The Reality of Battlegrounds right now

ChunkyCat

Haashhtaag wrote: »

We had a dope group last night, 2 ice wardens, a werewolf build for the bleeds and fear, and a sorc.

ban for exploits.

Sergykid

all u wrote there seems fine for me, u just show a variety of builds that are performing against a bunch of new players. U just cry for some bad BGs u had, but everyone has new players in their group sometimes.

those "strategies" are indeed cheese, op, broken, unbalanced, in need of change, etc. But since there are "so many" then it's some kind of balance. Isn't this what we look for? instead of everything nerfed, everything to be op.

BWS2K

The solution is simple: Choose why you're playing. If winning is the only thing that matters to you, then meta-up and play along. If having fun and just goofing around is the only thing that matters to you, then do what you want and don't be surprised if you don't win. In an online game like this you can't really have both once people settle on what constitutes effective meta. You know that now. Nothing should surprise you from here on out. If the meta is pre-made groups of four, and you drop solo, resign yourself to frustration - if winning is what matters to you. This isn't an ESO problem. It's the dynamic of multiplayer games. *shrug*

Tan9oSuccka

In my experience, BGs can be really fun when everyone is just a random.

Premade/cancer build teams pretty much ruin BGs.

Betty_Booms

Yeah it all depends on the group make up. I find nb snipers to be the worst to group with. Especially if they arent securing kills. If you are with 2 its worse as it inevitabley gives the other teams easy ways to focus your team mates not in stealth. They also dont focus the groups primary target and never offer any healing or group support.

If I am grouped with a tanky healer then we generally have success. Oh and those pet sorcs just need a slow and pressure and they will go down. Killing their matriarch also works well as it takes away their heal.

Urvoth

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Too long, definitely did not read past the first couple paragraphs.

So I’m just curious if you mentioned anything about ice wardens. Asking for a friend.

I agree, ice wardens are the real cancer right now.

kathandira

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

In my experience, BGs can be really fun when everyone is just a random.

Premade/cancer build teams pretty much ruin BGs.

Yeah, I hear that. A couple of Guildies and I ran as a 4 man in BG. None of us a geared correctly for it, nor did our characters have the right skill sets ups. We were just in to mess around and have a few laughs.

No laughs were had. When my Ultimate was ticking for 66 damage per second, I was not pleased, lol. Both teams we were against were obviously setup for PvP, and we were 100% ineffective.

_Ahala_

Looks like snare spamming groups are a problem again... who would have thought that would be the result of nerfing mobility across the board

lucky_Sage

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Looks like snare spamming groups are a problem again... who would have thought that would be the result of nerfing mobility across the board

To bad the speed and root and immune worse. The only thing about speed they should of nerfed was swift and FM

max_only

This is highly specific. Like, down to the detail specific. Almost like it’s a specific person you’re talking about.

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Learn to play. Get some friends. Bring a healer. Use cloak as a Nightblade.

Or just separate premades from solo queue.

This.

kathandira

max_only wrote: »

This is highly specific. Like, down to the detail specific. Almost like it’s a specific person you’re talking about.

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Learn to play. Get some friends. Bring a healer. Use cloak as a Nightblade.

Or just separate premades from solo queue.

This.

I've seen this asked for in other online competitive games and mmos. "I" have yet to see it done.

I think the concern would be that it would lower the pool of possible groups in each mode. Also, for those who are creating a group, but aren't really PvP focused, they would likely get completely destroyed by a pre-made team just the way it is now.

There are pros and cons. If anyone has seen a game like ESO where this has been done, i'd love to know how well it worked.

Betty_Booms

Speed builds were cancer for both targeting and ease of escape. Boy it was fun watching 2 stam spinners running after each others backsides at lightening speed in an endless circle only to los and start again.

Snare spam is a result of speed being the issue, not speed being nerfed.

Most speed builds will slow/ snare their targets anyway. To cheese them into not being able to target properly or to make a get away.

With a higher ping you had a DB and steel tornado to the face before they even appeared in melee range....

Haashhtaag

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Looks like snare spamming groups are a problem again... who would have thought that would be the result of nerfing mobility across the board

Betty_Booms wrote: »

Speed builds were cancer for both targeting and ease of escape. Boy it was fun watching 2 stam spinners running after each others backsides at lightening speed in an endless circle only to los and start again.

Snare spam is a result of speed being the issue, not speed being nerfed.

Most speed builds will slow/ snare their targets anyway. To cheese them into not being able to target properly or to make a get away.

With a higher ping you had a DB and steel tornado to the face before they even appeared in melee range....

false. The only issue with speed was the effectiveness of swift. Swift needed the nerf but to also nerf all forms of speed because of swift over performing was ill informed and just plain ignorant.

