So this is what the PC/EU guys have been complaining about forever

Biro123

Master_Kas wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

My first character was AD, but I would NEVER PVP for that faction, since they seem to be doing everything they possibly can to stifle PVP.

Hmm. But I see you are DC. Which at least on vivec most of the tme is a mindless zerg too.

Ahh, but DC is the mindless zerg that looks for a fight, not the mindless zerg that does everything it can to avoid it.. A much more classy kind of mindlessness!

tbh, it only exists because its the only thing that shifts the AD faction-stack out of Ash every early-evening.. And you know how these things work - once it starts there's a momentum that's hard to stop.

BS. The DC megatrains always was here just at diffrent times compared to the AD one. Most of these (TDA, Legion/Hungry wolves) are members who was part of the same guilds before. Including old blackswords. They always used to stack up 40+ man trains zerging down the map in the old trueflame campaign (when azura was the main campaign).

I remember guilds going to Trueflame back then just to farm the blue megablob, and in that campaign there was hardly any EP or AD opposition.

Bah. Everyone has megatrains at some point during primetime.
Currently it's AD that create the necessity fir them right at the start of primetime.

Thoragaal

montjie wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We been enjoying this for 2 years now

I have much respect for you Derra and I hate your streaking a**
But, we all know that fighting outnumbered is the biggest issue (no fighting chance when it happens). I started pvp'ing about 1½ year ago, but I don't see any efforts from players getting together and fight it. All I see is people complaining like it's someone else responsability, so why doesn't EP and DC come together to fight it?
I mean if it means so much, then surely someone would start a guild and pick up people that wants to fight, no?

Maybe because most people in pvp don´t go there to fight other players but rather to pve for points?
It´s not like EP isn´t doing the same thing on sotha. Or DC doing it on sotha or shor.

The problem is a structural one where pve/pvdoor gives pvp rewards thus encouraging destructive behavior from the player side.

This is also the reason why the players still going to vivec on EP and DC side often times prefer to fight each other instead of AD.
Fighting AD is absolutely asinine as most of the factions players do actively avoid fighting unless they´re sure they´ll win. Otherwise they´ll sit inside a keep and siege you or wait in sneak until they´re sure the fight they engage into is already won.

So the problem isn´t only that you don´t have the people to start building such a guild in the first place (because most play easymode on a different campaign their faction dominates) - it´s also that the people you´d fight do everything to prevent you from actually having interesting fights.

You can´t fight people that do everything to not fight you - on terms that could be fun for both parties (see only healy healy tanky tanky builds with no dmg or they´re sneaking - the former aims to win the fight by surviving and outnumbering to kill anything - the latter aims to control fight conditions and only engages when they think they´ll win).

You can´t fix it on the player side (see also why don´t sotha EP come vivec to have action there).
The large majority choses the way of least resistance to get their carrot on a stick (in this case pvp rewards).
If a developer wants to have meaningful open world pvp either the map has to be designed differently to encourage the two weak factions to work together or they have to prevent the leading faction from being too dominant (dynamic population caps).

My personal sense is that you don't like the objective driven pvp-type of gameplay. Like for example, take a keep requires people, in order to not letting the keep be taken you need defense and pvp ensues.
But since the majority is pushing for keeps and taking scrolls, then it also shows that's what the majority wants.
I mean, each to their own thing.
If you wanna small scale, go ahead, but you probably should avoid those bigger groups. If that's what the majority of players want then surely you have no issues finding similar minded people to play against/with.
If someone else just wants to sit inside a keep and snipe, then that's their prerogative to do so. If they wanna scuddle away as soon as someone built for melee fights, then that players best bet is to run away.
If people want to avoid fighting and focus on the most strategic choices for them to make AP, then that's fine too, no? I know plenty of people with the reaction time of a potatoe. I like them as people, I like playing with them because of their personality. But it would be completely foolish of me to take said person into a 2vs2 scenario.

You can't force people to pvp the way you like to pvp.
To me it just sounds like you don't like the idea behind "crown an emperor by taking keeps" and would rather just pvp. There's duels outside of cyrodiil. There's BG's for small scale combat. There's imperial city (however I have no idea what the state of it is nowdays).

My whole point is that what you, fundamentally, seem to object to is what the majority of players like; objective driven pvp.
I'm fully decked out in gear and skills meant for large scale combat. If I run after someone it's not to kill them, it's to chase them away from the objective, and my objective is to take the resource/keep, your objective is to kill said target.
I like the objective based pvp and I'd like more 20vs20 fights. But I would rather play with people I enjoy playing with, because of who they are as people, than to leave said group only to get more successful results in who can kill whom most effectively.

If youre not going up against players that often and spend lets say 85% of your combat time fighting npcs. Can you still call that pvp? Just because its being done in a pvp designated zone?

I don't know. Where do you draw the line?
Should you be allowed to ride to a location and still call it part of the pvp experience?
Making tactical decisions to give your alliance space and time to breath, isn't tactical decisions part of cyrodiil pvp?
How often do you have to be in combat in order to call it pvp, 100% of the time, 90%?
If you're dead while your friends are fighting, is that still pvp?
Isn't waiting for a camp, or to be ressed, a tactical decision you make in order to achieve your personal objective?
Why does it matter if I call that pvp?
The bottom line is that this is the hand we've been dealt (objective based pvp) and some people do their best to adapt (for example large scale pvp guild) to the enviornment.

montjie

Thoragaal wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We been enjoying this for 2 years now

I have much respect for you Derra and I hate your streaking a**
But, we all know that fighting outnumbered is the biggest issue (no fighting chance when it happens). I started pvp'ing about 1½ year ago, but I don't see any efforts from players getting together and fight it. All I see is people complaining like it's someone else responsability, so why doesn't EP and DC come together to fight it?
I mean if it means so much, then surely someone would start a guild and pick up people that wants to fight, no?

Maybe because most people in pvp don´t go there to fight other players but rather to pve for points?
It´s not like EP isn´t doing the same thing on sotha. Or DC doing it on sotha or shor.

The problem is a structural one where pve/pvdoor gives pvp rewards thus encouraging destructive behavior from the player side.

This is also the reason why the players still going to vivec on EP and DC side often times prefer to fight each other instead of AD.
Fighting AD is absolutely asinine as most of the factions players do actively avoid fighting unless they´re sure they´ll win. Otherwise they´ll sit inside a keep and siege you or wait in sneak until they´re sure the fight they engage into is already won.

So the problem isn´t only that you don´t have the people to start building such a guild in the first place (because most play easymode on a different campaign their faction dominates) - it´s also that the people you´d fight do everything to prevent you from actually having interesting fights.

You can´t fight people that do everything to not fight you - on terms that could be fun for both parties (see only healy healy tanky tanky builds with no dmg or they´re sneaking - the former aims to win the fight by surviving and outnumbering to kill anything - the latter aims to control fight conditions and only engages when they think they´ll win).

You can´t fix it on the player side (see also why don´t sotha EP come vivec to have action there).
The large majority choses the way of least resistance to get their carrot on a stick (in this case pvp rewards).
If a developer wants to have meaningful open world pvp either the map has to be designed differently to encourage the two weak factions to work together or they have to prevent the leading faction from being too dominant (dynamic population caps).

My personal sense is that you don't like the objective driven pvp-type of gameplay. Like for example, take a keep requires people, in order to not letting the keep be taken you need defense and pvp ensues.
But since the majority is pushing for keeps and taking scrolls, then it also shows that's what the majority wants.
I mean, each to their own thing.
If you wanna small scale, go ahead, but you probably should avoid those bigger groups. If that's what the majority of players want then surely you have no issues finding similar minded people to play against/with.
If someone else just wants to sit inside a keep and snipe, then that's their prerogative to do so. If they wanna scuddle away as soon as someone built for melee fights, then that players best bet is to run away.
If people want to avoid fighting and focus on the most strategic choices for them to make AP, then that's fine too, no? I know plenty of people with the reaction time of a potatoe. I like them as people, I like playing with them because of their personality. But it would be completely foolish of me to take said person into a 2vs2 scenario.

You can't force people to pvp the way you like to pvp.
To me it just sounds like you don't like the idea behind "crown an emperor by taking keeps" and would rather just pvp. There's duels outside of cyrodiil. There's BG's for small scale combat. There's imperial city (however I have no idea what the state of it is nowdays).

My whole point is that what you, fundamentally, seem to object to is what the majority of players like; objective driven pvp.
I'm fully decked out in gear and skills meant for large scale combat. If I run after someone it's not to kill them, it's to chase them away from the objective, and my objective is to take the resource/keep, your objective is to kill said target.
I like the objective based pvp and I'd like more 20vs20 fights. But I would rather play with people I enjoy playing with, because of who they are as people, than to leave said group only to get more successful results in who can kill whom most effectively.

If youre not going up against players that often and spend lets say 85% of your combat time fighting npcs. Can you still call that pvp? Just because its being done in a pvp designated zone?

I don't know. Where do you draw the line?
Should you be allowed to ride to a location and still call it part of the pvp experience?
Making tactical decisions to give your alliance space and time to breath, isn't tactical decisions part of cyrodiil pvp?
How often do you have to be in combat in order to call it pvp, 100% of the time, 90%?
If you're dead while your friends are fighting, is that still pvp?
Isn't waiting for a camp, or to be ressed, a tactical decision you make in order to achieve your personal objective?
Why does it matter if I call that pvp?
The bottom line is that this is the hand we've been dealt (objective based pvp) and some people do their best to adapt (for example large scale pvp guild) to the enviornment.

