The Reality of Battlegrounds right now

susmitds · December 2018

BGs are such a [snip] right now. Every single time I queue, it takes ages and when I finally get one, this happens:-

Team 1 - 2 DW Stamdens spamming Spin2Win, 1 tanky Magplar healer guarding one Stamden and 1 DK tank guarding the other stamden
Team 2 - 2 petsorcs both using the cheese setup with Knight Slayer, Torug's Pact infused oblivion and Shadowrend, 1 Stamsorc Werewolf with Torugs, Master Axes, Viper, Shadowrend and 1 Magden healer
My team - Me solo queue on a cloakless tanky medium NB build, one medium armor stamplar, a glass cannon stamDK archer and a NB sniper

Match starts and two of my team's snipers does nothing but sit back and spam snipes and still manage to only tickle people. Team 1 comes charging in and melts them both. Me and the stamplar try to escape but the DK tank chains us right in the center of AoE blackhole. And with the templar, using the Ritual of retribution with its huge snare radius and DK spamming roots and chains, it was downright impossible to get out of there. One of the Stamden drops Permafrost and I managed to keep us both alive with Soul Siphon and transmutation. We manage to get the Stamdens to execution range after a long drawn fight. And then, out of nowhere, comes Team 2. Every one in their team drop Caltrops over the entire area, and we are overrun by 9 pets and it gets impossible to target any one or move, even with Shuffle. All these while Team 2 sorcs spams Endless Fury and Spin2Win, while their Magden stacks snare after snare. My team wipes. The other team puts up a fight but at this point are already out of resources and wipes.
I return to try and kill the sorcs in Team 2 but I realize for the first time, how ridiculous fighting them are. The magsorcs drop Storm Atro for 4 pets each, drop caltrops, mines and lightning WoE and camp one spot together spamming just lightning/restro heavies with the occasional Endless Fury and still do ridiculous oblivion damage (thanks to Torugs and Knight Slayer). I managed to drop a Fear trap right on them and DBoSed them only to have them LOS behind their pet zoo, while the Stamsorc got two bleeds on me in that time. The magden stacked the area with snares and stamsorc went WW adding two more pets. I went full turtle with healing cloak, Vigor and Soul Siphon and somehow outhealed the onslaught of 4xbleeds+3xtorugs+2xKnight Slayer oblivion damage+11 pets+Permafrost+DBoS on my face, only to die to Implosion from Caltrops.
By that time, two of my teammates dropped groups and was replaced by a 130 CP "hybrid" warden who was clueless on how to PvP and yet another Sniper who spent his entire time running away from fights like a pro. Both teams stuck tightly to each other. Any time I got close to killing anyone on Team 1, one of the sorcs in Team 2 would steal it hiding behind their pet zoo. Occasional one of Team 2 guys got chained by Team 1 and destroyed by AoEs. Pets made it hard to target a soul and the entire arena was covered in Snares, Time Stops, Caltrops and ground AoE and all I could do was to annoy both teams by spamming Fear Traps from a range.
This pretty much continued the entire match, with me getting only 8 kills the entire match, while nobody else in my team bothering to get more than 2 kills. Team 2 won the match beating Team 1 by 60, even though Team 1 actually fought far better imo, only have their kills stolen or die themselves thanks to Implosion proccing from Ground AoEs/Endless Fury/Spin2Win.

Tl;dr: BG is nothing but cheese gameplay right now. Some people spam snares, chains, roots nullifying viable movement. Others are building solely around kill stealing and irresistible damage etc, using broken mechanics like LoSing behind pets. There is hardly any viable fun PvP left here.

[Minor edit for censor bypass.]

Vapirko · December 2018

There’s two pet sorcs running on PC/NA that both have two pets and at least one is using the deadroth monster set lol. So a 4 man team turns into an 8-10 and in the confined space of BGs you can target anything. If you catch one of them alone they jsut spam shields and hope their pets kill you. Unbelievable cheesy. Why anyone would consider that fun is beyond me.

susmitds · December 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

There’s two pet sorcs running on PC/NA that both have two pets and at least one is using the deadroth monster set lol. So a 4 man team turns into an 8-10 and in the confined space of BGs you can target anything. If you catch one of them alone they jsut spam shields and hope their pets kill you. Unbelievable cheesy. Why anyone would consider that fun is beyond me.

