Elder Scrolls Online is slowly turning into a game that exploits gamers with a gambling addiction

PeterUnlustig

As the title says, its getting more and more clear, that zenimax wanna hop on the "abusing people with gambling issue" train. Like many other games on the market, whos names shall not be said here, they are abusing those 2-5% player base who actually buy the hard to get, expensive to get store items. And im not talking about those people who get 15 crates every season and see if they are lucky. No there are people that spend hundrets and hundrets of dollar/euro/dogecoin to get all the mounts outfits houses etc. Those people can`t stop that behaviour even when they are deeply in debt and living on welfare.

I came to this game, because it did not have those exploiting mechanics. And now its showing its ugly face. The only thing we can do is wait for other countrys to join belgium in declaring loot boxes illegal ( https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 ) or leave this game which will result in Zenimax trying to milk the rest of the player base even more.

TheMythicDawn

It really is sad, for they have no shame.

If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.

They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.

ZarkingFrued

Shame on you ZOS

Lisutaris

ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »

It really is sad, for they have no shame.

If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.

They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.

"Greed Never Changes"

Turelus

Games publishers are going to push these kinds of things until they can't get away with it because right now they can and it makes them A LOT of money.

If you want change stop screaming at the people who can't make changes (ZOS development team) and start getting annoyed at the publishers (ZeniMax Media Inc in this case) or contacting officials in your country about the issue to raise awareness with them.

Be polite and constructive and explain the issues with them, there is plenty of material one can link to with in depth explanations of the issues (though I would avoid linking Jim Sterling to many officials).

FakeFox

I have gone over to spending no money on the game apart from my subscription, because spending any additional money just gets you stuck in that circle of frustration and temptation to spend more money. But us having to regulate our selfs in that should not be the solution. At the point where I spend real money their should be no randomization involved. You also wouldn't buy a car for the company to roll a dice on the color you receive.

Oakmontowls_ESO

ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »

It really is sad, for they have no shame.

If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.

They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.

Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.

Salvas_Aren

Maybe someone will write a thesis on this topic. Would be plenty to write about, sufficient for a dissertation or higher.

yodased

While I can appreciate the sentiment of the post, you really are reaching here. Gambling addiction for sure is a real thing and loot boxes very well could be a trigger leading to irrational behavior, but I doubt this is going to be creating addicts from ZOS crates.

Does your country have the lottery? Casinos? Horse/Dog Tracks? Poker Rooms? Chicken Fights? Dog Fights?

There are innumerable ways for someone with a predilection for gambling to get in trouble. For that matter, how does the game itself not trigger the same reaction in these people?

The entirety of every game like this is based on gambling. Every single item that is opened with a chance of a gold item is a slot machine. Why are these people ok with this situation and not suffering from sleep deprivation and getting fired from their job because they have to find the golden cheese?

Is your point that the loot boxes affect them differently because there is real world consequences to purchasing lotto tickets in the game?

How do these poor people go to the gas station without buying all the lotto tickets?

Also, if you are on welfare from gambling how do you have the necessary means to have a computer with specs to run the game, a place to play for the time needed to become addicted, internet access without restriction?

Every time I see these arguments, its a false agenda, it's much more likely that you don't like the loot boxes and are looking for a reason to get rid of them vs actually thinking that they lead to bankruptcy or whatever else you want to attribute to them.

Do I like lootboxes? Of course not, no one does. Do I realize that I have no control over the situation other than to not purchase them? Of course I do, I'm an adult who understands the consequence of spending available funds on irrelevant things.

Have the real discussion, bring valid points why the concept is not valid, don't reach for mental health because it is an easy target is all im saying.

OFFL1MIT

if person weak minded so be it. Smart person knows that crown store is just visuals and not going to look at it, or he will use crown store for good purposes, like supporting game. They still need to make profit, to pay for salaries and servers and other services. If you were a victim of it, than you need to seek for help to understand what's real and what's just for entertainment.
I think zos is generous, looking at other games where you buy base of the game and dlc and in total they cost $100+ dollars, which is insane what it used to be back in years $39.99 for all content, and even cheaper before those years.
Zos could have made big money from indrik mount, selling it at crown store, but they didnt. they give it for free, like morrowind for free, it's almost there's no games like this with popular titles this generous.
Lets be honest now, game industries making big money these days, even more than selling goods warehouses. If you dont like it , dont play it, if you have inner demons inside you and have gambling problems seek for help.

