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Nothing was done to balance Dual Wield enchantments.

  • vyrzeden
    vyrzeden
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    Ulfgarde wrote: »
    vyrzeden wrote: »
    Buzo wrote: »
    @vyrzeden
    Don‘t you think in organized HM trial groups someone else can apply the other enchant?

    Your PvE comfort ruins others PvP experience. I like the suggestion of the shield having a weapon trait alot, the stat imbalance while bar swapping was always nonsense.

    Still dodgy, not surprised.

    Anyway, as an actual constructive solution to the "problem", simply increase the base cooldown on damage enchants if they are overperforming. This way torugs and infused don't need to be nerfed and overall enchant damage can be adjusted to better fit whatever model is expected. And since damage enchants already have different base cooldowns from things like crusher and weakening, we don't even have to nerf those to mess with tanks. As an added bonus, this would be equally impacted in PvE and PvP if the damage is out of line.

    See? Was that really so hard (you don't have to respond, I know the answer)?
    How would making enchants nerfed overall make any difference? The issue isn't cool down you realize that; it's how you're getting free damage from using minimal skills. Enchants were fine until 1. This change that lets dots fire enchants on weapon skills 2. The off bar change from wolf hunter that enabled even more glyphs.

    The change you listed would more likely kill enchants than actually make them work properly. This patch effectively changed very little to the actual problem.

    Note that I stated "if they are overperforming". Perhaps they are inline with exactly what the devs want now, sans bug fixes?
  • Swomp23
    Swomp23
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    twofaced wrote: »
    I looks like some dudes didn't even read changes. :D
    Nothing was changed because they changed a bug. A BUG which allowed you to fire both enchants with single hit (you do realize that twin slashes hit with both weapon right?)

    Enchants will still proc twice on initial hit. But after, each DoT tick will only proc 1 enchant, instead of both. If you want both your enchants to proc, you have to keep attacking instead of going full turtle mode and letting twin slashes (and cloak on back bar) killing your opponent.
    XBox One - NA - 600 CP
  • reprosal
    reprosal
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    vyrzeden wrote: »
    reprosal wrote: »
    I am at work right now but can anyone verify if razor caltrops alternates 2 enchants on the ticks as it procs on a per second basis?

    Caltrops doesn't proc weapon enchants since it is not a weapon attack, it's an assault skill.

    I thought all abilities procced enchants now. Am I mistaken? If so, disregard...
  • Ulfgarde
    Ulfgarde
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    vyrzeden wrote: »
    Ulfgarde wrote: »
    vyrzeden wrote: »
    Buzo wrote: »
    @vyrzeden
    Don‘t you think in organized HM trial groups someone else can apply the other enchant?

    Your PvE comfort ruins others PvP experience. I like the suggestion of the shield having a weapon trait alot, the stat imbalance while bar swapping was always nonsense.

    Still dodgy, not surprised.

    Anyway, as an actual constructive solution to the "problem", simply increase the base cooldown on damage enchants if they are overperforming. This way torugs and infused don't need to be nerfed and overall enchant damage can be adjusted to better fit whatever model is expected. And since damage enchants already have different base cooldowns from things like crusher and weakening, we don't even have to nerf those to mess with tanks. As an added bonus, this would be equally impacted in PvE and PvP if the damage is out of line.

    See? Was that really so hard (you don't have to respond, I know the answer)?
    How would making enchants nerfed overall make any difference? The issue isn't cool down you realize that; it's how you're getting free damage from using minimal skills. Enchants were fine until 1. This change that lets dots fire enchants on weapon skills 2. The off bar change from wolf hunter that enabled even more glyphs.

    The change you listed would more likely kill enchants than actually make them work properly. This patch effectively changed very little to the actual problem.

    Note that I stated "if they are overperforming". Perhaps they are inline with exactly what the devs want now, sans bug fixes?

    I mean you're 100% right that the devs actually wanted this type of gameplay. There's literally no other sensible explanation other than that. :D
    Very athletic eso player
    PC EU
  • vyrzeden
    vyrzeden
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    Ulfgarde wrote: »
    vyrzeden wrote: »
    Ulfgarde wrote: »
    vyrzeden wrote: »
    Buzo wrote: »
    @vyrzeden
    Don‘t you think in organized HM trial groups someone else can apply the other enchant?