Pretty sure, we are talking about the same duo here.

Skoomah · December 2018

Learn to play. Get some friends. Bring a healer. Use cloak as a Nightblade.

susmitds · December 2018

Skoomah wrote: »

Learn to play. Get some friends. Bring a healer. Use cloak as a Nightblade.

Firstly I shouldn't have to be forced to group up to enjoy something that needs using Group finder. Kinda beats the whole point of it.
Healers will not really help much against teams whose entire strategy is to steal kills and use oblivion damage. I mean Soul Siphon is the strongest heal in the game, with each tick of the HoT as strong as normal burst heals. Usually makes me immortal in the middle of zergs if stacked with Vigor and Healing Cloak. Didn't help here.
Cloak is by no means absolutely necessary for NB combat. You can play Brawler instead of Rogue or Assassin as an NB as well. Also given the tons of the Snares and Ground AoEs such premades use, healing cloak is better than invisibilty.

frostz417 · December 2018

This sounds like almost every BG match.

I’d make a separate thread about this but I’ll just elaborate on the stupid cheese BG’s have.

Whenever I see a magsorc on my team or on the opposing team I instantly will know this guys about to go 20-1 with 100k damage since all he will do is spam endless fury relying on no skill garbage proc executes to get kills for him. Then hide behind their zoo for defense. Zos nerfs sorcs the wrong ways yet still let’s them keep these stupid no skill proc executes.
If zos actually had any brain cells they’d do away with dumb proc executes, and actually give them some actual damage, such as hmmmm I don’t know... a useful class spammable???? Also must mention 99% of my death recaps have endless fury or implosion trash. It’s pathetic how easy it is, make my crafter into a PvP sorc and go 20-0 every Bg match effortlessly since I can just spam endless fury and steal everyone’s kills. I don’t need damage I can just steal kills ez. Since zos is so out of touch with the community and nerf sorcs in the dumbest ways possible.

Onto my next rant, roots and snares. With nerfs of major expedition and snare removal (forward momentum) snares and roots have become the meta now. It’s obsurdly easy how you can literally be snared by just being looked at by people. (Obvious exaggeration). I tend to avoid my magic PvP classes since they have useful snare root removal/immunity, I don’t play a MagDK so wings aren’t an option. Zos has made it so you might as well just roll a stam character with dw axes run bleeds and heavy armor. Since running mag classes in Bg’s You’ll die from being snares and rooted. Now before some forum warrior goes ballistic and defends their cheese. Here’s some counter arguments.
Magden only has netch which removes only one negative effect. That’s quite self explanatory.
Magblade has no snare/root removals
Magsorc has none either
Magplar has cleanse. But since snares and roots are so easily accessible since most abilities snare you it’ll cost nothing to reapply the snare/root.
MagDK has the only way to remove all snares and grant immunity.
The other classes must gimp themselves to becoming a vampire which most people don’t even want to do, and use mist form. Let’s face it, who wants to be a vampire and get absolutely pooped on by anyone using flame damage. MagDK’s smile when they face vampires. This snare/root meta is absolutely ridiculous. I will be happy to further support that argument.

Snipe builds are pretty self explanatory lol.

frostz417 · December 2018

Oh, and don’t even get me started on the GOD AWFUL MMR system.

MaxJrFTW · December 2018

Skoomah wrote: »

Learn to play. Get some friends. Bring a healer. Use cloak as a Nightblade.

Or just separate premades from solo queue.

WoppaBoem · December 2018

Xbox EU here - BG's are ridiculous. I don't care about the cheese I usually are also on my stamden spin to win to be most effective.

But please create solo and group queues. Every match there is that team that are with 4 right from the moment you load in, they move as a united, skills and sets in sync. No fun to play against at all....

I liked BG's but now I play like 1 or 2 matches a week..... I find it sad Zenimax does not put more effort in BG's to not just have the content of BG's but also make it enjoyable. I keep wishing it will happen someday......

ChunkyCat · December 2018

Too long, definitely did not read past the first couple paragraphs.

