Is there anyone on this forum who can defend Earthgore in PvP?

itscompton · October 2018

Exodium wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It has a very long cooldown for the individual wearing it. What you are really complaining about is zergs using it over and over.

No no did you read my post? The amount of people in zergs who equip esrthgore is a problem, yes, but the set itself is inherently broken because it procs without the player even having to react to burst as long as a heal over time is on (which is always the case considering the same people who use earthgore are usually the ones who spam rapid regen and healing springs)..

Also, as I said before the individual wearing it doesn't have to care about the cooldown because if you can intelligently rotate the proc with potions and defensive ultimates, you can effectively be immune to any burst.

Meh, for solo play I'll take Pirate Skeli any day over EG. It has much better uptime and scales better to protect against multiple attackers.

Stebarnz · October 2018

Its just another ZOS crutch for people who aren't very good at this game and do not intend or do not have the ability to get better.
But a player who isn't very good wants to do content easy so they equip crutch sets, unfortunately we have people in this game who are good but feel the need to use these crutch sets just to be trolls and take advantage of ZOS's weakness.

kargen27 · October 2018

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Okay, there are a lot of things in this thread that need to be addressed.

First: Someone said it's stupid because it can proc anywhere and can't be controlled, so any idiot can use it.
>Cool, and you're almost right. It CAN be controlled by a non-potato healer though. If you see someone with low health, you can launch a mend wounds at them, or place a springs under their feet and know that they are going to get that Earthgore, unless it procs on you yourself due to a passive heal.

Second: Someone said it's OP because it heals for 30,000 over 6 seconds.
> Cool, and you're right, in PvE. In PvP however, due to Battle Spirit, it heals for half, which is 15,000 over 6 seconds. Then factor in Major defile since everyone and their grandmother is running that on a gear set, on a glyph, as a poison, or as one of their abilities, there is another 30% off of that, which brings it down to about 11,500 over 6 seconds. Since monster sets can't crit, the range of healing will never go outside of the 11,500-15,000 mark for the heal. If I spec myself right, I can crit a BoL for more than that, as can any Templar non-potato healer.

Earthgore is nice, and it's a cool extra heal for those people who may need a quick little boost, but for the average group, it's just not that big of a deal. If you are fighting a group with all healers wearing Earthgore, you're fighting potatoes who do not know how to properly diversify their healer specs. If you can't kill potatoes, either l2p, or learn to count, because a lot of potatoes (ie. significantly more than you) is still going to squish you, no matter how awesome you are.

Third: Someone mentioned ball-zergs with a lot of Earthgore healers being a problem because the heal can hit so many people at once.
>This is true, but the problem there isn't the set. It's the fact that you're trying to fight a highly organized ball-zerg. They're annoying and we all hate them. They spec themselves out to be annoying. All they want to do is farm you and get AP from killing you while getting a troll-like "lul" out of it. If you are engaging them, you will be farmed, and that is no one's fault but your own for assuming you are supposed to be able to kill any and every player and group you meet. Walk away and find a new objective and quit being so stubborn. They can only kill you if you stay there and let them do it. If you move on, and other people do the same (barring the handful of dumbdumbs who refuse to learn), they will get bored and go away.

Fourth: Earthgore is used by both PvP and PvE players. Your whining about how OP you think it is may reverberate enough to get it nerfed AGAIN, and this will severely impact PvE. You may not care, but a lot of the community does, and you don't get to let your bad playing affect the whole community like that. The only concession I will make about this set is that it could technically be scaled back to only hit 6 people at a time, but that would mean ALL damage proc sets and AoEs would have to be dialed back again, because I'm not going to have my heals gimped if damage can still run wild. It's just weak to assume someone should have zero counters to their damage, just like it's weak for healers to whine about the defile debuffs that keep our healing realistically in check.

Fifth: STOP ASKING TO NERF EVERYTHING YOU DON'T LIKE. I'm personally sick to death of it. If someone comes up with a new way to thwart you, you don't whine, you change how you play until you find a way to overcome them. If you look at the best fighters in the game, that's all they do. They theory craft their builds constantly, and adjust every time they come up against something they can't kill. That is the penultimate difference between good and bad players- adaptability and creativity.

When it allows removal of usefull ultimates vs zergtrain lagbringers is NOT ok. I dont care about heal even if it was the double of it, removing a negate that wipes zerglings + heal them back up to max is NOT OK no matter how much you accept it or not.

Yes its a game that has cyrodiil for massive AvA fight when it cannot support it server aside, therefore the zergtrains induce so much lag making the game entirely unplayable for all the rest while they are safe in their zergs with their earthgores and their templars healing ultis.

