"Shields feel strong in PvE"

If a class representative said that, I am glad they have changed class representatives.

I had to explain it VERY well to my raid leaders why mag characters survivability suddenly became so BAD.

ZOS you have to make up your mind about his.

- EITHER mag classes HAVE to do less DPS because they are more survivable thanks to shields

- OR mag classes HAVE to do almost same DPS as stam classes because they die close to as often.


As of now we are in a double whammy: easily 10+k less DPS than the top stam class but ALSO die 3 times easier than before.

Cinbri wrote: »

That showing again problem about how game balance cant handle different rules of CP/non-CP and should overhauled to work on same basic mechanics.

Preaching to the choir here.

Relative to U20 changes - the Overload and Defensive Rune changes are what made me retire my 3+ years old magsorc in PvP, as my whole build/playstyle was heavily relying on both of these. Hoping to see some things changed there in U21, otherwise the magsorc will remain shelved indefinitely. Was so close to making it to GO

Minno wrote: »

Valykc wrote: »

We need a Major and Minor Snare debuff, and maybe change Bastion to reduce snares. That would bring a smile to my face

we have major/minor snare. Large overrides smallest.

At most you will be hit with a 70%, which is subtractive from your speed (which is mostly additive with some multiplied).
For example, ironblood gives you a 50% snare. When it is active, anything below 50% just doesnt apply to you but you used to be able to stack swift to "lower" this punishment (old purple swift 3x was 24%, so the 50% became a 26% snare without sprint).

Current snare system is fine, lack of speed/escape options isn't.

edit:
another way to ignore snares, gap closers or streak/NB shade all ignore snares.

@Minno I wasn’t aware of this, thanks for the insight

Speed nerfs are more than questionable, and who still uses speed pots ? Low uptime on speed means they are usless, it doesn't do anything other than help escape and the group chasing you has rapids to counter that.

I hate the snare/slow path of pvp right now. I play a damn stamsorc with orc and steed mundus and even mag chars can outrun me, simply because speed pots was the only decent way to get major expedition, now it's gone and the groups can chase me down with rapids so easily. So playing the class that is meant to be fast is just annoying me so much. I have no major expedition and can't hardly move anyway since I'm snared all the time. Snares are basically free, are way too strong and most of the time go through immunity.

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

GoopCooper69 wrote: »

No mention of how overpowered StamWardens are in pvp? Literally 50% of players in cyrodiil are stam wardens now...

that's mostly due to them running cheese builds. I've been running my stamwarden in pvp for over a year now and he's never been overpowered. of course I run 2h and s&b with hundings and bone pirate on a nord (i just like brawling until I die). no spin to win for me.

No thats mostly due to them using stam warden correctly. And when used correctly a group of wardens backed by a healer is unstoppable.

For what it’s worth, the grace passive feels pretty underwhelming. If I did PvE I would feel like there’s no point.

Given that I really only pvp, I very rarely get anything out of this. Either I’m dealing with a slightly smaller snare or I’m using mistform to relocate and snares don’t matter. Whichever way you slice it, I still have better mobility than medium armor and worse than heavy/FM users.

I would like to see some parity with other magicka/stamina sets - stuff like a magicka version of fury. It’s not a good thing for balance, but I think we’d at least get a glimpse of parity among the quality of heavy armor sets for magicka vs stamina. Right now, barring some gearings that should be kept quiet, heavy armor feels like a severe damage loss for magicka and there is no similar sacrifice for stamina.

Liam12548 wrote: »

Holy PvP disappointment. This set of notes has completely confirmed my fears that we were being poorly represented by our class reps.

Damage shields feel stronger than previous if you adapt your build properly. Min maxing your capacity and wearing bloodspawn or resistances as well as using an appropriate amount of crit resist (something that mag builds got to forgo previously while stam still needed 7 impen) elsewhere should provide you with wards that feel stronger than last patch. The only builds that may feel their wards are weaker than previous are the 55k+ max mag setups that ran no resists or crit resist and haven't adapted their setups.

No one uses speed pots. 14.7 seconds is not worth using over a full duration resource buff and burst resource restore. Most stam builds that ran those previously are now using tri pots, stam health immovs, or stam crit immovs. Movement speed is now being accessed mainly through the steed and bow, or quick cloak for heavy builds. In general, stam mobility is trashed in open world. I'm not really sure where the "many people still use speed pots" info game from, but if it is data taken directly from potion usage statistics available to zenimax, I'm 100% sure this is just people using their leftover potions. The potions should be buffed to a 25 or 30s, as major expedition is no where near as strong a buff as vitalty (which zos equated it to when making these adjustments).

Skills and passives that provide expedition should never have been touched. It is laughable that many 5-6 second expedition buffs where nerfed for no apparent reason. It was unnecessary to nerf V.O and dreugh king, as well.

The new major evasion provides less mitigation than the old evasion. The fact that for some reason it is being considered "to strong" and a "no consequence skill" are laughable. Medium armor STILL has no good snare immunity, and shuffle has to be used so frequently that in no cp you burn your stam out faster than ever trying to stay mobile. In CP it is not nearly as viable as simply switching into heavy with forward and using blade cloak for the AOE mit. The 25% aoe mitigation is strong against SOME specs (mainly stamina wardens, magplars using jabs, stamplars), but having no passive dodge still results in less mitigation overall than previously available against the vast majority of players, especially considering many stam setups chose to run both shuffle and blade cloak previously.