So I’m just curious if you mentioned anything about ice wardens. Asking for a friend.

oxygen_thief · December 2018

i fought in a pug against two premades once they all were werewolves with a morph which gives you a pack of little dogs. that was a shitshow with tons of pets around but my teammates were tough and we won.

ralphylauren · December 2018

To play devils advocate isn’t this the way cheese players would do as you all said: “L2P and adapt”, when the sorc changes were being announced?

And no I don’t play sorc cheese build I run my magdk

technohic · December 2018

ralphylauren wrote: »

To play devils advocate isn’t this the way cheese players would do as you all said: “L2P and adapt”, when the sorc changes were being announced?

And no I don’t play sorc cheese build I run my magdk

Always something that is meta. Even if we dont like it. Unfortunately by the time enough people figure out to match it, it gets nerfed and new sets are relased and new group comps will take its place.

VaranisArano · December 2018

There will always be meta-following premade groups in Battlegrounds. That's in large part who BGs was designed for - the "I just wanna small scale with my friends, no zergs" crowd complaining about Cyrodiil zergs.

So you take a bunch of Cyrodiil tower farming, throw them into BGs, and are surprised when they prove adept at figuring out how to farm teams in BGs?

Meta Premade groups have been there in BGs since they launched. You can change the meta: viper, red mountain, troll king, tank/healer pairs, guard, Sloads, dawnbreaker spam, shalk spam, pet spam, whatever, but there will always be a meta and premade groups will always use that to kill you as efficiently as possible.

Skoomah · December 2018

Everyone will always bring the strongest build they can.

All classes, Stam and Magicka versions are competitive at the moment.

Premades can get a run for their money against good collection of solo players.

If you don’t run cloak, the strongest mitigation in the game, you’re a fool.

BGs have matured. People bring healers because they make a material difference between winning and losing. People have taken lessons from Cyrodiil and brought it into BGs. 4 person ball group instead of 20 person.

Solariken · December 2018

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Learn to play. Get some friends. Bring a healer. Use cloak as a Nightblade.

Or just separate premades from solo queue.

The source of all woes ^

Slack · December 2018

Have been taking a break for a while and came back a few days ago, and what I see In BGs are shitblades running rampant.

6+ stamblades in a game ist not uncommon, neither is getting stealth sniped by 3 different people, being completely unable to move because of Ice and time stop spam or several people spamming Spin 2 win even when everyone has full health.
Not to mention all the procs

susmitds · December 2018

ralphylauren wrote: »

To play devils advocate isn’t this the way cheese players would do as you all said: “L2P and adapt”, when the sorc changes were being announced?

And no I don’t play sorc cheese build I run my magdk

VaranisArano wrote: »

There will always be meta-following premade groups in Battlegrounds. That's in large part who BGs was designed for - the "I just wanna small scale with my friends, no zergs" crowd complaining about Cyrodiil zergs.

So you take a bunch of Cyrodiil tower farming, throw them into BGs, and are surprised when they prove adept at figuring out how to farm teams in BGs?

Meta Premade groups have been there in BGs since they launched. You can change the meta: viper, red mountain, troll king, tank/healer pairs, guard, Sloads, dawnbreaker spam, shalk spam, pet spam, whatever, but there will always be a meta and premade groups will always use that to kill you as efficiently as possible.

There are tons of great magsorcs in PvP right now, who created balanced builds and are performing better than ever with shields taking resistance into account. This particular build existed way before this patch and was abused by quite a few players.
It is a known fact that the ways pets work in this game mess with player targeting due to engine limitations. Very much the same way, speed builds caused targeting to bug out.
As a soloer/small scaler myself I go out of my way to make builds work the way it was never intended. (The original melee bow stamblade was a build I made in Thieves Guild patch till SRIBES made it popular using proc sets. It is so broken OP with 30K opening combos, ZOS changed bow heavy mechanic to stop such builds.)
However any PvPer would agree that Oblivion damage is as cheesy as it gets. I dont think anyone would call a stamblade with Shield Breaker+Torugs infused oblivion bows a good player even though they can farm dozens of players. Knight's Slayer+Torugs infused oblivion is its magicka mirror build and combining two different kinds of cheese doesnt make you a good player.
Using cheese leads to more cheese and gets classes nerfed. Sorcs were nerfed in PvP primarily due to high KD ratio inspite to a good amount of the kills being kill steals. I for one, will keep a Shieldbreaker in my inv next time I queue to give these builds a taste of their own medicine.