Yeah nerf whining is the ESO way, but what you prefer never talk about it or ask an eathgore buff instead?

Time your negates better. EG has a 35 second cooldown, so if you haven't seen them go off for a bit, wait. Once they fire and have dissipated, THEN hit them with your Negate.

If lag is the issue (and I 100% agree with you that is absolutely is), then address that, not the zergs or how they kit themselves. You're trying to put a band-aid on a broken bone. You can take away EG, but the lag will still exist and the zergs will still be able to capitalize on it, and you will have accomplished nothing but getting rid of a decent set for healers.

Time my negate better? You are aware that zerglings carry up to 20 earthgores right?

How good timing you need for 20 earthgores?

My guess is any group running twenty of anything other than maybe Vykosa is going to cause problems for whoever they come across. I would much rather face twenty Earthgore than twenty Valkyn Skoria especially in an organized group.

What I got really tired of really quick was the time stop spamming. The good thing with that though is most people spamming it do not know how to follow up.

Zerg with 20 skoria?

Why you even talk about something you have 0 idea of? No organized zerglings run skoria, its probably the least efficient monster set to run. The most efficient is grothdarr since zerglings are 90% of times melee oriented group when they all charge together with several permafrosts+grothdars+destroult+whirlwinds.

When a monster set sucks up a negate and heal your group its op, now if you multiply that by 10+ sometimes 20 its not op anymore its broken to a whole new level .

Had zero to do with efficiency. It has everything to do with twenty of anything in one zerg being seen as anywhere near normal. If twenty people are all busy healing each other then maybe you live a bit longer than if those same twenty are chucking Blazing Spears your direction so flame meteors can rain down upon you. Maybe Valkyn Skoria isn't efficient but twenty of them will kill you. Which was kinda my point. If Earthgore was causing a big problem because one or two people in a group runs it then maybe look at it.

The post I responded to claimed organized groups with twenty players using Earthgore are running amok in cyrodiil wrecking the game. I pointed out any group running around utilizing twenty of one monster set is going to wreak havoc upon those that cross their path. That includes Valkyn Skoria because like it or not it would be tough surviving twenty fiery comets. Could some sets cause even more grief...probably so but point still stands. Twenty of almost anything is bad so calling for a nerf based on huge zergs running twenty Earthgore is silly at best.

If you think that skoria is efficient because 20 of them will kill you, Knight Slayer is way more efficient according to your logic because it takes only 7-8 of them to kill you with 1 heavy attack.. That is not a logic and its the most failed zerg apologizing comment to the lagbringers that roam around cyrodiil chasing randoms with 20 earthgores equipped while avoiding like the devil other zergs.

I never said it was efficient. You made that leap all on your own. I'm telling you a zerg running twenty of anything is going to cause problems and if that monster set does damage instead of healing it will lead to you dying quicker rather that later. Your argument simply doesn't make any sense because you are using as an example something that makes any set (even sets you feel are not efficient) a problem.

And no matter the sets involved when organized groups clash in battle the outcome usually comes down to movement and timing.

kargen27 · October 2018

Stebarnz wrote: »

Its just another ZOS crutch for people who aren't very good at this game and do not intend or do not have the ability to get better.
But a player who isn't very good wants to do content easy so they equip crutch sets, unfortunately we have people in this game who are good but feel the need to use these crutch sets just to be trolls and take advantage of ZOS's weakness.

Or it is a set players use to thwart players that just are not very good at killing their targets. Instead of getting better at killing they come and complain and ask for yet another nerf. Unfortunately we have people in this game that want to blame their lack of success on the game instead of their skills.

templesus · October 2018

Imo Earthgore should just be removed from the game. I can’t count the amount of times I’ll be Xing, drop ult on someone, and they get saved by earthgore from someone wearing it on the other side of the rock.

And before someone tries to hit me with “PvE exists” I have completed VMoL HM, VHoF HM, VAS +2, and VCR(haven’t done the HMs yet) so I am well versed when it comes to PvE. Content was completed without it before, and tbh it’s so broken that even tanks wear it. I remember a distinct run I had where both healers died on second shield phase of vMoL first boss(second phase not first), and the tanks vigors and earthgore kept all the DPS alive while we burned him. That isn’t balanced. That’s broken.

ChefZero · October 2018

Bloodspawn is superior.

Bosov · October 2018

TequilaFire wrote: »

Another 1vX player complaining the game isn't designed for him.
These guys should list their builds so we can all see what OP sets that they are wearing as well.

The game doesnt have to be designed for 1vx and is already against the solo player. Dynamic ult helped a solo player for example but that has been gone a long long time.

