Game Mechanics Rant

ezikeo

The game really needs better looking combat animations, the 2H and DW Light and Heavy attacks do not look good.

Also self buffs need to be longer, I believe Rally the heal from the 2H skillline is decent but could be longer. But everything else ends too fast, it needs more duration.
Its like for half the fight i'm just self buffing myself, its just not fun or engaging.

Also bleeds, why is it that most, if not all classes in PvE revolves around some sort of DoT mechanic. I am talking about high end PvE content. Managing bleeds is just not fun, I understand that some players like that playstyle, however can the devs add or adjust other playstyles to be on par with bleed specs.

I really do enjoy the game alot, however if the above suggestions were brought to full fruition, the game would be at the top.

laksikus

spamming 1 skill in PvE should do wxactly what it does now. mediocore dps

idk

ezikeo wrote: »

Also bleeds, why is it that most, if not all classes in PvE revolves around some sort of DoT mechanic. I am talking about high end PvE content.

I think the first question that needs to be asked, is you asking yourself why you do not like DoTs. Pretty much every MMORPG I have played has some DoT for most DPS classes, whether it be a channeled attack or an instant cast or a mix of them.

If you want to do good dps with those classes you will use those DoTs.

With that there are not many spamables in this game and fortunately one cannot do good dps with just one, or two, skills. So, DoTs is where it is as.

This is not going to change. The Devs are not going to make it so someone can pull great dps with just instant damage skills. That would be boring.

Aeladiir

Well, combat is a mess right now and has been for a while, I think that is certain. But don't expect anything to change. If they insist on light attack, heavy attack meta with this idiotic focus on animation cancelling, it is clear they have zero interest in making the combat appealing in any way.

ZonasArch

Aeladiir wrote: »

Well, combat is a mess right now and has been for a while, I think that is certain. But don't expect anything to change. If they insist on light attack, heavy attack meta with this idiotic focus on animation cancelling, it is clear they have zero interest in making the combat appealing in any way.

Yeah... Speaking is in WoW where you just stand there boringly using your skills. So. Damn. Exciting.

The combat in this game is dynamic, fast paced and heavily player skill based, which is awesome. You need to train yourself to get better, not just spam and win.

Stratloc

There are no cooldowns on skills in this game. So you would just be spamming the same highest damage skill if other skills didn't apply dots, buffs or debuffs. That doesn't sound fun.

Ermiq

ESO's combat system couldn't work with such a non-DoT class.

Do you know how devs usually do balance DoT-classes and non-DoT classes in MMORPGs? With cooldown durations and cast time. Yep, these things which young players hate so much in classic MMORPGs.

Do you know why almost every skill in this game has no cast time? Because of interruption mechanics.

I have no answer why there's no cooldowns (except for ultimates), but I'm pretty sure it's kinda TES VI-V legacy, so cooldowns likely wouldn't appear in ESO.

That's why non-DoT class is impossible in ESO.

Ermiq

ZonasArch wrote: »

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Aeladiir wrote: »

Well, combat is a mess right now and has been for a while, I think that is certain. But don't expect anything to change. If they insist on light attack, heavy attack meta with this idiotic focus on animation cancelling, it is clear they have zero interest in making the combat appealing in any way.

Yeah... Speaking is in WoW where you just stand there boringly using your skills. So. Damn. Exciting.

The combat in this game is dynamic, fast paced and heavily player skill based, which is awesome. You need to train yourself to get better, not just spam and win.

I think I will never understand this mindset.
What actually is a difference between WoW-like and ESO combat systems?
The only significant difference I know is LA weaving/animcancelling (and the truth is this is still an unintented 'feature'; if you disagree, then you just don't understand what the game design is ). And that's all.
Any other differences you see is just an illusion of difference. People think they have to move more actively here, they think they might spot some skill visuals their opponent is going to use, they think they can perform awesome burst here because there's no cooldowns in ESO. Well, all of this is pretty much the same as WoW actually. It seems different, for some people it might even feel different. But still both of these games are mainly based on GCD, numbers and hit radius/zone/range.
Some people think that bashing, blocking and rolling makes difference. Though they somehow forget about a huge difference between how much buttons they might use in WoW-like games during the fight. And also I have to inform you guys that many WoW-like games have the same separated GCD (sometimes no GCD at all) for some skills, the same as ESO's LA/block/bash/roll, you can't attack the target which is behing you, etc.
Oh, I forgot about another one significant difference: you don't have to hold RMB to move your camera. Sure, it makes combat more action-ish (it doesn't ).

