Game Mechanics Rant
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DjMuscleboy02✭✭✭✭✭you sound like the kind of person who goes into stealth in dungeonsBrodor - PC NA - ESO's only pure bodybuilding guild
Hodor, but stronger4 -
Kingslayer513✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.
If you are playing ESO with a static rotation instead of playing dynamically, then you are absolutely playing the game wrong and gimping yourself on damage. Endgame is all about dynamic skill usage.
Please state your "Dynamic" skill usage and rotation. Because I am pretty certain you are pressing the same skills in an order, which makes it static. Arguably you can state that adding "Grim Focus" can make your rotation more dynamic, however thats still debatable.
Nope, you've got it all wrong. Since you're referring to nightblade, let's take magblade as an example. The only "static" part is right when you begin the fight/parse. Buff up, Channeled Acceleration, Destro ult then bar swap to lay down WoE and crippling grasp, bar swap back to lay down twisting path and then begin using your spammable. Everything beyond this point is dynamic. Firing bow proc is highest priority along with keeping all buffs up 100%, next priority is keeping up WoE (if you have maelstrom staff), then next priority is keeping up twisting path, below that is crippling grasp. If you're not putting up buffs or dots, then you're LA weaving your spammable. The times don't match up on everything, so you're constantly bar swapping to reapply stuff when it drops based on priority. You will not hit 50k+ dps using a static rotation, everything in endgame is a dynamic rotation and that's not even talking about raid mechanics and different skill usage specific to each trial.
Everything you just stated doesn't make your rotation dynamic other than "Grim Focus" or its morphs, which I stated earlier it being somewhat dynamic(with light attacks missing, which adds a RNG aspect), I'm sorry if you don't understand the definition of dynamic or static. You are stating when a "buff" or "debuff" drops, which is set on a timer. Your actions are still on a predetermined rotation, hence your use of the word "priority". You literally presented a static rotation, calling it dynamic.
Wow, you actually have no idea what you are talking about. A static rotation is what you mentioned earlier: pressing a sequence of buttons 1-5 on one bar, then swapping to the other bar and pressing a sequence of buttons 1-5, rinse and repeat all in a fixed fashion. Dynamically managing your buffs and dots uptime, constantly swapping back and forth based on what high priority skill needs to be refreshed because the skill timers don't all match up, this type of dynamic skill usage is the opposite of the previous one. It's not a rotation at all, you almost never activate skills in the same order. Also I don't know why you are fixated on RNG as a requirement for something being dynamic.
Evidently you have never achieved high dps and have never participated in endgame if you don't know what a dynamic ESO rotation is or looks like, so I don't know why you are bothering with this childish rant when you lack an understanding of the game's combat in the first place. I invite you to go back to WOW if your preference is to stubbornly remain ignorant of how combat works in ESO.0 -
ezikeo✭✭✭Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.
If you are playing ESO with a static rotation instead of playing dynamically, then you are absolutely playing the game wrong and gimping yourself on damage. Endgame is all about dynamic skill usage.
Please state your "Dynamic" skill usage and rotation. Because I am pretty certain you are pressing the same skills in an order, which makes it static. Arguably you can state that adding "Grim Focus" can make your rotation more dynamic, however thats still debatable.
Nope, you've got it all wrong. Since you're referring to nightblade, let's take magblade as an example. The only "static" part is right when you begin the fight/parse. Buff up, Channeled Acceleration, Destro ult then bar swap to lay down WoE and crippling grasp, bar swap back to lay down twisting path and then begin using your spammable. Everything beyond this point is dynamic. Firing bow proc is highest priority along with keeping all buffs up 100%, next priority is keeping up WoE (if you have maelstrom staff), then next priority is keeping up twisting path, below that is crippling grasp. If you're not putting up buffs or dots, then you're LA weaving your spammable. The times don't match up on everything, so you're constantly bar swapping to reapply stuff when it drops based on priority. You will not hit 50k+ dps using a static rotation, everything in endgame is a dynamic rotation and that's not even talking about raid mechanics and different skill usage specific to each trial.
