Elder Scrolls Online is slowly turning into a game that exploits gamers with a gambling addiction
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weedgenius✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »It really is sad, for they have no shame.
If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.
They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.
Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.
It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.
With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."
Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.
I understand it all too well, but there's no evidence of e.g. crate buyers being for the most part addicts or other victims of corporate greed, and while some may well be if everyone else stopped buying the crates they wouldn't remain viable.
"Evidence" is also something that a lot of people don't understand the definition of when railing against loot boxes.
@Tandor You well know that there is no way for someone to get this "evidence" you require. It's a bit pedantic to come to a thread about an issue just to argue that the issue doesn't exist since you haven't seen evidence. How do you suppose OP (or anyone) is to get such evidence? Poll forum users? But that's not scientific and addicts won't/can't self-report... Ask ZOS for the identity of crate buyers and comb local arrest records for crossover? Good luck. Like, really, what do you want? Peer-reviewed academic publishing might have some conclusions about loot boxes and gambling generally but even then people like you will say "But that's not evidence that this happens in ESO." etc.
Anecdotally (which -- obviously -- is the best we can do), there is plenty of "evidence" on forums where people express guilt, regret, etc. after feeling compelled to buy insane amounts of crown crates or outright admit they're addicted. I won't link bc I don't want to call the user out but just last week in the Crown Store subforum someone said they "couldn't believe" they bought $180 worth of crowns to get crates for gems for the mount. They, quite literally, said "It's more addicting than the casino."PS4 NA
Better Homes & Gardens7 -
I defenitely see a problem with this, but for those people who have other people in the house, put a lock on purchasing items if possible. I know it is availible for console, and i'm sure PC has the technology to do so.
For people who live alone, it will plague them forever1 -
weedgenius✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Tandor Sorry to double post but I went ahead and did a quick Google Scholar search. Here's two studies I found that were published this year in peer-reviewed journals. I think we will see a lot more like this in academic lit next year.- Video game loot boxes are linked to problem gambling: Results of a large-scale survey (published in PLoS ONE)
- eSports, skins and loot boxes: Participants, practices and problematic behaviour associated with emergent forms of gambling (published in New Media & Society)
PS4 NA
Better Homes & Gardens7 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭weedgenius wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »It really is sad, for they have no shame.
If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.
They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.
Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.
It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.
With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."
Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.
I understand it all too well, but there's no evidence of e.g. crate buyers being for the most part addicts or other victims of corporate greed, and while some may well be if everyone else stopped buying the crates they wouldn't remain viable.
"Evidence" is also something that a lot of people don't understand the definition of when railing against loot boxes.
@Tandor You well know that there is no way for someone to get this "evidence" you require. It's a bit pedantic to come to a thread about an issue just to argue that the issue doesn't exist since you haven't seen evidence. How do you suppose OP (or anyone) is to get such evidence? Poll forum users? But that's not scientific and addicts won't/can't self-report... Ask ZOS for the identity of crate buyers and comb local arrest records for crossover? Good luck. Like, really, what do you want? Peer-reviewed academic publishing might have some conclusions about loot boxes and gambling generally but even then people like you will say "But that's not evidence that this happens in ESO." etc.
Anecdotally (which -- obviously -- is the best we can do), there is plenty of "evidence" on forums where people express guilt, regret, etc. after feeling compelled to buy insane amounts of crown crates or outright admit they're addicted. I won't link bc I don't want to call the user out but just last week in the Crown Store subforum someone said they "couldn't believe" they bought $180 worth of crowns to get crates for gems for the mount. They, quite literally, said "It's more addicting than the casino."
I agree, but your argument also works the other way - there is indeed no way for someone to get the evidence to support the claims that they are making about the abuse of players by greedy developers, yet they still make those claims and criticise those who question them even tho' their claims are wholly unsubstantiated other than, as you say, from a relative handful of anecdotal cases on the forum. I don't doubt that there are some problem cases, but we shouldn't overstate them and we should heed the advice of those like @mayasunrising above as to where the responsibility for treating such cases lies.2 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They will go on till mmos are dead. You cant do such things with single player games where you always have a lot of competitors. But mmos are basically a market where publishers can do what they want. And they dont care if you are happy, they only care for your cash.