Skoomah

Wrong! The lot of you! Speed KILLS!

Joy_Division

I sympathize a lot with what the OP writes here. Throw in a charged Ice Staff snare/root Warden for even less fun.

I think it's time ZOS begins to re-evaluate BGs. they originally intended it to be a 4v4v4 format and something "that people can do for 15 minutes during a lunch break," which, to me anyway, suggests a certain casual atmosphere surrounding.

We've been at it for over a year and a half now and we know how BGs plays out: anything casual is going to get rekt because too many people are using what is super efficient in a no CP environment (things like proc sets, bleeds, oblivion damage, etc.) or you run into premade groups. So much for the casual atmosphere.

Why don't we try something different? Change things up. How about just going for two teams to see how the dynamic plays out: 6v6, 8v8, and 12v12. Many of the maps ZOS made, particularly the newer ones, are quite good and could accommodate that with some modifications. Have a "hardcore" mode that's just for premades and make a legit leaderboard out of it. A 6v6 with premades of players I knew is something I'd actually watch on Twitch and generally I don't like watching people play videogames.

Most of all, I think ZOS needs to pay particular attention to how small-scale combat works in ESO. We all know that ESO was balanced for large scaled PvP. OK fair enough. But now small-scale is a game system and ZOS devotes resources into supporting BGs every update so it's high time they take a long look at how to attain a balance that is fun to play where people don;t feel pressured to use builds that capitalize on perma snares, bleeds, oblivion damage, with kill strategies centered on spin2win + Dawnbreaker or kill stealing.

MaxJrFTW

VaranisArano wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Learn to play. Get some friends. Bring a healer. Use cloak as a Nightblade.

Or just separate premades from solo queue.

How long are you willing to wait for 11 other solo players?

What kind of stupid attempt at a counter argument is this? You think i would rather get run over by a premade, than wait an extra 5-10 mins to have a fun and balanced game?

Olupajmibanan

MMR is awful. It was reworked once and only to worse. It can only grow wheter you win or lose.

Simple workaround: don't play with one character only. Crate a new nightblade, the almost exact copy of your current one. You will stomp your opponents, trust me. And once your MMR on your new character is so high that you end up only against unbeatable opponents, switch to your previous NB. By the time, overall MMR has grown but your first NB stayed at the same MMR because you didn't play it during that time. Switch characters anytime you feel that it is not going anywhere.

bellanca6561n

susmitds wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

There’s two pet sorcs running on PC/NA that both have two pets and at least one is using the deadroth monster set lol. So a 4 man team turns into an 8-10 and in the confined space of BGs you can target anything. If you catch one of them alone they jsut spam shields and hope their pets kill you. Unbelievable cheesy. Why anyone would consider that fun is beyond me.

Pretty sure, we are talking about the same duo here.

Yeah, ran into them multiple times recently.

And while I found the OPs opening disquisition so hilarious it was hard to stop laughing, I continue to have fun in Battlegrounds. They involve such a short commitment of time, the silly ones are thus quite forgettable, and every so often you get a really interesting match.

Thus it remains my favorite addition to the game to-date.

technohic

Joy_Division wrote: »

I sympathize a lot with what the OP writes here. Throw in a charged Ice Staff snare/root Warden for even less fun.

I think it's time ZOS begins to re-evaluate BGs. they originally intended it to be a 4v4v4 format and something "that people can do for 15 minutes during a lunch break," which, to me anyway, suggests a certain casual atmosphere surrounding.

We've been at it for over a year and a half now and we know how BGs plays out: anything casual is going to get rekt because too many people are using what is super efficient in a no CP environment (things like proc sets, bleeds, oblivion damage, etc.) or you run into premade groups. So much for the casual atmosphere.

Why don't we try something different? Change things up. How about just going for two teams to see how the dynamic plays out: 6v6, 8v8, and 12v12. Many of the maps ZOS made, particularly the newer ones, are quite good and could accommodate that with some modifications. Have a "hardcore" mode that's just for premades and make a legit leaderboard out of it. A 6v6 with premades of players I knew is something I'd actually watch on Twitch and generally I don't like watching people play videogames.

Most of all, I think ZOS needs to pay particular attention to how small-scale combat works in ESO. We all know that ESO was balanced for large scaled PvP. OK fair enough. But now small-scale is a game system and ZOS devotes resources into supporting BGs every update so it's high time they take a long look at how to attain a balance that is fun to play where people don;t feel pressured to use builds that capitalize on perma snares, bleeds, oblivion damage, with kill strategies centered on spin2win + Dawnbreaker or kill stealing.

They also need to take a look at CP. Its either good for PvP in arenas or its not good. The bleeds, procs, and oblivion damage are just evidence of what happens when you balance for one way then play another.