Actually, sometimes I really feel like it's quite boring to have such limited actions available in ESO and other games with 5-8 cells skillpanel. But in general both types feel almost the same.
PS: what is really different in terms of combat is the Black Desert, for example.

ZonasArch

Eremith wrote: »

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ZonasArch wrote: »

Aeladiir wrote: »

Well, combat is a mess right now and has been for a while, I think that is certain. But don't expect anything to change. If they insist on light attack, heavy attack meta with this idiotic focus on animation cancelling, it is clear they have zero interest in making the combat appealing in any way.

Yeah... Speaking is in WoW where you just stand there boringly using your skills. So. Damn. Exciting.

The combat in this game is dynamic, fast paced and heavily player skill based, which is awesome. You need to train yourself to get better, not just spam and win.

I think I will never understand this mindset.
What actually is a difference between WoW-like and ESO combat systems?
The only significant difference I know is LA weaving/animcancelling (and the truth is this is still an unintented 'feature'; if you disagree, then you just don't understand what the game design is ). And that's all.
Any other differences you see is just an illusion of difference. People think they have to move more actively here, they think they might spot some skill visuals their opponent is going to use, they think they can perform awesome burst here because there's no cooldowns in ESO. Well, all of this is pretty much the same as WoW actually. It seems different, for some people it might even feel different. But still both of these games are mainly based on GCD, numbers and hit radius/zone/range.
Some people think that bashing, blocking and rolling makes difference. Though they somehow forget about a huge difference between how much buttons they might use in WoW-like games during the fight. And also I have to inform you guys that many WoW-like games have the same separated GCD (sometimes no GCD at all) for some skills, the same as ESO's LA/block/bash/roll, you can't attack the target which is behing you, etc.
Oh, I forgot about another one significant difference: you don't have to hold RMB to move your camera. Sure, it makes combat more action-ish (it doesn't ).

Actually, sometimes I really feel like it's quite boring to have such limited actions available in ESO and other games with 5-8 cells skillpanel. But in general both types feel almost the same.
PS: what is really different in terms of combat is the Black Desert, for example.

Ok.

ezikeo

You do understand its possible to make a class without dots viable right?
Look at the skill "Grim Focus" its similar to a combo point system from WoW for rogues, where doing 5 LA or 2 HA + 1 LA would activate the skill, just like a Rogues finishers. The devs could easily make a system where you do a certain amount of skills that would activate a finisher and those skills would have to be anything other than dots. And the damage of the finisher would make up for the DoT damage.
Or they could make a system where the most optimized rotation would be doing certain skills in a specific chain that debuff the target and buff a certain skill, thus making the rotation smooth and logical.

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

Royaji

ezikeo wrote: »

You do understand its possible to make a class without dots viable right?
Look at the skill "Grim Focus" its similar to a combo point system from WoW for rogues, where doing 5 LA or 2 HA + 1 LA would activate the skill, just like a Rogues finishers. The devs could easily make a system where you do a certain amount of skills that would activate a finisher and those skills would have to be anything other than dots. And the damage of the finisher would make up for the DoT damage.
Or they could make a system where the most optimized rotation would be doing certain skills in a specific chain that debuff the target and buff a certain skill, thus making the rotation smooth and logical.

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

So... why are you not playing "far more engaging" WoW? They even have a new fancy expantion, right? Oh, it flopped terribly... oops.

Ermiq

Royaji wrote: »

show previous quotes

ezikeo wrote: »

You do understand its possible to make a class without dots viable right?
Look at the skill "Grim Focus" its similar to a combo point system from WoW for rogues, where doing 5 LA or 2 HA + 1 LA would activate the skill, just like a Rogues finishers. The devs could easily make a system where you do a certain amount of skills that would activate a finisher and those skills would have to be anything other than dots. And the damage of the finisher would make up for the DoT damage.
Or they could make a system where the most optimized rotation would be doing certain skills in a specific chain that debuff the target and buff a certain skill, thus making the rotation smooth and logical.

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

So... why are you not playing "far more engaging" WoW? They even have a new fancy expantion, right? Oh, it flopped terribly... oops.

Oh, these "then go play another game" comments...