Everything you just stated doesn't make your rotation dynamic other than "Grim Focus" or its morphs, which I stated earlier it being somewhat dynamic(with light attacks missing, which adds a RNG aspect), I'm sorry if you don't understand the definition of dynamic or static. You are stating when a "buff" or "debuff" drops, which is set on a timer. Your actions are still on a predetermined rotation, hence your use of the word "priority". You literally presented a static rotation, calling it dynamic.
Wow, you actually have no idea what you are talking about. A static rotation is what you mentioned earlier: pressing a sequence of buttons 1-5 on one bar, then swapping to the other bar and pressing a sequence of buttons 1-5, rinse and repeat all in a fixed fashion. Dynamically managing your buffs and dots uptime, constantly swapping back and forth based on what high priority skill needs to be refreshed because the skill timers don't all match up, this type of dynamic skill usage is the opposite of the previous one. It's not a rotation at all, you almost never activate skills in the same order. Also I don't know why you are fixated on RNG as a requirement for something being dynamic.
Evidently you have never achieved high dps and have never participated in endgame if you don't know what a dynamic ESO rotation is or looks like, so I don't know why you are bothering with this childish rant when you lack an understanding of the game's combat in the first place. I invite you to go back to WOW if your preference is to stubbornly remain ignorant of how combat works in ESO.
I've actually ranked top 1% in most games and I know the difference between static and dynamic. You obviously don't understand predetermined sequences, in which you described. RNG is what makes something dynamic. I'm sorry you aren't able to comprehend the idea. A long static rotation is still static if it has no RNG aspect. I'll just ignore your further ignorant comments.0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
still doesnt hurt. sorry bro. were no threat to anyone.Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
Kingslayer513✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »Kingslayer513 wrote: »At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.
If you are playing ESO with a static rotation instead of playing dynamically, then you are absolutely playing the game wrong and gimping yourself on damage. Endgame is all about dynamic skill usage.
Please state your "Dynamic" skill usage and rotation. Because I am pretty certain you are pressing the same skills in an order, which makes it static. Arguably you can state that adding "Grim Focus" can make your rotation more dynamic, however thats still debatable.
Nope, you've got it all wrong. Since you're referring to nightblade, let's take magblade as an example. The only "static" part is right when you begin the fight/parse. Buff up, Channeled Acceleration, Destro ult then bar swap to lay down WoE and crippling grasp, bar swap back to lay down twisting path and then begin using your spammable. Everything beyond this point is dynamic. Firing bow proc is highest priority along with keeping all buffs up 100%, next priority is keeping up WoE (if you have maelstrom staff), then next priority is keeping up twisting path, below that is crippling grasp. If you're not putting up buffs or dots, then you're LA weaving your spammable. The times don't match up on everything, so you're constantly bar swapping to reapply stuff when it drops based on priority. You will not hit 50k+ dps using a static rotation, everything in endgame is a dynamic rotation and that's not even talking about raid mechanics and different skill usage specific to each trial.
Everything you just stated doesn't make your rotation dynamic other than "Grim Focus" or its morphs, which I stated earlier it being somewhat dynamic(with light attacks missing, which adds a RNG aspect), I'm sorry if you don't understand the definition of dynamic or static. You are stating when a "buff" or "debuff" drops, which is set on a timer. Your actions are still on a predetermined rotation, hence your use of the word "priority". You literally presented a static rotation, calling it dynamic.
Wow, you actually have no idea what you are talking about. A static rotation is what you mentioned earlier: pressing a sequence of buttons 1-5 on one bar, then swapping to the other bar and pressing a sequence of buttons 1-5, rinse and repeat all in a fixed fashion. Dynamically managing your buffs and dots uptime, constantly swapping back and forth based on what high priority skill needs to be refreshed because the skill timers don't all match up, this type of dynamic skill usage is the opposite of the previous one. It's not a rotation at all, you almost never activate skills in the same order. Also I don't know why you are fixated on RNG as a requirement for something being dynamic.
Evidently you have never achieved high dps and have never participated in endgame if you don't know what a dynamic ESO rotation is or looks like, so I don't know why you are bothering with this childish rant when you lack an understanding of the game's combat in the first place. I invite you to go back to WOW if your preference is to stubbornly remain ignorant of how combat works in ESO.