    Your PvE comfort ruins others PvP experience. I like the suggestion of the shield having a weapon trait alot, the stat imbalance while bar swapping was always nonsense.

    Still dodgy, not surprised.

    Anyway, as an actual constructive solution to the "problem", simply increase the base cooldown on damage enchants if they are overperforming. This way torugs and infused don't need to be nerfed and overall enchant damage can be adjusted to better fit whatever model is expected. And since damage enchants already have different base cooldowns from things like crusher and weakening, we don't even have to nerf those to mess with tanks. As an added bonus, this would be equally impacted in PvE and PvP if the damage is out of line.

    See? Was that really so hard (you don't have to respond, I know the answer)?
    How would making enchants nerfed overall make any difference? The issue isn't cool down you realize that; it's how you're getting free damage from using minimal skills. Enchants were fine until 1. This change that lets dots fire enchants on weapon skills 2. The off bar change from wolf hunter that enabled even more glyphs.

    The change you listed would more likely kill enchants than actually make them work properly. This patch effectively changed very little to the actual problem.

    Note that I stated "if they are overperforming". Perhaps they are inline with exactly what the devs want now, sans bug fixes?

    I mean you're 100% right that the devs actually wanted this type of gameplay. There's literally no other sensible explanation other than that. :D

    Note that I want a fair/balanced game just like anyone else. If PvP is a terrible experience because of these changes, then I'm all for fixing it. But not at the expense of something else if there's a better solution, and it has nothing to do with "comfort". Then again, everyone assumed shields were fine...so who knows.
  • Bhelen
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    The only way to fix it is to revert back to the way it worked in Summerset with back bar and dots not procing weapon enchants. But that would ruin their target dummy parses so they probably won't do it.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Royaji wrote: »
    Buzo wrote: »
    Royaji wrote: »
    Sometimes I really pity the guys at ZOS.

    A massive overhaul is done: "ZOS why do you have to ruin everything?!!11! Do small changes and see what happens!!1!!"
    A small change is done: "ZOS why is everything still ruined?!?!11? You are not doing enough, we need a bigger overhaul or PvP will die in a week!!1!!"

    They really can't win, huh?

    But the way it is now DW totally outperforms any resource free damage source in the game. Decreasing enchant potency on 1 handed weapons, yes also sNb, is the most logical and balance restoring solution.

    Nope. If you insist on parity between two-handers and dual wield it is only fair to expect the same for one-handed and shield. You've ever noticed how noone really runs anything except infused with it? Having half a trait/enchant is just not worth it. And no, the defensive trait/enchant from shield does not make up for that.

    I can only consider halving one-handed enchants if shields actually get offensive traits on them and slotting two of the same - like, two infused crushers - means having just one full power enchant like it works on two handers. Otherwise we are just tilting the balance the other way.

    With s/b, you get access to a full armor enchant and full armor trait. That is the trade off for half a weapon enchantment and trait. If you half enchants, it will make ice staff tanking more viable.
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    31k free damage over 13 seconds after battle spirit. 2.300 PvP DPS without investing anything and hitting 2 buttons. It’s totally fixed and nothing wrong. #CombatBalance 2018

    Thanks for the test and showing it @Cronopoly
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  • Biro123
    Biro123
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    Didn't they change blade-cloak a few patches ago specifically so it WOULDN'T proc enchants from the other bar?
    Edited by Biro123 on October 30, 2018 9:28AM
    Minalan owes me a beer.

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  • John_Falstaff
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    So, everyone would be standing and doing nothing while inside Cloak radius? That's already two skills cast and Cloak is an AoE that should be avoided.

    Seems like it only bothers a handful of PvP people (even though they already won't see cancerous double DW builds since slashes don't apply previous damage anymore). If that's not enough, I say - just disable enchantments in PvP through battle spirit.
  • Galarthor
    Galarthor
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    Devs are so short-sighted they need telescopes rather than glasses to fix their vision ...
  • Skander
    Skander
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    I've come to mind that the developers have no idea what they are doing.

