Katahdin wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

TLDR as in a rush, but overland IS top easy why not just scale up to your CP level

Because they can't scale an open world map where a level 3 0CP character can be in the same map and a CP 780 character

@joaaocaampos
I've seen plenty of lowbie characters struggling and dying to trash mobs in open world zones. Yea it's easy for SOME players. It's not easy for every player.

The ONLY way to make it harder for you is to nerf your character to the content either voluntary by removing CP, wearing white gear or with a slider

Otherwise every character would have to have their own instanced copy of the map which would require recoding of the game. Not gona happen

@Katahdin Why is the only suggestion always a self-nerf? Why? There is no other way?

Dragonnord wrote: »

It's not easy for everyone, as I constantly see players of all levels struggling in world bosses and so.

And same question; if a CP160, CP405 and CP810 engage the same boss, what level does that boss scale too?

Things are fine as they are.

@Dragonnord They are world bosses! Come on!

Again, I am not proposing "CP scaling". The monsters will remain the same for everyone, just as it is today, only stronger!

MMO's have really lost their way when it comes to PvE difficulty. This is pure and simply because of RL money. The more potatoes you have playing the game, the more money the company makes. There's nothing wrong with making money, there's nothing wrong with super casual gamers. But retaining those players is why games fail and close shop.

Making content so easy as your grandmother can play it, is why harder-core players all up and leave. I'm a pretty old gamer, and I can tell you nothing was more thrilling than wondering if I could make it across an open world zone to my guildmates already at a dungeon entrance. Wondering if the next turn would be met with a pack of really nasty group based content mobs that would slaughter me instantly. Having to actually GROUP UP to do overland areas to grind XP etc. Older games had this, and it's some of the most enjoyable gaming I've had the pleasure of doing. None of that exsists here.

ESO (among other games) have become so watered down it's just catering to whoever will give them money. It has nothing to do with actually challenging the playerbase anymore. It's about placating the masses to keep the revenue flowing. Any new hard mode vet trials are conquered on the first day!! (like WTF!?!) With older games back in the day, this took weeks!! (months for lesser hardened players), ANNNDD...you didn't get to PTS the crap out of it. The devs knew how to tweak it before even putting it live. Sometimes it was buggy, but you lived with it and they usually fixed or tweaked it within the first week of release. Not months later.

Moving back on subject, I would truly like to see the return of non-solo gameplay. Open world content that makes you need other players. Not just world bosses either. I mean even the trash mobs can take you out...kind of content. ESO had some of this with craglorn, and originally in I.C. (although, IC could still be solo'd to an extent, I used to test builds there). This kind of stuff is what built long lasting communities and friendships, because we all struggled "together" to take on w/e the dev's could throw at us. Which was usually way...way...more brutal than games today.

ScardyFox wrote: »

Everything you're worried about you should be worried about - on the surface anyway. Yes, it would segment players for a time - but really it would only segment lower level players from high level one till they "caught up". Just for simplistic example if I was at 400 CP and you were at 160 you couldn't access the dungeons I could but I could access yours.

This in essence would pool all the random dungeon players. Sometimes high level players would end up with their own doing harder dungeons, or sometimes they would end up pooled with the lower level players with their CP stunted down to the CP cap of said dungeon. This would stop people zerging random dungeons giving lower level players a chance to learn, while if they popped in a higher CP dungeon (again just for simplistic example) they would be grouped with powerful players in hard dungeons to reflect that higher CP strength.

This is just off the top of my head - there would be a lot of reworking to do and streamlining but the point I am trying to convey is it is possible. That said, they will probably never do such a large rework when it clearly needs to happen.

Destiny did something similar, but simpler.

All group dungeons are scaled down to the lowest power character. Had it's merits since lower level people never felt that the game was too hard, and higher level people never felt that it was too easy. But the problem is your damage scaled down, meaning that if on your own, you hit for say 20k with a single shot, when you scaled down, so did your damage. It made high level people feel like they weren't really as strong as they are supposed to be.

My sympathy goes out to the dev's responsible for this task. It really isn't easy.

Dreyloch wrote: »

MMO's have really lost their way when it comes to PvE difficulty. This is pure and simply because of RL money. The more potatoes you have playing the game, the more money the company makes. There's nothing wrong with making money, there's nothing wrong with super casual gamers. But retaining those players is why games fail and close shop.

Making content so easy as your grandmother can play it, is why harder-core players all up and leave. I'm a pretty old gamer, and I can tell you nothing was more thrilling than wondering if I could make it across an open world zone to my guildmates already at a dungeon entrance. Wondering if the next turn would be met with a pack of really nasty group based content mobs that would slaughter me instantly. Having to actually GROUP UP to do overland areas to grind XP etc. Older games had this, and it's some of the most enjoyable gaming I've had the pleasure of doing. None of that exsists here.

