Elder Scrolls Online is slowly turning into a game that exploits gamers with a gambling addiction

Davor

My points in Bold.

yodased wrote: »

While I can appreciate the sentiment of the post, you really are reaching here. Gambling addiction for sure is a real thing and loot boxes very well could be a trigger leading to irrational behavior, but I doubt this is going to be creating addicts from ZOS crates. Funny how you ask for proof yet you don't bring up any proof of this. So how can you say it can't or won't? It goes both ways.

Does your country have the lottery? Casinos? Horse/Dog Tracks? Poker Rooms? Chicken Fights? Dog Fights? Point is? If they do have them besides the chicken and dog fights at least here in Canada we have a government that runs them. So if we go by what you just said, these loot boxes wold be the chicken and dog fights that would be Illegal.

There are innumerable ways for someone with a predilection for gambling to get in trouble. For that matter, how does the game itself not trigger the same reaction in these people? Sorry I am not sure what your point is here. Of course there are innumerable ways for people to get into trouble with gambling. This is one of them. The person did say it was a small percentage just like in real life. 2-5%. Maybe the percentage is wrong but we get the idea it happens to very few, but those very few add up to millions of dollars. Preying on the weak, no matter how few is just wrong. Morally wrong

The entirety of every game like this is based on gambling. Every single item that is opened with a chance of a gold item is a slot machine. Why are these people ok with this situation and not suffering from sleep deprivation and getting fired from their job because they have to find the golden cheese? How do you they are not? Also just because one type of gambling doesn't happen to another type of gambling doesn't mean it's not a gambling problem. Not all alcoholics or drug users experience the same symptoms or effects. Same for gambling addicts. They don't experience the same symptoms or effects. Otherwise you are saying that all people addicted to slot machine gambling are sleep deprived and can't function at work.

Is your point that the loot boxes affect them differently because there is real world consequences to purchasing lotto tickets in the game? Yes, it is exactly the same thing.

How do these poor people go to the gas station without buying all the lotto tickets? People do have issues. It's just not on the news because it's not "exciting good or bad way" to show it. Just because we don't read or see about it in the news doesn't mean it's not happening. It is.

Also, if you are on welfare from gambling how do you have the necessary means to have a computer with specs to run the game, a place to play for the time needed to become addicted, internet access without restriction? Profiling much? Just because you are on welfare doesn't mean you don't have cell phones, internet, computers what ever. Even if people don't have internet, computers or what ever still have gambling problems. Are you saying if you are on welfare you don't have an addiction? People on welfare still buy lottery tickets when they "shouldn't". So that right there shows you how people do things when they know they can't or shouldn't.

Every time I see these arguments, its a false agenda, it's much more likely that you don't like the loot boxes and are looking for a reason to get rid of them vs actually thinking that they lead to bankruptcy or whatever else you want to attribute to them.
Who has the false agenda here? While you have been very respectful you haven't proven there is a false agenda here. Please explain why. Again, you haven't proven it isn't so neither you or the orignal poster is wrong.

Do I like lootboxes? Of course not, no one does. Do I realize that I have no control over the situation other than to not purchase them? Of course I do, I'm an adult who understands the consequence of spending available funds on irrelevant things. There are people who like loot boxes. So saying no one does is wrong. I don't like loot boxes either but I don't go on and say how they are wrong for liking them. Also we do have control. It's called not buying them. It must be working, since ESO is always on sale. Lots of free to play. So it COULD be a reasons why loot boxes are not working. So it's like a free "hit" to get people hooked. Of course I could be wrong, but until I am proven wrong, this is what I believe.

Have the real discussion, bring valid points why the concept is not valid, don't reach for mental health because it is an easy target is all im saying.Where are your valid points. The original poster did bring up some valid points, yet you dismiss them. Pot calling kettle? Sadly "don't reach for mental health because it is an easy target" is not all you are saying. You are trying to justify why loot boxes are ok even if you don't agree with it. If you want to say about "mental health" issues, then prove your facts as well. You have done nothing more than the Original Poster did, but yet you complain what he said is wrong, while doing the same.

I am not saying you are wrong at all, just how I believe you made mistakes in your opinions. I respect your opinion and if I am wrong, I will admit to it. Hope to keep up the friendly debate even though it's hard to tell the "tone". There is no malice in here, just a friendly debate.

Davor

mayasunrising wrote: »

"Where were their parents?