Also, I see you stating that WoW failed and the reason of the fail is WoW's combat system. Really? I mean, are you serious or maybe you just tried to joke?

kojou

I am kinda with you on timings. I would like to see more standardized buff times and DoT times on a per class basis to simplify rotations.

ezikeo

Royaji wrote: »

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ezikeo wrote: »

You do understand its possible to make a class without dots viable right?
Look at the skill "Grim Focus" its similar to a combo point system from WoW for rogues, where doing 5 LA or 2 HA + 1 LA would activate the skill, just like a Rogues finishers. The devs could easily make a system where you do a certain amount of skills that would activate a finisher and those skills would have to be anything other than dots. And the damage of the finisher would make up for the DoT damage.
Or they could make a system where the most optimized rotation would be doing certain skills in a specific chain that debuff the target and buff a certain skill, thus making the rotation smooth and logical.

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

So... why are you not playing "far more engaging" WoW? They even have a new fancy expantion, right? Oh, it flopped terribly... oops.

I actually am playing both games, the only thing ESO has over WoW is the story telling(which I enjoy), not the combat. The "expansion" not "expantion" hasn't flopped, WoW being top 10 on twitch kinda tells you that. ESO with the release of Murkmire on the first day not even making top 40 kinda paints a story of its own.

FakeFox

One button rotation, yay!

ezikeo

FakeFox wrote: »

One button rotation, yay!

Not sure where you are getting that 1 button rotation idea from, but clearly you don't understand combat systems from other games. WoWs combat rotation for most if not all classes are way more dynamic then ESO. Which makes combat fun and engaging. WoW alone with its skills and passives that gives you a random proc to activate a skill based on an RNG system makes rotations fun, dynamic and engaging. ESO is extremely static, you might as well make a macro and press 1 button for an optimized rotation, because nothing changes. You press 1 through 5 swap bars, then press 1 through 5 again with an occasional "Ultimate" and you rinse and repeat and please don't make an argument with when adding light and heavy attacks to the rotation makes it more engaging, because adding LA and HA are mandatory for DPS optimization.

ZonasArch

ezikeo wrote: »

You do understand its possible to make a class without dots viable right?
Look at the skill "Grim Focus" its similar to a combo point system from WoW for rogues, where doing 5 LA or 2 HA + 1 LA would activate the skill, just like a Rogues finishers. The devs could easily make a system where you do a certain amount of skills that would activate a finisher and those skills would have to be anything other than dots. And the damage of the finisher would make up for the DoT damage.
Or they could make a system where the most optimized rotation would be doing certain skills in a specific chain that debuff the target and buff a certain skill, thus making the rotation smooth and logical.

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

Sounds like you spend a lot of your "combat" fighting skellies. If all you do is rotation between dots after dots after dots, then you're a def bad player. No defense? No buffing? Nothing planned while you heavy attack for sustain? No light attack weaving at all? No dodging or blocking, no Purging or healing? Damn, son... Are you one of those that always blame the healer when you die? 😂 Well... Breaking news! You die because you suck, probably.

ezikeo

FakeFox wrote: »

One button rotation, yay!

Not sure where you are getting that 1 button rotation idea from, but clearly you don't understand combat systems from other games. WoWs combat rotation for most if not all classes are way more dynamic then ESO. Which makes combat fun and engaging. WoW alone with its skills and passives that gives you a random proc to activate a skill based on an RNG system makes rotations fun and dynamic. ESO is extremely static, you might as well make a macro and press 1 button for an optimized rotation, because nothing changes. You press 1 through 5 swap bars, then press 1 through 5 and rinse and repeat and please don't make an argument with adding light and heavy attacks to the rotation makes it more engaging, because adding LA and HA are mandatory.

ZonasArch wrote: »

show previous quotes

ezikeo wrote: »

You do understand its possible to make a class without dots viable right?
Look at the skill "Grim Focus" its similar to a combo point system from WoW for rogues, where doing 5 LA or 2 HA + 1 LA would activate the skill, just like a Rogues finishers. The devs could easily make a system where you do a certain amount of skills that would activate a finisher and those skills would have to be anything other than dots. And the damage of the finisher would make up for the DoT damage.
Or they could make a system where the most optimized rotation would be doing certain skills in a specific chain that debuff the target and buff a certain skill, thus making the rotation smooth and logical.

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

Sounds like you spend a lot of your "combat" fighting skellies. If all you do is rotation between dots after dots after dots, then you're a def bad player. No defense? No buffing? Nothing planned while you heavy attack for sustain? No light attack weaving at all? No dodging or blocking, no Purging or healing? Damn, son... Are you one of those that always blame the healer when you die? 😂 Well... Breaking news! You die because you suck, probably.