I've actually ranked top 1% in most games and I know the difference between static and dynamic. You obviously don't understand predetermined sequences, in which you described. RNG is what makes something dynamic. I'm sorry you aren't able to comprehend the idea. A long static rotation is still static if it has no RNG aspect. I'll just ignore your further ignorant comments.
Dynamic and static rotations have very common, well-defined meanings here in the ESO community. You can't just make up your own limiting definitions to support your own points.0 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
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still doesnt hurt. sorry bro. were no threat to anyone.
I'm a threat to any boss if you give me a couple hours, just saying. 😎2 -
swippy✭✭✭✭✭Well, combat is a mess right now and has been for a while, I think that is certain. But don't expect anything to change. If they insist on light attack, heavy attack meta with this idiotic focus on animation cancelling, it is clear they have zero interest in making the combat appealing in any way.
i don't understand this complaint at all. the game would feel clunky and frustrating without animation cancelling. all it does is allow you to do more, and exert more control over your character.
if my magplar channels Radiant Destruction, and all of a sudden the whole ground started glowing redder and redder, there are 2 ways it can go:
1.) without animation cancelling i'd be stuck in my attack animation and forced to just die from the OHKO
2.) with animation cancelling i am able to block, interrupting my move and living through the attack.
the second option allows me to decide whether i want to risk hanging on for one more second for the increasing damage, or just play it safe. i have options in the moment, which promotes dynamic decision-making. i think that's part of what makes combat fun here.
with the first option i can only choose not to use a powerful skill, or blame my healer. neither of those choices promote fun.
and with the light attack weaving, that's about as optional as it gets. you can slip in extra attacks between your skills if you want to do more damage, or you can do decent enough damage to make Trials teams without it. making a trials team requires decent gear and rotation anyway, so that's "hard" anyway. the weaving is just a bonus if you want to tap into it, and not necessary at all.
i read way too much about animation cancelling and didn't really "get it" and then eventually sort of discovered it again on my own when i thought i was ready to do more with my character, and then just tried it. it gives me more options and better control. i thought videogame players usually liked more options and better control.0 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭i believe he meant light attack weaving not cancelling skills via block or roll dodge etc. No one wants that changed.
Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
swippy✭✭✭✭✭i believe he meant light attack weaving not cancelling skills via block or roll dodge etc. No one wants that changed.
that would be weird. considering that animation cancelling encompasses weaving of both light and heavy attacks, block cancels, roll dodges and bar-swap stuff it seems funny to villainize just light-weaving while using a word that describes many more things.
i mean, i'm not saying you're wrong, Rungar. that certainly didn't occur to me.
it's like saying that vegetables suck because you don't like okra, and then wondering why you're dying from malnutrition and constipation.
but the DOT argument is similarly weak. it's easy enough to imagine a Tamriel with all just direct one-time damage knockoffs. we have the global one-second cooldown, so if that was it we'd just be repeatedly using the hardest-hitting skill that we could sustain. anything less would be foolish. some 3rd-grade algebra would be enough to make anyone a top "damage-dealer" and i would have stopped playing this game years ago.
they would have to do things like introducing cooldowns that were specific to the skills, or other triggers like the combo they tried out with that "Overload" mechanic, and that's kind of like... a different combat system. which is probably where these "go play another game" responses are coming from.
(btw, i understand that those are read as dismissive, and probably often typed that way, but it's a valid concept. i've written a few videogames, and often shared them with colleagues just for feedback. most of them have been "minigames" intended as "improvements" on game engines that i considered "almost awesome." it can be tough to find the right audience to get informative educated feedback on how a game should work, but when you pull it off it's usually way more enlightening than you expected. that's why i favor "go write your own game" over "go play something else." you get to learn way more about the system you're so concerned about. sometimes you even organically figure out why the big guys did it that way in the first place. it's very satisfying, even if it's a much bigger digression than this paragraph.)
anyway, yeah the DOTs are another way to introduce dynamic decision-making without engineering an entirely new combat system. this does X for Y seconds, and this one does X.X for Y.Y seconds. then with the third dimension of them having different resources costs, and then most of that being affectable by managing your CP and your Max and Regen stats, it allows for a lot of freedom and choice. way more than the "3rd-grade algebra" option that choosing your spammable would leave us with.1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The game really needs better looking combat animations, the 2H and DW Light and Heavy attacks do not look good.
