DPS DPS DPS DPS

Royaji · October 2018

Rungar wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

dps has become completely unbalanced and thus everyone is or is trying to be dps.

a specced tank does maybe 5kdps, a specced healer maybe 10k dps and someone who knows how to dps in this game its 50k? 10 times the tank and 5 times the healer.

the Light attack weaving system has alot to do with it but no one can seem to come to terms with it.

the dynamic should look like this

tank 10k
healer 15k
dps 30k

a 3:2:1 ratio for properly specced roles. Is light attack weaving really worth waiting 30-60 minutes in the group finder.

simple fixes here

1) link 1h&shield to health not stam. Thatll easily balance tanks at 10k.
2) add in dps cost reductions for healers when they cast a heal spell. "your next dps spell x costs x less after a crit heal to a fellow group member who is not you". 15K easy balance
3) get rid of the light attack weave and make it a free spammable on the GCD. Got your 30k right there.

or enjoy your wait for a fake role of your choice.

You are waiting for fake roles because average DPS in a pug is too low. There are enough healers and quite a bit of tanks in the game. They just don't queue in GF because noone wants to carry a "fake-DD". And getting a group in a guild is much easier for them.

your excuse addresses nothing. Are you saying people shouldnt use the groupfinder?

I'm saying that group finder has a significantly different issue and needs a massive overhaul. Maybe along the lines of those notice board ideas where you can create a group and specify the requirments before posting.

But the easy, right here and now solution is to join a guild and get your group through it.

rexagamemnon · October 2018

yes I notice it to, and to admit im guilty sometimes as well. sometimes just want get I and get out for the daily dungeon or experience reward so I can do more important stuff. but it does bother me a lot when it happens on the dungeon dlc's. you have guys that pull a billion DPS and then get mad at you when you only pull 20-30k, which is still good in my book, that pop a blood vessel cause you "are not good" I had a guy tell me that I should go kill myself. all over a game. I was tanking, very effectively I might add, and he was angry he kept dying. he just sucked.
im also shy so I do not really talk much in the random dungeon chat.

themaddaedra · October 2018

I find the problem within amount of daily quests and the need to grind. With every single patch we get more and more and more daily quests (then for some unknown reason ZoS puts a limit to the amount you can do).

Thinking everybody has stuff they want in dailies (keys/motifs/achievements/collectibles...) people want to do as much as dailies and they rush. Also good to remember that there are more stuff to do once you finish dailies.

I would love to see more improvement and fun being added to existing content instead of bringing new broken stuff all the time, but i highly doubt ZoS would ever go that way. It's like they release and never look back. Vast majority of sources are going to the next content all the time.

kathandira · October 2018

These discussions always end up being the following

Speed Runners: If you want to take your time, create your own group and play the way you want to.

Casual Runners: If you want to fly through the dungeon, create your own group and play the way you want to.

There is no middle ground.

Mr_Walker · October 2018

Keylun wrote: »

I asked some people to wait for me whilst I hand in the quest for Volenfell. All left.

That's just rude.

Gargath · October 2018

And I'd love to see some day really good advices on all ZOS loading screens, telling people what it means to play fair and square, be polite, generous, offer time to others, restrain from being jerk and always first in everything.
A huge potential is wasted by some stupid lore messages everyone read for hundred times.

As for the plunder skulls and all those event runs, why not changing rules, you get the skull only if you are in group of at least 5 players and you are all in a fixed range. Everyone get 2 skulls if your group is 10 players and so on. Less lonesome farming things.

Rungar · October 2018

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Keylun wrote: »

I asked some people to wait for me whilst I hand in the quest for Volenfell. All left.

That's just rude.

i always wait around for a minute as ppl have done that to me as well.

VaranisArano · October 2018

kathandira wrote: »

These discussions always end up being the following

Speed Runners: If you want to take your time, create your own group and play the way you want to.

Casual Runners: If you want to fly through the dungeon, create your own group and play the way you want to.

There is no middle ground.

