Nothing was done to balance Dual Wield enchantments.

montiferus · October 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I am not saying its not strong, but its no longer broken to the point of being ridiculous. It has been effectively nerfed by half of what it was last week. Enchants still got an overall buff this patch, but I no longer think it is broken. There is a hard counter with purge.

.

Purge is no counter unless you run in a zerg.

vyrzeden · October 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

vyrzeden wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@vyrzeden
Ah, so comfort keeps you from actually using it.

Conveniently ignoring the second part of my response? That's fine. But please go ahead and explain to all the vet tanks for HM trials and such why their enchants should be cut in half so your PvP experience is better. Go ahead, I'll wait.

I mean is this an honest question?

Because you can't be serious. No one is so blitheringly mindless to suggest that something as simple as moving a glyph from a tank to a DD isn't worth the gigantic quality of life in PVP.

Right?

Please list all the DDs you know that run crushing and weakening enchants in PvE, and then list those the would willingly do so for the sake of PvP damage QoL. Maybe I am wrong after all.

EDIT: and yes, offtanks can cover these in trials and likely already do.

Juhasow · October 2018

Make it that only ground based AoE DoT weapon abilities can proc enchantments from back bar. That would mean only blockade from destro staff and hail from bow could do that which means barely anything changes for PvE and in PvP it would be less potent but still possible to proc enchantment from back bar but with less control over it.

Bergzorn · October 2018

current score dual wield back bar vs resto staff back bar:

2:0

Didgerion · October 2018

As a temporary solution please disable the enchant proc on the second dual wield weapon. That I call a fair fight.

Right now dual wield have an unfair advantage.

HappyElephant · October 2018

Shhhhh!

Why do we make so much noise when we get extra DPS?

If we had kept quiet we would still have the extra DPS/sustain from Mechanical Acuity/Sloads to add to the current juicy enchants buff. Content like vCR, vFL, vBRP would be accessible to more people.

Why make life harder for ourselves. I would pick easy over hard any day.

I say keep a low profile and enjoy the extra DPS.

usmcjdking · October 2018

vyrzeden wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

vyrzeden wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@vyrzeden
Ah, so comfort keeps you from actually using it.

Conveniently ignoring the second part of my response? That's fine. But please go ahead and explain to all the vet tanks for HM trials and such why their enchants should be cut in half so your PvP experience is better. Go ahead, I'll wait.

I mean is this an honest question?

Because you can't be serious. No one is so blitheringly mindless to suggest that something as simple as moving a glyph from a tank to a DD isn't worth the gigantic quality of life in PVP.

Right?

Please list all the DDs you know that run crushing and weakening enchants in PvE, and then list those the would willingly do so for the sake of PvP damage QoL. Maybe I am wrong after all.

EDIT: and yes, offtanks can cover these in trials and likely already do.

If you aren't experienced in both arenas to see the value of adjusting the game as required then you aren't experienced and probably shouldn't be in this thread.

Qbiken · October 2018

Swomp23 wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

All these dual enchanters i’ve ran into in BG’s are glass cannons. If you have any sort of healer or defense you walk all over them.

I think people are just upset they don’t have more defensive slotted.

I'm pretty surprised by that. I was certain those people would run heavy armor. I mean, there's not really any reason to run medium armor with a proc build (because Torugs is definitely a proc set). Unless weapon enchants scale with weapon damage? Or can weapon enchants crit, as opposed to set procs?

I mean, even Alcast's build is using heavy armor and Troll King, and it's probably the build that people are the most likely to copy.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-pvp-build2/

Torug, proc-set? lol

vyrzeden · October 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

vyrzeden wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

vyrzeden wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@vyrzeden
Ah, so comfort keeps you from actually using it.

Conveniently ignoring the second part of my response? That's fine. But please go ahead and explain to all the vet tanks for HM trials and such why their enchants should be cut in half so your PvP experience is better. Go ahead, I'll wait.

I mean is this an honest question?

Because you can't be serious. No one is so blitheringly mindless to suggest that something as simple as moving a glyph from a tank to a DD isn't worth the gigantic quality of life in PVP.