The FTC is already looking into the loot boxes, they can shut down the companies if they decide to shut down loot boxes and the companies don't do what they say i thoughtEdited by Cpt_Teemo on December 13, 2018 5:59PM1 -
reoskit✭✭✭✭✭
✭mayasunrising wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »It really is sad, for they have no shame.
If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.
They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.
Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.
It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.
With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."
Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.
If you don't like crates, don't buy them. If you think ZOS asks too much for luxury items, DLC, and expansions, don't buy those things. If you think ZOS are a bunch of thieving crooks and hate them that badly, don't sub - or even better don't support them by continuing to play the game. No one forced you to buy the base game in the first place. Do take some responsibility for yourself.
Hm. Since you replied directly to me, my defensive (though not addictive) personality feels compelled to reply and address your points, even though I brought up *none* of these things.
When I bought my base game in beta, there was no cash shop. I have been subbed, happily, since then. I support this game with my sub and occasional crown purchases. I rarely buy crown crates because I think the odds of getting good stuff out of them are abysmal. So, thank you for your feigned concern, but I am quite responsible for myself.1 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭weedgenius wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »It really is sad, for they have no shame.
If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.
They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.
Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.
It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.
With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."
Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.
I understand it all too well, but there's no evidence of e.g. crate buyers being for the most part addicts or other victims of corporate greed, and while some may well be if everyone else stopped buying the crates they wouldn't remain viable.
"Evidence" is also something that a lot of people don't understand the definition of when railing against loot boxes.
@Tandor You well know that there is no way for someone to get this "evidence" you require. It's a bit pedantic to come to a thread about an issue just to argue that the issue doesn't exist since you haven't seen evidence. How do you suppose OP (or anyone) is to get such evidence? Poll forum users? But that's not scientific and addicts won't/can't self-report... Ask ZOS for the identity of crate buyers and comb local arrest records for crossover? Good luck. Like, really, what do you want? Peer-reviewed academic publishing might have some conclusions about loot boxes and gambling generally but even then people like you will say "But that's not evidence that this happens in ESO." etc.
Anecdotally (which -- obviously -- is the best we can do), there is plenty of "evidence" on forums where people express guilt, regret, etc. after feeling compelled to buy insane amounts of crown crates or outright admit they're addicted. I won't link bc I don't want to call the user out but just last week in the Crown Store subforum someone said they "couldn't believe" they bought $180 worth of crowns to get crates for gems for the mount. They, quite literally, said "It's more addicting than the casino."
I agree, but your argument also works the other way - there is indeed no way for someone to get the evidence to support the claims that they are making about the abuse of players by greedy developers, yet they still make those claims and criticise those who question them even tho' their claims are wholly unsubstantiated other than, as you say, from a relative handful of anecdotal cases on the forum. I don't doubt that there are some problem cases, but we shouldn't overstate them and we should heed the advice of those like @mayasunrising above as to where the responsibility for treating such cases lies.
Those claims are anything but unsubstantiated. That you choose to ignore the rather clear cut predatory behavior does not make it a “false claim”. That user has also posted peer-reviewed papers on this subject that do plenty to address your supposed belief that there’s no evidence for game companies using gambling mechanics to prey on consumers.6 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Chicken Fights? Dog Fights?
Um, no (or not legal ones)
They're illegal in the UK, thank God.
...and if they weren't, I'd be a lot more worried about the barbarity and complete lack of animal welfare involved, than I would about some psychopath and his dog fight gambling addiction.
Boxes in games are different, however.
The gambler in a game like this is only hurting himself (or herself), so that would be my prime concern
Gambling can and does ruin lives.
To be honest, I don't think it makes much difference if an adult got addicted to gambling in a game, or has his pre-existing gambling addiction exploited by one.
Both are damaging.
It's not like seeking out a real life casino - you're just playing a (non-gambling centred) game and have gambling shoved in your face.
If you are prone to addiction, that is potentially dangerous.
Not only that, but kids are getting addicted to gambling, via gambling like this in games.
OK, people are supposed to be 18+ to play ESO, but we all know many aren't.
Edited by Tigerseye on December 13, 2018 6:26PM2 -
mayasunrising✭✭✭✭✭mayasunrising wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »It really is sad, for they have no shame.
