Biro123 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

I would acknowledge that there's an issue too. But my belief is that it can be solved on a level of personal responsability .

See, now this is where we completely disagree.
When there are only 30 people available to PVP at that time of day and 24 of them are all on one faction - the ONLY solution is to even up the sides.. ie for 14 of those 24 to move to other faction.

So that 'personal responsibility' lies entirely with them, NOT with the remaining 6 who are already doing the right thing by not giving up and not switching to the winning faction.

We've seen over the last 3 years, that you and yours simply will not accept that personal responsibility - so its useless to even talk about it.

Where you say "[...]when there are only 30 people available[...]" that's why I included that it takes time to build a guild. Because it's not only 30 people over a 4 years period of time 24h/day. You have people that don't bother going in to Cyrodiil because they don't like the odds (I've been there myself). There are people that change character to a different faction. There are silent people just waiting in sneak to at some point go for something that's giving them AP. And there are plenty of more scenarios to why you don't see these people.
But if they were in a guild, they would also see in the guild roster if there's more people online and incentivise them to join too.
If they were in a guild and in a group they would be encouraged to help out to attack/defend a keep, knowing the odds aren't as terrible as it looks. A positive spin creates more positive opportunities.
Knowing how many people that will help, at bare minimum, incentivises people to attack/defend when they know the odds are good enough.
Even if we do disagree on the odds for success of creating a guild, with the intent of winning the campaign, I would still like to see someone actually try it. Because I know from (20 years gaming online and 20 years of studying psychology) experience that it works, but I've seen no true and wholehearted attempts being made to make a change on their own to actually battle it.

Invite that guy that's currently only playing in the evening - who knows, maybe he's just not logging on because he doesn't like the odds in the morning/afternoon.
Invite that guy that's completely new to pvp - maybe a couple of months he'll be great.
Get people that's not usually into pvp to try it - maybe they will enjoy it.
Some people will join once and never go back. Some people will try it a few times before they disappear. Some people will show up sporadically. But there are 500 spots available in a guild and there's no reason to keep it closed for only "good enough" ones.

Do it Biro. DO IT! Go! Chop chop! Be the great leader you have the potential to be and lead those who can't tell the difference between their ass and their backbar!

Edit: I just noticed you can only play 5-7pm. You make a guild, have a few "officers" that you MAKE SURE are on the same page, so you deligate the responsability for when you're not there. Make the goals clear for everyone. Keep a few but strics rules.

I see it approaching peak time.. Too many times lately, I've been on the winning side of combats only to find loads of AD individuals hiding. You uncover them, do they gank? do they fight? Are they AFK? No - they simply run and try to hide.. It's a straight 1v1 for crying out loud! what are you hiding from?? Even seen it inside AD keeps where the inner is under-siege.. AD players hiding on the walls - not trying to get inside the inner to defend, and when discovered, jump off the walls back outside and run.. What are they doing? Just trying to hide inside so after its taken, rezz people so they can PVDoor again? Real PVP too hard? This whole attitude stinks.

Or when theyre caught in the open while traveling. They rather die on their mounts while running away than fight you.
And still have the balls to call that weak excuse of a playstyle 'playing smart'

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Invite that guy that's currently only playing in the evening - who knows, maybe he's just not logging on because he doesn't like the odds in the morning/afternoon.
Invite that guy that's completely new to pvp - maybe a couple of months he'll be great.
Get people that's not usually into pvp to try it - maybe they will enjoy it.
Some people will join once and never go back. Some people will try it a few times before they disappear. Some people will show up sporadically. But there are 500 spots available in a guild and there's no reason to keep it closed for only "good enough" ones.

I love how you´re completely contradicting yourself here by having stated earlier that you enjoyed playing with a group of friends.
What you´re describing is 100% the opposite of that. You describing building a guild purely for results.

Also this still doesn´t adress the main problem - people (on all sides) don´t want to fight for the most part. Why don´t you AD go to sotha to fight even number EP there?
Because you don´t want to actually fight on even odds. Once you accept that this is true (maybe not for you but for the large majority of people you play with) you´ll realize that everything that you´re telling others here is nonsense.