I think the middle ground, which I see on the majority of my random normal dungeon runs, goes something like this.

"Anyone doing the quest?"

If no, we're going to plow through everything, possibly skip bosses if there's not an event on, and finish the dungeon pretty quickly.

If yes, we'll wait for unavoidable dialogue and at the end of the dungeon, hit all the bosses, but we don't dawdle to listen to every line of NPC dialogue.

So if you want to rush, getting into a random group with a newbie isnt the best way to do that. If you want to linger and enjoy the NPC dialogue, a random group probably isnt the best choice either.

kathandira · October 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

These discussions always end up being the following

Speed Runners: If you want to take your time, create your own group and play the way you want to.

Casual Runners: If you want to fly through the dungeon, create your own group and play the way you want to.

There is no middle ground.

I think the middle ground, which I see on the majority of my random normal dungeon runs, goes something like this.

"Anyone doing the quest?"

If no, we're going to plow through everything, possibly skip bosses if there's not an event on, and finish the dungeon pretty quickly.

If yes, we'll wait for unavoidable dialogue and at the end of the dungeon, hit all the bosses, but we don't dawdle to listen to every line of NPC dialogue.

So if you want to rush, getting into a random group with a newbie isnt the best way to do that. If you want to linger and enjoy the NPC dialogue, a random group probably isnt the best choice either.

To be fair, that is how I treat things as well. But I think we might be in the minority of rational and patient people.

MartiniDaniels · October 2018

Royaji wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

dps has become completely unbalanced and thus everyone is or is trying to be dps.

a specced tank does maybe 5kdps, a specced healer maybe 10k dps and someone who knows how to dps in this game its 50k? 10 times the tank and 5 times the healer.

the Light attack weaving system has alot to do with it but no one can seem to come to terms with it.

the dynamic should look like this

tank 10k
healer 15k
dps 30k

a 3:2:1 ratio for properly specced roles. Is light attack weaving really worth waiting 30-60 minutes in the group finder.

simple fixes here

1) link 1h&shield to health not stam. Thatll easily balance tanks at 10k.
2) add in dps cost reductions for healers when they cast a heal spell. "your next dps spell x costs x less after a crit heal to a fellow group member who is not you". 15K easy balance
3) get rid of the light attack weave and make it a free spammable on the GCD. Got your 30k right there.

or enjoy your wait for a fake role of your choice.

You are waiting for fake roles because average DPS in a pug is too low. There are enough healers and quite a bit of tanks in the game. They just don't queue in GF because noone wants to carry a "fake-DD". And getting a group in a guild is much easier for them.

There are much less tanks then dps so they complete their daily and pledges and finish queueing, that’s all.

kathandira · October 2018

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

dps has become completely unbalanced and thus everyone is or is trying to be dps.

a specced tank does maybe 5kdps, a specced healer maybe 10k dps and someone who knows how to dps in this game its 50k? 10 times the tank and 5 times the healer.

the Light attack weaving system has alot to do with it but no one can seem to come to terms with it.

the dynamic should look like this

tank 10k
healer 15k
dps 30k

a 3:2:1 ratio for properly specced roles. Is light attack weaving really worth waiting 30-60 minutes in the group finder.

simple fixes here

1) link 1h&shield to health not stam. Thatll easily balance tanks at 10k.
2) add in dps cost reductions for healers when they cast a heal spell. "your next dps spell x costs x less after a crit heal to a fellow group member who is not you". 15K easy balance
3) get rid of the light attack weave and make it a free spammable on the GCD. Got your 30k right there.

or enjoy your wait for a fake role of your choice.

You are waiting for fake roles because average DPS in a pug is too low. There are enough healers and quite a bit of tanks in the game. They just don't queue in GF because noone wants to carry a "fake-DD". And getting a group in a guild is much easier for them.

There are much less tanks then dps so they complete their daily and pledges and finish queueing, that’s all.

The eternal MMO struggle. 20% Tanks, 20% Healers, 60% DPS. And i'm being generous on those Healer and Tank numbers.