If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.
They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.
Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.
It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.
With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."
Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.
If you don't like crates, don't buy them. If you think ZOS asks too much for luxury items, DLC, and expansions, don't buy those things. If you think ZOS are a bunch of thieving crooks and hate them that badly, don't sub - or even better don't support them by continuing to play the game. No one forced you to buy the base game in the first place. Do take some responsibility for yourself.
Hm. Since you replied directly to me, my defensive (though not addictive) personality feels compelled to reply and address your points, even though I brought up *none* of these things.
When I bought my base game in beta, there was no cash shop. I have been subbed, happily, since then. I support this game with my sub and occasional crown purchases. I rarely buy crown crates because I think the odds of getting good stuff out of them are abysmal. So, thank you for your feigned concern, but I am quite responsible for myself.
It wasn't my intent to target, i was just merely responding the entirety of the thread at that point.
"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ♥ Anaïs Nin
“There’s a difference between wanting to be looked at and wanting to be seen." ♥ Amanda Palmer
“A game is an opportunity to focus our energy, with relentless optimism, at something we’re good at (or getting better at) and enjoy. In other words, gameplay is the direct emotional opposite of depression.” ♥ Jane McGonigal
“They'll tell you you're too loud, that you need to wait your turn and ask the right people for permission. Do it anyway." ♥ Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez0 -
WhyMustItBe✭✭✭✭✭
✭The entirety of every game like this is based on gambling. Every single item that is opened with a chance of a gold item is a slot machine. Why are these people ok with this situation and not suffering from sleep deprivation and getting fired from their job because they have to find the golden cheese?
Because RNG for in-game gold and loot drops isn't gambling with REAL MONEY.
The cash shop totally is.
There is a BIG difference.2 -
reoskit✭✭✭✭✭
✭mayasunrising wrote: »mayasunrising wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »It really is sad, for they have no shame.
If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.
They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.
Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.
It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.
With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."
Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.
If you don't like crates, don't buy them. If you think ZOS asks too much for luxury items, DLC, and expansions, don't buy those things. If you think ZOS are a bunch of thieving crooks and hate them that badly, don't sub - or even better don't support them by continuing to play the game. No one forced you to buy the base game in the first place. Do take some responsibility for yourself.
Hm. Since you replied directly to me, my defensive (though not addictive) personality feels compelled to reply and address your points, even though I brought up *none* of these things.
When I bought my base game in beta, there was no cash shop. I have been subbed, happily, since then. I support this game with my sub and occasional crown purchases. I rarely buy crown crates because I think the odds of getting good stuff out of them are abysmal. So, thank you for your feigned concern, but I am quite responsible for myself.
It wasn't my intent to target, i was just merely responding the entirety of the thread at that point.
Cheers. Thank you for the followup.0 -
mayasunrising✭✭✭✭✭OK, people are supposed to be 18+ to play ESO, but we all know many aren't.
This. A parent that purchases and allows their minor child to play a game rated for mature humans - or worse, isn't involved enough with their child to the point where the child goes out, buys, and installs the game without their knowledge - are the responsibly party afaic.
Gambling is a thing that the law (in the US) states only adults are allowed to do. If a game has components that could be construed as gambling it should be slapped with a rating geared towards humans that are of an appropriate age to do that. If the ESRB fails to do so, or the gaming company does not comply then yes, I could see that it's the fault of those organizations.
However, this is not the case with ESO. (The game is rated "M: for Mature Audiences) and ZOS labeled the game accordingly (even though they initially disagreed with the rating) thus saying to parents, "Adulty things be here. You childreny-type hoomans shouldn't be experiencing/seeing this stuff!"
Minors should not be playing this game (OMG how much chiller zone chat in Cyro would be! haha). If children became addicted to gambling while playing ESO...my question would not be, "Are loot boxes gambling?" but, "Where were their parents?