Not really. I honestly don't know anyone irl that's playing ESO. Never have.
I joined the guild because I wanted to learn Cyrodiil. There were/are no other options in terms of guilds doing what I enjoy; taking keeps, big fights, strategically planning where to strike, being active doing so. In the beginning I tried to find as many guilds as possible to play with. But they're either really inactive, don't play for the map, no strategic planning, no interests in big fights. Now I've come to consider most of these people as my friends in game. I never meant it to sound like I exclusively play with friends (both irl and in game), and I don't, because that would exclude a healthy guild enviornment. Without new people joining it runs a massive risk of going under, because things happen to people that prevents them from further playing.

Maybe most people can't handle themselves in small scale because they're new? I know loads of AD just run around and leech AP because they're bored. Maybe they're built for large scale, like me? I know I shouldn't stand a chance in 1on1. I don't have the CP's for it, I don't have the gear nor the skills to support it. Everything in my build is made for dealing with large groups of people at once. You honestly gonna have to talk to them if you want to find out.

I would absolutely LOVE if there was more even competition each morning/afternoon before the lag starts. But the main campaign has always been Vivec, even if we pop into Sotha from time to time. I already know that the majority doesn't wanna do the same thing I want to do. That's why I've had such a hard time finding something similar.

A few reasons I've heard to why people don't want to go to Sotha:
Some people don't wanna swap to Sotha because they don't know anybody there.
Some people don't wanna swap because it's not a part of their "routine".
Some people don't wanna swap because they have nothing to gain there (in terms of rewards).
Some people, like you said, don't care about the fights and just follow others around.
Some people don't feel safe about their own performance and don't wanna risk being called out on it.
Some people thoroughly enjoy chasing down certain EP/DC players on Vivec, as a form of revenge.

Can I ask you, do you consider the only factor of "even odds" attributed to amount of players? If so, what other odds are there that should also be adressed to make it even?

BE AD OR BE REKT !

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

BE AD OR BE REKT !

Then all the casuals and scrubs flock to AD[...]

Let's be honest, that's already happened.

Biro123 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

I would acknowledge that there's an issue too. But my belief is that it can be solved on a level of personal responsability .

See, now this is where we completely disagree.
When there are only 30 people available to PVP at that time of day and 24 of them are all on one faction - the ONLY solution is to even up the sides.. ie for 14 of those 24 to move to other faction.

So that 'personal responsibility' lies entirely with them, NOT with the remaining 6 who are already doing the right thing by not giving up and not switching to the winning faction.

We've seen over the last 3 years, that you and yours simply will not accept that personal responsibility - so its useless to even talk about it.

Where you say "[...]when there are only 30 people available[...]" that's why I included that it takes time to build a guild. Because it's not only 30 people over a 4 years period of time 24h/day. You have people that don't bother going in to Cyrodiil because they don't like the odds (I've been there myself). There are people that change character to a different faction. There are silent people just waiting in sneak to at some point go for something that's giving them AP. And there are plenty of more scenarios to why you don't see these people.
But if they were in a guild, they would also see in the guild roster if there's more people online and incentivise them to join too.
If they were in a guild and in a group they would be encouraged to help out to attack/defend a keep, knowing the odds aren't as terrible as it looks. A positive spin creates more positive opportunities.
Knowing how many people that will help, at bare minimum, incentivises people to attack/defend when they know the odds are good enough.
Even if we do disagree on the odds for success of creating a guild, with the intent of winning the campaign, I would still like to see someone actually try it. Because I know from (20 years gaming online and 20 years of studying psychology) experience that it works, but I've seen no true and wholehearted attempts being made to make a change on their own to actually battle it.

Invite that guy that's currently only playing in the evening - who knows, maybe he's just not logging on because he doesn't like the odds in the morning/afternoon.
Invite that guy that's completely new to pvp - maybe a couple of months he'll be great.
Get people that's not usually into pvp to try it - maybe they will enjoy it.
Some people will join once and never go back. Some people will try it a few times before they disappear. Some people will show up sporadically. But there are 500 spots available in a guild and there's no reason to keep it closed for only "good enough" ones.

Do it Biro. DO IT! Go! Chop chop! Be the great leader you have the potential to be and lead those who can't tell the difference between their ass and their backbar!