We are talking about PvE rotaions and if you actaully read the thread, light/heavy attack weaving and buffs were stated earlier. However I'll just ignore any other ignorant comments you decide to make in the future.

Kingslayer513

Aeladiir wrote: »

Well, combat is a mess right now and has been for a while, I think that is certain.

Nope, speak for yourself. Combat in ESO is in a better place now than it has been for a long time.

But don't expect anything to change. If they insist on light attack, heavy attack meta with this idiotic focus on animation cancelling, it is clear they have zero interest in making the combat appealing in any way.

Heavy attack meta? What? Do you even play the game?

Kingslayer513

ezikeo wrote: »

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

If you are playing ESO with a static rotation instead of playing dynamically, then you are absolutely playing the game wrong and gimping yourself on damage. Endgame is all about dynamic skill usage.

Valrien

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

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ezikeo wrote: »

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

If you are playing ESO with a static rotation instead of playing dynamically, then you are absolutely playing the game wrong and gimping yourself on damage. Endgame is all about dynamic skill usage.

This absolutely. On my Sorc I swapped LL to the back and Curse to the front to allow for more dynamic Curse uptime and I actually got a pretty sizeable DPS increase.

Rungar

While i do believe that eso's combat system is holding it down with dozens of zombie hands coming out of the ground ..

i dont think it has anything to do with dots or more specifically player rotations. I think they are a good thing about the combat system. They require a level of skill but anyone can pick it up. You dont need complex rotations to put out some dmg. Most of the combat system is pretty good.

where they fall down i believe is the light attacks gameplay (weaving). Its like wow met skyrim and morphed into this hideous system. I think it tends to alienate people from the game as i think its a little too much but it has its own cult should you object to it. .

you can fix most of your buffs by the way by wearing jorvulds guidance.

ezikeo

Rungar wrote: »

While i do believe that eso's combat system is holding it down with dozens of zombie hands coming out of the ground ..

i dont think it has anything to do with dots or more specifically player rotations. I think they are a good thing about the combat system. They require a level of skill but anyone can pick it up. You dont need complex rotations to put out some dmg. Most of the combat system is pretty good.

where they fall down i believe is the light attacks gameplay (weaving). Its like wow met skyrim and morphed into this hideous system. I think it tends to alienate people from the game as i think its a little too much but it has its own cult should you object to it. .

you can fix most of your buffs by the way by wearing jorvulds guidance.

I actually do run Jorvuld's, but for longer fights activating buffs and having 100% uptime while weaving light attacks in between is pretty clunky. I'm not sure how anyone can pretend its fun or engaging.

ezikeo

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

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ezikeo wrote: »

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

If you are playing ESO with a static rotation instead of playing dynamically, then you are absolutely playing the game wrong and gimping yourself on damage. Endgame is all about dynamic skill usage.

Please state your "Dynamic" skill usage and rotation. Because I am pretty certain you are pressing the same skills in an order, which makes it static. Arguably you can state that adding "Grim Focus" can make your rotation more dynamic, however thats still debatable.

Mintaka5

laksikus wrote: »

spamming 1 skill in PvE should do wxactly what it does now. mediocore dps

Yeah? What do we do while we wait for everything else to cool down or cast?

Juhasow

ezikeo wrote: »

The game really needs better looking combat animations, the 2H and DW Light and Heavy attacks do not look good.

Also self buffs need to be longer, I believe Rally the heal from the 2H skillline is decent but could be longer. But everything else ends too fast, it needs more duration.
Its like for half the fight i'm just self buffing myself, its just not fun or engaging.

Also bleeds, why is it that most, if not all classes in PvE revolves around some sort of DoT mechanic. I am talking about high end PvE content. Managing bleeds is just not fun, I understand that some players like that playstyle, however can the devs add or adjust other playstyles to be on par with bleed specs.

I really do enjoy the game alot, however if the above suggestions were brought to full fruition, the game would be at the top.

Ranting game combat without fully understanding or knowing it...

GG

ezikeo

Juhasow wrote: »

show previous quotes

ezikeo wrote: »

The game really needs better looking combat animations, the 2H and DW Light and Heavy attacks do not look good.