    The first hypotesis was greed, but these changes aren't behind a paywall so this just gets me puzzled
    I meme, but my memes are so truthful they hurt
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    Want competitive pvp while being outnumbered? Tough luck, the devs clearly said you need to die in those situations
  • ImmortalCX
    ImmortalCX
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    Are there any skills that cleanse or purge enchants?
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @ImmortalCX , purge. It will purge weapon dots themselves, I think, and enchants won't be firing too (since they're proc'd by weapon abilities).
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    Sload: 850 oblivion damage every second for 6 seconds was deemed overpowered, and got nerfed.

    Today: 2141 oblivion damage every 2 seconds for as long as the DOT that procs them lasts. Any bets as to whether ZOS will consider it overpowered?

    Screenshot-20181029-195231.png

  • reprosal
    reprosal
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Sload: 850 oblivion damage every second for 6 seconds was deemed overpowered, and got nerfed.

    Today: 2141 oblivion damage every 2 seconds for as long as the DOT that procs them lasts. Any bets as to whether ZOS will consider it overpowered?

    Screenshot-20181029-195231.png

    All these dual enchanters i’ve ran into in BG’s are glass cannons. If you have any sort of healer or defense you walk all over them.

    I think people are just upset they don’t have more defensive slotted.
  • JinMori
    JinMori
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    The problem is that rending slashed can proc both enchants at once, granting you too much burst, make it so rending can only proc 1 at a time.
  • vyrzeden
    vyrzeden
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    JinMori wrote: »
    The problem is that rending slashed can proc both enchants at once, granting you too much burst, make it so rending can only proc 1 at a time.

    Patch 4.2.6 did exactly this. I'm not sure if the very first hit procs both, but the dot only procs 1.


    General
    Fixed an issue where both of your Dual Wield weapon enchantments were proccing from a single damage from Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or Weapon Ability.
    Developer Comment:
    Spoiler
    Abilities that deal damage multiple times with a single cast, such as Flurry which has 5 hits or Twin Slashes which has 2 direct damage hits and several damage over time ticks, can proc both of your weapon enchantments over those hits. But each isolated instance of damage should only be able to proc one weapon enchantment at a time.
    Edited by vyrzeden on October 30, 2018 2:17PM
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @JinMori , that's initial burst (because of two upfront damage ticks). After that, only one enchant per damage tick (which is every 2 seconds).
  • Swomp23
    Swomp23
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    reprosal wrote: »
    All these dual enchanters i’ve ran into in BG’s are glass cannons. If you have any sort of healer or defense you walk all over them.

    I think people are just upset they don’t have more defensive slotted.

    I'm pretty surprised by that. I was certain those people would run heavy armor. I mean, there's not really any reason to run medium armor with a proc build (because Torugs is definitely a proc set). Unless weapon enchants scale with weapon damage? Or can weapon enchants crit, as opposed to set procs?

    I mean, even Alcast's build is using heavy armor and Troll King, and it's probably the build that people are the most likely to copy.
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-pvp-build2/
    Edited by Swomp23 on October 30, 2018 2:53PM
    XBox One - NA - 600 CP
  • vyrzeden
    vyrzeden
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    Swomp23 wrote: »
    reprosal wrote: »
    All these dual enchanters i’ve ran into in BG’s are glass cannons. If you have any sort of healer or defense you walk all over them.

    I think people are just upset they don’t have more defensive slotted.

    I'm pretty surprised by that. I was certain those people would run heavy armor. I mean, there's not really any reason to run medium armor with a proc build (because Torugs is definitely a proc set). Unless weapon enchants scale with weapon damage? Or can weapon enchants crit, as opposed to set procs?

    I mean, even Alcast's build is using heavy armor and Troll King, and it's probably the build that people are the most likely to copy.
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-pvp-build2/

    Weapon enchants can crit, don't think they scale with weapon damage (but CPs affect them like proc sets).
  • Swomp23
    Swomp23
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    vyrzeden wrote: »
    Swomp23 wrote: »
    reprosal wrote: »
    All these dual enchanters i’ve ran into in BG’s are glass cannons. If you have any sort of healer or defense you walk all over them.

    I think people are just upset they don’t have more defensive slotted.