Edited by mayasunrising on December 13, 2018 6:47PM"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ♥ Anaïs Nin
“There’s a difference between wanting to be looked at and wanting to be seen." ♥ Amanda Palmer
“A game is an opportunity to focus our energy, with relentless optimism, at something we’re good at (or getting better at) and enjoy. In other words, gameplay is the direct emotional opposite of depression.” ♥ Jane McGonigal
“They'll tell you you're too loud, that you need to wait your turn and ask the right people for permission. Do it anyway." ♥ Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez3 -
mayasunrising✭✭✭✭✭mayasunrising wrote: »Edited by mayasunrising on December 13, 2018 6:47PM"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ♥ Anaïs Nin
“There’s a difference between wanting to be looked at and wanting to be seen." ♥ Amanda Palmer
“A game is an opportunity to focus our energy, with relentless optimism, at something we’re good at (or getting better at) and enjoy. In other words, gameplay is the direct emotional opposite of depression.” ♥ Jane McGonigal
“They'll tell you you're too loud, that you need to wait your turn and ask the right people for permission. Do it anyway." ♥ Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Keep in mind: If you've ever bought a crate, you're enabling this. While we're pointing fingers, let's not forget the mirror. (And yes, I've bought a couple, so I do include myself).
You're not gonna shame ZOS into getting rid of Crown Crates. People who own a capacity for shame (or any amount of ethics whatsoever) would never have introduced gamble boxes in the first place. You can't guilt people with no good in their souls. All you can really do is never, ever, ever reward them for something you should be punishing them for. Purchase no crates. None. Never. Period."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle4 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭slowly???
welcome to the present and the future...actually - i have a strong feeling that the commercialization of gaming will only escalate...
you can blame it all on all those folks back in the day buying zelda game guides...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mayasunrising wrote: »OK, people are supposed to be 18+ to play ESO, but we all know many aren't.
This. A parent that purchases and allows their minor child to play a game rated for mature humans - or worse, isn't involved enough with their child to the point where the child goes out, buys, and installs the game without their knowledge - are the responsibly party afaic.
Gambling is a thing that the law (in the US) states only adults are allowed to do. If a game has components that could be construed as gambling it should be slapped with a rating geared towards humans that are of an appropriate age to do that. If the ESRB fails to do so, or the gaming company does not comply then yes, I could see that it's the fault of those organizations.
However, this is not the case with ESO. (The game is rated "M: for Mature Audiences) and ZOS labeled the game accordingly (even though they initially disagreed with the rating) thus saying to parents, "Adulty things be here. You childreny-type hoomans shouldn't be experiencing/seeing this stuff!"
Minors should not be playing this game (OMG how much chiller zone chat in Cyro would be! haha), if they are that is NOT ZOS' fault. If children got addicted to gambling while playing ESO...my question is not "are loot boxes gambling?" it is "Where were their parents?
Well, I'm not saying it's, directly, Zos/Zenimax's fault if children play the game when they shouldn't, exactly.
However, I guess I am saying that if it is an inevitability that children will be drawn to play games like this, even if they shouldn't, perhaps that means that (at the very least) games that appeal to children shouldn't have gambling elements in them?
I don't mean they shouldn't ever have cash store items.
Although, I do think they are double dipping here, somewhat, in the case of people who buy ESO+.
Just that the means (especially, the only means) of getting certain items shouldn't be gambling loot boxes.
Not only that, but there are videos of (what sound like) grown men, literally, crying on Youtube as they open countless crates, which they clearly state they couldn't afford.
Even if some people don't seem to care very much about these grown men, surely they should at least spare a thought for their significant other and any kids they may have?
These are not rich people and yet, they are spending hundreds per month (hundreds they, specifically, say they can't afford) trying to get rare mounts.
...and OK, that may not be Zos/Zenimax's fault, exactly, but it is within their power to decide if this is the kind of company they want to be and it is also, presumably, something for the politicians/regulators to consider.
I believe boxes like this have been banned in some countries and are under consideration/in the process of being banned, in others, anyway?
So, it may just be a matter of time...0 -
Kuwhar✭✭✭✭I have a hard time criticizing a company for doing something that I see literally everyday of my life. Drive past a gas station? You'll see lottery signs; run by the state government no less.
I don't like it but i can't fault a company for doing it no matter how much i believe it takes away from the experience.