When you try to do a 1vx you are already at a disadvantage because 2 people can do twice the amount of damage 1 person can do. With 3 people you can potentially do 3 times the amount. If there is a healer in the "X group" you can focus on damage instead of healing yourself while the 1 has to do damage and healing by himself.

The "X" already has the advantage... so why is zos helping them by adding sets like earthgore? They shouldnt need a even bigger advantage.

With Earthgore (usually used by templars/healers too) the X in the "1vx" had numbersadvantage, a healer, higher damage because dps doesnt need to heal AND a way to negate the burst of the solo player just by wearing a 2 piece monster set.

So there is a huge difference between designing the game around 1vx or trying to make 1vx so difficult that it is hardly possible if the X group has certain things (earthgore being of those things which make 1vx a lot harder)

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · October 2018

@Exodium yes I totally feel you especially since im a stamblade 24/7 its really frustrating to see people getting perma 2nd chances with no viable punishment for their mistakes...still I nail them down in the end cuz even luck runs out and at some point hey...I still have major defile >:3 so I just need to time it right when their hard CD are in CD and rip...even so that's a fight that takes 2-5 minutes and its time I usually have to run cuz help comes and in BGs there is no way I can actually do that solo or fast enough

yes I know earthgore is good in pve as well im even considering getting it for my healer but in pvp is just overpowered...and yes I had the awesome experience to meet this group in bg with 4 earthgores...damn I just stopped trying.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · October 2018

@Sylosi well it used to be...then one tamriel came and hit as hard as that spike memento we just got :V

yurimodin · October 2018

just stack moar sloads newb

DeadlyRecluse · October 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

ow, the original problem with pre-nerf Earthgore was that it negated all need for organization beyond "Alright, we have 16 people in raid, so 10 of us will equip Earthgore." When that happened, the level of skill needed to defeat that group got to the point that the only possible counter was another organized raid, and it was a battle of the Earthgore cooldowns. Boring! After the nerf, that sort of Earthgore stacking went away...until now, right after its available in the Golden. I'm sure it'll die down after a while.

This is pretty much it, imo. Prenerf, 1-2 earthgore procs gobbled up most class ults (most notably negates) and could outheal (or provide a margin of error that allowed the healers to do their work) in such a way that it completely shut down coordinated ult drops (which have pretty much always been the make-or-break moment in group vs group fights.

Stacked earthgores still have that effect when an outnumbered group tries to ult drop a larger group--this is probably most notable when 6 stambois drop dawnbreakers just to have 3-4 earthgores save everyone--but a single earthgore is pretty easy to burst through.

It's funny seeing stacked Bogdan's becoming more popular--they should be more efficient overall, but they aren't as obvious as earthgore when it saves players.

p00tx · October 2018

Bosov wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Another 1vX player complaining the game isn't designed for him.
These guys should list their builds so we can all see what OP sets that they are wearing as well.

The game doesnt have to be designed for 1vx and is already against the solo player. Dynamic ult helped a solo player for example but that has been gone a long long time.

When you try to do a 1vx you are already at a disadvantage because 2 people can do twice the amount of damage 1 person can do. With 3 people you can potentially do 3 times the amount. If there is a healer in the "X group" you can focus on damage instead of healing yourself while the 1 has to do damage and healing by himself.

The "X" already has the advantage... so why is zos helping them by adding sets like earthgore? They shouldnt need a even bigger advantage.

With Earthgore (usually used by templars/healers too) the X in the "1vx" had numbersadvantage, a healer, higher damage because dps doesnt need to heal AND a way to negate the burst of the solo player just by wearing a 2 piece monster set.

So there is a huge difference between designing the game around 1vx or trying to make 1vx so difficult that it is hardly possible if the X group has certain things (earthgore being of those things which make 1vx a lot harder)

Because we have absolutely no desire to Xv your 1...at all...ever. This is not fun for anyone under any circumstances. What kind of player gets off on jumping on one player with uneven odds? There is no pride in beating someone with those odds. The problem is the try-hards who insist on jumping us and pulling us into a fight, then complain because they misjudged us and we pack them up. Cool story bro, stop picking fights when you're outnumbered. Leave us to go find fights that match our numbers, which is what we've actually kitted ourselves out for. You and your "uber-build" don't interest us even a little bit. I'm logged on to have a good time with friends, not to measure e-peen lengths with some random human on the internet.

**Note: This is the hypothetical "you", aimed at those I constantly run up against in Cyrodil and the elitists that are showing up in this thread, not you personally.

EmEm_Oh · October 2018

Exodium wrote: »

I can genuinely find no reason to defend this set. It is arguably right now the most overpowered defensive set (let alone monster set) in the game and it only requires 2 slots.