So you telling me, that you have done everything you parents told you to do? You never "snuck" anything in or out? You never swore at school or anywhere else away from your parents? You never drunk or smoked underage? Did you wait to have sex when you were married? So now we are blaming the parents that kids can do without the parents even knowing.

You do know you can buy ESO and be underage right? Zenimax or other companies don't even check to see the PROPER ID of people buying the game. If a child "borrows" the card of the parent without even knowing that is called THEFT. Or how about all the pre paid credit cards you can buy that doesn't show your ID?

So yes, blame the parents.

WhyMustItBe

jaws343 wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

The people defending gambling crates amaze me. It's almost like gamers are asking to be treated like garbage.

People who use language like "gambling crates" sound like prohibitionists. It is more like gamers are asking to be treated like the adults we are; who understand that we can make a choice on how to spend our money. You know like adults and not a bunch of whiny prohibitionists who just want anything they don't like or don't want to do banned, even if it has absolutely zero impact on their lives. Because Crown Crates have zero impact on you if you do not buy them, period.

Repeating that it doesn't affect you if you don't buy them over and over doesn't make it true. It is well established it creates an incentive to market exclusively to big spenders and de-prioritize investment in the average customer. Quality and availability both are diminished and the value of a product all are paying for becomes lower for some than for others. This does affect people whether you personally agree with it or not. Changing a product from a subscription model to a product you MAYBE get if you're lucky DOES affect people missing out for not gambling, whether you personally agree with it or not. Cosmetics IS a huge value item in the digital economy, whether you personally agree with it or nor. Try to argue with facts not opinions.

Also, calling people "whiny prohibitionists" just makes your argument look petty and immature. Any time you feel the need to resort to insults to make a point, you probably don't have a point worth making, or taking very seriously. It is in your own self interest to develop a better communication strategy.

Lastly, implying "we are all adults so this is fine" completely ignores the fact that gambling regulations exist for a reason. You may not agree with the laws society has written, but unless they are changed by official process they are laws nonetheless. Your personal opinion about the law is irrelevant. I wonder how many people in prison are of the opinion the law they were convicted under was designed by a bunch of whiny pacifists?

The loot box micro transaction money grab IS unethical and SHOULD be regulated, for the specific reason that it is gambling with real money. Real. Money. Gambling. Period.

The fact you make people buy poker chips before they real-money gamble is irrelevant. You are a poker casino. You can't hand-wave abstract your way around the simple facts.

Tigerseye

jaws343 wrote: »

"appeal to children" is such a non-sense term though. Elements of strip clubs certainly appeal to 13 year olds. Guess we should get rid of those elements because sometimes children find their way in. Most things appeal to children in some way.

Past the doorman, you mean?

Kids don't just "find their way in" to strip clubs, that's the whole point, here.

Whereas, they do "find their way in" to games like this, all the time.

Unless you're invisioning some kind of stituation where they stand on each other's shoulders, wearing a long coat, a hat and a fake beard? xD

People need to stop hiding behind children while crusading against something they don't like.

If you mean me, I'm not "hiding behind children", I'm just addressing (at least) two possible issues with the whole gambling crate situation.

One is child-related; the other isn't (or, not directly).

I'm not "hiding" the one that isn't child-related behind the one that is.

I put them both out there.

NordSwordnBoard

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

You're not gonna shame ZOS into getting rid of Crown Crates. People who own a capacity for shame (or any amount of ethics whatsoever) would never have introduced gamble boxes in the first place. You can't guilt people with no good in their souls. All you can really do is never, ever, ever reward them for something you should be punishing them for. Purchase no crates. None. Never. Period.

Agree with this, sad but true.

HOWEVER, I would add that it IS possible to shame them into changing not so much by making them feel guilty, but by drawing unwanted public attention to their practices, so that legal and ethical regulators FINALLY catch up to this scandalous corruption and root it out of our modern digital markets like the toxic filth that it is. Props to Belgium for carrying the torch on that one.

That which grows in shadow but withers in the light does not belong on the vine.

Do you mean take action outside of the forum? I am genuinely curious to hear back about what you did, and how effective it was. I also applaud you for doing something instead of just saying things like the people who whine but are too lazy to do anything about it.

Davor

Genomic wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

The people defending gambling crates amaze me. It's almost like gamers are asking to be treated like garbage.