If you started a business and you looked to the right and there was $10 million, and to the left there was $100 million, which way are you going to go?3 -
Bruccius✭✭✭✭✭PeterUnlustig wrote: »As the title says, its getting more and more clear, that zenimax wanna hop on the "abusing people with gambling issue" train. Like many other games on the market, whos names shall not be said here, they are abusing those 2-5% player base who actually buy the hard to get, expensive to get store items. And im not talking about those people who get 15 crates every season and see if they are lucky. No there are people that spend hundrets and hundrets of dollar/euro/dogecoin to get all the mounts outfits houses etc. Those people can`t stop that behaviour even when they are deeply in debt and living on welfare.
I came to this game, because it did not have those exploiting mechanics. And now its showing its ugly face. The only thing we can do is wait for other countrys to join belgium in declaring loot boxes illegal ( https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 ) or leave this game which will result in Zenimax trying to milk the rest of the player base even more.
Why are you blaming a game for this exactly?
The problem is with the gambler, not the company. Or are you going to demand casino's be shut down as well?
PS: I don't think the rest of the world should implement something just because Belgium did it.Edited by Bruccius on December 13, 2018 7:15PM0 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Edited by geonsocal on December 13, 2018 7:16PMPVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place1 -
NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I remember a thread from a person saying they were disappointed they had to quit the game because of the triggers associated with crates and their addiction. This statement reminded me of that:mayasunrising wrote: »As someone who has an addictive personality (gaming, smoking, OCD/impulse control issues) I do understand addiction. I have been in therapy to help me with those and other mental health issues. I don't feel, and a wide majority of experts would agree, that the onus of managing a person's mental health issues does not lie with companies providing services. It lies with the individual - or those who support them if they are unable to seek help on their own.
There have been people asking to have it disabled by ZOS, or be able to prevent purchases in other ways. Some think the change will happen without them lifting a finger to contribute, because they think it should.
Best solutions I can offer to those who want an end to loot crates:
1) Self control is the most effective - if you need support please seek it.
2) Get in your lawmaker's face - if you really care, you'll take action instead of just complaining.
3) Request a corporation to change a lucrative profit tactic for ethical reasons - good luck with that.
It's naive to believe these forums are the platform for getting them to change, and worse to believe a corporation will voluntarily make an ethical decision over a profitable one. It's usually death, injury, bad PR (or all three) to cause the stakes to be high enough to forgo profits.
TLDR: If you want crates to go away, you need to take action. Complaining will not defeat them.
Fear is the Mindkiller1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭weedgenius wrote: »Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »ChrisToTheCanvas wrote: »It really is sad, for they have no shame.
If they offered every cosmetic they have created permanently in their digital store at fair prices, they would make more than enough money to keep the lights on and fund the development of new content.
They aren't content with making enough, they want to make more than enough. Greed ruins everything.
Not that I necessarily like loot boxes but you can't make a claim like that without objective data which we will never see.
It's in the hands of the players, if you don't want to buy stuff then don't.
With all due respect, I don't think you guys understand the definition of "addiction."
Edit - I do mean the very real, clinical definition.
I understand it all too well, but there's no evidence of e.g. crate buyers being for the most part addicts or other victims of corporate greed, and while some may well be if everyone else stopped buying the crates they wouldn't remain viable.
"Evidence" is also something that a lot of people don't understand the definition of when railing against loot boxes.
@Tandor You well know that there is no way for someone to get this "evidence" you require. It's a bit pedantic to come to a thread about an issue just to argue that the issue doesn't exist since you haven't seen evidence. How do you suppose OP (or anyone) is to get such evidence? Poll forum users? But that's not scientific and addicts won't/can't self-report... Ask ZOS for the identity of crate buyers and comb local arrest records for crossover? Good luck. Like, really, what do you want? Peer-reviewed academic publishing might have some conclusions about loot boxes and gambling generally but even then people like you will say "But that's not evidence that this happens in ESO." etc.
Anecdotally (which -- obviously -- is the best we can do), there is plenty of "evidence" on forums where people express guilt, regret, etc. after feeling compelled to buy insane amounts of crown crates or outright admit they're addicted. I won't link bc I don't want to call the user out but just last week in the Crown Store subforum someone said they "couldn't believe" they bought $180 worth of crowns to get crates for gems for the mount. They, quite literally, said "It's more addicting than the casino."