ESO (among other games) have become so watered down it's just catering to whoever will give them money. It has nothing to do with actually challenging the playerbase anymore. It's about placating the masses to keep the revenue flowing. Any new hard mode vet trials are conquered on the first day!! (like WTF!?!) With older games back in the day, this took weeks!! (months for lesser hardened players), ANNNDD...you didn't get to PTS the crap out of it. The devs knew how to tweak it before even putting it live. Sometimes it was buggy, but you lived with it and they usually fixed or tweaked it within the first week of release. Not months later.

Moving back on subject, I would truly like to see the return of non-solo gameplay. Open world content that makes you need other players. Not just world bosses either. I mean even the trash mobs can take you out...kind of content. ESO had some of this with craglorn, and originally in I.C. (although, IC could still be solo'd to an extent, I used to test builds there). This kind of stuff is what built long lasting communities and friendships, because we all struggled "together" to take on w/e the dev's could throw at us. Which was usually way...way...more brutal than games today.

I agree!

There is a lot of discussion here about new players suffering from world bosses. But of course this happens! And it should happen!

In the first few weeks of ESO, I came across world bosses, and realized they were too strong for me. That was not a problem. In fact, I have come to ignore them, to face them later. "I'll come back to you when I'm stronger!"

kathandira wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

You know you can always nerf yourself by taking off your gear and clearing out your CP to zero if the game is too easy for you right?

Didn't you read the first spoiler I wrote? I don't want to nerf myself. I want all monsters with CP bonuses. If you read the first spoiler, this is a problem that the Devs are discussing. It's a real problem!

lol, to be fair, I sometimes think it is better off in the hands of the players. ZOS's idea of balancing the game rarely results in a satisfactory result.

The latest example I can think of is the change to NHOF. First boss was nerfed to a basic tank and spank fight. Spheres no longer spawn with shields. Spheres no longer have a poison AoE. At this point, there is no reason even have the Spheres there at all.

It's because ZOS wants to please everyone.

The first idea that came to my mind before this "CP Bonus to monsters" was what is in Optional 2. That is, Dungeon Mode Toggle for Delves and Public Dungeons. This suggestion puts the choice in the hands of the players!

Option 2 couldn't hurt anyone. Just having the option to set your group to Vet, meaning any delve of PD you walk into will be in the Veteran Instance. Not keen on the idea of it being in a group finder since there are simply too many choices. But for just the way it is now, adding a second instance which is harder sounds like a fine idea to me.

Yes 2) is nice, would also have an buff to loot. not much but an buff so you don't loose out much on it rather than run it two times in normal.
Raising the difficulty will hurt some players, the very causal is one huge group, also healer and tanks don't get much dps benefit from cp, even if healer gear up in DD gear dps will be of an lower cp player, this is even more true for tanks especially health tanks who lacks resource pools.

Want a challenge... Try a naked unarmed build and tell me how easy those WB's are.

Oh... And no cheating. You only use gear you earn ON THAT CHARACTER. And no crafting gear if you did level up the crafting skills on that build.

Then tell me how easy Vet dungeons are in a PuG.

I've done it... It's very challenging.

zaria wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

You know you can always nerf yourself by taking off your gear and clearing out your CP to zero if the game is too easy for you right?

Didn't you read the first spoiler I wrote? I don't want to nerf myself. I want all monsters with CP bonuses. If you read the first spoiler, this is a problem that the Devs are discussing. It's a real problem!

lol, to be fair, I sometimes think it is better off in the hands of the players. ZOS's idea of balancing the game rarely results in a satisfactory result.

The latest example I can think of is the change to NHOF. First boss was nerfed to a basic tank and spank fight. Spheres no longer spawn with shields. Spheres no longer have a poison AoE. At this point, there is no reason even have the Spheres there at all.

It's because ZOS wants to please everyone.

The first idea that came to my mind before this "CP Bonus to monsters" was what is in Optional 2. That is, Dungeon Mode Toggle for Delves and Public Dungeons. This suggestion puts the choice in the hands of the players!

Option 2 couldn't hurt anyone. Just having the option to set your group to Vet, meaning any delve of PD you walk into will be in the Veteran Instance. Not keen on the idea of it being in a group finder since there are simply too many choices. But for just the way it is now, adding a second instance which is harder sounds like a fine idea to me.

Yes 2) is nice, would also have an buff to loot. not much but an buff so you don't loose out much on it rather than run it two times in normal.
Raising the difficulty will hurt some players, the very causal is one huge group, also healer and tanks don't get much dps benefit from cp, even if healer gear up in DD gear dps will be of an lower cp player, this is even more true for tanks especially health tanks who lacks resource pools.