Right?

Please list all the DDs you know that run crushing and weakening enchants in PvE, and then list those the would willingly do so for the sake of PvP damage QoL. Maybe I am wrong after all.

EDIT: and yes, offtanks can cover these in trials and likely already do.

If you aren't experienced in both arenas to see the value of adjusting the game as required then you aren't experienced and probably shouldn't be in this thread.

Well that didn't take long. How's the list coming?

Pelican · October 2018

I don't see why people are defending PVE. Many groups are able to SKIP VET TRIAL MECHANICS simply because DPS is too high to even bother about mechanics. How would a slight nerf to pve dps even affect the game? Ask some of the top tier PVE groups, I'm sure they would agree PVE has too much dps atm

usmcjdking · October 2018

vyrzeden wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

vyrzeden wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

vyrzeden wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@vyrzeden
Ah, so comfort keeps you from actually using it.

Conveniently ignoring the second part of my response? That's fine. But please go ahead and explain to all the vet tanks for HM trials and such why their enchants should be cut in half so your PvP experience is better. Go ahead, I'll wait.

I mean is this an honest question?

Because you can't be serious. No one is so blitheringly mindless to suggest that something as simple as moving a glyph from a tank to a DD isn't worth the gigantic quality of life in PVP.

Right?

Please list all the DDs you know that run crushing and weakening enchants in PvE, and then list those the would willingly do so for the sake of PvP damage QoL. Maybe I am wrong after all.

EDIT: and yes, offtanks can cover these in trials and likely already do.

If you aren't experienced in both arenas to see the value of adjusting the game as required then you aren't experienced and probably shouldn't be in this thread.

Well that didn't take long. How's the list coming?

I mean if a tank could no longer run crushing, then someone would run crushing. I don't need to list anyone who would do it because anyone who wanted to justify their raid slot would be willing to do it. Do people willingly change from Force Pulse to Crushing Shock? Or slot Soul Siphon? That's just the name of the game baby.

Go back to whatever hole you came from. We a little bit past VAA when measuring our raiders capabilities to adapt.

vyrzeden · October 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

vyrzeden wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

vyrzeden wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

vyrzeden wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@vyrzeden
Ah, so comfort keeps you from actually using it.

Conveniently ignoring the second part of my response? That's fine. But please go ahead and explain to all the vet tanks for HM trials and such why their enchants should be cut in half so your PvP experience is better. Go ahead, I'll wait.

I mean is this an honest question?

Because you can't be serious. No one is so blitheringly mindless to suggest that something as simple as moving a glyph from a tank to a DD isn't worth the gigantic quality of life in PVP.

Right?

Please list all the DDs you know that run crushing and weakening enchants in PvE, and then list those the would willingly do so for the sake of PvP damage QoL. Maybe I am wrong after all.

EDIT: and yes, offtanks can cover these in trials and likely already do.

If you aren't experienced in both arenas to see the value of adjusting the game as required then you aren't experienced and probably shouldn't be in this thread.

Well that didn't take long. How's the list coming?

I mean if a tank could no longer run crushing, then someone would run crushing. I don't need to list anyone who would do it because anyone who wanted to justify their raid slot would be willing to do it. Do people willingly change from Force Pulse to Crushing Shock? Or slot Soul Siphon? That's just the name of the game baby.

Go back to whatever hole you came from. We a little bit past VAA when measuring our raiders capabilities to adapt.

And this one is done, name calling isn't needed for a civil discussion. Ignored.

usmcjdking · October 2018

Say stupid stuff, win stupid prizes.

HappyElephant · October 2018

Pelican wrote: »

I don't see why people are defending PVE. Many groups are able to SKIP VET TRIAL MECHANICS simply because DPS is too high to even bother about mechanics. How would a slight nerf to pve dps even affect the game? Ask some of the top tier PVE groups, I'm sure they would agree PVE has too much dps atm

I can only speak for vMA and it requires knowing the mechanics

vyrzeden · October 2018

Pelican wrote: »

I don't see why people are defending PVE. Many groups are able to SKIP VET TRIAL MECHANICS simply because DPS is too high to even bother about mechanics. How would a slight nerf to pve dps even affect the game? Ask some of the top tier PVE groups, I'm sure they would agree PVE has too much dps atm

I made such a suggestion in this thread by adjusting the cooldown timers of the weapon damage enchantments, if the DPS is indeed deemed to high. This would equally affect PvP and PvE (at least on paper) without altering other enchantment uses like those for tanking. It would effectively nerf those builds though that don't or can't take advantage of the change to weapon-based DoT abilities, which is basically Resto and (ironically) SnB.