    I'm pretty surprised by that. I was certain those people would run heavy armor. I mean, there's not really any reason to run medium armor with a proc build (because Torugs is definitely a proc set). Unless weapon enchants scale with weapon damage? Or can weapon enchants crit, as opposed to set procs?

    I mean, even Alcast's build is using heavy armor and Troll King, and it's probably the build that people are the most likely to copy.
    https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-pvp-build2/

    Weapon enchants can crit, don't think they scale with weapon damage (but CPs affect them like proc sets).

    TY
    XBox One - NA - 600 CP
  • ImmortalCX
    ImmortalCX
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    @ImmortalCX , purge. It will purge weapon dots themselves, I think, and enchants won't be firing too (since they're proc'd by weapon abilities).

    Maybe the new meta will be to run with a purge healer.

    Sounds legit.

  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    reprosal wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Sload: 850 oblivion damage every second for 6 seconds was deemed overpowered, and got nerfed.

    Today: 2141 oblivion damage every 2 seconds for as long as the DOT that procs them lasts. Any bets as to whether ZOS will consider it overpowered?

    Screenshot-20181029-195231.png

    All these dual enchanters i’ve ran into in BG’s are glass cannons. If you have any sort of healer or defense you walk all over them.

    I think people are just upset they don’t have more defensive slotted.

    1, its not a dual enchant - that screenshot is of a player using a 2H axe on backbar and proccing brawler DOT which triggers oblivion enchant every 2 seconds, effectively making it more powerful than the pre-nerf sload.
    2, your defense is completely irrelevant - its oblivion damage, it will hit you for exactly the same regardless of what defense you slotted.
    3, you don't have to be a glass cannon to do the damage - since it is a fixed amount, you will do it even as an extremely tanky build. All you need it torug set and an infused backbar weapon that has some sort of DOT ability.
  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    I think the change was pretty darn reasonable if I am being honest. It was fast and more importantly, specific to the problem at hand. Last week, 1 rending slashes would give me 10 enchant procs like clockwork. Today i get 5 (sometimes 6). That is on par with what magic can do with flame reach or what a bow user can do with PI. Both magic and stam classes if they build for it can each proc one enchant per second on average, which at least is balanced.

    I am not saying its not strong, but its no longer broken to the point of being ridiculous. It has been effectively nerfed by half of what it was last week. Enchants still got an overall buff this patch, but I no longer think it is broken. There is a hard counter with purge.

    As for you Magic users, all I can say is find a way to put flame reach on your back bar with an infused master's staff and your favorite enchant. The pressure is real.
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  • Swomp23
    Swomp23
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    I think the change was pretty darn reasonable if I am being honest. It was fast and more importantly, specific to the problem at hand. Last week, 1 rending slashes would give me 10 enchant procs like clockwork. Today i get 5 (sometimes 6). That is on par with what magic can do with flame reach or what a bow user can do with PI. Both magic and stam classes if they build for it can each proc one enchant per second on average, which at least is balanced.

    I am not saying its not strong, but its no longer broken to the point of being ridiculous. It has been effectively nerfed by half of what it was last week. Enchants still got an overall buff this patch, but I no longer think it is broken. There is a hard counter with purge.

    As for you Magic users, all I can say is find a way to put flame reach on your back bar with an infused master's staff and your favorite enchant. The pressure is real.

    From what I understand from reading all those posts (because I'm on console and can't test it yet), with dual wield you can still proc 10 weapon enchants in 10 seconds (about the duration of twin slashes) if you keep attacking with your dual wield bar. With a 2 handed weapon, you are limited to 5.
    Could someone please confirm that?
    Edited by Swomp23 on October 30, 2018 4:48PM
    XBox One - NA - 600 CP
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    vyrzeden wrote: »
    Buzo wrote: »
    @vyrzeden
    Ah, so comfort keeps you from actually using it.

    Conveniently ignoring the second part of my response? That's fine. But please go ahead and explain to all the vet tanks for HM trials and such why their enchants should be cut in half so your PvP experience is better. Go ahead, I'll wait.

    I mean is this an honest question?

    Because you can't be serious. No one is so blitheringly mindless to suggest that something as simple as moving a glyph from a tank to a DD isn't worth the gigantic quality of life in PVP.

    Right?
    0331
    0602
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