Latios · December 2018

You forgot about the Ice staff magdens, lol.

BG is boring mostly because of the premades getting thrown into solo player matches. And, of course, the matches starting many times 4x3x3.

susmitds · December 2018

Skoomah wrote: »

Everyone will always bring the strongest build they can.

All classes, Stam and Magicka versions are competitive at the moment.

Premades can get a run for their money against good collection of solo players.

If you don’t run cloak, the strongest mitigation in the game, you’re a fool.

BGs have matured. People bring healers because they make a material difference between winning and losing. People have taken lessons from Cyrodiil and brought it into BGs. 4 person ball group instead of 20 person.

I run many different builds and keep mixing them up on a daily basis and not all of them use Cloak. Majority Brawler builds don't use Cloak but brawlerblades are one of the strongest setups in the game right now.

lucky_Sage · December 2018

First yeah solo air vs premades is hard. But it ismy impossible to win. Your team was made to lose at the beginning because you had 2 bowtards I know when I'm in bgs I'll focus the bowtards first for easy kills every time. Bait and kite there greedy players. If you die by pets when there sorc is turtled up and not being offisive huge l2p.use your environment if your in the IC bg use the red portals I was ounce out of all resources and took the red portals and killed 3 people with it. It's the best map for solo que.

Bring back power buff to tdm.

ochsinator · December 2018

I’ve solo surf and been grouped with a coraprotive team that sucks together and wrecked ship. I’ve also qued against teams that are raw and wreck shop.

Point being sometimes you just get grouped with a crap team sometimes you don’t. That pvp in all games. Ya pre made groups have better cooperation but if you get in chat when you solo que and work together with the other randoms you guys can still win.

VaranisArano · December 2018

susmitds wrote: »

ralphylauren wrote: »

To play devils advocate isn’t this the way cheese players would do as you all said: “L2P and adapt”, when the sorc changes were being announced?

And no I don’t play sorc cheese build I run my magdk

VaranisArano wrote: »

There will always be meta-following premade groups in Battlegrounds. That's in large part who BGs was designed for - the "I just wanna small scale with my friends, no zergs" crowd complaining about Cyrodiil zergs.

So you take a bunch of Cyrodiil tower farming, throw them into BGs, and are surprised when they prove adept at figuring out how to farm teams in BGs?

Meta Premade groups have been there in BGs since they launched. You can change the meta: viper, red mountain, troll king, tank/healer pairs, guard, Sloads, dawnbreaker spam, shalk spam, pet spam, whatever, but there will always be a meta and premade groups will always use that to kill you as efficiently as possible.

There are tons of great magsorcs in PvP right now, who created balanced builds and are performing better than ever with shields taking resistance into account. This particular build existed way before this patch and was abused by quite a few players.
It is a known fact that the ways pets work in this game mess with player targeting due to engine limitations. Very much the same way, speed builds caused targeting to bug out.
As a soloer/small scaler myself I go out of my way to make builds work the way it was never intended. (The original melee bow stamblade was a build I made in Thieves Guild patch till SRIBES made it popular using proc sets. It is so broken OP with 30K opening combos, ZOS changed bow heavy mechanic to stop such builds.)
However any PvPer would agree that Oblivion damage is as cheesy as it gets. I dont think anyone would call a stamblade with Shield Breaker+Torugs infused oblivion bows a good player even though they can farm dozens of players. Knight's Slayer+Torugs infused oblivion is its magicka mirror build and combining two different kinds of cheese doesnt make you a good player.
Using cheese leads to more cheese and gets classes nerfed. Sorcs were nerfed in PvP primarily due to high KD ratio inspite to a good amount of the kills being kill steals. I for one, will keep a Shieldbreaker in my inv next time I queue to give these builds a taste of their own medicine.

"Cheese" is simply whatever is the most deadly for the least effort way to win. The most bang for the least buck.

That's why its the meta.

Everyone who cares more about winning than showcasing their skill is going to adopt whatever it is that lets them win the most with the least amount of effort.