Still not sure why warden received buffs when it is easily the strongest class in game currently, both mag and stam. I've been playing both this patch and can confirm that each brings more to a group than any other class can. They are only lacking in duels or solo play, and this has nothing to do with the buffs, sustain, or damage available to them but more so the nature of subterranean/deep fissure.

My light armor mag specs using mist form are more mobile than my medium armor stam specs using shuffle. The new grace passive is really nice, but the fact that shuffle was not buffed to provide the "Mobility" armor weight with more mobility than the other two weights is a joke. Shuffle should be increased to a minimum of .75s per piece of medium armor worn.

Overall these notes have made me very nervous for the balancing changes coming with the next patch, as well as confirming my suspicions that many of the class reps are not actually providing accurate feedback to the real imbalances in PvP.

EDIT: The only thing I'm happy to see in here is the "major/minor" snare suggestion, which is one I've backed for a while. In addition to this, ZoS should create a ROOT/IMMOBILIZE specific immunity which is on it's own cooldown, or is tied to CC immunity but also encompassed by snare immunity. The root meta is out of control right now.

One of the things I think the rep program can do a better job at is altering the format in which feedback is communicated. The way it is currently done, it gives the very incorrect impression that the Devs and the Reps are this monolithic bloc that speak with one voice.

Nothing can be further from the truth.

The reality is that the reps disagree with each other, the Devs disagree with each other, and the reps often butt heads with the Devs over very contentious issues. What is being offered here is a sort of watered down middle ground version with a lot of the arguments not included (these are after all, two hour affairs that often run over).I have seen one argument between a dev and a rep last an entire morning in a discord that easily exceeded over 100 responses between the two. We don't speak with one voice.

Also our priorities are not necessarily the same either. What's most important to me is the awful in-combat bug that has made me log out and play another game multiple times since update 20. But I PvP. People who do not spend nearly as much time in Cyrodiil are going to feel other things ought to be prioritized..

I was not able to attend the meeting because I teach a class on Thursday afternoon, but I still compliled my own observations on player feedback and submitted it to ZOS. And it demonstrates that everyone in that meeting has different opinions, and summing up two hours of arguing is very hard. Some relevant excepts from my feedback pertaining to the issues that you raised:

"I disagree about the assessment about Speed potions. People have told me they have stopped using the Speed component of potions because it is too short, nowhere near the same neighborhood of power as major vitality or stealth detection. My guild has all but stopped using them."

"Regarding the notes from the meeting, I think the PvP dynamic is more complicated than shields falling faster. Sorcerers who have adapted are noticeably more robust." [Which also has negative effects on their offensive potential, but that's another matter].

"There are a lot of complaints regarding unnecessary collateral damage [due to speed changes]. This is a “pain point,” because the of manner in which the changes were made: midway through the PTS, rammed down without any adjustments, using a hammer rather than a chisel, applied indiscriminately without identifying the underlying problem."

"Snares and speed: You ever think there wouldn’t be something more complained about in Cyrodiil than lag and “ball groups”? That’s perhaps where we are."

The fact of the matter is that intelligent people are often going to disagree precisely because they are intelligent and tend to look at things deeper and from different perspectives. It is not possible to communicate who said what and all the internal arguments that we have. If people feel strongly about an issue that they don't feel is getting the proper amount of attention, then I would suggest to make a constructive and informative post explaining why said issue ought to have a higher priority, because odds are multiple Reps - and even some devs - also feel the same way but are currently in the minority opinion. I for one am grateful you went into specific detail in your post instead of taking the easy way out with some salty one-liner. It's the best way to ensure those issues get a higher priority.

I do agree with multiple posters here that we need to keep a better and more accessible record for the stuff we have gone over. That is absolutely a fair critique. There is no easy way say a templar could quickly find out exactly what about that class has been discussed, changed, or even what's the vision for the class in the future since the program began last May. That was also a suggestion I made in my feedback.

Captain_Slaymore wrote: »

Soo, we will just idly stand by with no counter skills to make wardens happy. Here's an idea, just nerf everything, just go ahead and do it once for all classes. you know, lets not have skills at all, just you a rock, a dagger, bow or whatever. Lets rely on the 3 stats. Then, well, no need for skill complimenting gear, get rid of it. Especially the proc sets. While we are at it, i think the best thing that Zenimax and Bethedsa could do at this point after this last patch and the Fallout 76 fiasco, is just Nerf your dev team. Just gonna power level up to max CP, then drop my plus lol.

I like you

Kanar wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno , all this tinkering with small balance changes is having diminishing returns. Yeah balance is important but at a certain point it becomes a fools quest because absolute balance is impossible (unless you just make everything the same).

From what I see players are suffering more from performance and bugs than balance issues, and the product (and users) would benefit much more from a release focusing on those issues instead of balance. That, in my opinion, should be the message passed to the development and product management teams.

While development team is focused on those changes the product management team and game designers can be focused on creating a long term vision for the game, which seems to be lacking.

Very well said. At this point I would much much rather have something like a guild trader search function than a couple small changes to my class skills.

ccfeeling wrote: »

We changed Evasion to AoE damage reduction from dodge chance. Feedback on this for both PvP and PvE?

PvE – not a lot changed

ROFL , you guys destroyed most of NB tanks in PVE and said no problem . What a shame !

Check the data and analyze the distribution of tank in PVE , I bet 60% or above are DK , you will rare to see non DK / Warden tank in hard contents like VMOL / VHOF / VAS+2 / VCR+2 , I have no idea how you guys made things like this ?

To be honest, NB tanks were crap before that change anyway. This just made them worse still which as sad as it maybe didn't change a lot. Which is what they wrote. NB Tanks need a ton of changes to fix the terrible state they are in.