Tandor

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »

It really is sad, for they have no shame.

If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.

They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.

Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.

This.

It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't. There is nothing essential to the running of the game on sale, whether in the crates or the store, and for that ZOS deserve recognition because it's not something you can say about every game. Beware what you wish for, however, because if a developer can't make money one way then they will make it another way - they are a business, when all said and done.

Starlock

From what I understand - and I have not properly researched this issue at length - the game industry as a whole began a shift towards microtransactions when computer phones became all the rage. Of course, having a small computer in the pocket of so many consumers represented an opportunity to be exploited. And exploited it was, with cheap or "free" applications that required (or offered) additional enhancements to game play for outrageous sums of money. Those same models made their way into the computer and console gaming markets, because it was successful. Of course it's successful - it's predatory. Why offer a customer a finished game for $30-60 when you can string them along and suck two, three, or ten times that sum out of them? Gamble boxes are among the worst incarnation of these changes in monetization, but even if they go away, monetization schemes in games will continue to be problematic now that microtransactions have become normalized in both the industry and to consumer's minds.

Zenimax is, for better or worse, following industry trends. I can't fault them, in of themselves. They're doing what they believe they need to do. There are moments where I asked myself "do I want to continue supporting this game in spite of Zenimax practicing what I consider to be blatantly unethical and rip-off marketing strategies?" That's been a yes so far, because I play the game a lot and it delivers the sorts of things I look for in a game. Still, I'm getting tired of the marketing crap. Seriously, the folks who work on this game do fantastic work. But for the love of the gods, tone down the sleazy marketing.

Tandor

Starlock wrote: »

From what I understand - and I have not properly researched this issue at length - the game industry as a whole began a shift towards microtransactions when computer phones became all the rage. Of course, having a small computer in the pocket of so many consumers represented an opportunity to be exploited. And exploited it was, with cheap or "free" applications that required (or offered) additional enhancements to game play for outrageous sums of money. Those same models made their way into the computer and console gaming markets, because it was successful. Of course it's successful - it's predatory. Why offer a customer a finished game for $30-60 when you can string them along and suck two, three, or ten times that sum out of them? Gamble boxes are among the worst incarnation of these changes in monetization, but even if they go away, monetization schemes in games will continue to be problematic now that microtransactions have become normalized in both the industry and to consumer's minds.

Zenimax is, for better or worse, following industry trends. I can't fault them, in of themselves. They're doing what they believe they need to do. There are moments where I asked myself "do I want to continue supporting this game in spite of Zenimax practicing what I consider to be blatantly unethical and rip-off marketing strategies?" That's been a yes so far, because I play the game a lot and it delivers the sorts of things I look for in a game. Still, I'm getting tired of the marketing crap. Seriously, the folks who work on this game do fantastic work. But for the love of the gods, tone down the sleazy marketing.

Microtransactions began when people started buying things for real money illicitly off third parties, and then accelerated substantially when players started demanding F2P and B2P business models instead of the traditional subscription model. All of that started with cash shops and then the concept of loot boxes was added with developers trying them out and finding that enough players liked them to make them commercially attractive.

Ohtimbar

I was initially ambivalent about microtransactions, loot boxes etc, but I have been pursuaded to change my opinion. It is fundamentally exploitative and preys on human weaknesses in a way that feels slimy. It's also getting worse every year. Rising costs, never substantiated with cold hard numbers, are insufficient to account for this phenomenon. It is simply greed, and I think it has the potential to mortally wound what was once a fun hobby run by people passionate about gaming, not by a bunch of cold-blooded vulture capitalists.

mxxo

They will go on till mmos are dead. You cant do such things with single player games where you always have a lot of competitors. But mmos are basically a market where publishers can do what they want. And they dont care if you are happy, they only care for your cash.

Suddwrath

yodased

mxxo wrote: »

They will go on till mmos are dead. You cant do such things with single player games where you always have a lot of competitors. But mmos are basically a market where publishers can do what they want. And they dont care if you are happy, they only care for your cash.

They can't get away with this model in non-multiplayer because there are not other humans to be jealous of you.

It's a simple concept, if you have all the big bad shiny things and another person doesn't you feel superior to them and it feels good to be "better" than another player.