Nerfing specific types of "cheese" isnt going to change the fact that it has always existed, people have always complained about it, and it will always exist in new forms. At Summerset, it was Sloads, and now we're complaining about pet sorcs. Endless, endless cycle, and one that ZOS perpetuates because it keeps people playing the game while they chase the carrot of the meta.

If you want to play BGs to show off you skill, go for it. But I expect many of your opponents are playing to win, instead, and thus cheese and the ever changing meta will continue for as long as ZOS can get players to chase that carrot.

VaranisArano · December 2018

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Learn to play. Get some friends. Bring a healer. Use cloak as a Nightblade.

Or just separate premades from solo queue.

How long are you willing to wait for 11 other solo players?

Lumenn · December 2018

I actually run a tanky stamina dk. Not a WHOLE lot of dmg(maybe 4-5 kills per) but if the group I'm with can take advantage of my roots and snares we usually do ok.(im solo though, not pre made) some teams we've wipe out pre made, some we got wiped by pre made. Still fun though

kylewwefan · December 2018

At this point in the game, people are playing what they like. And getting good at it. And then grouping up with other like minded players. Much like they do with trials and dungeons and stuff. Can’t really fault them for that.

Then when you go in as a random and you’re thrown in a group with no coordination, your team gets wrecked. Over and over. People que as wrong roles to get some action faster...this compacts the problems. Many are going Over and over til they get a second place win for the XP bonus. I do. Most times, it’s terrible and takes a few times.

There is this MMR thing. It’s supposed to pin better players against each other but not really good players against bad players. Maybe at times it’s just giving you what’s available?

You see good players also complaining when all they play against are other good players and the matches take forever too.

So I guess, be careful what you ask for.

Odovacar · December 2018

BG's are fun PUG'd or premade but ultimately the approach to success IMO is to watch your ***. Stick with your team depending on the match style, keep your buffs up, help heal others if you can, strategic positioning, etc. Lets not forget now that BG's are available to everyone people are getting good and the rest are getting masterful at their playstyle. There are so many builds I go against that frustrate the **** out of me but I take it as a challenge to learn the best ways to counter and get better. FYI I hate nightblades, js

Lets just have fun!

Slack · December 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

ralphylauren wrote: »

To play devils advocate isn’t this the way cheese players would do as you all said: “L2P and adapt”, when the sorc changes were being announced?

And no I don’t play sorc cheese build I run my magdk

VaranisArano wrote: »

There will always be meta-following premade groups in Battlegrounds. That's in large part who BGs was designed for - the "I just wanna small scale with my friends, no zergs" crowd complaining about Cyrodiil zergs.

So you take a bunch of Cyrodiil tower farming, throw them into BGs, and are surprised when they prove adept at figuring out how to farm teams in BGs?

Meta Premade groups have been there in BGs since they launched. You can change the meta: viper, red mountain, troll king, tank/healer pairs, guard, Sloads, dawnbreaker spam, shalk spam, pet spam, whatever, but there will always be a meta and premade groups will always use that to kill you as efficiently as possible.

There are tons of great magsorcs in PvP right now, who created balanced builds and are performing better than ever with shields taking resistance into account. This particular build existed way before this patch and was abused by quite a few players.
It is a known fact that the ways pets work in this game mess with player targeting due to engine limitations. Very much the same way, speed builds caused targeting to bug out.
As a soloer/small scaler myself I go out of my way to make builds work the way it was never intended. (The original melee bow stamblade was a build I made in Thieves Guild patch till SRIBES made it popular using proc sets. It is so broken OP with 30K opening combos, ZOS changed bow heavy mechanic to stop such builds.)
However any PvPer would agree that Oblivion damage is as cheesy as it gets. I dont think anyone would call a stamblade with Shield Breaker+Torugs infused oblivion bows a good player even though they can farm dozens of players. Knight's Slayer+Torugs infused oblivion is its magicka mirror build and combining two different kinds of cheese doesnt make you a good player.
Using cheese leads to more cheese and gets classes nerfed. Sorcs were nerfed in PvP primarily due to high KD ratio inspite to a good amount of the kills being kill steals. I for one, will keep a Shieldbreaker in my inv next time I queue to give these builds a taste of their own medicine.