People who use language like "gambling crates" sound like prohibitionists. It is more like gamers are asking to be treated like the adults we are; who understand that we can make a choice on how to spend our money. You know like adults and not a bunch of whiny prohibitionists who just want anything they don't like or don't want to do banned, even if it has absolutely zero impact on their lives. Because Crown Crates have zero impact on you if you do not buy them, period.

They are gambling crates. Period. Calling them anything else is is lying to yourselves or your customers. Your following arguments are childish nonsense too.

You just made me think of something. How come Pokémon cards is not gambling, or Magic the Gathering is not gambling, hockey, baseball cards? Is it gambling? Technically they are loot crates but physical and not digital. I know people will use Collecting Cards as an excuse and here is why they can't use collecting cards as an excuse now.

Back then in my child hood in the 1970s and 80s, we had baseball, hockey cards. Thing is, there was no "exclusives" that we must have. So we didn't buy more to get "what we want" than "what we didn't want". In todays age, now we do. So maybe todays collecting cards can be called gambling now. Why do I say that, since my son wanted to start Magic the Gathering I tried it do it with him and do something he enjoys. Then we wanted "THAT CARD" so instead of buying packs, we bought the boxes to try "GET THOSE CARDS". We had a "RUSH" when we opened the cards. We got our excitement when we found something we like and got. We felt disappointment when we got "nothing". I realized this was gambling and we spent money when we didn't intend to. When I got addicted to the casinos and stopped going because I knew I had a problem, I felt the EXACT thing but with card collecting. So I am speaking of ACTUAL EXPERAINCE. I got the same feeling collecting Magic the Gathering cards as I was at a Casino. So I believe card collecting in todays age is gambling. It's not a big of an issue for little kids because they only buy what they can with what they have. Not unlike adults who will forgo food or house/rent or any other type of payments to do. This is why we don't hear about it. Adults don't want to be know for having an addiction for a "child's" game so it's not mentioned much or at all.

Times change. While it's true "you always get something" who wants "land cards" when you want "foil or the ultra rare cards"? Basically the land cards are thrown away (not like we already have tons of them) or put them away and never seen again. At least with physical cards we can always sell them even if it's for a penny or since we don't have pennies in Canada a nickel.

So now when it comes to digital loot boxes, how do we "sell" stuff we don't want? We can't. What do we do with them? We either ignore them, get rid of them or trade them in. Thing is, when gambling on a slot machine for example, don't we play to "hit the jackpot"? So when we win say $5, don't we just reuse it to play another round, or do we "cash it out"? Ok say we cash it out. When we cash it out we get $5. Thing is, with loot boxes, if we cash something out that costs $5, we only get $1 in return for example. So it's even worse than real life gambling. We are getting less than if it was physical.

So we will have to call what it is. Gambling is gambling no matter what. At least when it comes to physical gambling we can sell what we don't want. We can't do that with loot crates. And when we do have an option to get something else in return, it's worth even less. So "The House" always wins no matter what when it comes to loot crates.

In the end.

NordSwordnBoard

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

The people defending gambling crates amaze me. It's almost like gamers are asking to be treated like garbage.

People who use language like "gambling crates" sound like prohibitionists. It is more like gamers are asking to be treated like the adults we are; who understand that we can make a choice on how to spend our money. You know like adults and not a bunch of whiny prohibitionists who just want anything they don't like or don't want to do banned, even if it has absolutely zero impact on their lives. Because Crown Crates have zero impact on you if you do not buy them, period.

Repeating that it doesn't affect you if you don't buy them over and over doesn't make it true. It is well established it creates an incentive to market exclusively to big spenders and de-prioritize investment in the average customer. Quality and availability both are diminished and the value of a product all are paying for becomes lower for some than for others. This does affect people whether you personally agree with it or not. Changing a product from a subscription model to a product you MAYBE get if you're lucky DOES affect people missing out for not gambling, whether you personally agree with it or not. Cosmetics IS a huge value item in the digital economy, whether you personally agree with it or nor. Try to argue with facts not opinions.

Also, calling people "whiny prohibitionists" just makes your argument look petty and immature. Any time you feel the need to resort to insults to make a point, you probably don't have a point worth making, or taking very seriously. It is in your own self interest to develop a better communication strategy.