That would be the most feasible route to changing lootboxes, a psychological basis vs a gambling addiction. You in theory could present the lootboxes as a way to segregate players by liquid income. The environment today is much more receptive to this type of "unfairness" than it is for problem gambling.

Frame it around interpersonal connections probably will get you more traction.

The interesting thing though is the attack vector is always against the company providing these lootboxes, when the real ability to change the system rests solely on the people buying them.

Like it, Hate it, Indifferent to it, the reason it exists is because its profitable and easy.

Get people to stop buying them and magically they will disappear.

Good luck with that, people with large sums of liquid capital are usually not going to care much about those below them and their ability to purchase things.

Synthwavius

Welcome to B2P game with F2P business model

Colecovision

It used to be 25 cents to play for a short amount of time. Video game micro transactions began with computer space in 1971. Perhaps earlier if we count an oddball radar screen game. But computer space laid the foundation for the silver age of gaming. Then pacman made billions of dollars 1 quarter at a time as the golden age's undisputed champion.

Later brawler games that allowed you to continue created pay to win. Double dragon was the most popular of it's type. Cellphones updated these ideas, but didn't create them.

If you want to talk about creating gamblers, start with redemption games aimed at children as soon as they can push a button. Chuck E Cheese is where it begins, not loot boxes.

reoskit

Tandor wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »

It really is sad, for they have no shame.

If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.

They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.

Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.

It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.

With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."

Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.

MamaDruid

Tandor wrote: »

Microtransactions began when people started buying things for real money illicitly off third parties, and then accelerated substantially when players started demanding F2P and B2P business models instead of the traditional subscription model. All of that started with cash shops and then the concept of loot boxes was added with developers trying them out and finding that enough players liked them to make them commercially attractive.

Exactly. WoW Vanilla's gold farmers didn't start farming because it was fun. There was a market for buying virtual currency with real money. From a business perspective, figuring out how to capture, and grow, that market makes perfect sense.

Until loot boxes are considered a form of gambling in the US, it would be stupid to not make as much money as they can. In essence, we are their loot boxes.

Tandor

reoskit wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »

It really is sad, for they have no shame.

If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.

They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.

Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.

It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.

With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."

Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.

I understand it all too well, but there's no evidence of e.g. crate buyers being for the most part addicts or other victims of corporate greed, and while some may well be if everyone else stopped buying the crates they wouldn't remain viable.

"Evidence" is also something that a lot of people don't understand the definition of when railing against loot boxes.

Asardes

I'm a grownup and don't throw my hard earned cash even at IRL things that are useful, like a new PC (7+ years, working just fine, only changed burned graphics after 4), phone (almost 4) or car (I don't own one, use mass transit). There's no chance in hell I'll buy crowns on top of the sub allowance or buy anything but utility items in game with what I have and rarely some guaranteed cosmetics. And I'm not poor, in fact I have a decent salary. So I imagine how much richer those players that afford to gamble hundreds of dollars for pixels. As long as they don't put gear in those crates, and make it into a P2W and they stick to purely cosmetic stuff I'm totaly fine with it. If people pay to engage in an entirely optional activity using their plentiful finances, just let them do it.

mayasunrising

Starlock wrote: »

Why offer a customer a finished game for $30-60 when you can string them along and suck two, three, or ten times that sum out of them?

You can finish the entirety of the base game and still have plenty of repeatable content without ever spending anything more than the cost of the initial game. You don't even need to sub to do it. Stack on top of that ZOS now giving everyone the Morrowind expansion for free, and offering DLC during daily logins, and I'm REALLY failing to see your point.

Will ZOS continue to look for ways to create income for themselves? Yes. They have to as a company, but I have seen no reason for people to jump on this greed bandwagon. If you think the ADDITIONAL content, expansion, and LUXURY/COSMETIC items are too expensive, then don't buy them. Simple. Don't sub. Simple.

If you have a gambling addiction, please do seek help with someone who specializes in addiction recovery.

VaranisArano

Slowly?

I mean, if that's how you interpret crown crates and the Crown Store prices, the game has been there for some time already.


I guess, "slowly" only in the sense of gradually turning up the heat in the pot as you boil the lobster...

reoskit

VaranisArano wrote: »

I guess, "slowly" only in the sense of gradually turning up the heat in the pot as you boil the lobster...