I feel my questions went a bit over your head so let me rephrase.
Do you think its still pvp when you spend a vast majority of your time in cyro fighting npcs and purposefully avoiding enemy players?

Yes/No

Derra

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We been enjoying this for 2 years now

I have much respect for you Derra and I hate your streaking a**
But, we all know that fighting outnumbered is the biggest issue (no fighting chance when it happens). I started pvp'ing about 1½ year ago, but I don't see any efforts from players getting together and fight it. All I see is people complaining like it's someone else responsability, so why doesn't EP and DC come together to fight it?
I mean if it means so much, then surely someone would start a guild and pick up people that wants to fight, no?

Maybe because most people in pvp don´t go there to fight other players but rather to pve for points?
It´s not like EP isn´t doing the same thing on sotha. Or DC doing it on sotha or shor.

The problem is a structural one where pve/pvdoor gives pvp rewards thus encouraging destructive behavior from the player side.

This is also the reason why the players still going to vivec on EP and DC side often times prefer to fight each other instead of AD.
Fighting AD is absolutely asinine as most of the factions players do actively avoid fighting unless they´re sure they´ll win. Otherwise they´ll sit inside a keep and siege you or wait in sneak until they´re sure the fight they engage into is already won.

So the problem isn´t only that you don´t have the people to start building such a guild in the first place (because most play easymode on a different campaign their faction dominates) - it´s also that the people you´d fight do everything to prevent you from actually having interesting fights.

You can´t fight people that do everything to not fight you - on terms that could be fun for both parties (see only healy healy tanky tanky builds with no dmg or they´re sneaking - the former aims to win the fight by surviving and outnumbering to kill anything - the latter aims to control fight conditions and only engages when they think they´ll win).

You can´t fix it on the player side (see also why don´t sotha EP come vivec to have action there).
The large majority choses the way of least resistance to get their carrot on a stick (in this case pvp rewards).
If a developer wants to have meaningful open world pvp either the map has to be designed differently to encourage the two weak factions to work together or they have to prevent the leading faction from being too dominant (dynamic population caps).

My personal sense is that you don't like the objective driven pvp-type of gameplay. Like for example, take a keep requires people, in order to not letting the keep be taken you need defense and pvp ensues.
But since the majority is pushing for keeps and taking scrolls, then it also shows that's what the majority wants.
I mean, each to their own thing.
If you wanna small scale, go ahead, but you probably should avoid those bigger groups. If that's what the majority of players want then surely you have no issues finding similar minded people to play against/with.
If someone else just wants to sit inside a keep and snipe, then that's their prerogative to do so. If they wanna scuddle away as soon as someone built for melee fights, then that players best bet is to run away.
If people want to avoid fighting and focus on the most strategic choices for them to make AP, then that's fine too, no? I know plenty of people with the reaction time of a potatoe. I like them as people, I like playing with them because of their personality. But it would be completely foolish of me to take said person into a 2vs2 scenario.

You can't force people to pvp the way you like to pvp.
To me it just sounds like you don't like the idea behind "crown an emperor by taking keeps" and would rather just pvp. There's duels outside of cyrodiil. There's BG's for small scale combat. There's imperial city (however I have no idea what the state of it is nowdays).

My whole point is that what you, fundamentally, seem to object to is what the majority of players like; objective driven pvp.
I'm fully decked out in gear and skills meant for large scale combat. If I run after someone it's not to kill them, it's to chase them away from the objective, and my objective is to take the resource/keep, your objective is to kill said target.
I like the objective based pvp and I'd like more 20vs20 fights. But I would rather play with people I enjoy playing with, because of who they are as people, than to leave said group only to get more successful results in who can kill whom most effectively.

And this is where you´re wrong.

I love objective based large scale pvp - in fact i like it so much that it´s almost everything i´ve played for the past 16 years. I started played that type of game in 2002 with dark age of camelot (then warhammer, aion, age of conan, whatever) - which eso tried to mimic but horribly failed due to bad design decisions on many different accounts (map, cc, groupsize, healing, roles, builds).

Imo the objectives should be the playground the pvp happens on and around. What happens in eso for some time is that AD views enemy players as a distraction from taking objectives.

It´s funny how you describe what i dislike very well in the last paragraph.
You don´t want objective driven pvp. Which is what i want.
You don´t care about the pvp part. Your goal is the objective - the pve. That´s what i think should not be rewarded as much as it currently is in eso - because that´s not pvp. It´s pve.

Also i don´t get the last sentence. I´ve only ever invited people i liked playing with and as a person in my guild. Which is why it never exceeded 10 active members. I don´t believe people that claim to maintain real friendly relationships with a group of 20 or more persons. That´s more of a purpose community than anything i´ve ever done.
So imo you´re doing exactly what you´re trying to criticize with your 20 ppl groups. Playing for results.

But ultimately i think the end all be all goal - even in objective based large scale pvp should be the pvp. Not the objective. That´s what development should focus around. Enabling pvp and ideally enabling everyone to participate in that pvp.
Eso isn´t doing that on the development side. And players on certain campaigns and factions are actively working against that.

killimandrosb16_ESO

youre right @Derra . The symptome of the problem is the 3 bars vs. 1 bar in the main campaigns. EU, its sotha ep 3 bars, vivec its ad 3 bars. IF the objective was to pvp, these factions would actively seek each others campaigns. Instead, they chose to pack up on each empty map to PvE. And being on that 1 bar side, is only enjoyable if you either are part of a small tower farming group or a solo diehard. In any way, the moment that 3 bar group catches up to you, youre done, so smallscalers have started to vanish too.
Let us look at the situation from another perspective; This actually means, if you are NOT part of one of the 3 bar odd time factions, your game time is dramatically reduced, or you are deliberately being excluded from end game content just because you chose the wrong faction. Where the 3 bar faction has 24 hours of available pvp play to enjoy, the 1 bar faction only has 3-4 hours of peak time play. Am I correct or not? Unless Zenimax considers the 1 bar population PART of the 3 bar factions game enjoyment.
This is a futile discussion which has been taking place for the last 2 years. You wont get 3 bar faction leaders like Saras at vivec to neither understand nor accept the problem His argument is that he plays when he can, and he has absolutey no respect for the 1 bar population. Its pure egocentric gameplay, which WILL and IS forcing more and more 1 bar faction players away from the game, not that I believe the 3 bar factions notice anyway. Its more silent around the empty keeps, but thats about it. In the end, they will wake up at that morning session only to find no keeps has been flipped during the day/night, and theres not much left to do. 2 days into vivec campaign EU, ad has a 10k lead...

Biro123

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

youre right @Derra . The symptome of the problem is the 3 bars vs. 1 bar in the main campaigns. EU, its sotha ep 3 bars, vivec its ad 3 bars. IF the objective was to pvp, these factions would actively seek each others campaigns. Instead, they chose to pack up on each empty map to PvE. And being on that 1 bar side, is only enjoyable if you either are part of a small tower farming group or a solo diehard. In any way, the moment that 3 bar group catches up to you, youre done, so smallscalers have started to vanish too.
Let us look at the situation from another perspective; This actually means, if you are NOT part of one of the 3 bar odd time factions, your game time is dramatically reduced, or you are deliberately being excluded from end game content just because you chose the wrong faction. Where the 3 bar faction has 24 hours of available pvp play to enjoy, the 1 bar faction only has 3-4 hours of peak time play. Am I correct or not? Unless Zenimax considers the 1 bar population PART of the 3 bar factions game enjoyment.
This is a futile discussion which has been taking place for the last 2 years. You wont get 3 bar faction leaders like Saras at vivec to neither understand nor accept the problem His argument is that he plays when he can, and he has absolutey no respect for the 1 bar population. Its pure egocentric gameplay, which WILL and IS forcing more and more 1 bar faction players away from the game, not that I believe the 3 bar factions notice anyway. Its more silent around the empty keeps, but thats about it. In the end, they will wake up at that morning session only to find no keeps has been flipped during the day/night, and theres not much left to do. 2 days into vivec campaign EU, ad has a 10k lead...

Couldn't have said it better myself!

SHADOW2KK

Master_Kas wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

My first character was AD, but I would NEVER PVP for that faction, since they seem to be doing everything they possibly can to stifle PVP.

Hmm. But I see you are DC. Which at least on vivec most of the tme is a mindless zerg too.

Ahh, but DC is the mindless zerg that looks for a fight, not the mindless zerg that does everything it can to avoid it.. A much more classy kind of mindlessness!

tbh, it only exists because its the only thing that shifts the AD faction-stack out of Ash every early-evening.. And you know how these things work - once it starts there's a momentum that's hard to stop.

BS. The DC megatrains always was here just at diffrent times compared to the AD one. Most of these (TDA, Legion/Hungry wolves) are members who was part of the same guilds before. Including old blackswords. They always used to stack up 40+ man trains zerging down the map in the old trueflame campaign (when azura was the main campaign).

I remember guilds going to Trueflame back then just to farm the blue megablob, and in that campaign there was hardly any EP or AD opposition.