Royaji · October 2018

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

dps has become completely unbalanced and thus everyone is or is trying to be dps.

a specced tank does maybe 5kdps, a specced healer maybe 10k dps and someone who knows how to dps in this game its 50k? 10 times the tank and 5 times the healer.

the Light attack weaving system has alot to do with it but no one can seem to come to terms with it.

the dynamic should look like this

tank 10k
healer 15k
dps 30k

a 3:2:1 ratio for properly specced roles. Is light attack weaving really worth waiting 30-60 minutes in the group finder.

simple fixes here

1) link 1h&shield to health not stam. Thatll easily balance tanks at 10k.
2) add in dps cost reductions for healers when they cast a heal spell. "your next dps spell x costs x less after a crit heal to a fellow group member who is not you". 15K easy balance
3) get rid of the light attack weave and make it a free spammable on the GCD. Got your 30k right there.

or enjoy your wait for a fake role of your choice.

You are waiting for fake roles because average DPS in a pug is too low. There are enough healers and quite a bit of tanks in the game. They just don't queue in GF because noone wants to carry a "fake-DD". And getting a group in a guild is much easier for them.

There are much less tanks then dps so they complete their daily and pledges and finish queueing, that’s all.

There is a significant number of healers and especially tanks who never touch groupfinder because they are unable to carry bad DDs. On the other hand a good DD can easily carry a bad tank/healer. Try it, it really doesn't take that long to find a tank for a guild run.

nigeltheclydesdale · October 2018

When I tank, I go on the basis "you pull it you tank it". I'm not sprinting in to taunt a boss out of stam just coz a dd wants to rush through it. If they die, they die. If they complain they get a crisp "don't aggro without me then"

Rungar · October 2018

your making the assumption thats theres nothing wrong except for the players but the reality is that these system arent working very well.

according to your logic just remove the groupfinder and the problems solved. Except the groupfinder is only a symptom so nothing will be solved.

MartiniDaniels · October 2018

Royaji wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

dps has become completely unbalanced and thus everyone is or is trying to be dps.

a specced tank does maybe 5kdps, a specced healer maybe 10k dps and someone who knows how to dps in this game its 50k? 10 times the tank and 5 times the healer.

the Light attack weaving system has alot to do with it but no one can seem to come to terms with it.

the dynamic should look like this

tank 10k
healer 15k
dps 30k

a 3:2:1 ratio for properly specced roles. Is light attack weaving really worth waiting 30-60 minutes in the group finder.

simple fixes here

1) link 1h&shield to health not stam. Thatll easily balance tanks at 10k.
2) add in dps cost reductions for healers when they cast a heal spell. "your next dps spell x costs x less after a crit heal to a fellow group member who is not you". 15K easy balance
3) get rid of the light attack weave and make it a free spammable on the GCD. Got your 30k right there.

or enjoy your wait for a fake role of your choice.

You are waiting for fake roles because average DPS in a pug is too low. There are enough healers and quite a bit of tanks in the game. They just don't queue in GF because noone wants to carry a "fake-DD". And getting a group in a guild is much easier for them.

There are much less tanks then dps so they complete their daily and pledges and finish queueing, that’s all.

There is a significant number of healers and especially tanks who never touch groupfinder because they are unable to carry bad DDs. On the other hand a good DD can easily carry a bad tank/healer. Try it, it really doesn't take that long to find a tank for a guild run.

It’s too much fuss to gather guild group for dailies - they may want to grind something for hours or they may be weak and you must carry them for long without option to kick or leave, well because we are from one guild. I join when somebody asked guild chat for help with 1 dungeon, and sometimes i call for help when somebody was kicked from pug group.
I don’t have so much time to complete pledges on all chars, so when i need to grind some set i simply use tank. If i need to gather perk points with new char it can be easily done in normals just switching to tanking gear which i store a lot.