Unrelated tangent: that's a fantastic way to get food poisoning.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled forums.

mayasunrising

reoskit wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »

It really is sad, for they have no shame.

If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.

They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.

Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.

It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.

With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."

Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.

As someone who has an addictive personality (gaming, smoking, OCD/impulse control issues) I do understand addiction. I have been in therapy to help me with those and other mental health issues. I don't feel, and a wide majority of experts would agree, that the onus of managing a person's mental health issues does not lie with companies providing services. It lies with the individual - or those who support them if they are unable to seek help on their own.

As someone with addictive personality traits, I feel no desire to buy crates because they don't offer me any advantage in game. It's just pretty stuff. I can't even sell the items for the most part. I'm more inclined to binge in Cyrodiil or a dungeon to complete an armor set then I am to waste money on crates, and even the item grind in this game is pretty easy.

If you don't like crates, don't buy them. If you think ZOS asks too much for luxury items, DLC, and expansions, don't buy those things. If you think ZOS are a bunch of thieving crooks and hate them that badly, don't sub - or even better don't support them by continuing to play the game. No one forced you to buy the base game in the first place. Do take some responsibility for yourself.

Hey, if ZOS were actually implementing a pay-to-win scenario I might jump on this bandwagon. But they're not, and in the early days of the game they promised they never would. I have seen nothing thusfar to even imply that they are moving in that direction.

VaranisArano

reoskit wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I guess, "slowly" only in the sense of gradually turning up the heat in the pot as you boil the lobster...

Unrelated tangent: that's a fantastic way to get food poisoning.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled forums.

Okay. Had to double check it since I've, uh, never actually cooked lobster. Just heard that talked about.

So, tangent, discovered that according to https://umaine.edu/lobsterinstitute/education/cooking-eating-a-lobster/

"Slow heating in salt water from room temperature results in increased activity (of the cooking lobster) when the water reaches a temperature of around 30°C/86°F. This activity lasts 2-3 minutes and then subsides."

Fun stuff! Apparently the best way to minimize lobster activity is to chill/ice it before dropping it into a rolling boil.

*Looks at ice mount*

Okay, now I'm worried.

Anyways, thanks for teaching me something new today!

gepe87

Profit to more game development? Nah. Get a lot of money, then close the game and create another.

jaws343

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

As the title says, its getting more and more clear, that zenimax wanna hop on the "abusing people with gambling issue" train. Like many other games on the market, whos names shall not be said here, they are abusing those 2-5% player base who actually buy the hard to get, expensive to get store items. And im not talking about those people who get 15 crates every season and see if they are lucky. No there are people that spend hundrets and hundrets of dollar/euro/dogecoin to get all the mounts outfits houses etc. Those people can`t stop that behaviour even when they are deeply in debt and living on welfare.

I came to this game, because it did not have those exploiting mechanics. And now its showing its ugly face. The only thing we can do is wait for other countrys to join belgium in declaring loot boxes illegal ( https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 ) or leave this game which will result in Zenimax trying to milk the rest of the player base even more.

2-5%, if it were a real number, is insignificant. i'd rather not have the game try to appeal to 2-5% of it's population. They do not matter.

Kiralyn2000

OP writes their post as if ESO just added crates, rather than "been around for two years now".


Oh, and DLC & Microtransactions also came about because game companies needed some way to increase the price of games without people yelling about "OMG, $80?!?!?" and because of used console games. Getting no cut of every disc that Gamestop sold for $55 two weeks after release, they added DLC so that even if someone got the used game, they still might give something to the devs. And this started before f2p mobile games.


But yeah, lets hear it for arcade games, the original "nickel and dime". Little kids running to Mom to ask for an advance on next week's allowance, for "just one more game". Mobile games using pvp to convince people to "p2w" to beat the other guy who just kicked their face in? Sounds like Street Fighter. Everyone line up to put their quarter on the screen, for their chance to take down The Champ.
(and let's not forget Skeeball & other "collect a million tickets to trade for a 50-cent stuffed animal" games; and the boardwalk & carnival games that challenged you to knock down all the <rigged> milk bottles/toss the ring on the bottle neck/etc.)

Yep, this is all new. Never happened before.


And a govt committee, comprised of people chosen by seniority (rather than by any knowledge of the issues) will definitely not do something dumb in order to make a good press release for the "think of the children!" crowd.