yodased wrote: »

While I can appreciate the sentiment of the post, you really are reaching here. Gambling addiction for sure is a real thing and loot boxes very well could be a trigger leading to irrational behavior, but I doubt this is going to be creating addicts from ZOS crates. Funny how you ask for proof yet you don't bring up any proof of this. So how can you say it can't or won't? It goes both ways.

Does your country have the lottery? Casinos? Horse/Dog Tracks? Poker Rooms? Chicken Fights? Dog Fights? Point is? If they do have them besides the chicken and dog fights at least here in Canada we have a government that runs them. So if we go by what you just said, these loot boxes wold be the chicken and dog fights that would be Illegal.

There are innumerable ways for someone with a predilection for gambling to get in trouble. For that matter, how does the game itself not trigger the same reaction in these people? Sorry I am not sure what your point is here. Of course there are innumerable ways for people to get into trouble with gambling. This is one of them. The person did say it was a small percentage just like in real life. 2-5%. Maybe the percentage is wrong but we get the idea it happens to very few, but those very few add up to millions of dollars. Preying on the weak, no matter how few is just wrong. Morally wrong

The entirety of every game like this is based on gambling. Every single item that is opened with a chance of a gold item is a slot machine. Why are these people ok with this situation and not suffering from sleep deprivation and getting fired from their job because they have to find the golden cheese? How do you they are not? Also just because one type of gambling doesn't happen to another type of gambling doesn't mean it's not a gambling problem. Not all alcoholics or drug users experience the same symptoms or effects. Same for gambling addicts. They don't experience the same symptoms or effects. Otherwise you are saying that all people addicted to slot machine gambling are sleep deprived and can't function at work.

Is your point that the loot boxes affect them differently because there is real world consequences to purchasing lotto tickets in the game? Yes, it is exactly the same thing.

How do these poor people go to the gas station without buying all the lotto tickets? People do have issues. It's just not on the news because it's not "exciting good or bad way" to show it. Just because we don't read or see about it in the news doesn't mean it's not happening. It is.

Also, if you are on welfare from gambling how do you have the necessary means to have a computer with specs to run the game, a place to play for the time needed to become addicted, internet access without restriction? Profiling much? Just because you are on welfare doesn't mean you don't have cell phones, internet, computers what ever. Even if people don't have internet, computers or what ever still have gambling problems. Are you saying if you are on welfare you don't have an addiction? People on welfare still buy lottery tickets when they "shouldn't". So that right there shows you how people do things when they know they can't or shouldn't.

Every time I see these arguments, its a false agenda, it's much more likely that you don't like the loot boxes and are looking for a reason to get rid of them vs actually thinking that they lead to bankruptcy or whatever else you want to attribute to them.
Who has the false agenda here? While you have been very respectful you haven't proven there is a false agenda here. Please explain why. Again, you haven't proven it isn't so neither you or the orignal poster is wrong.

Do I like lootboxes? Of course not, no one does. Do I realize that I have no control over the situation other than to not purchase them? Of course I do, I'm an adult who understands the consequence of spending available funds on irrelevant things. There are people who like loot boxes. So saying no one does is wrong. I don't like loot boxes either but I don't go on and say how they are wrong for liking them. Also we do have control. It's called not buying them. It must be working, since ESO is always on sale. Lots of free to play. So it COULD be a reasons why loot boxes are not working. So it's like a free "hit" to get people hooked. Of course I could be wrong, but until I am proven wrong, this is what I believe.

Have the real discussion, bring valid points why the concept is not valid, don't reach for mental health because it is an easy target is all im saying.Where are your valid points. The original poster did bring up some valid points, yet you dismiss them. Pot calling kettle? Sadly "don't reach for mental health because it is an easy target" is not all you are saying. You are trying to justify why loot boxes are ok even if you don't agree with it. If you want to say about "mental health" issues, then prove your facts as well. You have done nothing more than the Original Poster did, but yet you complain what he said is wrong, while doing the same.