Lastly, implying "we are all adults so this is fine" completely ignores the fact that gambling regulations exist for a reason. You may not agree with the laws society has written, but unless they are changed by official process they are laws nonetheless. Your personal opinion about the law is irrelevant. I wonder how many people in prison are of the opinion the law they were convicted under was designed by a bunch of whiny pacifists?

The loot box micro transaction money grab IS unethical and SHOULD be regulated, for the specific reason that it is gambling with real money. Real. Money. Gambling. Period.

The fact you make people buy poker chips before they real-money gamble is irrelevant. You are a poker casino. You can't hand-wave abstract your way around the simple facts.

You can exchange casino chips for real currency; crowns are worthless irl after purchase. Just like when you play carnival games of chance/skill or arcade games with tokens. You can't get your money back. Why is there no outrage for the carnies and arcades, or better yet, how do they still operate as such egregious social blights? Is a carnival game gambling under your definition as well?

Tigerseye

By the way, I will just add that I have bought two lots of these crates, in the past and a very kind friend bought me a third (as I liked the pets this month!).

I quite enjoy opening them, even though I won very little, both this time and last and had to buy 3 of the 4 pets I wanted, this time, with traded-in gems.

So, I'm not so opposed to them that I won't ever buy them.

In the case of people who are over 18, don't have a gambling problem and can limit themselves to what they can afford, they're actually quite a fun way of getting small things (like pets) you would have bought (for a reasonable price), anyway.

Problem is, some people clearly aren't over 18 and/or don't have much money and/or can't limit themselves and for those people, it is a constant temptation they can't easily avoid and (possibly) even the start of a lifelong gambling addiction.

I'm anti prohibition, but if you knew someone was an alcoholic, you wouldn't force them to have a bar permanently set-up in their living room, where they couldn't get away from it, would you?

Kiralyn2000

Davor wrote: »

You just made me think of something. How come Pokémon cards is not gambling, or Magic the Gathering is not gambling, hockey, baseball cards? Is it gambling?

Collectable figure blind-boxes, those little toy capsules that come out of the machines at the grocery store entrance, Kinder eggs...

Back then in my child hood in the 1970s and 80s, we had baseball, hockey cards. Thing is, there was no "exclusives" that we must have. So we didn't buy more to get "what we want" than "what we didn't want".

Eh, there was wanting to get Your Favorite Player. Or that special Rookie Card. Or the last three cards to complete your set. Or...
(and then there were the collectors)





And hey! There's repeating dungeon runs because you want to break open the loot box boss at the end for a chance to get That Piece Of Gear You Really Need™. Doesn't cost anything, you say? Ah, but time has value. If your time is worth $X/hour, and it takes 30m per run, you're "spending" $X/2 on every random draw from the "box". I can't wait for Congress to pass a stupid feel-good law about loot boxes, with such vague wording that one of those class-action-suit factories ("20-inch monitors are actually 19.87 inches because of the bezel? OMG, so many customers have been Harmed™, we must sue to get everyone $1 in damages, and $50million in fees for ourselves!") can file a lawsuit against all gaming ever for addicting kids to random loot drops.

Tandor

Tigerseye wrote: »

By the way, I will just add that I have bought two lots of these crates, in the past and a very kind friend bought me a third (as I liked the pets this month!).

I quite enjoy opening them, even though I won very little, both this time and last and had to buy 3 of the 4 pets I wanted, this time, with traded-in gems.

So, I'm not so opposed to them that I won't ever buy them.

In the case of people who are over 18, don't have a gambling problem and can limit themselves to what they can afford, they're actually quite a fun way of getting small things (like pets) you would have bought (for a reasonable price), anyway.

Problem is, some people clearly aren't over 18 and/or don't have much money and/or can't limit themselves and for those people, it is a constant temptation they can't easily avoid and (possibly) even the start of a lifelong gambling addiction.

I'm anti prohibition, but if you knew someone was an alcoholic, you wouldn't force them to have a bar permanently set-up in their living room, where they couldn't get away from it, would you?

No, but nor would you force every bar that they have to walk past every day of their life to close down either.

Just acting as devil's advocate here, I don't particularly support crown crates and don't buy them, but I don't tarnish all buyers with the same brush and the crates in this game are very different to the loot boxes in some other games. If the crates contribute significantly to the game's revenue then their critics have to come up with an alternative source of revenue if they want to do away with crates in order to protect those few who walk past such temptations every day of their lives.