BS on that one in regards to Legion, I was an officer in Legion for ages, and we were never in a blob, it was very rare if we had a full group up, 40+? lol, try 8/12 most of the time, the pugs following did not matter, they were just used as cannon fodder if they were around:P

Feanor

Faction stacking was always there, but it really started when ZOS decided to increase the offensive ticks regardless if it was PvP or PvDoor. As the Rewards for PvP are still somewhat lackluster and campaign scoring is so warped, most people are just here for the AP nowadays. A dynamic AP distribution would be my suggestion, having 3 tiers of AP pools that are tied to the attacker/defender ratio. The ticks as we have them now should be for a close to even ratio, halved ticks for a ratio of more than 1.5 in favor of the attacker, and close to zero for everything that is more than 2:1. Add in dynamic scoring that takes population into account, and people might play the map again.

Master_Kas

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

My first character was AD, but I would NEVER PVP for that faction, since they seem to be doing everything they possibly can to stifle PVP.

Hmm. But I see you are DC. Which at least on vivec most of the tme is a mindless zerg too.

Ahh, but DC is the mindless zerg that looks for a fight, not the mindless zerg that does everything it can to avoid it.. A much more classy kind of mindlessness!

tbh, it only exists because its the only thing that shifts the AD faction-stack out of Ash every early-evening.. And you know how these things work - once it starts there's a momentum that's hard to stop.

BS. The DC megatrains always was here just at diffrent times compared to the AD one. Most of these (TDA, Legion/Hungry wolves) are members who was part of the same guilds before. Including old blackswords. They always used to stack up 40+ man trains zerging down the map in the old trueflame campaign (when azura was the main campaign).

I remember guilds going to Trueflame back then just to farm the blue megablob, and in that campaign there was hardly any EP or AD opposition.

BS on that one in regards to Legion, I was an officer in Legion for ages, and we were never in a blob, it was very rare if we had a full group up, 40+? lol, try 8/12 most of the time, the pugs following did not matter, they were just used as cannon fodder if they were around:P

Haha then this was before your time or you're flat out lying.I had people in the guild whisper me they have 2 raids on x) But sure ^^

SHADOW2KK

Master_Kas wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

My first character was AD, but I would NEVER PVP for that faction, since they seem to be doing everything they possibly can to stifle PVP.

Hmm. But I see you are DC. Which at least on vivec most of the tme is a mindless zerg too.

Ahh, but DC is the mindless zerg that looks for a fight, not the mindless zerg that does everything it can to avoid it.. A much more classy kind of mindlessness!

tbh, it only exists because its the only thing that shifts the AD faction-stack out of Ash every early-evening.. And you know how these things work - once it starts there's a momentum that's hard to stop.

BS. The DC megatrains always was here just at diffrent times compared to the AD one. Most of these (TDA, Legion/Hungry wolves) are members who was part of the same guilds before. Including old blackswords. They always used to stack up 40+ man trains zerging down the map in the old trueflame campaign (when azura was the main campaign).

I remember guilds going to Trueflame back then just to farm the blue megablob, and in that campaign there was hardly any EP or AD opposition.

BS on that one in regards to Legion, I was an officer in Legion for ages, and we were never in a blob, it was very rare if we had a full group up, 40+? lol, try 8/12 most of the time, the pugs following did not matter, they were just used as cannon fodder if they were around:P

Haha then this was before your time or you're flat out lying.I had people in the guild whisper me they have 2 raids on x) But sure ^^

Naw man, I was in Legion from the beginning, and yes there were 2 raids on sometimes, the main raid, but that was rarely at full strength, and a secondary spec ops style small scale gank teams normally led by me or others, but never at max raids:P

Thoragaal

montjie wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We been enjoying this for 2 years now

I have much respect for you Derra and I hate your streaking a**
But, we all know that fighting outnumbered is the biggest issue (no fighting chance when it happens). I started pvp'ing about 1½ year ago, but I don't see any efforts from players getting together and fight it. All I see is people complaining like it's someone else responsability, so why doesn't EP and DC come together to fight it?
I mean if it means so much, then surely someone would start a guild and pick up people that wants to fight, no?

Maybe because most people in pvp don´t go there to fight other players but rather to pve for points?
It´s not like EP isn´t doing the same thing on sotha. Or DC doing it on sotha or shor.

The problem is a structural one where pve/pvdoor gives pvp rewards thus encouraging destructive behavior from the player side.

This is also the reason why the players still going to vivec on EP and DC side often times prefer to fight each other instead of AD.
Fighting AD is absolutely asinine as most of the factions players do actively avoid fighting unless they´re sure they´ll win. Otherwise they´ll sit inside a keep and siege you or wait in sneak until they´re sure the fight they engage into is already won.

So the problem isn´t only that you don´t have the people to start building such a guild in the first place (because most play easymode on a different campaign their faction dominates) - it´s also that the people you´d fight do everything to prevent you from actually having interesting fights.

You can´t fight people that do everything to not fight you - on terms that could be fun for both parties (see only healy healy tanky tanky builds with no dmg or they´re sneaking - the former aims to win the fight by surviving and outnumbering to kill anything - the latter aims to control fight conditions and only engages when they think they´ll win).

You can´t fix it on the player side (see also why don´t sotha EP come vivec to have action there).
The large majority choses the way of least resistance to get their carrot on a stick (in this case pvp rewards).
If a developer wants to have meaningful open world pvp either the map has to be designed differently to encourage the two weak factions to work together or they have to prevent the leading faction from being too dominant (dynamic population caps).

My personal sense is that you don't like the objective driven pvp-type of gameplay. Like for example, take a keep requires people, in order to not letting the keep be taken you need defense and pvp ensues.
But since the majority is pushing for keeps and taking scrolls, then it also shows that's what the majority wants.
I mean, each to their own thing.
If you wanna small scale, go ahead, but you probably should avoid those bigger groups. If that's what the majority of players want then surely you have no issues finding similar minded people to play against/with.
If someone else just wants to sit inside a keep and snipe, then that's their prerogative to do so. If they wanna scuddle away as soon as someone built for melee fights, then that players best bet is to run away.
If people want to avoid fighting and focus on the most strategic choices for them to make AP, then that's fine too, no? I know plenty of people with the reaction time of a potatoe. I like them as people, I like playing with them because of their personality. But it would be completely foolish of me to take said person into a 2vs2 scenario.

You can't force people to pvp the way you like to pvp.
To me it just sounds like you don't like the idea behind "crown an emperor by taking keeps" and would rather just pvp. There's duels outside of cyrodiil. There's BG's for small scale combat. There's imperial city (however I have no idea what the state of it is nowdays).

My whole point is that what you, fundamentally, seem to object to is what the majority of players like; objective driven pvp.
I'm fully decked out in gear and skills meant for large scale combat. If I run after someone it's not to kill them, it's to chase them away from the objective, and my objective is to take the resource/keep, your objective is to kill said target.
I like the objective based pvp and I'd like more 20vs20 fights. But I would rather play with people I enjoy playing with, because of who they are as people, than to leave said group only to get more successful results in who can kill whom most effectively.

If youre not going up against players that often and spend lets say 85% of your combat time fighting npcs. Can you still call that pvp? Just because its being done in a pvp designated zone?

I don't know. Where do you draw the line?
Should you be allowed to ride to a location and still call it part of the pvp experience?
Making tactical decisions to give your alliance space and time to breath, isn't tactical decisions part of cyrodiil pvp?
How often do you have to be in combat in order to call it pvp, 100% of the time, 90%?
If you're dead while your friends are fighting, is that still pvp?
Isn't waiting for a camp, or to be ressed, a tactical decision you make in order to achieve your personal objective?
Why does it matter if I call that pvp?
The bottom line is that this is the hand we've been dealt (objective based pvp) and some people do their best to adapt (for example large scale pvp guild) to the enviornment.

I feel my questions went a bit over your head so let me rephrase.
Do you think its still pvp when you spend a vast majority of your time in cyro fighting npcs and purposefully avoiding enemy players?

Yes/No

I don't think it went over my head, I said I don't know. And then I asked in return why it matters what I define as pvp
Because that's what it comes down to, if you wanna get into it; where do you, personally, draw the line.
I don't think in terms of "Now I'm gonna do some pvp". I think BG's are the closest thing to pure pvp we have, but even there it's mostly (not exclusively) about taking over an objective. I guess duels are pure Player vs Player. So in that sense, it's impossible to call the entire Cyrodiil-experience a pvp experience alone, because it's so much more than that.
It's both Yes and No, depending on how you view it.

Edit: I'm not trying to be difficult or avoid the question. I'm trying to make you understand how I view it.

Thoragaal

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We been enjoying this for 2 years now

I have much respect for you Derra and I hate your streaking a**
But, we all know that fighting outnumbered is the biggest issue (no fighting chance when it happens). I started pvp'ing about 1½ year ago, but I don't see any efforts from players getting together and fight it. All I see is people complaining like it's someone else responsability, so why doesn't EP and DC come together to fight it?
I mean if it means so much, then surely someone would start a guild and pick up people that wants to fight, no?

Maybe because most people in pvp don´t go there to fight other players but rather to pve for points?
It´s not like EP isn´t doing the same thing on sotha. Or DC doing it on sotha or shor.

The problem is a structural one where pve/pvdoor gives pvp rewards thus encouraging destructive behavior from the player side.

This is also the reason why the players still going to vivec on EP and DC side often times prefer to fight each other instead of AD.
Fighting AD is absolutely asinine as most of the factions players do actively avoid fighting unless they´re sure they´ll win. Otherwise they´ll sit inside a keep and siege you or wait in sneak until they´re sure the fight they engage into is already won.