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

You're not gonna shame ZOS into getting rid of Crown Crates. People who own a capacity for shame (or any amount of ethics whatsoever) would never have introduced gamble boxes in the first place. You can't guilt people with no good in their souls. All you can really do is never, ever, ever reward them for something you should be punishing them for. Purchase no crates. None. Never. Period.

Agree with this, sad but true.

HOWEVER, I would add that it IS possible to shame them into changing not so much by making them feel guilty, but by drawing unwanted public attention to their practices, so that legal and ethical regulators FINALLY catch up to this scandalous corruption and root it out of our modern digital markets like the toxic filth that it is. Props to Belgium for carrying the torch on that one.

That which grows in shadow but withers in the light does not belong on the vine.

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

The people defending gambling crates amaze me. It's almost like gamers are asking to be treated like garbage.

People who use language like "gambling crates" sound like prohibitionists. It is more like gamers are asking to be treated like the adults we are; who understand that we can make a choice on how to spend our money. You know like adults and not a bunch of whiny prohibitionists who just want anything they don't like or don't want to do banned, even if it has absolutely zero impact on their lives. Because Crown Crates have zero impact on you if you do not buy them, period.

Repeating that it doesn't affect you if you don't buy them over and over doesn't make it true. It is well established it creates an incentive to market exclusively to big spenders and de-prioritize investment in the average customer. Quality and availability both are diminished and the value of a product all are paying for becomes lower for some than for others. This does affect people whether you personally agree with it or not. Changing a product from a subscription model to a product you MAYBE get if you're lucky DOES affect people missing out for not gambling, whether you personally agree with it or not. Cosmetics IS a huge value item in the digital economy, whether you personally agree with it or nor. Try to argue with facts not opinions.

Also, calling people "whiny prohibitionists" just makes your argument look petty and immature. Any time you feel the need to resort to insults to make a point, you probably don't have a point worth making, or taking very seriously. It is in your own self interest to develop a better communication strategy.

Lastly, implying "we are all adults so this is fine" completely ignores the fact that gambling regulations exist for a reason. You may not agree with the laws society has written, but unless they are changed by official process they are laws nonetheless. Your personal opinion about the law is irrelevant. I wonder how many people in prison are of the opinion the law they were convicted under was designed by a bunch of whiny pacifists?

The loot box micro transaction money grab IS unethical and SHOULD be regulated, for the specific reason that it is gambling with real money. Real. Money. Gambling. Period.

The fact you make people buy poker chips before they real-money gamble is irrelevant. You are a poker casino. You can't hand-wave abstract your way around the simple facts.

Davor wrote: »

You just made me think of something. How come Pokémon cards is not gambling, or Magic the Gathering is not gambling, hockey, baseball cards? Is it gambling?

Back then in my child hood in the 1970s and 80s, we had baseball, hockey cards. Thing is, there was no "exclusives" that we must have. So we didn't buy more to get "what we want" than "what we didn't want".

FakeFox wrote: »

I have gone over to spending no money on the game apart from my subscription, because spending any additional money just gets you stuck in that circle of frustration and temptation to spend more money. But us having to regulate our selfs in that should not be the solution. At the point where I spend real money their should be no randomization involved. You also wouldn't buy a car for the company to roll a dice on the color you receive.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

I have gone over to spending no money on the game apart from my subscription, because spending any additional money just gets you stuck in that circle of frustration and temptation to spend more money. But us having to regulate our selfs in that should not be the solution. At the point where I spend real money their should be no randomization involved. You also wouldn't buy a car for the company to roll a dice on the color you receive.