Abigail · October 2018

I'm one of those "fake DDs." I run only equipment that can be crafted or picked up in zones, though I have gotten round to golding all but my jewelry. On top of that, in six months I've run only a few dungeons and they're basically all new to me. Worse, I'm a crap player; therefore, I never do group content because I'm a crap player and that makes me nervous (hands shake) and I become even more of a crap player. I did run normals and vets when I first started, as a healer, but I died a lot and I wasn't good at it. So I just stopped. I've been in one random daily -- got through it as dps -- but I did not understand the prison or boss's mechanics and the group had to carry me through a lot of it. They were also moving so quickly that I could not pick up the quests. My hands were shaking too badly for me to type and tell them. I knew I sucked completely. It was far from fun and I shall never run another group dungeon. Ever.

I don't blame other players or the game for my failures -- it's all on me. Ironically, I'm pretty careful about my builds and I can output 35K on my best alt. But when you suck at everything else, that doesn't matter much.

I only add this here by way of saying not all of us have a capacity to get gud in any elitist sense, or we're doing a dungeon for the first time and may need more patience and explanation from the group. When everyone wants to rush rush rush (and I do commiserate with those who've run dungeons 500 times) it's going to turn off a lot of new players and that will eventually kill this wonderful game by shear attrition of old and new players.

kathandira · October 2018

nigeltheclydesdale wrote: »

When I tank, I go on the basis "you pull it you tank it". I'm not sprinting in to taunt a boss out of stam just coz a dd wants to rush through it. If they die, they die. If they complain they get a crisp "don't aggro without me then"

On my DPS, if I am quite certain I can handle the boss, and I get the impression that the group is pretty easy going, i'll rush in.

But if I die, it was my own dumb fault. I'd never blame a tank for me over stepping my role and getting killed. I haven't had a tank send me hate mail for it yet fortunately. Instead, I find if I am doing this, the tank will join in and pull out his DPS weapon set and enjoy taking a break and having some fun being silly.

Disclaimer: I would only do this after at least 1/4 of the dungeon and I feel confident that it won't cause a problem for the group.

SpacemanSpiff1 · October 2018

I despise people that rush ahead pulling everything with no regard to the rest of the group. I want to get things done quickly too, but some people have quests and I'm stopping for heavy sacks and chests (bookshelves too if I'm still leveling).

Asardes · October 2018

What are social guilds about? I've only been in trade guilds (2-3 of them generally), for a limited period in a couple of PvE guilds, and for an even shorter period in a PvP guild. Most conversation I did revolved around the respective aspects ex. builds, skills (PvE/PvP), checking if anyone has encountered various bugs, providing alternate MM prices (in trade guilds). I used to run dungeons pretty regularly, and I actually did pledges almost every day for 1.5 years after hitting veteran ranks just after Orsinium launch and just before Morrowind launch, but nowadays I do that much less - except the current event - and as a result I communicate much less with other players. A maximum of 15-20 lines of text in guild/zone chat, focused on the issues mentioned above. For some reason I find it really hard lately to want to start a conversation about anything.

nigeltheclydesdale · October 2018

kathandira wrote: »

nigeltheclydesdale wrote: »

When I tank, I go on the basis "you pull it you tank it". I'm not sprinting in to taunt a boss out of stam just coz a dd wants to rush through it. If they die, they die. If they complain they get a crisp "don't aggro without me then"

On my DPS, if I am quite certain I can handle the boss, and I get the impression that the group is pretty easy going, i'll rush in.

But if I die, it was my own dumb fault. I'd never blame a tank for me over stepping my role and getting killed. I haven't had a tank send me hate mail for it yet fortunately. Instead, I find if I am doing this, the tank will join in and pull out his DPS weapon set and enjoy taking a break and having some fun being silly.

Disclaimer: I would only do this after at least 1/4 of the dungeon and I feel confident that it won't cause a problem for the group.