My opinion would be, Purple drops, and include a higher chance at weapons and jewelry. That should be enough incentive to do Veteran Difficulty in Delves and Public Dungeons.

my thoughts:
- normal/vet toggle, right? We set to vet
- now every trash mob and boss (except world bosses) has a 60-75% (need to test it) damage reduction. It still not "bullet sponge", but at least boss will have a time for his bravado speech
- so we need more spike damage as well, vet toggle will activate like 50-75% damage boost to trash mobs and trash bosses

Now the most important part - if there is a new player standing with you and trying to kill boss, he will get usual damage AND his attacks will not be reduced (assuming he stay on normal mode, ofcuz). So no changes for him.

So yeah, it's basically "play naked + disable CP" simulation except you don't need to pay 3k gold to respec everytime you want pledge then questing and gear switch.

zaria wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

joaaocaampos wrote: »

It's because ZOS wants to please everyone.

The first idea that came to my mind before this "CP Bonus to monsters" was what is in Optional 2. That is, Dungeon Mode Toggle for Delves and Public Dungeons. This suggestion puts the choice in the hands of the players!

Option 2 couldn't hurt anyone. Just having the option to set your group to Vet, meaning any delve of PD you walk into will be in the Veteran Instance. Not keen on the idea of it being in a group finder since there are simply too many choices. But for just the way it is now, adding a second instance which is harder sounds like a fine idea to me.

Yes 2) is nice, would also have an buff to loot. not much but an buff so you don't loose out much on it rather than run it two times in normal.

kathandira wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

Option 2 couldn't hurt anyone. Just having the option to set your group to Vet, meaning any delve of PD you walk into will be in the Veteran Instance. Not keen on the idea of it being in a group finder since there are simply too many choices. But for just the way it is now, adding a second instance which is harder sounds like a fine idea to me.

Yes 2) is nice, would also have an buff to loot. not much but an buff so you don't loose out much on it rather than run it two times in normal.
Raising the difficulty will hurt some players, the very causal is one huge group, also healer and tanks don't get much dps benefit from cp, even if healer gear up in DD gear dps will be of an lower cp player, this is even more true for tanks especially health tanks who lacks resource pools.

My opinion would be, Purple drops, and include a higher chance at weapons and jewelry. That should be enough incentive to do Veteran Difficulty in Delves and Public Dungeons.

What I had to suggest, I already did. And I add something more.:

• XP and Gold earned in Veteran Delves and Veteran Public Dungeons are the same as the Normal version! That is, XP and Gold are not the real rewards.
• Sets and gear in general with better quality (epic, purple).
• New daily quests added to Public Dungeons: blue reward for Normal and purple for Veteran.

As I said above, the difference between Normal and Veteran will be in the Daily Quests.

Apherius wrote: »

ookami007 wrote: »

Want a challenge... Try a naked unarmed build and tell me how easy those WB's are.

Oh... And no cheating. You only use gear you earn ON THAT CHARACTER. And no crafting gear if you did level up the crafting skills on that build.

Then tell me how easy Vet dungeons are in a PuG.

I've done it... It's very challenging.

Come on ... If you are having fun, fine ! But the " play naked" spam need to stop, some don't like this idea and can't have fun with it, this is why they propose another idea. Personally I don't want to play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the content if I had all my stuff ... even if i complete it naked I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

Some want the try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll they have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ). Not very clear, but hope you understand.

Exactly!

mocap wrote: »

my thoughts:
- normal/vet toggle, right? We set to vet
- now every trash mob and boss (except world bosses) has a 60-75% (need to test it) damage reduction. It still not "bullet sponge", but at least boss will have a time for his bravado speech
- so we need more spike damage as well, vet toggle will activate like 50-75% damage boost to trash mobs and trash bosses

Now the most important part - if there is a new player standing with you and trying to kill boss, he will get usual damage AND his attacks will not be reduced (assuming he stay on normal mode, ofcuz). So no changes for him.

So yeah, it's basically "play naked + disable CP" simulation except you don't need to pay 3k gold to respec everytime you want pledge then questing and gear switch.

@mocap What? Are you suggesting something new or are your thoughts based on what I wrote?

Let me explain... again:

• Normal/Veteran Toggle is through Dungeon Mode Toggle.
• There will be Normal and Veteran instances in all Delves and Public Dungeons.
• Example 1: If you are solo and toggle to Normal, and enter a Delve, you'll only find players with the Normal toggle. As soon as you enter Delve, you will not be able to toggle to Veteran. You have to go out and do this!
• Example 2: If you are solo and toggle to Veteran, and enter a Delve, you'll only find players with the Veteran toggle.
• It's impossible to find players with Toggle Normal and Veteran in the same instance.
• If you are in a group with me, and I'm the leader, I decide the difficulty. It doesn't matter if I'm CP 800 and you're Lvl 30, if I choose the Veteran version, the monsters will be powerful and can kill you easily. That is, I'll be carrying you!

Is it clear now?

Good luck with that op.. Zos doesn't upgrade old content apparently..