I agree, but your argument also works the other way - there is indeed no way for someone to get the evidence to support the claims that they are making about the abuse of players by greedy developers, yet they still make those claims and criticise those who question them even tho' their claims are wholly unsubstantiated other than, as you say, from a relative handful of anecdotal cases on the forum. I don't doubt that there are some problem cases, but we shouldn't overstate them and we should heed the advice of those like @mayasunrising above as to where the responsibility for treating such cases lies.
Those claims are anything but unsubstantiated. That you choose to ignore the rather clear cut predatory behavior does not make it a “false claim”. That user has also posted peer-reviewed papers on this subject that do plenty to address your supposed belief that there’s no evidence for game companies using gambling mechanics to prey on consumers.
I'm concerned solely with the crown crates in this game, not with other predatory and P2W developers. The reason for that (apart from forum rules) is that the topic is expressed to be about how ESO is moving towards those other standards, and I see no evidence of that.Edited by Tandor on December 13, 2018 7:28PM0 -
Genomic✭✭✭✭✭Thank you. I completely agree. Gambling boxes are utterly disgraceful. Predatory and unethical. I was so disappointed with ZOS when they implemented them. For the people saying "just don't buy them" - way to entirely miss the point that OP clearly made regarding addiction and psychological manipulation.
2 -
WhyMustItBe✭✭✭✭✭
✭MasterSpatula wrote: »You're not gonna shame ZOS into getting rid of Crown Crates. People who own a capacity for shame (or any amount of ethics whatsoever) would never have introduced gamble boxes in the first place. You can't guilt people with no good in their souls. All you can really do is never, ever, ever reward them for something you should be punishing them for. Purchase no crates. None. Never. Period.
Agree with this, sad but true.
HOWEVER, I would add that it IS possible to shame them into changing not so much by making them feel guilty, but by drawing unwanted public attention to their practices, so that legal and ethical regulators FINALLY catch up to this scandalous corruption and root it out of our modern digital markets like the toxic filth that it is. Props to Belgium for carrying the torch on that one.
That which grows in shadow but withers in the light does not belong on the vine.
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Davor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Games publishers are going to push these kinds of things until they can't get away with it because right now they can and it makes them A LOT of money.
I am sorry here, I don't agree. While I don't know if you agree or not, this statement here to me sounds like an excuse. If I am wrong I will apologize. Thing is the way I read it, it's like "everyone else does it, so why can't they do it". It's no excuse.
After all Bethesda was making Open World Single Player games while "everyone" else was making online multiplayer games. So if the "everyone else does it" we would never have The Elder Scrolls and would never have ESO. So it's pretty sad that Zenimax is doing the "everyone else is doing it" while using a game we hold to our hearts that "we don't do what everyone else does" of TES.
Again, I do apologize if I have read this statement out of context and for that I am sorry if I did.
As for change, we are not blaming the Zenimax team or ZOS. We are blaming Zenimax.(Just like the name Bethesda, Zenimax uses the same name for different parts of their business. So just like Bethesda when they publish other developers, they don't say Bethesda Publishing, they just say Bethesda. So same for Zenimax. You have ZOS and then Zenimax ownership company what ever they are called. So people just say Zenimax.) The owners. The people in charge. We are voicing our opinions/concerns on their forums. It shows us they don't care or respect our opinions on the matter by staying silent.Edited by Davor on December 13, 2018 7:37PMNot my quote but I love this saying
"I would pay It for support. But since they choosed we are just numbers and not customers, i dont mind if game and zos goes to oblivion"0 -
Genomic✭✭✭✭✭The people defending gambling crates amaze me. It's almost like gamers are asking to be treated like garbage.
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jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mayasunrising wrote: »OK, people are supposed to be 18+ to play ESO, but we all know many aren't.
This. A parent that purchases and allows their minor child to play a game rated for mature humans - or worse, isn't involved enough with their child to the point where the child goes out, buys, and installs the game without their knowledge - are the responsibly party afaic.
Gambling is a thing that the law (in the US) states only adults are allowed to do. If a game has components that could be construed as gambling it should be slapped with a rating geared towards humans that are of an appropriate age to do that. If the ESRB fails to do so, or the gaming company does not comply then yes, I could see that it's the fault of those organizations.