Everyone who cares more about winning than showcasing their skill is going to adopt whatever it is that lets them win the most with the least amount of effort.

I got to disagree, I see plenty of shitblades, using a snipe"build" and procs, doing nothing but hunting for easy kills, never staying with team and shouting at others for being trash, when the bowtard himself dies.
Those guys clearly play for showing off their "skill", not being able to realize that they don't have any, because their killscore says otherwise.

SubversusReformed · December 2018

Skoomah wrote: »

Learn to play. Get some friends. Bring a healer. Use cloak as a Nightblade.

You shouldn’t be forced to play in a premade just because the current matchmaking is god awful. Queues need to be separated in absolute 1 person solo queues and group queues.

GROUPS SHOULD BE FORCED TO PLAY SOLO FOR FAST GAMES NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND FFS

Haashhtaag · December 2018

We had a dope group last night, 2 ice wardens, a werewolf build for the bleeds and fear, and a sorc.

VaranisArano · December 2018

Slack wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

ralphylauren wrote: »

To play devils advocate isn’t this the way cheese players would do as you all said: “L2P and adapt”, when the sorc changes were being announced?

And no I don’t play sorc cheese build I run my magdk

VaranisArano wrote: »

There will always be meta-following premade groups in Battlegrounds. That's in large part who BGs was designed for - the "I just wanna small scale with my friends, no zergs" crowd complaining about Cyrodiil zergs.

So you take a bunch of Cyrodiil tower farming, throw them into BGs, and are surprised when they prove adept at figuring out how to farm teams in BGs?

Meta Premade groups have been there in BGs since they launched. You can change the meta: viper, red mountain, troll king, tank/healer pairs, guard, Sloads, dawnbreaker spam, shalk spam, pet spam, whatever, but there will always be a meta and premade groups will always use that to kill you as efficiently as possible.

There are tons of great magsorcs in PvP right now, who created balanced builds and are performing better than ever with shields taking resistance into account. This particular build existed way before this patch and was abused by quite a few players.
It is a known fact that the ways pets work in this game mess with player targeting due to engine limitations. Very much the same way, speed builds caused targeting to bug out.
As a soloer/small scaler myself I go out of my way to make builds work the way it was never intended. (The original melee bow stamblade was a build I made in Thieves Guild patch till SRIBES made it popular using proc sets. It is so broken OP with 30K opening combos, ZOS changed bow heavy mechanic to stop such builds.)
However any PvPer would agree that Oblivion damage is as cheesy as it gets. I dont think anyone would call a stamblade with Shield Breaker+Torugs infused oblivion bows a good player even though they can farm dozens of players. Knight's Slayer+Torugs infused oblivion is its magicka mirror build and combining two different kinds of cheese doesnt make you a good player.
Using cheese leads to more cheese and gets classes nerfed. Sorcs were nerfed in PvP primarily due to high KD ratio inspite to a good amount of the kills being kill steals. I for one, will keep a Shieldbreaker in my inv next time I queue to give these builds a taste of their own medicine.

Everyone who cares more about winning than showcasing their skill is going to adopt whatever it is that lets them win the most with the least amount of effort.

I got to disagree, I see plenty of shitblades, using a snipe"build" and procs, doing nothing but hunting for easy kills, never staying with team and shouting at others for being trash, when the bowtard himself dies.
Those guys clearly play for showing off their "skill", not being able to realize that they don't have any, because their killscore says otherwise.

See, for those guys I just assume that "winning" to them means having lots of kills no matter how badly the "team" does. Certainly thats the case with anyone trying to play Deathmatch during a Domination game...

And, of course, at no point does "Uses Cheese" automatically equal "Good Player"

I've been in that boat myself. I made a Blazeplar build back pre-Morrowind when they were all the rage, and I purely sucked at it, because I didnt know how to play it well and the excellent build couldn't carry me.

But its also not always the case that "Uses Cheese" automatically means "Bad Player". Players who play to win, not caring about showing off their skill, are going to use whatever gets the most bang for the least buck.

In short, if you want to showcase skill, I wouldnt look to Battlegrounds. BGs will always have cheese, used by good and bad players alike. I'd start your own dueling tournament with specific rules about what can and can't be used instead.