Not advocating for it though, the twin slashes change may well be enough.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2018

Swomp23 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I think the change was pretty darn reasonable if I am being honest. It was fast and more importantly, specific to the problem at hand. Last week, 1 rending slashes would give me 10 enchant procs like clockwork. Today i get 5 (sometimes 6). That is on par with what magic can do with flame reach or what a bow user can do with PI. Both magic and stam classes if they build for it can each proc one enchant per second on average, which at least is balanced.

I am not saying its not strong, but its no longer broken to the point of being ridiculous. It has been effectively nerfed by half of what it was last week. Enchants still got an overall buff this patch, but I no longer think it is broken. There is a hard counter with purge.

As for you Magic users, all I can say is find a way to put flame reach on your back bar with an infused master's staff and your favorite enchant. The pressure is real.

From what I understand from reading all those posts (because I'm on console and can't test it yet), with dual wield you can still proc 10 weapon enchants in 10 seconds (about the duration of twin slashes) if you keep attacking with your dual wield bar. With a 2 handed weapon, you are limited to 5.
Could someone please confirm that?

I will do some testing when I get home. I am actually not sure what you would get if you cast rending, with deadly cloak, and spam melee light attacks. Or more realistically, cast rending and spam steel tornado.

I will say this: assuming the setup gives you 10 ticks, it’s still very different than casting rending and retreating to a safe distance for the same result.

I do know that both magic and Stam users not using any DW weapons can get an average of one enchant tick per second if they back bar a dot (Dest Reach or PI) and spam attacks on your front bar.

For example if I back bar reach and LA weave FP on my front bar for the duration, I get 10 procs total (sometimes 11).

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2018

Cronopoly wrote: »

Looking at post adjustment: Some of us/you cannot understand what is going on until you see it exactly occurring. Hence I'm showing it. (Not calling it OP or balanced, just here it is) DW Torugs on 6M dummy and I'm no where near Pen cap etc for this test. Wearing Impen Shacklebreaker/Torugs gear near 30K Stam and 3.2 WD approx.

Hit 6M Target Dummy with only Rending Slashes one attack and backed away.
DW POISON/DISEASE)

Same as above but swapped weapons around and activated Blade Cloak on Backbar prior to the 1 attack on front bar Rending Slashes.
FRONT POISON/SHOCK
BACK DISEASE/FLAME

It is what it is.

If I am reading that right, in the second test (double DW, and dots on both bars), you got 11 procs in 13.5 seconds. That’s on par with what you can do without DW at this point.

It looks like your rending fell off for the last 4 seconds (makes sense based on skill duration) assuming you could reapply perfectly, you would have got 2 more procs in that time frame. That would average 1/second, which again I can do with 2H/bow or double destro.

Powerful, but balanced.

_Salty_ · October 2018

Im not setting foot in Cyrodiil till this gets adjusted.

MashmalloMan · October 2018

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/443598/adjustments-to-how-weapon-enchants-and-poisons-trigger#latest

Single Target DoT's won't proc enchants anymore. The crying worked

vyrzeden · October 2018

Guess that means twin slashes wasn't enough then. Not surprised, but glad they didn't whack weapon enchants/infused/torugs as whole.

Cronopoly · October 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

snip

If I am reading that right, in the second test (double DW, and dots on both bars), you got 11 procs in 13.5 seconds. That’s on par with what you can do without DW at this point.

It looks like your rending fell off for the last 4 seconds (makes sense based on skill duration) assuming you could reapply perfectly, you would have got 2 more procs in that time frame. That would average 1/second, which again I can do with 2H/bow or double destro.