Also self buffs need to be longer, I believe Rally the heal from the 2H skillline is decent but could be longer. But everything else ends too fast, it needs more duration.
Its like for half the fight i'm just self buffing myself, its just not fun or engaging.

Also bleeds, why is it that most, if not all classes in PvE revolves around some sort of DoT mechanic. I am talking about high end PvE content. Managing bleeds is just not fun, I understand that some players like that playstyle, however can the devs add or adjust other playstyles to be on par with bleed specs.

I really do enjoy the game alot, however if the above suggestions were brought to full fruition, the game would be at the top.

Ranting game combat without fully understanding or knowing it...

GG

Not sure what you are saying? What part of the game combat is not known? Please name one viable build, skill setup that doesn't involve a DoT. Don't bother, I'm pretty sure you can't. Thanks for the bump though.

Rungar

my tank doesnt use any dots.. but he does have 1.5k dps. lol.

Cadbury

Mintaka5 wrote: »

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laksikus wrote: »

spamming 1 skill in PvE should do wxactly what it does now. mediocore dps

Yeah? What do we do while we wait for everything else to cool down or cast?

Get a better rotation

Kingslayer513

ezikeo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

ezikeo wrote: »

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

If you are playing ESO with a static rotation instead of playing dynamically, then you are absolutely playing the game wrong and gimping yourself on damage. Endgame is all about dynamic skill usage.

Please state your "Dynamic" skill usage and rotation. Because I am pretty certain you are pressing the same skills in an order, which makes it static. Arguably you can state that adding "Grim Focus" can make your rotation more dynamic, however thats still debatable.

Nope, you've got it all wrong. Since you're referring to nightblade, let's take magblade as an example. The only "static" part is right when you begin the fight/parse. Buff up, Channeled Acceleration, Destro ult then bar swap to lay down WoE and crippling grasp, bar swap back to lay down twisting path and then begin using your spammable. Everything beyond this point is dynamic. Firing bow proc is highest priority along with keeping all buffs up 100%, next priority is keeping up WoE (if you have maelstrom staff), then next priority is keeping up twisting path, below that is crippling grasp. If you're not putting up buffs or dots, then you're LA weaving your spammable. The times don't match up on everything, so you're constantly bar swapping to reapply stuff when it drops based on priority. You will not hit 50k+ dps using a static rotation, everything in endgame is a dynamic rotation and that's not even talking about raid mechanics and different skill usage specific to each trial.

ezikeo

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

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ezikeo wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

ezikeo wrote: »

At the moment, doing a heavy dot build where you are constantly clipping your own dots makes no logical sense, in any other game this would be a huge DPS loss.
Pressing 1 thur 5 and swapping weapons and pressing 1-5 again isn't engaging nor is it hard, don't lie to yourself. WoWs combat is far more engaging, where everything you press makes more sense and had fluidity.

If you are playing ESO with a static rotation instead of playing dynamically, then you are absolutely playing the game wrong and gimping yourself on damage. Endgame is all about dynamic skill usage.

Please state your "Dynamic" skill usage and rotation. Because I am pretty certain you are pressing the same skills in an order, which makes it static. Arguably you can state that adding "Grim Focus" can make your rotation more dynamic, however thats still debatable.

Nope, you've got it all wrong. Since you're referring to nightblade, let's take magblade as an example. The only "static" part is right when you begin the fight/parse. Buff up, Channeled Acceleration, Destro ult then bar swap to lay down WoE and crippling grasp, bar swap back to lay down twisting path and then begin using your spammable. Everything beyond this point is dynamic. Firing bow proc is highest priority along with keeping all buffs up 100%, next priority is keeping up WoE (if you have maelstrom staff), then next priority is keeping up twisting path, below that is crippling grasp. If you're not putting up buffs or dots, then you're LA weaving your spammable. The times don't match up on everything, so you're constantly bar swapping to reapply stuff when it drops based on priority. You will not hit 50k+ dps using a static rotation, everything in endgame is a dynamic rotation and that's not even talking about raid mechanics and different skill usage specific to each trial.

Everything you just stated doesn't make your rotation dynamic other than "Grim Focus" or its morphs, which I stated earlier it being somewhat dynamic(with light attacks missing, which adds a RNG aspect), I'm sorry if you don't understand the definition of dynamic or static. You are stating when a "buff" or "debuff" drops, which is set on a timer. Your actions are still on a predetermined rotation, hence your use of the word "priority". You literally presented a static rotation, calling it dynamic.