Siohwenoeht

FakeFox wrote: »

I have gone over to spending no money on the game apart from my subscription, because spending any additional money just gets you stuck in that circle of frustration and temptation to spend more money. But us having to regulate our selfs in that should not be the solution. At the point where I spend real money their should be no randomization involved. You also wouldn't buy a car for the company to roll a dice on the color you receive.

Actually I rather think we need more self control as a society. Blaming companies for tempting you to buy things is diverting the blame from yourself. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

Shantu

Lots of "addictive" mentality in this game. I don't buy crown crates or blow cash on motifs, mounts, outfits, or much of anything that I can't find in-game. I am, however, addicted to quickly removing the extreme annoyance I feel with the mount speed when creating a new character. 6 months to totally level up a mount is absurd...but it works as a smelly marketing ploy. Crown store gets me every time.

Bruccius

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

I have gone over to spending no money on the game apart from my subscription, because spending any additional money just gets you stuck in that circle of frustration and temptation to spend more money. But us having to regulate our selfs in that should not be the solution. At the point where I spend real money their should be no randomization involved. You also wouldn't buy a car for the company to roll a dice on the color you receive.

Actually I rather think we need more self control as a society. Blaming companies for tempting you to buy things is diverting the blame from yourself. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

Preach!

JumpmanLane

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

As the title says, its getting more and more clear, that zenimax wanna hop on the "abusing people with gambling issue" train. Like many other games on the market, whos names shall not be said here, they are abusing those 2-5% player base who actually buy the hard to get, expensive to get store items. And im not talking about those people who get 15 crates every season and see if they are lucky. No there are people that spend hundrets and hundrets of dollar/euro/dogecoin to get all the mounts outfits houses etc. Those people can`t stop that behaviour even when they are deeply in debt and living on welfare.

I came to this game, because it did not have those exploiting mechanics. And now its showing its ugly face. The only thing we can do is wait for other countrys to join belgium in declaring loot boxes illegal ( https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 ) or leave this game which will result in Zenimax trying to milk the rest of the player base even more.

This fool one day in discord said he’d sold 7k United States DOLLARS worth of crowns with the goal of becoming a BILLIONAIRE (in gold) in the game. For WHAT?

The moron didn’t say. He did go on and on about flipping high gold items in traders. I sort of tuned the dummy out after that lol.

D0PAMINE

JumpmanLane wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

As the title says, its getting more and more clear, that zenimax wanna hop on the "abusing people with gambling issue" train. Like many other games on the market, whos names shall not be said here, they are abusing those 2-5% player base who actually buy the hard to get, expensive to get store items. And im not talking about those people who get 15 crates every season and see if they are lucky. No there are people that spend hundrets and hundrets of dollar/euro/dogecoin to get all the mounts outfits houses etc. Those people can`t stop that behaviour even when they are deeply in debt and living on welfare.

I came to this game, because it did not have those exploiting mechanics. And now its showing its ugly face. The only thing we can do is wait for other countrys to join belgium in declaring loot boxes illegal ( https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 ) or leave this game which will result in Zenimax trying to milk the rest of the player base even more.

This fool one day in discord said he’d sold 7k United States DOLLARS worth of crowns with the goal of becoming a BILLIONAIRE (in gold) in the game. For WHAT?

The moron didn’t say. He did go on and on about flipping high gold items in traders. I sort of tuned the dummy out after that lol.

You don't even need gold to be rich. Most of us have friends we trade or give away rare crap too. My friend sent me a Spell Strat Infused inferno for nothing. I gave it away to some random dude. 7k real money? I would have tuned him out as well. Thats such a waste.

Colecovision

Davor wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

The people defending gambling crates amaze me. It's almost like gamers are asking to be treated like garbage.

People who use language like "gambling crates" sound like prohibitionists. It is more like gamers are asking to be treated like the adults we are; who understand that we can make a choice on how to spend our money. You know like adults and not a bunch of whiny prohibitionists who just want anything they don't like or don't want to do banned, even if it has absolutely zero impact on their lives. Because Crown Crates have zero impact on you if you do not buy them, period.

They are gambling crates. Period. Calling them anything else is is lying to yourselves or your customers. Your following arguments are childish nonsense too.

You just made me think of something. How come Pokémon cards is not gambling, or Magic the Gathering is not gambling, hockey, baseball cards? Is it gambling? Technically they are loot crates but physical and not digital. I know people will use Collecting Cards as an excuse and here is why they can't use collecting cards as an excuse now.