Edit: I just noticed you can only play 5-7pm. You make a guild, have a few "officers" that you MAKE SURE are on the same page, so you deligate the responsability for when you're not there. Make the goals clear for everyone. Keep a few but strics rules.

Err, no. It's a game, not a job. I've done the 'guild-running' thing before in other games. It's one thing to run a guild where you're planned activities happen when you (and your membership) are playing anyway. It's completely different to try to make it work around the clock.
For this to work, it would need:
1. A leader (leaders) who regularly play for a reasonable length of time during these off-peak times. For crying out loud, there are only a handful of leaders at peak times.!
2. Enough people playing those times for long enough to make grouping worth while.. Yeah, I used to be able to log in for a quick 'half-hour' before work or on lunchtimes.. Not enough to get anything done with a group, by the time you join, get to where they are, wait for other members etc... its just slower than running solo.. I suspect the majority of off-peak players are like this. Those that aren't... well, they're already zerging the empty servers.

And as Derra said, which I completely agree with.. Why do people keep playing on the servers with no opposition, when there are plenty of them jus a server-hop away?
I'll say it again, the problem isn't with the few people trying to counter these zergs, no matter how badly they are doing it - the problem is with these zergs who simply do not want to fight with anything other than an overwhelming advantage.
Ask yourself, what would you do if all the EP from Sotha suddenly landed in Vivec and your groups suddenly couldn't capture anything? I'll tell you what would happen - you'd go to Sotha so you could start winning again..

I see it approaching peak time.. Too many times lately, I've been on the winning side of combats only to find loads of AD individuals hiding. You uncover them, do they gank? do they fight? Are they AFK? No - they simply run and try to hide.. It's a straight 1v1 for crying out loud! what are you hiding from?? Even seen it inside AD keeps where the inner is under-siege.. AD players hiding on the walls - not trying to get inside the inner to defend, and when discovered, jump off the walls back outside and run.. What are they doing? Just trying to hide inside so after its taken, rezz people so they can PVDoor again? Real PVP too hard? This whole attitude stinks.

I said before I log off at 7 due to lag.. Its also partly because there is no competition for DC at that point.. EP are usually 2-bars and almost a non-entity, and AD collapse after Ash is retaken, and there is little contest there. I get bored when all we are doing is taking lightly-defended keep after lightly-defended keep..
The most fun with PVP happens with evenly matched sides.. The best fights are those long-running open fights that used to happen much more between Nickel and Roe, or Bleakers and Chal.. Evenly matched, back and forth.. Fights with places and roles for all sizes of groups from solo to 24s..
But too many people are actively trying to keep it Uneven, especially offpeak - which overall only serves to destroy PVP, not to continue it.

Off-Topic: I hate how these things usualle devolve into writing a damn book as a reply :P

But like I said above, if you deligate the responsability to other players and you don't have to be online that much. You have, let's say, 5 people under you. Those 5 people are ready to take lead when they're online. You don't have to view it as a job, nobody has to be there all the time, because as someone logs off someone else will have logged on. That's what it's like when you utilize as much of the guild roster as possible
1. People can be taught to step up and take lead. For some of them, all they need is a little bit of encouragement. I've worked actively with it for the past 10-15 years online. For others you just gonna need to tell them "keep the crown, shift-click where you're going, the people that doesn't follow you kick". I've seen a few people in Cyrodiil, for example, growing from being completely quiet and docile (people you wouldn't really notice) to actively starting their own groups and taking the lead.
2. I think I know what you mean. But it doesn't need to be "everything as I want it to be" to make things worth while. I want big even fights, but that Extremely rarely happens. I usually get extremely frustrated with "the guild" because too many people don't think about group play. For example, several people chasing one guy, while healers getting slaughtered at the back, then those ppl chasing end up dead from being outnumbered and now everyone is dead. But they all make it worthwhile with who they are as people (that's not thanks to the game though). That's why I keep returning, even if I sometimes just quit out of frustration.

I can tell you why I sometimes do it. Because sometimes it's relaxing just being on TS, sharing a few laughs, while sipping the morning coffee and just watch the ram do the work. And sometimes I just log off after 5-10mins because there is nothing to fight. But there are various reasons and I'm just one out of 200 people.