Skoomah

They should separate the premades vs solo queuers.

I don’t agree with nerfing because people have found ways to be effective. Where do you stop? It’s harder than ever for any class to 1vX. I think the balancing is good at the moment. 1v1, most matchups between classes are competitive.

I’ve fought against high level MMR teams and differently built teams can be competitive vs. each other.

ZOS should implement a real ladder system that queues you up against other people at your skill level. The way it works now is that your MMR goes up simply by how much you play not by how good you actually are. If we had a proper ladder system, the casual player would continue to get placed in matches with casual players. And hardcore players would get placed in matches with other hardcores.

Mediocre vs mediocre.

Good vs good.

VaranisArano

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Learn to play. Get some friends. Bring a healer. Use cloak as a Nightblade.

Or just separate premades from solo queue.

How long are you willing to wait for 11 other solo players?

What kind of stupid attempt at a counter argument is this? You think i would rather get run over by a premade, than wait an extra 5-10 mins to have a fun and balanced game?

Nit a counter argument...simply a point. You are willing to wait an extra 5 to 10 minutes for 11 other solo players.

I certainly hope the BG population means it would only take 5 to 10 minutes then.


Edited to add: my preferred solution is 3 queues. A random- only queue, a premade group of 2,3, and 4 queue, and a queue for solo players willing to play with randoms and premades. Obviously, the queue for solo players willing to play with everyone would move the fastest.

The problem with my solution, of course, is that BG populations are just low. Any sort of split queue increases the wait time, and we dont have the data to know how long most people are willing to wait.

VaranisArano

kathandira wrote: »

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

In my experience, BGs can be really fun when everyone is just a random.

Premade/cancer build teams pretty much ruin BGs.

Yeah, I hear that. A couple of Guildies and I ran as a 4 man in BG. None of us a geared correctly for it, nor did our characters have the right skill sets ups. We were just in to mess around and have a few laughs.

No laughs were had. When my Ultimate was ticking for 66 damage per second, I was not pleased, lol. Both teams we were against were obviously setup for PvP, and we were 100% ineffective.

Not to be snide here, but you rolled into a PVP mode unprepared for PVP and were completely ineffective?

That's pretty much how PVP works in this game, Cyrodiil, Imperial City, Dueling and Battlegrounds. That is not unique to Battlegrounds.

MinarasLaure

They should put premade groups with premade groups.
So if you queue as a group you know you will end up with another premade group

zyk

I don't play BGs, but we see much of the same in Cyrodiil. PVP is pure cheese atm.

Bam_Bam

I like BG's

Perwulf

Premades are the real cheese problem.

MajBludd

Sounds exactly like cyro, but smaller scale.

Undefwun

MajBludd wrote: »

Sounds exactly like cyro, but smaller scale.

Yes in a way there are mini balls groups, but when you die:
a) don't have to hope for a res and when everyone just runs over you b) and c)
b) don't have to hope the camp has been placed, not out of range, used up or under attack.
c) don't have to ride for a while to get back into the action (not always the case in cyro, but often is)
d) you can get a feel for your opponents and try different strategies, as the players or numbers don't change

I had the most fun in BGs during Dragon Bones. I played a magblade, stam sorc and stam DK, just for reference.
All felt competitive, the only thing annoying were bowtards and mag sorc fury spammers, but you could take them with a grain of salt. I was really hopeful for the future of pvp, but since then it felt like we've taken a few steps backwards.

Feanor

@Joy_Division

To me the actual problem is that the game isy balanced around CP, and noCP is an afterthought. I don't see ZOS doing balance passes on noCP environments, all they do is release new BG maps and call it a day. If you want itemization to be impactful in a CP environment, it most times means that it's going to be an even more distinct advantage for noCP.

I'd love a noCP campaign where all damage and healing proc sets were disabled for example - no more Incap - Caluurion - Zaan from stealth, and no more "yay Earthgore or Troll King procced". And the snares need to be single utility skills - and not attached to everything out there. Reign in the bleeds, and get rid of Oblivion damage.

I repeat myself, but a correct balance cycle would be: noCP PvP -> CP PvP -> PvE. Unfortunately ZOS does it the other way round as it's much easier.

TheDarkShadow

So 2 pre-made groups with 2 different strats but both well-coordinated tied while the random pug got destroyed? Sound reasonable to me. If you win more and more, you will be put up with better and better opponents and the top MMR bracket is usually well-coordinated pre-made group. The risk is higher in server downtime when they have to scrape the bottom of the barrel. If you want to be the top you need to find a group to play with. If you're just casual playing for fun then lose to them a few time and you will go back to lower bracket, no big deal. You still get decent reward even if you lose.