Powerful, but balanced.

This is on my PVP Nightblade. I'll next see what my typical rotation might look like with Poison Injection /Ambush / Incap / Heavy Attack. With the adjustment however I'm going to put Bow back in there.

I had forgot the Lethal Arrow (Snipe) is the paltry Poison Status Effect. Basically does nothing but pop stealthers but trifling damage. Jokes on me...See below) Poison Injection of course is the real Dot.

It is what it is...

HappyElephant · October 2018

Marshall1289 wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/443598/adjustments-to-how-weapon-enchants-and-poisons-trigger#latest

Single Target DoT's won't proc enchants anymore. The crying worked

Darn! We are back to NerfMire

Cronopoly · October 2018

HappyElephant wrote: »

Marshall1289 wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/443598/adjustments-to-how-weapon-enchants-and-poisons-trigger#latest

Single Target DoT's won't proc enchants anymore. The crying worked

Darn! We are back to NerfMire

Thanks for Info, Yeah I just tried DW/Bow and did 100K damage with (2 attacks+Blade Cloak in range) Poison Injection, and Rending.

Galalin · October 2018

Because ZoS wants everyone to be Stam. Game is an utter joke. Sub canceled and i'm just gonna use all the cheese whenever i feel like it. Game has gone to *** anyhow

firedrgn · October 2018

They just patched it. Problem solved .

Feanor · October 2018

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

The issue is still fundamental. It’s so much free DPS. It contradicts every dev comment about the choice between offense and defense ever made. 2k steady PvP DPS is a lot.

BNOC · October 2018

Pelican wrote: »

You guys are effectively killing the concept of ability combos to deal high damage by implementing broken mechanics that allow for lazy and overpowered damage

That sums it up.

It's pure laziness and is surely designed around the lazy, meta-chasing players that cannot compete without crutches. The same kind of people that perpetuate 'Lower the ceiling, raise the floor' across the forums.

Strong players will take advantage of it, sure, but not in numbers close to the average/bad player that needs assistance turned on.

SaintSubwayy · October 2018

Pelican wrote: »

And don't tell me dual wield enchant nerfs will affect PVE dps. Right now DPS is broken strong in PVE and many good groups are able to skip vet trial mechanics with 100k+ DPS per player, it wouldn't hurt PVE one bit. https://youtu.be/7_92NppBv9I
Just see for yourself.

OK where on earth did you come up with that number....100k DPS / player would end up with 800k Groupdmg thats just unlogical af, except for Huge addgroups...and there the "problem" lies within the no aoe Cap change.

The only high DMG in this fight comes from the Burst , when the boss is able to get damaged, and all aoes are already laid down, in Combo with WM and groupbuffs.
Furthermore you compare PVE only with the Best DPS setup group, and best players prob arround the world.

Kanar · October 2018

So the fix is what the PvPers wanted (dots don't proc enchants) but does nothing to address the DW enchant advantage. There's still a core imbalance but likely zos won't address it any further, so PvE 2h is still SoL; it's at the worst spot it has been in over a year.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw

The issue is still fundamental. It’s so much free DPS. It contradicts every dev comment about the choice between offense and defense ever made. 2k steady PvP DPS is a lot.

I agree to both of those statement. It’s a fundamental game mechanic and it’s a lot of damage, no question. What is upsetting is that it’s been that way on PTS, that was the time to make the change. All the info was there, and it was talked about at length.

The PTS is the place for fundamental changes. Not live a week after people have sunk resources into a new build. I agree that the the DW procs were unbalanced and a change was justified. But then to 24 hours later say, meh, we aren’t done. Is frustrating. I already built around that change and now I need to do it again.

As to being strong. Well no arguments here. That said we have seen high damage metas before. As long as no one has a clear advantage (after removing DW I think that was the case) it can still be balanced.

I just think it’s inappropriate to say on PTS, here is the new meta. Yeah we hear you it’s strong but we are gonna roll with it anyway. Then a week later it, JK. Sorry you blew all those mats on the new build.

This is not coming from a stamina player. This is coming from someone who primarily plays magic in PvP.