So the problem isn´t only that you don´t have the people to start building such a guild in the first place (because most play easymode on a different campaign their faction dominates) - it´s also that the people you´d fight do everything to prevent you from actually having interesting fights.

You can´t fight people that do everything to not fight you - on terms that could be fun for both parties (see only healy healy tanky tanky builds with no dmg or they´re sneaking - the former aims to win the fight by surviving and outnumbering to kill anything - the latter aims to control fight conditions and only engages when they think they´ll win).

You can´t fix it on the player side (see also why don´t sotha EP come vivec to have action there).
The large majority choses the way of least resistance to get their carrot on a stick (in this case pvp rewards).
If a developer wants to have meaningful open world pvp either the map has to be designed differently to encourage the two weak factions to work together or they have to prevent the leading faction from being too dominant (dynamic population caps).

My personal sense is that you don't like the objective driven pvp-type of gameplay. Like for example, take a keep requires people, in order to not letting the keep be taken you need defense and pvp ensues.
But since the majority is pushing for keeps and taking scrolls, then it also shows that's what the majority wants.
I mean, each to their own thing.
If you wanna small scale, go ahead, but you probably should avoid those bigger groups. If that's what the majority of players want then surely you have no issues finding similar minded people to play against/with.
If someone else just wants to sit inside a keep and snipe, then that's their prerogative to do so. If they wanna scuddle away as soon as someone built for melee fights, then that players best bet is to run away.
If people want to avoid fighting and focus on the most strategic choices for them to make AP, then that's fine too, no? I know plenty of people with the reaction time of a potatoe. I like them as people, I like playing with them because of their personality. But it would be completely foolish of me to take said person into a 2vs2 scenario.

You can't force people to pvp the way you like to pvp.
To me it just sounds like you don't like the idea behind "crown an emperor by taking keeps" and would rather just pvp. There's duels outside of cyrodiil. There's BG's for small scale combat. There's imperial city (however I have no idea what the state of it is nowdays).

My whole point is that what you, fundamentally, seem to object to is what the majority of players like; objective driven pvp.
I'm fully decked out in gear and skills meant for large scale combat. If I run after someone it's not to kill them, it's to chase them away from the objective, and my objective is to take the resource/keep, your objective is to kill said target.
I like the objective based pvp and I'd like more 20vs20 fights. But I would rather play with people I enjoy playing with, because of who they are as people, than to leave said group only to get more successful results in who can kill whom most effectively.

And this is where you´re wrong.

I love objective based large scale pvp - in fact i like it so much that it´s almost everything i´ve played for the past 16 years. I started played that type of game in 2002 with dark age of camelot (then warhammer, aion, age of conan, whatever) - which eso tried to mimic but horribly failed due to bad design decisions on many different accounts (map, cc, groupsize, healing, roles, builds).

Imo the objectives should be the playground the pvp happens on and around. What happens in eso for some time is that AD views enemy players as a distraction from taking objectives.

It´s funny how you describe what i dislike very well in the last paragraph.
You don´t want objective driven pvp. Which is what i want.
You don´t care about the pvp part. Your goal is the objective - the pve. That´s what i think should not be rewarded as much as it currently is in eso - because that´s not pvp. It´s pve.

Also i don´t get the last sentence. I´ve only ever invited people i liked playing with and as a person in my guild. Which is why it never exceeded 10 active members. I don´t believe people that claim to maintain real friendly relationships with a group of 20 or more persons. That´s more of a purpose community than anything i´ve ever done.
So imo you´re doing exactly what you´re trying to criticize with your 20 ppl groups. Playing for results.

But ultimately i think the end all be all goal - even in objective based large scale pvp should be the pvp. Not the objective. That´s what development should focus around. Enabling pvp and ideally enabling everyone to participate in that pvp.
Eso isn´t doing that on the development side. And players on certain campaigns and factions are actively working against that.

Unfortunately I don't know those games. My player vs player experience (mainly) is from Quake 1/2/3 (capture the flag), WoW (Arathi Basin, which is like MOBA/ARTS) and a stupid game called Devilian.

"Imo the objectives should be the playground the pvp happens on and around. What happens in eso for some time is that AD views enemy players as a distraction from taking objectives."
Yeah, that's what I mean when I said "To me it just sounds like you don't like the idea behind "crown an emperor by taking keeps" and would rather just pvp". Your objective seems to be around to win the fight itself, the one that's taking place on your screen in that very moment, even if it would cost you (I'm exaggerating) 3 home keeps. Am I wrong?

My objective is to do what's best for the alliance, by playing the map, which is not necessarily always throwing myself at a zerg (opportunities goes missing), or stay at a resource for 30min in a never ending fight (wasting time), or me personally making loads of AP by porting to different keeps that's already UA (the help isn't always needed). There are tactical reasons (i.e. avoiding a fight) for the type of behavior I'm engaged in to further my goals (winning the campaign by taking keeps/scrolls/resources).

I'm not trying to critize anything or anyone, I'm trying to say that we're fundamentally playing for different reasons. If it weren't for the guild community I wouldn't even bother going into Cyrodiil. I most likely wouldn't be playing at all, since pvp is all I do in ESO nowdays.

But I don't get it. I haven't tried BGs really, why don't people (you included) go there for more pure forms of pvp?

killimandrosb16_ESO

Thoragaal wrote: »

I don't think it went over my head, I said I don't know. And then I asked in return why it matters what I define as pvp
Because that's what it comes down to, if you wanna get into it; where do you, personally, draw the line.
I don't think in terms of "Now I'm gonna do some pvp". I think BG's are the closest thing to pure pvp we have, but even there it's mostly (not exclusively) about taking over an objective. I guess duels are pure Player vs Player. So in that sense, it's impossible to call the entire Cyrodiil-experience a pvp experience alone, because it's so much more than that.
It's both Yes and No, depending on how you view it.

Edit: I'm not trying to be difficult or avoid the question. I'm trying to make you understand how I view it.

Thoragaal, its quite simple. PvP means player versus player. If there is no player involved in you fighting, its not PvP, then its PvE. If you twist it enough, you could also call it faction vs faction, as the NPC's you kill and the keep you flip is part of a faction.
The real question is, if its PvP if the player vs player ratio is 20vs1, or if its just a proof some are stupid. Like Bigboss rushing heads first into the enemy frontline when the numbers are even, is that PvP or PvE. The difference is slight.

Thoragaal

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

I don't think it went over my head, I said I don't know. And then I asked in return why it matters what I define as pvp
Because that's what it comes down to, if you wanna get into it; where do you, personally, draw the line.
I don't think in terms of "Now I'm gonna do some pvp". I think BG's are the closest thing to pure pvp we have, but even there it's mostly (not exclusively) about taking over an objective. I guess duels are pure Player vs Player. So in that sense, it's impossible to call the entire Cyrodiil-experience a pvp experience alone, because it's so much more than that.
It's both Yes and No, depending on how you view it.

Edit: I'm not trying to be difficult or avoid the question. I'm trying to make you understand how I view it.

Thoragaal, its quite simple. PvP means player versus player. If there is no player involved in you fighting, its not PvP, then its PvE. If you twist it enough, you could also call it faction vs faction, as the NPC's you kill and the keep you flip is part of a faction.
The real question is, if its PvP if the player vs player ratio is 20vs1, or if its just a proof some are stupid. Like Bigboss rushing heads first into the enemy frontline when the numbers are even, is that PvP or PvE. The difference is slight.

Yeah, and cyrodiil is both. As well as a horse simulator at times. As well as a mean for strategic thinking (inside and outside of combat). And a chance to have a bit of fun with friends. And much more. We're talking about Cyrodiil as a whole, right? Not just "I fight you, you fight me" part. Because in that case I REALLY don't understand why people complain about others instead of just doing BGs instead.

Because the Cyrodiil thing you can do something about, on a personal level. It's just a matter of if you're willing to do it or not, and you don't Need ZOS to do anything about the conditions.
I sure as hell don't wanna do it (I know how time consuming it can be) and I have full understanding why others might not wanna try it. But the tools are right there, it just seems like nobody is willing to use them in order to change things themselves and would rather tell others to stop doing what they enjoy doing.

If someone is just running between objectives, what ever they might be, I don't even dismount for them. Sometimes I even whisper them telling them to hide/run, because I know I have loads of ppl around me. I also usually tell people to NOT attack those players, because it's just not doing anything for anyone, it's just damn annoying to that solo player having to run all that way back again.
But if said person is trying to take a Keep/Resource/Scroll, or resurrect other people that will, then I will get off the mount to stop them. Even if it's 20vs1.

The point is that Cyrodiil isn't 100% pvp.
And how much pvp/pve/riding/reparing walls/commanding others/scouting you like to engage in differs from person to person. But everything is towards the goal of winning the campaign for your alliance, and is a part of the Cyrodiil experience. The the pvp part alone is just one aspect of it, but not the be-all and end-all.

elfantasmo

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We been enjoying this for 2 years now

I have much respect for you Derra and I hate your streaking a**
But, we all know that fighting outnumbered is the biggest issue (no fighting chance when it happens). I started pvp'ing about 1½ year ago, but I don't see any efforts from players getting together and fight it. All I see is people complaining like it's someone else responsability, so why doesn't EP and DC come together to fight it?
I mean if it means so much, then surely someone would start a guild and pick up people that wants to fight, no?