Also self buffs need to be longer, I believe Rally the heal from the 2H skillline is decent but could be longer. But everything else ends too fast, it needs more duration.
Its like for half the fight i'm just self buffing myself, its just not fun or engaging.
Also bleeds, why is it that most, if not all classes in PvE revolves around some sort of DoT mechanic. I am talking about high end PvE content. Managing bleeds is just not fun, I understand that some players like that playstyle, however can the devs add or adjust other playstyles to be on par with bleed specs.
I really do enjoy the game alot, however if the above suggestions were brought to full fruition, the game would be at the top.
Ranting game combat without fully understanding or knowing it...
GG
Not sure what you are saying? What part of the game combat is not known? Please name one viable build, skill setup that doesn't involve a DoT. Don't bother, I'm pretty sure you can't. Thanks for the bump though.
You dont know what I am saying because You dont know this game combat system as You prove in almost every post in this thread. When You're speaking for top 1% of the game and I strongly doubt You're even close to that. As for naming 1 viable non DoT build well werewolf is that build. There are people able to achieve 80k+ plus DPs just by spamming light attack 90% of a time. What You seem to not understand is that ESO have completly different set of rules for combat then games like WoW. Games like WoW rely on many abilities having cooldown plus characters having acces to bunch of abilities at once.
ESO combat is completly different we have 10 slots for abilities without cooldown. That's why we have skills that require some time to achieve full effectivenes. Fact we have 3-4 DoTs in our PvE rotation allows to make rotation where despite lack of cooldowns You still cannot mash 1-2 buttons. If rotations wouldnt rely on DoTs then You could just stack every passive ability on bars and mash 1 button of the one strongest attack. Funny fact is that You dont even know what You're hating on because if those DoT abilities would be changed into for example some buffs/debuffs You would have to still manage to apply them on time.
As for dynamic rotations well issue here is simple. You never achieved high DPS in this game so You have no idea what dynamic rotation in ESO is. If You have 3-4 abilities to refresh and each have different duration and You want to refresh then ideally then only this makes rotation dynamic since during fight You'll have to make fast decisions what to use and which ability to prioritise when 2 or more are off coldown or will expire in similar time frame. For example mentioned by You magblade needs to control twisting path (11 seconds) , elemental blockade (8 seconds) , crippling grasp (8 seconds) and merciless resolve (5-6 seconds). Then there are buffs like siphoning attacks (20 seconds) and uses of ultimate. If You'e graduated math in ground school You should know that in situation like that to achieve 100% uptimes without refreshing abilities too early You'll have to dynamically change row of Your rotation during the combat and there wont be such a thing as repeating the same row over and over again. Mastering this plus light attack weaving takes some time and practice and requires more skill from player then mastering rotation in game like WoW.
I think that this thread in general is just another try from some low skilled person to say how ESO rotations and light attack weaving are bad because that person cannot perform it properly.Edited by Juhasow on November 7, 2018 7:23AM1 -
ezikeo✭✭✭^ I ignored the guy above me, I'm sure he still doesn't get it, most children aren't able to comprehend basic logic. Not sure why he even decided to join an adult conversation. But I am done. Have fun with a lackluster combat system.0
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭^ I ignored the guy above me, I'm sure he still doesn't get it, most children aren't able to comprehend basic logic. Not sure why he even decided to join an adult conversation. But I am done. Have fun with a lackluster combat system.
And this basicly closes the case as You proved everything I said about You was right. Have fun.2 -
SakuraRush✭✭✭I think part of the problem is that combat "rotation" is a thing at all. Just for a heads up I don't agree with the topic, but it isn't entirely incorrect.
First the rotation a user described as dynamic is not. It's still static more than it's not. That's simply how combat in ESO is. Having a "rotation" means it's mostly static.
In combat the majority of the time we are just "going through the motions". Very rarely does the situation call for a drastic reaction.
I'm not a fan of the alternative either. Many skills with large cool down timers results in a style of combat many feel is boring. Though in reality it's not different from what we do now with "rotation".