Actually I rather think we need more self control as a society. Blaming companies for tempting you to buy things is diverting the blame from yourself. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

As the title says, its getting more and more clear, that zenimax wanna hop on the "abusing people with gambling issue" train. Like many other games on the market, whos names shall not be said here, they are abusing those 2-5% player base who actually buy the hard to get, expensive to get store items. And im not talking about those people who get 15 crates every season and see if they are lucky. No there are people that spend hundrets and hundrets of dollar/euro/dogecoin to get all the mounts outfits houses etc. Those people can`t stop that behaviour even when they are deeply in debt and living on welfare.

I came to this game, because it did not have those exploiting mechanics. And now its showing its ugly face. The only thing we can do is wait for other countrys to join belgium in declaring loot boxes illegal ( https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 ) or leave this game which will result in Zenimax trying to milk the rest of the player base even more.

This fool one day in discord said he’d sold 7k United States DOLLARS worth of crowns with the goal of becoming a BILLIONAIRE (in gold) in the game. For WHAT?

The moron didn’t say. He did go on and on about flipping high gold items in traders. I sort of tuned the dummy out after that lol.

karekiz wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

Microtransactions began when people started buying things for real money illicitly off third parties, and then accelerated substantially when players started demanding F2P and B2P business models instead of the traditional subscription model. All of that started with cash shops and then the concept of loot boxes was added with developers trying them out and finding that enough players liked them to make them commercially attractive.

Which also became a thing when people realized that you paying 15.00 USD a month for every single mmo out there actually rarely meant anything. You weren't backed with CS and could literally be scummed out of monthly payments even after you quit <Many MMO's did this and still do>. Paying 15.00 NEVER meant "more content". Ever. 15.00 USD is just a convient payment since every other MMO uses it, and why exactly does a game with a playerbase of say 200K need the *same* money as one with upwards to 10 million players. Shouldn't the cost go up/down with more employment cost/server cost? Nope. Sadly nobody really thinks about that.

For example:

The secret world - Funcom

I had paid for a sub for the FIRST time since WOTLK wow. Boom one week in and they announce they are not supporting TSW officially and no futher content will be made. They would relaunch the game into something new.

Contact CS immediantly for a refund. Cause you know they took 90.00 USD out for "supporting" the product they don't even support. What did CS tell me?

"We can refund you 5 months worth, but cant fully refund you because you used *ONE* week of that month and that meant I couldn't be refunded the sub since I - and I quote here - Used it."

Never subbing ever again unless i'm DAMN sure the game is #1 and support won't be dropped randomly - WoW or nothing essentially.


So yeah if loot boxes keep games from being sub only, I am quite happy with them.

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

As the title says, its getting more and more clear, that zenimax wanna hop on the "abusing people with gambling issue" train. Like many other games on the market, whos names shall not be said here, they are abusing those 2-5% player base who actually buy the hard to get, expensive to get store items. And im not talking about those people who get 15 crates every season and see if they are lucky. No there are people that spend hundrets and hundrets of dollar/euro/dogecoin to get all the mounts outfits houses etc. Those people can`t stop that behaviour even when they are deeply in debt and living on welfare.

I came to this game, because it did not have those exploiting mechanics. And now its showing its ugly face. The only thing we can do is wait for other countrys to join belgium in declaring loot boxes illegal ( https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 ) or leave this game which will result in Zenimax trying to milk the rest of the player base even more.

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

As the title says, its getting more and more clear, that zenimax wanna hop on the "abusing people with gambling issue" train. Like many other games on the market, whos names shall not be said here, they are abusing those 2-5% player base who actually buy the hard to get, expensive to get store items. And im not talking about those people who get 15 crates every season and see if they are lucky. No there are people that spend hundrets and hundrets of dollar/euro/dogecoin to get all the mounts outfits houses etc. Those people can`t stop that behaviour even when they are deeply in debt and living on welfare.

I came to this game, because it did not have those exploiting mechanics. And now its showing its ugly face. The only thing we can do is wait for other countrys to join belgium in declaring loot boxes illegal ( https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 ) or leave this game which will result in Zenimax trying to milk the rest of the player base even more.