Maybe because most people in pvp don´t go there to fight other players but rather to pve for points?
It´s not like EP isn´t doing the same thing on sotha. Or DC doing it on sotha or shor.

The problem is a structural one where pve/pvdoor gives pvp rewards thus encouraging destructive behavior from the player side.

This is also the reason why the players still going to vivec on EP and DC side often times prefer to fight each other instead of AD.
Fighting AD is absolutely asinine as most of the factions players do actively avoid fighting unless they´re sure they´ll win. Otherwise they´ll sit inside a keep and siege you or wait in sneak until they´re sure the fight they engage into is already won.

So the problem isn´t only that you don´t have the people to start building such a guild in the first place (because most play easymode on a different campaign their faction dominates) - it´s also that the people you´d fight do everything to prevent you from actually having interesting fights.

You can´t fight people that do everything to not fight you - on terms that could be fun for both parties (see only healy healy tanky tanky builds with no dmg or they´re sneaking - the former aims to win the fight by surviving and outnumbering to kill anything - the latter aims to control fight conditions and only engages when they think they´ll win).

You can´t fix it on the player side (see also why don´t sotha EP come vivec to have action there).
The large majority choses the way of least resistance to get their carrot on a stick (in this case pvp rewards).
If a developer wants to have meaningful open world pvp either the map has to be designed differently to encourage the two weak factions to work together or they have to prevent the leading faction from being too dominant (dynamic population caps).

My personal sense is that you don't like the objective driven pvp-type of gameplay. Like for example, take a keep requires people, in order to not letting the keep be taken you need defense and pvp ensues.
But since the majority is pushing for keeps and taking scrolls, then it also shows that's what the majority wants.
I mean, each to their own thing.
If you wanna small scale, go ahead, but you probably should avoid those bigger groups. If that's what the majority of players want then surely you have no issues finding similar minded people to play against/with.
If someone else just wants to sit inside a keep and snipe, then that's their prerogative to do so. If they wanna scuddle away as soon as someone built for melee fights, then that players best bet is to run away.
If people want to avoid fighting and focus on the most strategic choices for them to make AP, then that's fine too, no? I know plenty of people with the reaction time of a potatoe. I like them as people, I like playing with them because of their personality. But it would be completely foolish of me to take said person into a 2vs2 scenario.

You can't force people to pvp the way you like to pvp.
To me it just sounds like you don't like the idea behind "crown an emperor by taking keeps" and would rather just pvp. There's duels outside of cyrodiil. There's BG's for small scale combat. There's imperial city (however I have no idea what the state of it is nowdays).

My whole point is that what you, fundamentally, seem to object to is what the majority of players like; objective driven pvp.
I'm fully decked out in gear and skills meant for large scale combat. If I run after someone it's not to kill them, it's to chase them away from the objective, and my objective is to take the resource/keep, your objective is to kill said target.
I like the objective based pvp and I'd like more 20vs20 fights. But I would rather play with people I enjoy playing with, because of who they are as people, than to leave said group only to get more successful results in who can kill whom most effectively.

And this is where you´re wrong.

I love objective based large scale pvp - in fact i like it so much that it´s almost everything i´ve played for the past 16 years. I started played that type of game in 2002 with dark age of camelot (then warhammer, aion, age of conan, whatever) - which eso tried to mimic but horribly failed due to bad design decisions on many different accounts (map, cc, groupsize, healing, roles, builds).

Imo the objectives should be the playground the pvp happens on and around. What happens in eso for some time is that AD views enemy players as a distraction from taking objectives.

It´s funny how you describe what i dislike very well in the last paragraph.
You don´t want objective driven pvp. Which is what i want.
You don´t care about the pvp part. Your goal is the objective - the pve. That´s what i think should not be rewarded as much as it currently is in eso - because that´s not pvp. It´s pve.

Also i don´t get the last sentence. I´ve only ever invited people i liked playing with and as a person in my guild. Which is why it never exceeded 10 active members. I don´t believe people that claim to maintain real friendly relationships with a group of 20 or more persons. That´s more of a purpose community than anything i´ve ever done.
So imo you´re doing exactly what you´re trying to criticize with your 20 ppl groups. Playing for results.

But ultimately i think the end all be all goal - even in objective based large scale pvp should be the pvp. Not the objective. That´s what development should focus around. Enabling pvp and ideally enabling everyone to participate in that pvp.
Eso isn´t doing that on the development side. And players on certain campaigns and factions are actively working against that.

Unfortunately I don't know those games. My player vs player experience (mainly) is from Quake 1/2/3 (capture the flag), WoW (Arathi Basin, which is like MOBA/ARTS) and a stupid game called Devilian.

"Imo the objectives should be the playground the pvp happens on and around. What happens in eso for some time is that AD views enemy players as a distraction from taking objectives."
Yeah, that's what I mean when I said "To me it just sounds like you don't like the idea behind "crown an emperor by taking keeps" and would rather just pvp". Your objective seems to be around to win the fight itself, the one that's taking place on your screen in that very moment, even if it would cost you (I'm exaggerating) 3 home keeps. Am I wrong?

My objective is to do what's best for the alliance, by playing the map, which is not necessarily always throwing myself at a zerg (opportunities goes missing), or stay at a resource for 30min in a never ending fight (wasting time), or me personally making loads of AP by porting to different keeps that's already UA (the help isn't always needed). There are tactical reasons (i.e. avoiding a fight) for the type of behavior I'm engaged in to further my goals (winning the campaign by taking keeps/scrolls/resources).

I'm not trying to critize anything or anyone, I'm trying to say that we're fundamentally playing for different reasons. If it weren't for the guild community I wouldn't even bother going into Cyrodiil. I most likely wouldn't be playing at all, since pvp is all I do in ESO nowdays.

But I don't get it. I haven't tried BGs really, why don't people (you included) go there for more pure forms of pvp?

Im sorry but I don’t think you are really listening to what people are saying, you might be reading it but are you listening? Objective based pvp is fine we all love it, no issue there, so long as the population is equal and FAIR/ OR there are mechanics in place to dynamically adjust the handicap. I don’t want to write a wall of text so let me say this.

1. I see you personally, you on a daily basis with your guild stacking on a resource with 30 AD actively SIEGING a tower for lets say a group of 3 maximum 6 enemies (ad/dc whatever). You do this, it is undeniable, so do not tell me about strategically organising your raid based on the objective.
2. If you and your guild were to play your definition of objective based pvp against an equal amount of enemies lets say 30v30v30 as an example you would get facerolled all day. You would never capture any scroll and definitely not emp if the population was equal.

2. Is the main issue. You are capping the map everyday by exploiting an advantage in numerical power. Period. Thus all keeps are yellow by 10am, all scrolls capped and emp. Everyone logged of raging so you need only to turtle with emp and 6 scroll buff. Then Jonny the smallscaler voted out of his head goes to idk ROE farm for a little light hearted 1vx. Meanwhile there is nothing else for you to cap so ensues ROE FARM UA UNITY DESTROY PURPLE RATS, the entire ad pop zergs Jonny (refer point number 1). IF however Jonny is clever and sees you he kites.... NO SAYS JONNY STUCK IN COMBAT FFS!!! At which point said Zerg immediately mounts and proceeds to chase Jonny to brindle, finally kills him and obv after a job well done incorporating much skill and situational awareness Jonny received more tbags than a f Indian tea factory.

And before the defensive start to show I am not singling anyone out or naming anything. But this is a cultural issue which many people are contributing too. How do we fix it i dont know but at least have the decency to acknowledge the issue which is pretty much black and white.

killimandrosb16_ESO

Thoragaal wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

I don't think it went over my head, I said I don't know. And then I asked in return why it matters what I define as pvp
Because that's what it comes down to, if you wanna get into it; where do you, personally, draw the line.
I don't think in terms of "Now I'm gonna do some pvp". I think BG's are the closest thing to pure pvp we have, but even there it's mostly (not exclusively) about taking over an objective. I guess duels are pure Player vs Player. So in that sense, it's impossible to call the entire Cyrodiil-experience a pvp experience alone, because it's so much more than that.
It's both Yes and No, depending on how you view it.

Edit: I'm not trying to be difficult or avoid the question. I'm trying to make you understand how I view it.

Thoragaal, its quite simple. PvP means player versus player. If there is no player involved in you fighting, its not PvP, then its PvE. If you twist it enough, you could also call it faction vs faction, as the NPC's you kill and the keep you flip is part of a faction.
The real question is, if its PvP if the player vs player ratio is 20vs1, or if its just a proof some are stupid. Like Bigboss rushing heads first into the enemy frontline when the numbers are even, is that PvP or PvE. The difference is slight.

Yeah, and cyrodiil is both. As well as a horse simulator at times. As well as a mean for strategic thinking (inside and outside of combat). And a chance to have a bit of fun with friends. And much more. We're talking about Cyrodiil as a whole, right? Not just "I fight you, you fight me" part. Because in that case I REALLY don't understand why people complain about others instead of just doing BGs instead.

Because the Cyrodiil thing you can do something about, on a personal level. It's just a matter of if you're willing to do it or not, and you don't Need ZOS to do anything about the conditions.
I sure as hell don't wanna do it (I know how time consuming it can be) and I have full understanding why others might not wanna try it. But the tools are right there, it just seems like nobody is willing to use them in order to change things themselves and would rather tell others to stop doing what they enjoy doing.