Back then in my child hood in the 1970s and 80s, we had baseball, hockey cards. Thing is, there was no "exclusives" that we must have. So we didn't buy more to get "what we want" than "what we didn't want". In todays age, now we do. So maybe todays collecting cards can be called gambling now. Why do I say that, since my son wanted to start Magic the Gathering I tried it do it with him and do something he enjoys. Then we wanted "THAT CARD" so instead of buying packs, we bought the boxes to try "GET THOSE CARDS". We had a "RUSH" when we opened the cards. We got our excitement when we found something we like and got. We felt disappointment when we got "nothing". I realized this was gambling and we spent money when we didn't intend to. When I got addicted to the casinos and stopped going because I knew I had a problem, I felt the EXACT thing but with card collecting. So I am speaking of ACTUAL EXPERAINCE. I got the same feeling collecting Magic the Gathering cards as I was at a Casino. So I believe card collecting in todays age is gambling. It's not a big of an issue for little kids because they only buy what they can with what they have. Not unlike adults who will forgo food or house/rent or any other type of payments to do. This is why we don't hear about it. Adults don't want to be know for having an addiction for a "child's" game so it's not mentioned much or at all.

Times change. While it's true "you always get something" who wants "land cards" when you want "foil or the ultra rare cards"? Basically the land cards are thrown away (not like we already have tons of them) or put them away and never seen again. At least with physical cards we can always sell them even if it's for a penny or since we don't have pennies in Canada a nickel.

So now when it comes to digital loot boxes, how do we "sell" stuff we don't want? We can't. What do we do with them? We either ignore them, get rid of them or trade them in. Thing is, when gambling on a slot machine for example, don't we play to "hit the jackpot"? So when we win say $5, don't we just reuse it to play another round, or do we "cash it out"? Ok say we cash it out. When we cash it out we get $5. Thing is, with loot boxes, if we cash something out that costs $5, we only get $1 in return for example. So it's even worse than real life gambling. We are getting less than if it was physical.

So we will have to call what it is. Gambling is gambling no matter what. At least when it comes to physical gambling we can sell what we don't want. We can't do that with loot crates. And when we do have an option to get something else in return, it's worth even less. So "The House" always wins no matter what when it comes to loot crates.

In the end.

I think your trading card comparison is a great one. And kids can't support that industry in it's current form. Adults go in to shops and drop $1,000 looking for a big 1/1 hit. Without the whales it would fall apart. But, the companies have to put the odds of getting specific hits on their packs. Then the checklists are available. So you know exactly what your getting into. Zos should be required to do the same, but that's the end of what I would restrict.

abzdeman

Wow bravo you called them out. Only a matter of time before the gambling law takes place worldwide.

ArchMikem

Shame on ZOS because some people cant handle having a debit card?

Perwulf

Only way to woke them

karekiz

Colecovision wrote: »

Microtransactions began when people started buying things for real money illicitly off third parties, and then accelerated substantially when players started demanding F2P and B2P business models instead of the traditional subscription model. All of that started with cash shops and then the concept of loot boxes was added with developers trying them out and finding that enough players liked them to make them commercially attractive.

Which also became a thing when people realized that you paying 15.00 USD a month for every single mmo out there actually rarely meant anything. You weren't backed with CS and could literally be scummed out of monthly payments even after you quit <Many MMO's did this and still do>. Paying 15.00 NEVER meant "more content". Ever. 15.00 USD is just a convient payment since every other MMO uses it, and why exactly does a game with a playerbase of say 200K need the *same* money as one with upwards to 10 million players. Shouldn't the cost go up/down with more employment cost/server cost? Nope. Sadly nobody really thinks about that.

For example:

The secret world - Funcom

I had paid for a sub for the FIRST time since WOTLK wow. Boom one week in and they announce they are not supporting TSW officially and no futher content will be made. They would relaunch the game into something new.

Contact CS immediantly for a refund. Cause you know they took 90.00 USD out for "supporting" the product they don't even support. What did CS tell me?

"We can refund you 5 months worth, but cant fully refund you because you used *ONE* week of that month and that meant I couldn't be refunded the sub since I - and I quote here - Used it."

Never subbing ever again unless i'm DAMN sure the game is #1 and support won't be dropped randomly - WoW or nothing essentially.


So yeah if loot boxes keep games from being sub only, I am quite happy with them.