I don't hate tell. Just deliberately not rush to taunt. A nice leisurely stroll in, maybe pick some flowers talk to an NPC. I have the benefit of a quick queue pop if I leave the dungeon coz someone's rude

Odovacar · October 2018

Yeah that's why I run mainly with my guild buddies... If I run a PUG I shouldn't feel ashamed to want to look for HS or chests throughout. On the other hand It's funny to see when the player in the biggest rush gets pinned in a tight corridor with trash mobs surrounding them and after they die they start yelling at everyone...bruh

kathandira · October 2018

nigeltheclydesdale wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

nigeltheclydesdale wrote: »

When I tank, I go on the basis "you pull it you tank it". I'm not sprinting in to taunt a boss out of stam just coz a dd wants to rush through it. If they die, they die. If they complain they get a crisp "don't aggro without me then"

On my DPS, if I am quite certain I can handle the boss, and I get the impression that the group is pretty easy going, i'll rush in.

But if I die, it was my own dumb fault. I'd never blame a tank for me over stepping my role and getting killed. I haven't had a tank send me hate mail for it yet fortunately. Instead, I find if I am doing this, the tank will join in and pull out his DPS weapon set and enjoy taking a break and having some fun being silly.

Disclaimer: I would only do this after at least 1/4 of the dungeon and I feel confident that it won't cause a problem for the group.

I don't hate tell. Just deliberately not rush to taunt. A nice leisurely stroll in, maybe pick some flowers talk to an NPC. I have the benefit of a quick queue pop if I leave the dungeon coz someone's rude

I'll rush, but I will usually keep an eye on the group. It can go two ways.

1: If someone is just lagging behind, i'll wait for them. They might be doing the quest, and I don't want to rush too much to where they might miss part of the quest.

2: If they are simply not moving at all, i'll just keep moving.

I guess you can put me in the category of a considerate rusher?

MooseKnuckles88 · October 2018

When trying to queue for a random and waiting for 30 mins a dps feels a little stir crazy especially when they have multiple toons to level. Sure I could just be a tank or healer and insta-queue, but I'm not leveling a healer or tank. Which is why more dps are fake tanking and being off-healers. Also, I do all my crafting on my dps toon, this gives me something to do in the 30 mins I have to wait and fingers crossed I don't get a DLC.

PapaWeeb · October 2018

If you have a certain expectation of how dungeon runs want to go, go with friends. Can't expect pugs who maybe have an hour to play, or 14 characters to do writs on, to want to take it slow

Rungar · October 2018

the groupfinder is a core part of the game and what it does best is accentuates problems with other systems. Not using it is not a suitable solution.

Vuron · October 2018

I just came back after a 4 year break so might have a different perspective on some of these issues.

It seems that most of the problems are related to the group finder because you have everyone using the same tool, regardless of their objective. When you have high level players just looking to speed run for keys, lower levels looking to do content for the first time, and everyone in between using the same tool, it simply doesn't work as intended.

Of course, one of the solutions would be to hook up with guild mates, but that isn't always possible.

There need to be an easier way to find a group in the game. People sometime want to group for various reasons, whether its world bosses or dolmens like we've seen during this event, or just to run dungeons, quests or whatever. When the easiest way to get a group is to spam zone chat, something needs done.

After just being back a few weeks, I have noticed the huge impact that dailies have had on the game. It seems that most people are simply speed bouncing from daily to daily and this is what the game has become.

Having said all that, I'd be more than happy to help anyone that needs help. You need someone to spend an hour crawling through a normal dungeon than hit me up. Same for speed runs or gear farming or questing. I used to be a very hardcore gamer but I'm over that and now I just get on to have some fun.

@Vuron00

Cryptical · October 2018

No matter what solution is found, the dps-centric focus will remain in place for at least the next 2 years because zeni does not revisit existing content. For any reason other than an exploit.

A pain point was joining a group mid-dungeon and thus being stuck running it twice to complete the pledge. A solution of only requiring the final boss was found, and implemented. Were the existing dungeons revised to solve the pain point? No.

Still can’t walk out of bloodroot at the end.