If someone is just running between objectives, what ever they might be, I don't even dismount for them. Sometimes I even whisper them telling them to hide/run, because I know I have loads of ppl around me. I also usually tell people to NOT attack those players, because it's just not doing anything for anyone, it's just damn annoying to that solo player having to run all that way back again.
But if said person is trying to take a Keep/Resource/Scroll, or resurrect other people that will, then I will get off the mount to stop them. Even if it's 20vs1.

The point is that Cyrodiil isn't 100% pvp.
And how much pvp/pve/riding/reparing walls/commanding others/scouting you like to engage in differs from person to person. But everything is towards the goal of winning the campaign for your alliance, and is a part of the Cyrodiil experience. The the pvp part alone is just one aspect of it, but not the be-all and end-all.

What I get from this is; if you dont like the disparicy in population, well GTFO, because thats how I like the game. But what you dont understand is your way of playing is ruining your own enjoyment. Because what is left now, apart from the 2-3 hours of extreme lag (you probably dont play cyrodiil at that time anyway, because numbers are even) where the factions are even, is either absolutely empty lakes apart from your own faction (true for a very large part of the 24 hour cycle) or the PBAoE teams which will show up occationally to bomb you. Unless you really find it enjoyable to PvE an empty map for years, thats the situation today. At the same time, casuals like myself are given 2 options; either we join your faction, hence increasing the problem, BUT at the same time are given the possibility to play cyrodiil longer than the 2 hours of mad lag, OR we leave. The 2 low pop factions dont have the means to do anything about it, as you claim. How do you suppose ep or dc can INCREASE the numbers at the odd times, when the situation is the opposite. Were bleeding pugs and casuals. Our numbers are going down, not up, meanwhile YOUR numbers are increasing. Why is that? Why is it your faction steadily grows while the other faction dies? And do you think it is healty for the cyrodiil scenario as a whole?

OFFL1MIT

Those who cry and complain are:
Kids 08-16 years old brats
People who have nothing to do in their life, but play eso all day everyday and cry through their armpits.

I remember us DC winning campaign all the time
Then reds before, I remember Brohm all the time going for emp, was fun times to fight against them.
So every faction has it turns, to be fair it's not so bad. I enjoy playing at hard difficulty and putting my self to the test.

The only problem is perfomance issue. You basicly cant defend keep if more than 50 people ar coming to take a keep. If you port you get disconnected and you have to wait until everything cools down and this become more and more lately.
I just wish people would remember that this is just a game, we all players, we're fighting for nothing and we shouldn't be angry at eachother.

killimandrosb16_ESO

OFFL1MIT wrote: »

Those who cry and complain are:
Kids 08-16 years old brats
People who have nothing to do in their life, but play eso all day everyday and cry through their armpits.

I remember us DC winning campaign all the time
Then reds before, I remember Brohm all the time going for emp, was fun times to fight against them.
So every faction has it turns, to be fair it's not so bad. I enjoy playing at hard difficulty and putting my self to the test.

The only problem is perfomance issue. You basicly cant defend keep if more than 50 people ar coming to take a keep. If you port you get disconnected and you have to wait until everything cools down and this become more and more lately.
I just wish people would remember that this is just a game, we all players, we're fighting for nothing and we shouldn't be angry at eachother.

Im not sure if youre winding your opinion through your ass or if serious, but in EU, ad has won vivec campaign every time the last 2 years+, and ep has won sotha campaign same period except the pvp event thingy in june. Now at this moment ad is leading by 15k 3/4 days into the new campaign. This leades me to believe you are either playing ad on vivec or ep on sotha. Apart from the scoring, the population issue is also the major reason to why prime time is so *** bad with lag. Because ad on vivec and ep on sotha prime time start losing their keeps, and it always ends up with all players of all 3 factions somewhere around the 5-6 scrolls they cling on to close to alessia for ad and arrius for ep. THIS is what causes the lag. So the lag is a DIRECT consequence of the earlier 3vs 1 bar play at inconvenient times. Is this your idea of enjoying hard difficulty and placing yourself to the test or is it just the same way I find it, just ***. Having to plan 3-4 sec. ahead to pull off any ability.
No and yes. I am angry, because I enjoyed the game and cyrodiil the way it was when fights were spread around the map, when the guy I ressed prime time isnt zerging me down off-peak hours, before the crap performances starting to kick in, before the scroll trolling because people give up on the campaign score anyway, before the off time emperors bumrush the map making it impossible to play anything than their alliance unless you like fishing in cyrodiil. The performance issue is directly connected to how the campaign is played these days and why all factions are packing up at the same spot inevitably at prime time PBAoE bombing ecause some PvE heros need their daily NPC kill hit.

Biro123

The only playable time nowadays for me is 5-7 pm.
AD still outnumber all others, and have all the scrolls and emp bonuses, but it's starting to even out, and the primetime lag hasn't yet kicked in.

I used to play in the morning or during lunchtime, but there's no point.
I also used to care about the campaign score, but there's no point knowing that whatever I do will have no impact on it.

It is absolutely pointless arguing with these people. They either refuse to see or simply don't understand that they are slowly destroying the PvP game. Same with those who play twinks to go noobstomping on Kyne.
These people won't change. They haven't in the last 3 years, so why would they now?
Imho, it's all on Zos for allowing their game to reward these game-destroying activities.
But then if they haven't done anything about it in 3 years.....
Only think keeping PVP alive at the mo is the lack of a credible alternative imho...

Derra

Thoragaal wrote: »

But I don't get it. I haven't tried BGs really, why don't people (you included) go there for more pure forms of pvp?

Because like i said - i like open world large scale pvp.

Playing for scoreboard or against guards is just not pvp.

You know i like taking keeps, crowning emps, taking scrolls - when the main opponent in doing that is actual other players. Not doors, npcs and flipping flags.
That´s the difference.

Biro123

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

But I don't get it. I haven't tried BGs really, why don't people (you included) go there for more pure forms of pvp?

Because like i said - i like open world large scale pvp.

Playing for scoreboard or against guards is just not pvp.

You know i like taking keeps, crowning emps, taking scrolls - when the main opponent in doing that is actual other players. Not doors, npcs and flipping flags.
That´s the difference.

Same here.

The whole purpose, imho, for keeps, flags, objectives etc. in large, open PVP areas are to act as focal points for PVP to happen. Something to draw the players in and give them a reason to fight and a place to find enemies.
They also create 'soft lanes' of conflict between them too.
I don't think the purpose was ever to just repeatedly do the objectives *without* the PVP part.

Thoragaal

elfantasmo wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

We been enjoying this for 2 years now

I have much respect for you Derra and I hate your streaking a**
But, we all know that fighting outnumbered is the biggest issue (no fighting chance when it happens). I started pvp'ing about 1½ year ago, but I don't see any efforts from players getting together and fight it. All I see is people complaining like it's someone else responsability, so why doesn't EP and DC come together to fight it?
I mean if it means so much, then surely someone would start a guild and pick up people that wants to fight, no?

Maybe because most people in pvp don´t go there to fight other players but rather to pve for points?
It´s not like EP isn´t doing the same thing on sotha. Or DC doing it on sotha or shor.

The problem is a structural one where pve/pvdoor gives pvp rewards thus encouraging destructive behavior from the player side.

This is also the reason why the players still going to vivec on EP and DC side often times prefer to fight each other instead of AD.
Fighting AD is absolutely asinine as most of the factions players do actively avoid fighting unless they´re sure they´ll win. Otherwise they´ll sit inside a keep and siege you or wait in sneak until they´re sure the fight they engage into is already won.

So the problem isn´t only that you don´t have the people to start building such a guild in the first place (because most play easymode on a different campaign their faction dominates) - it´s also that the people you´d fight do everything to prevent you from actually having interesting fights.

You can´t fight people that do everything to not fight you - on terms that could be fun for both parties (see only healy healy tanky tanky builds with no dmg or they´re sneaking - the former aims to win the fight by surviving and outnumbering to kill anything - the latter aims to control fight conditions and only engages when they think they´ll win).

You can´t fix it on the player side (see also why don´t sotha EP come vivec to have action there).
The large majority choses the way of least resistance to get their carrot on a stick (in this case pvp rewards).
If a developer wants to have meaningful open world pvp either the map has to be designed differently to encourage the two weak factions to work together or they have to prevent the leading faction from being too dominant (dynamic population caps).

My personal sense is that you don't like the objective driven pvp-type of gameplay. Like for example, take a keep requires people, in order to not letting the keep be taken you need defense and pvp ensues.
But since the majority is pushing for keeps and taking scrolls, then it also shows that's what the majority wants.
I mean, each to their own thing.
If you wanna small scale, go ahead, but you probably should avoid those bigger groups. If that's what the majority of players want then surely you have no issues finding similar minded people to play against/with.
If someone else just wants to sit inside a keep and snipe, then that's their prerogative to do so. If they wanna scuddle away as soon as someone built for melee fights, then that players best bet is to run away.
If people want to avoid fighting and focus on the most strategic choices for them to make AP, then that's fine too, no? I know plenty of people with the reaction time of a potatoe. I like them as people, I like playing with them because of their personality. But it would be completely foolish of me to take said person into a 2vs2 scenario.