" the problem isn't [...] the problem is [...] anything other than an overwhelming advantage"
I don't think I even mentioned the few people trying to counter it? If I did, then I don't think I would put the blame on them. They are the whole I reason I sometimes stay for such a long time.
When you talk about "zergs who simply do not want to fight with anything other than an overwhelming advantage" I'm not sure what you're refering to. You're a bit all over the place. The few ppl defending is a reference to the morning, right? And the people that only fight with an overwhelming advantage is.. when?
If you mean what "the guild" is doing, then no, because then we wouldn't bother defending while being outnumbered.
If you talk about the avarage player, then yeah. I can't play my main during peak hours, because I go against a zerg of 40 (what my main is built for), while our 50 AD run away. But it can't survive 1vs40. But people usually run away from the group having the momentum, it goes both ways. I can't play my small scale characters because the lag and delay is so terrible that it's impossible to even break free from CC's.

Well there are loads of reasons for why people do it. Some people just wanna leech AP, some people actually RP to an extent, some people are new and want to see what's happening without getting killed, some people think they can save the entire situation by slowly ressing their friends, some people are on the phone (or busy with something else) and can't fight properly at the time, and then there are some people not built for 1vs1 and know their best option is to try and get away.
I wish everyone was built for large scale combat and that everyone wanted to play as a team, but I know that not everyone wants that. Sometimes communication doesn't work, due to people not speaking the same language, to even allow group play. I wish there were some kind of end game progression stages, so if you perform better you would also advance and be rewarded with gear to match it. With the progression stages you would also slowly move away from the stages where the less experienced players are.

"The most fun with PVP happens with evenly matched sides[...]"
Yeah I agree. It can be 5 experienced players vs 20, or 15 evenly experienced players against 15.

"But too many people are actively trying to keep it Uneven, especially offpeak - which overall only serves to destroy PVP, not to continue it."
You gonna need to elaborate this part.
Because as it is: gear does make a difference, CP allocation makes a difference, amount of players makes a difference. Derra for example would be able to blow up several people on his own, one after another, I can't kill anything on my own with my main. Experience makes a difference, reaction time makes a difference, perception makes a difference, communication makes a difference, situational awareness makes a difference.
So pretending that being outnumbered is the only way to "keep it uneven" isn't correct one bit, so I hope that's not what you're saying. Or you wanna flatten every possible chance to use your tools to your advantage? Please elaborate

Biro123 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

BE AD OR BE REKT !

Then all the casuals and scrubs flock to AD[...]

Let's be honest, that's already happened.

Biro123 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

I would acknowledge that there's an issue too. But my belief is that it can be solved on a level of personal responsability .

See, now this is where we completely disagree.
When there are only 30 people available to PVP at that time of day and 24 of them are all on one faction - the ONLY solution is to even up the sides.. ie for 14 of those 24 to move to other faction.

So that 'personal responsibility' lies entirely with them, NOT with the remaining 6 who are already doing the right thing by not giving up and not switching to the winning faction.

We've seen over the last 3 years, that you and yours simply will not accept that personal responsibility - so its useless to even talk about it.

Where you say "[...]when there are only 30 people available[...]" that's why I included that it takes time to build a guild. Because it's not only 30 people over a 4 years period of time 24h/day. You have people that don't bother going in to Cyrodiil because they don't like the odds (I've been there myself). There are people that change character to a different faction. There are silent people just waiting in sneak to at some point go for something that's giving them AP. And there are plenty of more scenarios to why you don't see these people.
But if they were in a guild, they would also see in the guild roster if there's more people online and incentivise them to join too.
If they were in a guild and in a group they would be encouraged to help out to attack/defend a keep, knowing the odds aren't as terrible as it looks. A positive spin creates more positive opportunities.
Knowing how many people that will help, at bare minimum, incentivises people to attack/defend when they know the odds are good enough.
Even if we do disagree on the odds for success of creating a guild, with the intent of winning the campaign, I would still like to see someone actually try it. Because I know from (20 years gaming online and 20 years of studying psychology) experience that it works, but I've seen no true and wholehearted attempts being made to make a change on their own to actually battle it.