MLGProPlayer

Welcome to 2018.

95% of all online games today feature loot boxes. The only way this problem will go away is if governments start regulating it, which they won't. Collectible card packs have been introducing kids to gambling for over 20 years years now (even longer if you consider sports cards) without anyone batting an eye.

Sylvermynx

Well, I paid subs for both WoW and RIFT, 6 months at a time - multiples AAMOF - 7 in WoW (from 2006 until 2013), 5 in RIFT (from 2013 until 2016). When I canceled my subs in both games, they never charged me again. So I haven't had that problem at all. Then again, those were the only prior MMOs I ever played....

Glurin

karekiz wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

Microtransactions began when people started buying things for real money illicitly off third parties, and then accelerated substantially when players started demanding F2P and B2P business models instead of the traditional subscription model. All of that started with cash shops and then the concept of loot boxes was added with developers trying them out and finding that enough players liked them to make them commercially attractive.

Which also became a thing when people realized that you paying 15.00 USD a month for every single mmo out there actually rarely meant anything. You weren't backed with CS and could literally be scummed out of monthly payments even after you quit <Many MMO's did this and still do>. Paying 15.00 NEVER meant "more content". Ever. 15.00 USD is just a convient payment since every other MMO uses it, and why exactly does a game with a playerbase of say 200K need the *same* money as one with upwards to 10 million players. Shouldn't the cost go up/down with more employment cost/server cost? Nope. Sadly nobody really thinks about that.

For example:

The secret world - Funcom

I had paid for a sub for the FIRST time since WOTLK wow. Boom one week in and they announce they are not supporting TSW officially and no futher content will be made. They would relaunch the game into something new.

Contact CS immediantly for a refund. Cause you know they took 90.00 USD out for "supporting" the product they don't even support. What did CS tell me?

"We can refund you 5 months worth, but cant fully refund you because you used *ONE* week of that month and that meant I couldn't be refunded the sub since I - and I quote here - Used it."

Never subbing ever again unless i'm DAMN sure the game is #1 and support won't be dropped randomly - WoW or nothing essentially.


So yeah if loot boxes keep games from being sub only, I am quite happy with them.

Amen.

But, with a caveat. Microtransactions and loot boxes and such, are all fine and dandy as long as they are kept at reasonable levels. Some half decent drop rates on the random stuff and reasonable prices on those virtual hats and jackets. Personally, I just stop buying stuff when they become unreasonable. You'd actually have to pay me to try for any of the Apex rewards in crown crates, for example.

Sylvermynx

Glurin wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Colecovision wrote: »

Microtransactions began when people started buying things for real money illicitly off third parties, and then accelerated substantially when players started demanding F2P and B2P business models instead of the traditional subscription model. All of that started with cash shops and then the concept of loot boxes was added with developers trying them out and finding that enough players liked them to make them commercially attractive.

Which also became a thing when people realized that you paying 15.00 USD a month for every single mmo out there actually rarely meant anything. You weren't backed with CS and could literally be scummed out of monthly payments even after you quit <Many MMO's did this and still do>. Paying 15.00 NEVER meant "more content". Ever. 15.00 USD is just a convient payment since every other MMO uses it, and why exactly does a game with a playerbase of say 200K need the *same* money as one with upwards to 10 million players. Shouldn't the cost go up/down with more employment cost/server cost? Nope. Sadly nobody really thinks about that.

For example:

The secret world - Funcom

I had paid for a sub for the FIRST time since WOTLK wow. Boom one week in and they announce they are not supporting TSW officially and no futher content will be made. They would relaunch the game into something new.

Contact CS immediantly for a refund. Cause you know they took 90.00 USD out for "supporting" the product they don't even support. What did CS tell me?

"We can refund you 5 months worth, but cant fully refund you because you used *ONE* week of that month and that meant I couldn't be refunded the sub since I - and I quote here - Used it."

Never subbing ever again unless i'm DAMN sure the game is #1 and support won't be dropped randomly - WoW or nothing essentially.


So yeah if loot boxes keep games from being sub only, I am quite happy with them.

Amen.

But, with a caveat. Microtransactions and loot boxes and such, are all fine and dandy as long as they are kept at reasonable levels. Some half decent drop rates on the random stuff and reasonable prices on those virtual hats and jackets. Personally, I just stop buying stuff when they become unreasonable. You'd actually have to pay me to try for any of the Apex rewards in crown crates, for example.