Combat in MMOs is by and large a boring affair. It goes with the territory.
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Kingslayer513✭✭✭✭✭
✭"I ignored the guy above me"
Lmao, what a train wreck. Can I have your stuff before you leave?0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ESO combat is much worse then Skyrim’s, and Skyrim’s was never considered good.
In ESO it’s laggy and clumsy, only thing which makes it wortwhile are combinations and rotation/animation cancellation technics.
1080ti and 80ms ping i have, so
lags are on game design level not because of my pc or connection.0 -
Aluneth✭✭✭✭I'm going to sidestep this train wreck of a discussion, and touch upon a subject that was mentioned but mostly ignored.
I would like them to change the timers on some buffs. Sure it's not needed and more of a quality of life change, but it would make combat more enjoyable. I run 1x 30 second buff and 2x 25 second buffs and it feels like I spend a lot of time refreshing them between DoTs and heavy attacks, etc.Edited by Aluneth on November 7, 2018 8:40AM0 -
NupidStoob✭✭✭✭✭Anyone care to enlighten me how increasing buff/dot durations in current ESO combat would actually make it more engaging? You just end up weaving your spammable more which is ridiculously boring.
Sounds to me like people want a different combat system altogether, but at that point you might as well go play the games that offer you what you want. Not like ZoS will change their combat just because a few people dislike it.
I also don't get why people are still talking about LA weaves. Why does it matter that it wasn't intended? That is not an argument for or against it's existence whatsoever. It's part of the game now and combat has been balanced around it. I am quite happy that proper DPS is gated behind practicing and doesn't just come from having gear.0 -
FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭One button rotation, yay!
Not sure where you are getting that 1 button rotation idea from, but clearly you don't understand combat systems from other games. WoWs combat rotation for most if not all classes are way more dynamic then ESO. Which makes combat fun and engaging. WoW alone with its skills and passives that gives you a random proc to activate a skill based on an RNG system makes rotations fun, dynamic and engaging. ESO is extremely static, you might as well make a macro and press 1 button for an optimized rotation, because nothing changes. You press 1 through 5 swap bars, then press 1 through 5 again with an occasional "Ultimate" and you rinse and repeat and please don't make an argument with when adding light and heavy attacks to the rotation makes it more engaging, because adding LA and HA are mandatory for DPS optimization.
Have played WoW for around six years before ESO and you can not compare the two combat systems and for ESO to work this way would need a complete rework leading to ESO not being ESO anymore. The core feature of ESOs combat system leading to rotations being mostly DOT based is the lack of cooldowns and this is why you would have a one button rotations if DOTs wouldn't be a thing. RNG in my opinion should not be a factor in a combat system as it replaces skill with luck. I fully agree that ESO has generally more simple rotations then other MMOs, however it also has otherwise more active and dynamic combat, which in my opinion requires roations to be a bit more simple in order to work in this enviorment.
However, I don't want to be insulting, but if you think just pressing skills 1-5 over and over or just using a macro will get you good DPS you clearly lack experience in this game. With a few exceptions dynamically adjusting your rotation to the combat scenario is a core skill required to pulling good DPS in actual fights and not only dummy parses.EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)1 -
Aeladiir✭✭✭✭✭Well, combat is a mess right now and has been for a while, I think that is certain. But don't expect anything to change. If they insist on light attack, heavy attack meta with this idiotic focus on animation canceling, it is clear they have zero interest in making the combat appealing in any way.
Yeah... Speaking is in WoW where you just stand there boringly using your skills. So. Damn. Exciting.
The combat in this game is dynamic, fast-paced and heavily player skill based, which is awesome. You need to train yourself to get better, not just spam and win.
Why bring WoW into this? WoW is garbage (like any other Blizzard game out there SmileyFace), sure, but that doesn't mean ESO is god damn perfect. Keep "learning" animation canceling, though, I'm sure you are genuinely convinced that this makes you a "better player". Yikes from me, dawg.
PS: Animation canceling is NOT hard in ESO and doing it on a decent level is not a reason for one to consider himself a good player in any way. As long as you follow the meta, you can easily reach 35k. Edited by Aeladiir on November 10, 2018 3:10PM0