Invite that guy that's currently only playing in the evening - who knows, maybe he's just not logging on because he doesn't like the odds in the morning/afternoon.
Invite that guy that's completely new to pvp - maybe a couple of months he'll be great.
Get people that's not usually into pvp to try it - maybe they will enjoy it.
Some people will join once and never go back. Some people will try it a few times before they disappear. Some people will show up sporadically. But there are 500 spots available in a guild and there's no reason to keep it closed for only "good enough" ones.

Do it Biro. DO IT! Go! Chop chop! Be the great leader you have the potential to be and lead those who can't tell the difference between their ass and their backbar!

Edit: I just noticed you can only play 5-7pm. You make a guild, have a few "officers" that you MAKE SURE are on the same page, so you deligate the responsability for when you're not there. Make the goals clear for everyone. Keep a few but strics rules.

Err, no. It's a game, not a job. I've done the 'guild-running' thing before in other games. It's one thing to run a guild where you're planned activities happen when you (and your membership) are playing anyway. It's completely different to try to make it work around the clock.
For this to work, it would need:
1. A leader (leaders) who regularly play for a reasonable length of time during these off-peak times. For crying out loud, there are only a handful of leaders at peak times.!
2. Enough people playing those times for long enough to make grouping worth while.. Yeah, I used to be able to log in for a quick 'half-hour' before work or on lunchtimes.. Not enough to get anything done with a group, by the time you join, get to where they are, wait for other members etc... its just slower than running solo.. I suspect the majority of off-peak players are like this. Those that aren't... well, they're already zerging the empty servers.

And as Derra said, which I completely agree with.. Why do people keep playing on the servers with no opposition, when there are plenty of them jus a server-hop away?
I'll say it again, the problem isn't with the few people trying to counter these zergs, no matter how badly they are doing it - the problem is with these zergs who simply do not want to fight with anything other than an overwhelming advantage.
Ask yourself, what would you do if all the EP from Sotha suddenly landed in Vivec and your groups suddenly couldn't capture anything? I'll tell you what would happen - you'd go to Sotha so you could start winning again..

I see it approaching peak time.. Too many times lately, I've been on the winning side of combats only to find loads of AD individuals hiding. You uncover them, do they gank? do they fight? Are they AFK? No - they simply run and try to hide.. It's a straight 1v1 for crying out loud! what are you hiding from?? Even seen it inside AD keeps where the inner is under-siege.. AD players hiding on the walls - not trying to get inside the inner to defend, and when discovered, jump off the walls back outside and run.. What are they doing? Just trying to hide inside so after its taken, rezz people so they can PVDoor again? Real PVP too hard? This whole attitude stinks.

I said before I log off at 7 due to lag.. Its also partly because there is no competition for DC at that point.. EP are usually 2-bars and almost a non-entity, and AD collapse after Ash is retaken, and there is little contest there. I get bored when all we are doing is taking lightly-defended keep after lightly-defended keep..
The most fun with PVP happens with evenly matched sides.. The best fights are those long-running open fights that used to happen much more between Nickel and Roe, or Bleakers and Chal.. Evenly matched, back and forth.. Fights with places and roles for all sizes of groups from solo to 24s..
But too many people are actively trying to keep it Uneven, especially offpeak - which overall only serves to destroy PVP, not to continue it.

Off-Topic: I hate how these things usualle devolve into writing a damn book as a reply :P

But like I said above, if you deligate the responsability to other players and you don't have to be online that much. You have, let's say, 5 people under you. Those 5 people are ready to take lead when they're online. You don't have to view it as a job, nobody has to be there all the time, because as someone logs off someone else will have logged on. That's what it's like when you utilize as much of the guild roster as possible
1. People can be taught to step up and take lead. For some of them, all they need is a little bit of encouragement. I've worked actively with it for the past 10-15 years online. For others you just gonna need to tell them "keep the crown, shift-click where you're going, the people that doesn't follow you kick". I've seen a few people in Cyrodiil, for example, growing from being completely quiet and docile (people you wouldn't really notice) to actively starting their own groups and taking the lead.
2. I think I know what you mean. But it doesn't need to be "everything as I want it to be" to make things worth while. I want big even fights, but that Extremely rarely happens. I usually get extremely frustrated with "the guild" because too many people don't think about group play. For example, several people chasing one guy, while healers getting slaughtered at the back, then those ppl chasing end up dead from being outnumbered and now everyone is dead. But they all make it worthwhile with who they are as people (that's not thanks to the game though). That's why I keep returning, even if I sometimes just quit out of frustration.