Well, I find the apex mounts truly ugly, so it's definitely not a problem for me. I'm talking specifically about the "glowbug" look... I really like the Frostbane Sabre Cat I got out of the last crate I bought. And I won't be buying any more for a while, as there's nothing I really want from the current "collection".

Billy2112

YOU do not need what is in the boxes. YOU want what is in the boxes and cannot have it. So in order to vent you're frustration you are making a post about exploiting gamblers. You are not going to stop people with money spending there money on shinnies you cannot have. Gamblers will gamble here or in an actual gambling hall for more money then a few hundred boxes. The money those 'gamblers' drop on the game is paying for the development of the game and FREE VILLAS ZOS gives out. Not every one will have the same outcome and there is no way you or anyone is going to change that.

DaveMoeDee

It is funny how people try to make this into an issue about gambling addiction when video game addiction is a far more salient issue. Video games try to take advantage of that compulsive behavior and this ruins some people's lives when they are neglecting responsibilities to play video games. Why aren't you protesting about that? Why don't we get rid of video games people are concerned about addiction?

I'm guessing it is because people want stuff cheap and will latch on to any supposed moral argument to feel they are righteous in their indignation.

zaria

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

As the title says, its getting more and more clear, that zenimax wanna hop on the "abusing people with gambling issue" train. Like many other games on the market, whos names shall not be said here, they are abusing those 2-5% player base who actually buy the hard to get, expensive to get store items. And im not talking about those people who get 15 crates every season and see if they are lucky. No there are people that spend hundrets and hundrets of dollar/euro/dogecoin to get all the mounts outfits houses etc. Those people can`t stop that behaviour even when they are deeply in debt and living on welfare.

I came to this game, because it did not have those exploiting mechanics. And now its showing its ugly face. The only thing we can do is wait for other countrys to join belgium in declaring loot boxes illegal ( https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 ) or leave this game which will result in Zenimax trying to milk the rest of the player base even more.

While I hate lot boxes it has been no change the last years after the radiant apex mounts.
That is outside of ZoS first gave out lots of free crates and then stopped, probably as people get so many gems they stopped buying crates.
Yes in part the last crate sessions has probably been less popular and that most players has an wide selection in cosmetic and is less likely to buy overpriced reskins.

magikarper

reoskit wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »

It really is sad, for they have no shame.

If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.

They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.

Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.

It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.

With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."

Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.

We're up to the DSM V. Diagnostic definitions change.

Also, whether the behavior is an addiction or akin to an addiction, do the semantics matter that much? Regardless of what buzzwords are used, it seems hard to deny that encouraging people to spend $50 for 15 "crates" that contain mostly common crap, in hopes of being a lucky winner of a nicer, rarer set of pixels those people don't own, isn't promoting healthy habits or behaviors.

I'm not thrilled with a cash shops in general, but it seems more ethical to me to set prices for items, rather than encouraging people to play games of chance in hopes of getting what they want to buy. The only reason for introducing the games of chance is to get people to pay more than whatever they were willing to pay for the given mount, costume, etc. Surely "gaming" companies tweak the RNG and loot tables to max their revenues at the expense of the players.

Bottom line is I don't care whether we call it gambling, addiction, games of chance, carney games, or whatever. It's sleezy.

sevomd69

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

As the title says, its getting more and more clear, that zenimax wanna hop on the "abusing people with gambling issue" train. Like many other games on the market, whos names shall not be said here, they are abusing those 2-5% player base who actually buy the hard to get, expensive to get store items. And im not talking about those people who get 15 crates every season and see if they are lucky. No there are people that spend hundrets and hundrets of dollar/euro/dogecoin to get all the mounts outfits houses etc. Those people can`t stop that behaviour even when they are deeply in debt and living on welfare.

I came to this game, because it did not have those exploiting mechanics. And now its showing its ugly face. The only thing we can do is wait for other countrys to join belgium in declaring loot boxes illegal ( https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 ) or leave this game which will result in Zenimax trying to milk the rest of the player base even more.

...or you could move to Belgium....or you could just not buy the crates...just saying...

Remag_Div

Agreed, it's gross and exploitative.

900 gems for both the mount and pet is both hilarious yet depressing at the same time.

It's clear ZOS is getting more and more extreme with these prices as time goes on. All cosmetic, yes, but still not a good look for them.