The only exception to this ‘never look back’ rule is their addition of boss portals. So when you get shuttled into a pledge dungeon midway through and get stuck doing it twice, you don’t have to walk it twice too.

Shawn_PT · October 2018

I had some of this just last night. I'm leveling up a character that I made for the 10 Million stories event and didn't much bother touching since then. She's running with random drop items. She's a healer. She has low DPS. She's lvl 40 or so.

She needs some undaunted for the necrotic orbs. Queued late at night for random normal, no vet at lvl 40.

Blackheart pops up. Cool, I see the quest indicator, one more skill point for me. Except that everyone jumps into the water to skip ahead, someone even cast Rapids. I commented 'guess we're not doing the quest then.' No answer. I should have asked them to kick me or something but whatever. It's still some undaunted experience. I could have tried to stay back and get the quest NPC but it would probably mean that by the time I had killed the surrounding mobs, the group would be on the third boss.

Rushing forward, I tossed some heals but they were totally unnecessary, which brings us to another problem where healers are no longer wanted/needed but I digress.

Instead of healing I spent the entire dungeon running after the group, trying to get a hit on the bosses before they died. One of the fellows, possibly the tank, commented halfway that we were so far from the boss we didn't even get loot. Because mister selfish rushpants kept going on rapids, leaving the trash behind to hinder the rest of the group, and just mowing down the bosses.

It was a lame run. It was not fun for the rusher, it was no fun for the ones running behind. If you're so uber OP you can wipe the dungeon solo in 5 minutes, why use the finder? Solo it, get it done your way, get all the loot you want, and don't be a ***. I don't get it. I really don't.

Don't be that guy. It's the first step towards making ESO's community better as a whole.

MartiniDaniels · October 2018

Shawn_PT wrote: »

I had some of this just last night. I'm leveling up a character that I made for the 10 Million stories event and didn't much bother touching since then. She's running with random drop items. She's a healer. She has low DPS. She's lvl 40 or so.

She needs some undaunted for the necrotic orbs. Queued late at night for random normal, no vet at lvl 40.

Blackheart pops up. Cool, I see the quest indicator, one more skill point for me. Except that everyone jumps into the water to skip ahead, someone even cast Rapids. I commented 'guess we're not doing the quest then.' No answer. I should have asked them to kick me or something but whatever. It's still some undaunted experience. I could have tried to stay back and get the quest NPC but it would probably mean that by the time I had killed the surrounding mobs, the group would be on the third boss.

Rushing forward, I tossed some heals but they were totally unnecessary, which brings us to another problem where healers are no longer wanted/needed but I digress.

Instead of healing I spent the entire dungeon running after the group, trying to get a hit on the bosses before they died. One of the fellows, possibly the tank, commented halfway that we were so far from the boss we didn't even get loot. Because mister selfish rushpants kept going on rapids, leaving the trash behind to hinder the rest of the group, and just mowing down the bosses.

It was a lame run. It was not fun for the rusher, it was no fun for the ones running behind. If you're so uber OP you can wipe the dungeon solo in 5 minutes, why use the finder? Solo it, get it done your way, get all the loot you want, and don't be a ***. I don't get it. I really don't.

Don't be that guy. It's the first step towards making ESO's community better as a whole.

Why you and tank can’t swim together with those fast dps and get all rewards for free? rapids are casted on group btw..
Also what’s the problem to equip rapid maneurs too?
Yes that guy who left mobs behind is bad, but it’s current reality, you either adapt to it, or suffer.
I’m leveling up tank now (32 lvl now) when i got in group with cp810, i try to keep up with them and usually can even taunt boss a little

Asardes · October 2018

You need at least one more person to finish Blackheart because at some point during the fight the boss will turn one to skeleton and he can't heal or do much damage. That's probably why the people queued for it. However skipping the trash does actually pose some problems since the dungeon has several doors and having aggro on you may prevent you from going trough. That's why I actually clear a dungeon completely since it doesn't take much longer; trash has very low HP and dies in 3-4 ticks of ground placed AoEs.