It is known..

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

TLDR as in a rush, but overland IS top easy why not just scale up to your CP level

Because they can't scale an open world map where a level 3 0CP character can be in the same map and a CP 780 character

@joaaocaampos
I've seen plenty of lowbie characters struggling and dying to trash mobs in open world zones. Yea it's easy for SOME players. It's not easy for every player.

The ONLY way to make it harder for you is to nerf your character to the content either voluntary by removing CP, wearing white gear or with a slider

Otherwise every character would have to have their own instanced copy of the map which would require recoding of the game. Not gona happen

@Katahdin Why is the only suggestion always a self-nerf? Why? There is no other way?

Dragonnord wrote: »

It's not easy for everyone, as I constantly see players of all levels struggling in world bosses and so.

And same question; if a CP160, CP405 and CP810 engage the same boss, what level does that boss scale too?

Things are fine as they are.

@Dragonnord They are world bosses! Come on!

Again, I am not proposing "CP scaling". The monsters will remain the same for everyone, just as it is today, only stronger!

If you nerf yourself, it only affects you. If you buff every single monster in the game, it will affect everyone, even those who are struggling with the current difficulty. Your proposed overland monster buff could easily cause more people leaving the game than returning to it. There is no universal solution to this problem.
Your idea about the veteran delves/public dungeons is good, I could support that. The universal higher CP monsters... no.

Apherius wrote: »

ookami007 wrote: »

Want a challenge... Try a naked unarmed build and tell me how easy those WB's are.

Oh... And no cheating. You only use gear you earn ON THAT CHARACTER. And no crafting gear if you did level up the crafting skills on that build.

Then tell me how easy Vet dungeons are in a PuG.

I've done it... It's very challenging.

Come on ... If you are having fun, fine ! But the " play naked" spam need to stop, some don't like this idea and can't have fun with it, this is why they propose another idea. Personally I don't want to play naked while knowing that i could easily nuke the content if I had all my stuff ... even if i complete it naked I would just be sad to see that the game is easier than I thought.

Some want the try hard to feel like a push through the limit using everysingle toll they have to do it ( stuff, cp ect... ). Not very clear, but hope you understand.

There are vet DLC dungeons and trials for those players who want more difficult content. I agree that there should be more of them, particularly more trials (1 new trial per year seems way too slow for me).

mocap wrote: »

we all, who want some challenge from overland questing, can make a wonderful list about BS advices of this problem:
- play naked!
- disable CP!
- use full stamina build with only magika damage skills!
- kill mobs with your teeth bare hands! (not as werewolf ofcuz)
- go vMA if you want challenge! (logic of this advice completely disabled)
- go play other games (same as above)

Guys, who give such advices absolutely don't understand what this all about. Not even close. Hell, not even far....

If you want more challenging overland content, start a new character and don't use any CP or crafted gear. It still won't be the same as for a new player since you are experienced and already know ESO's systems, so it will be always easier for you, that simply can't be changed without splitting the playerbase.

I can only tell you about myself: I couldn't kill any mobs with 100k+ HP or a group of 3+ monsters until I reached ~lvl20. So I couldn't even finish some basic quests, like the one about the vampires in Phaer, Auridon (unless somebody else came there for the same quest). I was lvl45 when I did my first solo Dark Anchor. Right now I can solo anchors (but haven't tried any Summerset geysers yet), I finished every delve and base game public dungeon - but I still can't kill any world bosses or finish alone any group dungeons, not even normal ones. Maelstrom Arena is out of question. I play MMOs since 2005, I've tried many of them, I'm not inexperienced - but I'm not particularly skilled, and it seems I will never be. Consider it: players like me can keep an MMO alive. If players with my skill level are leaving, the game will end up empty and dead. I'm sure nobody wants that.

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

You know you can always nerf yourself by taking off your gear and clearing out your CP to zero if the game is too easy for you right?

Nobody would ever do that
Its like Swimming without using your hands

The assumption that overland content is "too easy" is not unanimous. Not by a long shot. It might be if you cherry-pick responses as I've seen you do in the past, but that's hardly honest or fair.

I still think having people choose a voluntary debuff makes the most sense, if not creating separate vet-type instances. I've heard a few people state that this would separate the vets from the newbies and casuals, but from what I've seen in-game and on the forums, that might not be a bad thing. The amount of resentment both ways is intense and doesn't exactly make for a good time

That's why I made a swordmaster toon. Max CP with medium armor and nothing but weapon abilities on the bar. He'll never do vet endgame stuff, but he's fun to play.

NupidStoob wrote: »

Delve and quest bosses have how much hp? 100k 200k? In a game where you can do 60k+ dps over minute long fights it's quite ridiculous. Gimping your build is only addressing the symptoms and surely not a proper solution.

Maybe you can do 60k+ dps, but most of the players can't.