealing with legit exchange.

Bitcoin is gambling, loot boxes are games of chance. You buy tokens you dont exchange them simply because there is no reversal or probability that you could financially benefit from the system.

Ertosi wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

Regardless, cosmetics are a major important part of games, they are not irrelevant.

Cosmetics are by definition irrelevant. That's why they're called cosmetics.


But hey, I do my cosmetics; lets just not overinflate their importance.

They're not conflated. They're so important to these games that they are being sold and people buy them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLlRceUcRZcK0E1Id3NHchFaxikvCvAVQe&v=baMwNSX-Y1c

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

Delsanab14_ESO wrote: »

FlyingSwan wrote: »

It is something of a scam, but you don't have to take part. And the game is an 18, so there should be no children in the game, unless parents are being ineffective.

I've got about 40k crowns, accrued from various subs over the years, but I have never spent a single crown in the store, except for DLC when on offer. The game has the hallmarks of being prepped for F2P, so don't be a part of that process is my view.

I no longer sub at all in fact, because I think the sub is pretty worthless all said and done, but that's another matter.

Parents are being ineffective or just don't care, no one reads the terms of service except the extremely dedicated, you're not an adult at age 18 but at 25-28 due to the brain not stopping its development yet and being easily influenced. These games use addictive mechanics, consult psychologists to intentionally addict others, use reward-systems that interact directly with chemical processes of the brain, etc etc.

I abhor the cash shop/gambling box mentality of developers and I never buy into it. But businesses can only get away with what customers let them get away with.

People need to take responsibility and simply not get sucked into this stuff. It's not hard, all the stuff in the Crown Store is utter tripe, a spangly fake cat that your fake character can fake ride is hardly a compelling purchase to anyone with an IQ over 65. I still ride my original 'paint horse' and I've got millions of gold and tens of thousands of crowns from various subs. They all go the same speed, it's not like I just traded my Mercedes for an AMG.

Jesus.

Agreed. I'm sitting on 26k crowns from my subs. Never bought a single crown store item apart from DLC (I was away for 2 years and was unconvinced about resubbing when I came back) and character slots. I won't spend any money on crowns, gems or whatever ludicrous currency they come up with next.

YOU HAVE spent money on crowns via the subscription.

No. The crowns are added to my account without any intervention from me. I don't agree with playing for free because I agree there needs to be continued financial support from the players because the game has ongoing costs. So I sub. I don't buy crowns.

You purchased the game and the expansions and sometimes the DLC, that is your continued cost, those on-going costs are factored with the original purchase price and additional content expansions. But no the intervention from you is that you subscribed and continue to give them money for the exchange of a craft bag which has its own issues, DLC which can be purchased with crowns so you may already own it all, and of course the crown allowance.

Regardless, cosmetics are a major important part of games, they are not irrelevant.

Either I'm not being clear or you don't want to understand. I subscribe because I feel the upfront cost is not sufficient to support a game with ongoing costs. I subscribe because I feel it's an honest way of paying for said costs. I subscribe because I don't agree with playing for free while others subsidise my gaming. I would love it if the crown store simply disappeared tomorrow. As it is I don't know how long I'll play (and subscribe) because the crown store - among other issues - is ruining the game. I've already taken a 2-year break in a 4-year-old game, so I'm not exactly ESO's biggest fan.

I understand where you're coming from in your last point, but you're not playing for free. You bought the game. I don't see how it can be more simple than that. Playing the game without subscribing after buying the game is not playing for free, it's playing the game you purchased. The subscription is an entirely alternative thing for some benefit that comes with it. And given how they've acted, it doesn't really feel like much of the revenue is going to improving the game with new content or such so much as more crown crate stuff. Wherein each further expansion is more an attempt to keep or increase (or sometimes just reduce the decrease) of the userbase.

I really hope you don't actually believe that buying a game but not subscribing is somehow "free". I've played games for 20+ years and after buying the game I was never expected to do anything else nor told I was playing it for free.

You don't feel the upfront cost was enough, okay, but what goes into that justification? This is after all, a game with a very small amount of content given how long it's been around. Even if you just want to give them money because you feel that's the best way to hopefully improve the game over time, so you saw the easiest way to do that and what not, that doesn't mean those that don't are playing for free.