You can't force people to pvp the way you like to pvp.
To me it just sounds like you don't like the idea behind "crown an emperor by taking keeps" and would rather just pvp. There's duels outside of cyrodiil. There's BG's for small scale combat. There's imperial city (however I have no idea what the state of it is nowdays).

My whole point is that what you, fundamentally, seem to object to is what the majority of players like; objective driven pvp.
I'm fully decked out in gear and skills meant for large scale combat. If I run after someone it's not to kill them, it's to chase them away from the objective, and my objective is to take the resource/keep, your objective is to kill said target.
I like the objective based pvp and I'd like more 20vs20 fights. But I would rather play with people I enjoy playing with, because of who they are as people, than to leave said group only to get more successful results in who can kill whom most effectively.

And this is where you´re wrong.

I love objective based large scale pvp - in fact i like it so much that it´s almost everything i´ve played for the past 16 years. I started played that type of game in 2002 with dark age of camelot (then warhammer, aion, age of conan, whatever) - which eso tried to mimic but horribly failed due to bad design decisions on many different accounts (map, cc, groupsize, healing, roles, builds).

Imo the objectives should be the playground the pvp happens on and around. What happens in eso for some time is that AD views enemy players as a distraction from taking objectives.

It´s funny how you describe what i dislike very well in the last paragraph.
You don´t want objective driven pvp. Which is what i want.
You don´t care about the pvp part. Your goal is the objective - the pve. That´s what i think should not be rewarded as much as it currently is in eso - because that´s not pvp. It´s pve.

Also i don´t get the last sentence. I´ve only ever invited people i liked playing with and as a person in my guild. Which is why it never exceeded 10 active members. I don´t believe people that claim to maintain real friendly relationships with a group of 20 or more persons. That´s more of a purpose community than anything i´ve ever done.
So imo you´re doing exactly what you´re trying to criticize with your 20 ppl groups. Playing for results.

But ultimately i think the end all be all goal - even in objective based large scale pvp should be the pvp. Not the objective. That´s what development should focus around. Enabling pvp and ideally enabling everyone to participate in that pvp.
Eso isn´t doing that on the development side. And players on certain campaigns and factions are actively working against that.

Unfortunately I don't know those games. My player vs player experience (mainly) is from Quake 1/2/3 (capture the flag), WoW (Arathi Basin, which is like MOBA/ARTS) and a stupid game called Devilian.

"Imo the objectives should be the playground the pvp happens on and around. What happens in eso for some time is that AD views enemy players as a distraction from taking objectives."
Yeah, that's what I mean when I said "To me it just sounds like you don't like the idea behind "crown an emperor by taking keeps" and would rather just pvp". Your objective seems to be around to win the fight itself, the one that's taking place on your screen in that very moment, even if it would cost you (I'm exaggerating) 3 home keeps. Am I wrong?

My objective is to do what's best for the alliance, by playing the map, which is not necessarily always throwing myself at a zerg (opportunities goes missing), or stay at a resource for 30min in a never ending fight (wasting time), or me personally making loads of AP by porting to different keeps that's already UA (the help isn't always needed). There are tactical reasons (i.e. avoiding a fight) for the type of behavior I'm engaged in to further my goals (winning the campaign by taking keeps/scrolls/resources).

I'm not trying to critize anything or anyone, I'm trying to say that we're fundamentally playing for different reasons. If it weren't for the guild community I wouldn't even bother going into Cyrodiil. I most likely wouldn't be playing at all, since pvp is all I do in ESO nowdays.

But I don't get it. I haven't tried BGs really, why don't people (you included) go there for more pure forms of pvp?

Im sorry but I don’t think you are really listening to what people are saying, you might be reading it but are you listening? Objective based pvp is fine we all love it, no issue there, so long as the population is equal and FAIR/ OR there are mechanics in place to dynamically adjust the handicap. I don’t want to write a wall of text so let me say this.

You don't need to write a wall of text. I'm saying our objectives are different; My objective is to take a keep/resource/win the campaign, your objective is more towards pure pvp (which is a sub-part of Cyrodiil as a whole).

1. I see you personally, you on a daily basis with your guild stacking on a resource with 30 AD actively SIEGING a tower for lets say a group of 3 maximum 6 enemies (ad/dc whatever). You do this, it is undeniable, so do not tell me about strategically organising your raid based on the objective.[/quote]
If you go take resources, which cuts off keeps eventually, we will try to kill you. If you run away in circles inside a tower we will siege the tower. If the resources had nothing to do with being able to port to/from/between keeps and gave no points (not AP) I wouldn't bother.

elfantasmo wrote: »

2. If you and your guild were to play your definition of objective based pvp against an equal amount of enemies lets say 30v30v30 as an example you would get facerolled all day. You would never capture any scroll and definitely not emp if the population was equal.

Yeah, in the beginning, probably. It's not like most AD have as much experience playing against uneven odds as DC and EP. But I don't see what that has to do with the subject, nobody is talking about which faction/guild/group is the better.

elfantasmo wrote: »

2. Is the main issue. You are capping the map everyday by exploiting an advantage in numerical power. Period. Thus all keeps are yellow by 10am, all scrolls capped and emp. Everyone logged of raging so you need only to turtle with emp and 6 scroll buff. Then Jonny the smallscaler voted out of his head goes to idk ROE farm for a little light hearted 1vx. Meanwhile there is nothing else for you to cap so ensues ROE FARM UA UNITY DESTROY PURPLE RATS, the entire ad pop zergs Jonny (refer point number 1). IF however Jonny is clever and sees you he kites.... NO SAYS JONNY STUCK IN COMBAT FFS!!! At which point said Zerg immediately mounts and proceeds to chase Jonny to brindle, finally kills him and obv after a job well done incorporating much skill and situational awareness Jonny received more tbags than a f Indian tea factory.

To me an exploit is when something that shouldn't be in the game, somehow is there anyway by mistake, and people abuse it. For example animation canceling in early ESO was a debate if it was an exploit or not untill ZOS said it was intentional. Just like it can be said about the "kangaroo-jump" some people do, it can be debated if it's meant to be/or not meant to be but ultimately it comes down to what ZOS says about it.

elfantasmo wrote: »

And before the defensive start to show I am not singling anyone out or naming anything. But this is a cultural issue which many people are contributing too. How do we fix it i dont know but at least have the decency to acknowledge the issue which is pretty much black and white.

I would acknowledge that there's an issue too. But my belief is that it can be solved on a level of personal responsability (because I've seen it done plenty of times before); i.e. starting a guild to unite people. And during these 1½ years that I've been in Cyrodiil I have seen no efforts being made from the opposing factions. Knowing that ZOS isn't changing the rules for Cyrodiil should further encourage it. But like I previously said, I don't think our objectives and fundamental reasons for playing are the same, thus you feel like it's someone elses responsability to make sure you get to play the way you enjoy it.

The guild (you know which one I mean) was started with a small number of people, in an effort to counter "cheaters". It has been here since the beginning of the game and "Rome wasn't built in a day". Through these years it's picked up people that's only joined a few times and then disappeared. It's had people that left for the opposing faction. People have left because of personal reasons. People have left because of internal issues between players. People have left because the quality isn't up to their personal preference.
And I can guarantee you that if you wanted to counter it (on a level of personal responsability), you could do it, if you gave the guild enough time and patience to grow.

Biro123

Thoragaal wrote: »

I would acknowledge that there's an issue too. But my belief is that it can be solved on a level of personal responsability .

See, now this is where we completely disagree.
When there are only 30 people available to PVP at that time of day and 24 of them are all on one faction - the ONLY solution is to even up the sides.. ie for 14 of those 24 to move to other faction.

So that 'personal responsibility' lies entirely with them, NOT with the remaining 6 who are already doing the right thing by not giving up and not switching to the winning faction.

We've seen over the last 3 years, that you and yours simply will not accept that personal responsibility - so its useless to even talk about it.

killimandrosb16_ESO

Biro123 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

I would acknowledge that there's an issue too. But my belief is that it can be solved on a level of personal responsability .

See, now this is where we completely disagree.
When there are only 30 people available to PVP at that time of day and 24 of them are all on one faction - the ONLY solution is to even up the sides.. ie for 14 of those 24 to move to other faction.

So that 'personal responsibility' lies entirely with them, NOT with the remaining 6 who are already doing the right thing by not giving up and not switching to the winning faction.

We've seen over the last 3 years, that you and yours simply will not accept that personal responsibility - so its useless to even talk about it.

I agree. The responsibility for grouping up when theres less than 5-6 people of one faction in the lakes, is not theirs to take. The responsibility lies unconditionally within the group which has 3 bars (and if I count correct thats about 60+ players at least) unless the intention IS to PvE and the condition is to do so without being interfered by PvP. Theres 3 bars EP at sotha sil, and theres 3 bars AD at vivec. If any of these factions had any intentions to PvP and not abuse a poor functioning ap system given by Wrobel they would seek each other. As it is now they decide to peacefully farm ap, the ap the 1 bar factions does not have the same availability to, unless they also chose the pve faction. Its pretty harsh towards the members of the low pop faction, and is perfectly demonstrated by the vpe factions steadily grow in numbers as casuals discover the disparicy and how they by being of the wrong faction is denied the same rewards the numberous faction is given. I have asked a response several times to why the system so clearly favours the faction with the most numbers when it comes to rewards and casual gameplay while the intentions from the developers supposedly is the opposite, unless Wrobel actually INTENTS Cyrodiil to be a mean for low level PvE players to gain enough gear from golden to later do trials and end game PvE challenges.