However, this is not the case with ESO. (The game is rated "M: for Mature Audiences) and ZOS labeled the game accordingly (even though they initially disagreed with the rating) thus saying to parents, "Adulty things be here. You childreny-type hoomans shouldn't be experiencing/seeing this stuff!"
Minors should not be playing this game (OMG how much chiller zone chat in Cyro would be! haha), if they are that is NOT ZOS' fault. If children got addicted to gambling while playing ESO...my question is not "are loot boxes gambling?" it is "Where were their parents?
Well, I'm not saying it's, directly, Zos/Zenimax's fault if children play the game when they shouldn't, exactly.
However, I guess I am saying that if it is an inevitability that children will be drawn to play games like this, even if they shouldn't, perhaps that means that (at the very least) games that appeal to children shouldn't have gambling elements in them?
I don't mean they shouldn't ever have cash store items.
Although, I do think they are double dipping here, somewhat, in the case of people who buy ESO+.
Just that the means (especially, the only means) of getting certain items shouldn't be gambling loot boxes.
Not only that, but there are videos of (what sound like) grown men, literally, crying on Youtube as they open countless crates, which they clearly state they couldn't afford.
Even if some people don't seem to care very much about these grown men, surely they should at least spare a thought for their significant other and any kids they may have?
These are not rich people and yet, they are spending hundreds per month (hundreds they, specifically, say they can't afford) trying to get rare mounts.
...and OK, that may not be Zos/Zenimax's fault, exactly, but it is within their power to decide if this is the kind of company they want to be and it is also, presumably, something for the politicians/regulators to consider.
I believe boxes like this have been banned in some countries and are under consideration/in the process of being banned, in others, anyway?
So, it may just be a matter of time...
"appeal to children" is such a non-sense term though. Elements of strip clubs certainly appeal to 13 year olds. Guess we should get rid of those elements because sometimes children find their way in. Most things appeal to children in some way.
People need to stop hiding behind children while crusading against something they don't like.
And as far as grown men wasting their money away. No, I really don't care nor do I feel sorry for the family that sticks it out with them. Some people are just lost causes. And if you are crying because you spent all of your money on worthless digital items, this game (or any other game) isn't the reason you are a failure human and shouldn't be held responsible for your inability to utilize self control..
Edited by jaws343 on December 13, 2018 7:45PM1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The people defending gambling crates amaze me. It's almost like gamers are asking to be treated like garbage.
People who use language like "gambling crates" sound like prohibitionists. It is more like gamers are asking to be treated like the adults we are; who understand that we can make a choice on how to spend our money. You know like adults and not a bunch of whiny prohibitionists who just want anything they don't like or don't want to do banned, even if it has absolutely zero impact on their lives. Because Crown Crates have zero impact on you if you do not buy them, period.3 -
Genomic✭✭✭✭✭The people defending gambling crates amaze me. It's almost like gamers are asking to be treated like garbage.
People who use language like "gambling crates" sound like prohibitionists. It is more like gamers are asking to be treated like the adults we are; who understand that we can make a choice on how to spend our money. You know like adults and not a bunch of whiny prohibitionists who just want anything they don't like or don't want to do banned, even if it has absolutely zero impact on their lives. Because Crown Crates have zero impact on you if you do not buy them, period.
They are gambling crates. Period. Calling them anything else is is lying to yourselves or your customers. Your following arguments are childish nonsense too.7 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If the prices were lowered, it wouldn't be that bad of a deal. Crown Store prices are usually high and its frustrating when you get gems, poisons and other trash you can extract 1 gem from.1 -
karekiz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Non account wide skyshard are slowly turning this game into an addictive grind.
GRIND = doing things over and over so greedy companies can turn profits. What makes leveling your alt 10X longer to get to the *ACTUAL* game? Skyshards.
I 100% support the OP in account wide skyshards so people aren't wasting 8-12 hours a day trying to play catch up on their 5th toon that ZOS has pushed with these xp scrolls and XP bonus days. People shouldn't be forced to stare at the screen for that long so they have a playable character for the 12th time.Edited by karekiz on December 13, 2018 7:55PM0