I can tell you why I sometimes do it. Because sometimes it's relaxing just being on TS, sharing a few laughs, while sipping the morning coffee and just watch the ram do the work. And sometimes I just log off after 5-10mins because there is nothing to fight. But there are various reasons and I'm just one out of 200 people.

" the problem isn't [...] the problem is [...] anything other than an overwhelming advantage"
I don't think I even mentioned the few people trying to counter it? If I did, then I don't think I would put the blame on them. They are the whole I reason I sometimes stay for such a long time.
When you talk about "zergs who simply do not want to fight with anything other than an overwhelming advantage" I'm not sure what you're refering to. You're a bit all over the place. The few ppl defending is a reference to the morning, right? And the people that only fight with an overwhelming advantage is.. when?
If you mean what "the guild" is doing, then no, because then we wouldn't bother defending while being outnumbered.
If you talk about the avarage player, then yeah. I can't play my main during peak hours, because I go against a zerg of 40 (what my main is built for), while our 50 AD run away. But it can't survive 1vs40. But people usually run away from the group having the momentum, it goes both ways. I can't play my small scale characters because the lag and delay is so terrible that it's impossible to even break free from CC's.

Well there are loads of reasons for why people do it. Some people just wanna leech AP, some people actually RP to an extent, some people are new and want to see what's happening without getting killed, some people think they can save the entire situation by slowly ressing their friends, some people are on the phone (or busy with something else) and can't fight properly at the time, and then there are some people not built for 1vs1 and know their best option is to try and get away.
I wish everyone was built for large scale combat and that everyone wanted to play as a team, but I know that not everyone wants that. Sometimes communication doesn't work, due to people not speaking the same language, to even allow group play. I wish there were some kind of end game progression stages, so if you perform better you would also advance and be rewarded with gear to match it. With the progression stages you would also slowly move away from the stages where the less experienced players are.

"The most fun with PVP happens with evenly matched sides[...]"
Yeah I agree. It can be 5 experienced players vs 20, or 15 evenly experienced players against 15.

"But too many people are actively trying to keep it Uneven, especially offpeak - which overall only serves to destroy PVP, not to continue it."
You gonna need to elaborate this part.
Because as it is: gear does make a difference, CP allocation makes a difference, amount of players makes a difference. Derra for example would be able to blow up several people on his own, one after another, I can't kill anything on my own with my main. Experience makes a difference, reaction time makes a difference, perception makes a difference, communication makes a difference, situational awareness makes a difference.
So pretending that being outnumbered is the only way to "keep it uneven" isn't correct one bit, so I hope that's not what you're saying. Or you wanna flatten every possible chance to use your tools to your advantage? Please elaborate

Sorry man, this is complete BS.
I don't even have the enthusiasm anymore to break it down bit by bit to explain. You win, you and yours have already practically driven me from the game (and many others).
It's obvious you flat out refuse to see you your actions are leading to the death of PVP.
Enjoy your empty servers.

You don't need to reply to Everything. It's just me trying to answer all your questions that's filling up most the space :P
We can narrow it down to a discussion about the players responsabily to try and do something about it. Because what I get from you is that it's about the amount of people. Heck, you could create a guild for the sole purpose of players being able to see who's online and who's not, without any supervision.
I did that for PvE with a guild called "Looking for Group" (because the tool was rubbish). I got about 100 players in a week and merged with another guild with 200 players shortly after, that had the same idea "the LFG-tool is rubbish, this should make it easier for people".
I can tell you what's driving even more people away; the complete lack of end game progression, especially so for PvP.
It makes it easier for new people to join, but then there's also no reason for experienced players to stay.

You're so locked down to everything being "this way or that way" that you don't even bother to see the nuance of people. It makes it more convenient, you don't have to try and take responsability (ie making a guild) and you don't have to put your beliefs to the test.. because you could be proven wrong if you did.. But hey, each to their own. I hope it makes you happier at the end of the day!