I started playing games circa 1986 on a ZX Spectrum, so we're about equal. I don't remember at that time playing games that required server infrastructure on the publisher's end. In fact, the first online multiplayer games I played, such as Descent or Duke Nukem 3d, were fully hosted on the players' computers and used direct connections to other players. Comparing games 20 years ago with games today, especially with regard to ongoing costs, is a bit disingenuous, don't you think? So yes, I think playing a game like ESO without expecting an ongoing sub is free-riding. I don't agree with the crown store, I agree with a different form of paying for the game continually.

tactx wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

I don't agree with the crown store, I agree with a different form of paying for the game continually.

Right, except the player base will diminish if all have to pay continually, which is why they offer benefits to those who pay more so it can make up for the freeloaders to increase population.

Crates are there for "whales" (as crypto kiddies put it) to buy so people who refuse to pay for anything can still play. You're welcome.

I'd wager a good portion of the ESO playerbase has ESO+ for the benefits. Even still, the problem is the only thing our sub and all the whales money combined has given us is the servers staying up and more crown store stuff. Maybe that's enough for new players. Crown store as end game kinda blows for veteran players.

wolf486 wrote: »

If a game locks skills or progression behind crates/loot boxes, THAT is shady practices and I would never touch a game that does something as such.

But for cosmetic things such as costumes, mounts or pets? They can do whatever they want as it's only a 'want' on the players part, not a 'need'.

Agreed

tactx wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

tactx wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

I don't agree with the crown store, I agree with a different form of paying for the game continually.

Right, except the player base will diminish if all have to pay continually, which is why they offer benefits to those who pay more so it can make up for the freeloaders to increase population.

Crates are there for "whales" (as crypto kiddies put it) to buy so people who refuse to pay for anything can still play. You're welcome.

I'd wager a good portion of the ESO playerbase has ESO+ for the benefits. Even still, the problem is the only thing our sub and all the whales money combined has given us is the servers staying up and more crown store stuff. Maybe that's enough for new players. Crown store as end game kinda blows for veteran players.

Content updates are actually quite often, especially compared to other games. Murkmire, Summerset, the Wolfhunter update, Sorcerer nerfs, etc. End game always will represent a small portion of the player base and as a result it usually represents only a small portion of the updates (look at how many are awful at their class, how many haven't completed vMA, etc.) Personally I'd like to keep the servers up and running with new content coming out. It's enough for me.

And while I'm one of whales spending here, I'm the type that understands any "hobby" costs $. Going to the movies cost $. Going out to eat cost $. So I'm okay spending on something I enjoy. And this game has some of the best written content and storylines I've seen. Gems have been a result of getting items from crate seasons that have built up. People that think you have to gamble for gems simply don't get it and they feel that way because they've probably never bought a crate in their life and now they're all pissy. I'm not one who thinks this is "gambling for currency" I vehemently disagree with the OP and the entire topic of this. It's complete and total BS.

I'll take quality over quantity. Nice that the servers are still up but how bout a good update for once instead of the half assed stuff we've been getting. Haven't seen a good storyline in years. All the content releases, save for dungeons, are the same damn thing over and over again in a new location. I could care less about the crown store, bleed the idiots dry. Just put that back into the game for once.

such a scam crowngems turn out to be. Luckily they plan to ban lootboxes
When you support this,don't complain about poor quality ,buggy game releases etc;you are responsible buying lootboxes
as you support this cancer in the game industry

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

EphemeraCrawford wrote: »

myskyrim26 wrote: »

@EphemeraCrawford
When you come to a game, a forum, a shop, a hotel - whatever place selling something - you have to agree with the conditions of this place. If a new ice sabre cat is only for gems - so be it. Get gems or pass by. Who on the earth are you to impose YOUR rules to this game? To its crown store? To any seller, actually?

My rules? Au contraire mon frere. The FTC has announced they're going to be investigating loot boxes. Their rules.

You missed a piece of information. They are investigating loot boxes and how they affect children.

What is ESOs rating again? any rulings coming from that FTC investigation are likely to be based around that. Even IF lootboxes are considered gambling they are unlikely to be banned from any game with a Mature Rating. They will end up as one of the warnings such as "Scenes of Tobacco Use" "Adult themes" etc.

It all depends on the definition category they place the gambling in. In the United States, where the FTC is, Lottery legal age limit is 18+ but there must have the set odds publicized.

Other forms of gambling that include slots and electronic games can have the odds obscured by the legal age is 21+ so the argument that it is rated Mature falls apart as it is not rated Adult 21+.

Further is there is no verifiable way to enforce the rating that ensures that under age players are not getting in. So again the hiding behind a rating fails to protect them.

Industries should be worried when the FTC announces they will be investigating as that is a signal that they plan on enacting large fines and that is the warning they had best change what they are doing, historically speaking on past actions.