Thoragaal

Biro123 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

I would acknowledge that there's an issue too. But my belief is that it can be solved on a level of personal responsability .

See, now this is where we completely disagree.
When there are only 30 people available to PVP at that time of day and 24 of them are all on one faction - the ONLY solution is to even up the sides.. ie for 14 of those 24 to move to other faction.

So that 'personal responsibility' lies entirely with them, NOT with the remaining 6 who are already doing the right thing by not giving up and not switching to the winning faction.

We've seen over the last 3 years, that you and yours simply will not accept that personal responsibility - so its useless to even talk about it.

Where you say "[...]when there are only 30 people available[...]" that's why I included that it takes time to build a guild. Because it's not only 30 people over a 4 years period of time 24h/day. You have people that don't bother going in to Cyrodiil because they don't like the odds (I've been there myself). There are people that change character to a different faction. There are silent people just waiting in sneak to at some point go for something that's giving them AP. And there are plenty of more scenarios to why you don't see these people.
But if they were in a guild, they would also see in the guild roster if there's more people online and incentivise them to join too.
If they were in a guild and in a group they would be encouraged to help out to attack/defend a keep, knowing the odds aren't as terrible as it looks. A positive spin creates more positive opportunities.
Knowing how many people that will help, at bare minimum, incentivises people to attack/defend when they know the odds are good enough.
Even if we do disagree on the odds for success of creating a guild, with the intent of winning the campaign, I would still like to see someone actually try it. Because I know from (20 years gaming online and 20 years of studying psychology) experience that it works, but I've seen no true and wholehearted attempts being made to make a change on their own to actually battle it.

Invite that guy that's currently only playing in the evening - who knows, maybe he's just not logging on because he doesn't like the odds in the morning/afternoon.
Invite that guy that's completely new to pvp - maybe a couple of months he'll be great.
Get people that's not usually into pvp to try it - maybe they will enjoy it.
Some people will join once and never go back. Some people will try it a few times before they disappear. Some people will show up sporadically. But there are 500 spots available in a guild and there's no reason to keep it closed for only "good enough" ones.

Do it Biro. DO IT! Go! Chop chop! Be the great leader you have the potential to be and lead those who can't tell the difference between their ass and their backbar!

Edit: I just noticed you can only play 5-7pm. You make a guild, have a few "officers" that you MAKE SURE are on the same page, so you deligate the responsability for when you're not there. Make the goals clear for everyone. Keep a few but strics rules.

Derra

Thoragaal wrote: »

Invite that guy that's currently only playing in the evening - who knows, maybe he's just not logging on because he doesn't like the odds in the morning/afternoon.
Invite that guy that's completely new to pvp - maybe a couple of months he'll be great.
Get people that's not usually into pvp to try it - maybe they will enjoy it.
Some people will join once and never go back. Some people will try it a few times before they disappear. Some people will show up sporadically. But there are 500 spots available in a guild and there's no reason to keep it closed for only "good enough" ones.

I love how you´re completely contradicting yourself here by having stated earlier that you enjoyed playing with a group of friends.
What you´re describing is 100% the opposite of that. You describing building a guild purely for results.

Also this still doesn´t adress the main problem - people (on all sides) don´t want to fight for the most part. Why don´t you AD go to sotha to fight even number EP there?
Because you don´t want to actually fight on even odds. Once you accept that this is true (maybe not for you but for the large majority of people you play with) you´ll realize that everything that you´re telling others here is nonsense.

Feanor

Why don´t you AD go to sotha to fight even number EP there?

@Derra

With the numbers EP currently sports there the server would grind to a halt. You have a point though - both Vivec AD and Sotha Sil EP have no interest in an evened out population.

Qbiken

Solution:

Migrate EP from Sotha and AD from Vivec to Shor

mague

montjie wrote: »

I feel my questions went a bit over your head so let me rephrase.
Do you think its still pvp when you spend a vast majority of your time in cyro fighting npcs and purposefully avoiding enemy players?

Yes/No

It is. I did both. Master Angler and PvE like dungeon achivements and quests etc. and the siege/defend/scroll game.

The angler, shards and dungeon boss game is sometimes much deeper PvP then the "official" scrolls/emp game. There is a lot of gank and snipe there. They want to lure you out, trick you into something or plain get you from the mount at any cost. Been playing games with a sniper in an AD outpost for an hour or so. He killed single NPC and vanished to lure me out while i sneaked around and tried to get an arrow into him I am not a NB sniper though and he left eventually. You cant trust anyone because any single player your own faction might relog into his sniper to get you. Yes, it is PvP.

Biro123

Thoragaal wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

I would acknowledge that there's an issue too. But my belief is that it can be solved on a level of personal responsability .

See, now this is where we completely disagree.
When there are only 30 people available to PVP at that time of day and 24 of them are all on one faction - the ONLY solution is to even up the sides.. ie for 14 of those 24 to move to other faction.

So that 'personal responsibility' lies entirely with them, NOT with the remaining 6 who are already doing the right thing by not giving up and not switching to the winning faction.

We've seen over the last 3 years, that you and yours simply will not accept that personal responsibility - so its useless to even talk about it.

Where you say "[...]when there are only 30 people available[...]" that's why I included that it takes time to build a guild. Because it's not only 30 people over a 4 years period of time 24h/day. You have people that don't bother going in to Cyrodiil because they don't like the odds (I've been there myself). There are people that change character to a different faction. There are silent people just waiting in sneak to at some point go for something that's giving them AP. And there are plenty of more scenarios to why you don't see these people.
But if they were in a guild, they would also see in the guild roster if there's more people online and incentivise them to join too.
If they were in a guild and in a group they would be encouraged to help out to attack/defend a keep, knowing the odds aren't as terrible as it looks. A positive spin creates more positive opportunities.
Knowing how many people that will help, at bare minimum, incentivises people to attack/defend when they know the odds are good enough.
Even if we do disagree on the odds for success of creating a guild, with the intent of winning the campaign, I would still like to see someone actually try it. Because I know from (20 years gaming online and 20 years of studying psychology) experience that it works, but I've seen no true and wholehearted attempts being made to make a change on their own to actually battle it.

Invite that guy that's currently only playing in the evening - who knows, maybe he's just not logging on because he doesn't like the odds in the morning/afternoon.
Invite that guy that's completely new to pvp - maybe a couple of months he'll be great.
Get people that's not usually into pvp to try it - maybe they will enjoy it.
Some people will join once and never go back. Some people will try it a few times before they disappear. Some people will show up sporadically. But there are 500 spots available in a guild and there's no reason to keep it closed for only "good enough" ones.

Do it Biro. DO IT! Go! Chop chop! Be the great leader you have the potential to be and lead those who can't tell the difference between their ass and their backbar!

Edit: I just noticed you can only play 5-7pm. You make a guild, have a few "officers" that you MAKE SURE are on the same page, so you deligate the responsability for when you're not there. Make the goals clear for everyone. Keep a few but strics rules.

Err, no. It's a game, not a job. I've done the 'guild-running' thing before in other games. It's one thing to run a guild where you're planned activities happen when you (and your membership) are playing anyway. It's completely different to try to make it work around the clock.
For this to work, it would need:
1. A leader (leaders) who regularly play for a reasonable length of time during these off-peak times. For crying out loud, there are only a handful of leaders at peak times.!
2. Enough people playing those times for long enough to make grouping worth while.. Yeah, I used to be able to log in for a quick 'half-hour' before work or on lunchtimes.. Not enough to get anything done with a group, by the time you join, get to where they are, wait for other members etc... its just slower than running solo.. I suspect the majority of off-peak players are like this. Those that aren't... well, they're already zerging the empty servers.

And as Derra said, which I completely agree with.. Why do people keep playing on the servers with no opposition, when there are plenty of them jus a server-hop away?
I'll say it again, the problem isn't with the few people trying to counter these zergs, no matter how badly they are doing it - the problem is with these zergs who simply do not want to fight with anything other than an overwhelming advantage.
Ask yourself, what would you do if all the EP from Sotha suddenly landed in Vivec and your groups suddenly couldn't capture anything? I'll tell you what would happen - you'd go to Sotha so you could start winning again..

I see it approaching peak time.. Too many times lately, I've been on the winning side of combats only to find loads of AD individuals hiding. You uncover them, do they gank? do they fight? Are they AFK? No - they simply run and try to hide.. It's a straight 1v1 for crying out loud! what are you hiding from?? Even seen it inside AD keeps where the inner is under-siege.. AD players hiding on the walls - not trying to get inside the inner to defend, and when discovered, jump off the walls back outside and run.. What are they doing? Just trying to hide inside so after its taken, rezz people so they can PVDoor again? Real PVP too hard? This whole attitude stinks.

I said before I log off at 7 due to lag.. Its also partly because there is no competition for DC at that point.. EP are usually 2-bars and almost a non-entity, and AD collapse after Ash is retaken, and there is little contest there. I get bored when all we are doing is taking lightly-defended keep after lightly-defended keep..
The most fun with PVP happens with evenly matched sides.. The best fights are those long-running open fights that used to happen much more between Nickel and Roe, or Bleakers and Chal.. Evenly matched, back and forth.. Fights with places and roles for all sizes of groups from solo to 24s..
But too many people are actively trying to keep it Uneven, especially offpeak - which overall only serves to destroy PVP, not to continue it.