- It gives a 15-20k burst heal that requires nothing but going under 50% health. This is a PROC set that requires zero player input or ability to react as long as a heal over time (like ritual) is up

- The heal is an AOE so it is essentially a resto ult on demand that undoes your burst to other players if a player with earthgore happens to be near them

- Ok I get it there's a 30 second cooldown - but what about when a player rotates between repentenace/resto ult, tri pots, and other sources of healing. Just when you've finally generated your ultimate again to burst people down, the earthgore is ready to proc again. In fact, the earthgore timer is basically the same as the timer it takes to build an ultimate again.

There is no reason this set should be the way it is in its current state. Sets like this just disguise people's mistakes and what's the point in trying to exploit a players errors when a set like this spoon-feeds them back to full health.

I speak mostly from a small-scale/solo perspective, but honestly I've even seen coordinated groups of 15 vs other groups of 15 and have no one die because of the amount of earthgores proccing. The the direction of the game which is epitomised by sets like earthgore has caused so many good PvPers to leave ESO in droves because of how beginner-friendly this game is becoming with broken sets/abilities that have no counterplay or they offer too much protection to the user. This particularly hurts solo and small-group players the most.

So anyways, someone try to defend this set in its current form in PvP and justify its ability to heal the way it does. I would love to hear it.

I don't think you understand cooldowns. It's 30secs. In PvP, that's like sitting around for days.

If the set is being offered by ZOS, there is no defense, nor should there be by anyone wearing it. If your opponent uses it...then use it yourself if you think the current fight/campaign is disadvantaged.

Or just do what I do and target them with your group that knows what they're doing. Which brings me to my observation. We have a lot of inexperienced PvPers who apparently don't know what PvP is. It is NOT about balance. Never should be. That's for PvE Land. If you see something working against your faction in PvP that is wiping your group, maybe re-think your group's efficiency, healers, and start asking the tough questions like if they're any good, instead of blaming the equipment for being OP.

No such thing as OP, either. I've been fighting in Cyro for about 3 years now. I've never complained. Never will. Why? Because it doesn't make sense to me. I just run with groups that know what they're doing. And if I'm solo, I know what to avoid most of the time. Yeah, I die a lot. So what. That's PvP. But I also score a lot of kills. That's also PvP.

My advice, you're running with the wrong groups. I was recently in some fights yesterday night and a few of my opponents had EG. So what. Didn't even phase me. I positioned myself and took them out, and I didn't die. But I took out their EG user and our group managed to reclaim the keep.

Same thing with a healer. You going to say healing is now OP? If you have a good healer on the other faction, you target them. Period. Common sense. You don't just come here and complain about them. You focus them and your group should as well as the #1 person in a fight, and your opponent's group should fall. If not? Well, then they are probably better than you. That's life. Regroup and discover another strategy.

Apologies ahead of time if I seem too harsh and critical, but I do get frustrated with commentaries about any kind of "OP" equipment or skill.

Cronopoly · October 2018

Didn't we have this exact conversation regarding Malubeth ??? So instead of learning from that single person Monster Helm Rebellion, and NERF to common sense...
ZOS says "Hey let's do the exact same thing...but make it a ground AOE, Red Rain, they won't notice it's Malubeth reborn...besides many idiots will jump out of it.

"

My PVP Magden's EG's typically save Light and Medium armor toons. It definitely should not be in the game as is. As well as some of the Stam HA "Combination builds" which sacrifice nothing to cut a swath of death on the battle field, nigh unkillable.

I jest about the "Idiot" remark. That was me until I got the set lol. I saw RED RAIN covering my screen,

Me saying, "Escape you fool", my Sorc tries to rolldodge...no stam left...walks snared out of EG and dies...or cannot move and lives...Whoaa i'm alive...YES!!!......"Sreeeeee" /triple snipe....Dead.

JimmyJuJu · October 2018

Cronopoly wrote: »

Didn't we have this exact conversation regarding Malubeth ??? So instead of learning from that single person Monster Helm Rebellion, and NERF to common sense...
ZOS says "Hey let's do the exact same thing...but make it a ground AOE, Red Rain, they won't notice it's Malubeth reborn...besides many idiots will jump out of it. "

My PVP Magden's EG's typically save Light and Medium armor toons. It definitely should not be in the game as is. As well as some of the Stam HA "Combination builds" which sacrifice nothing to cut a swath of death on the battle field, nigh unkillable.

I jest about the "Idiot" remark. That was me until I got the set lol. I saw RED RAIN covering my screen, Me saying, "Escape you fool", my Sorc tries to rolldodge...no stam left...walks snared out of EG and dies...or cannot move and lives...Whoaa i'm alive...YES!!!......"Sreeeeee" /triple snipe....Dead.

Lol, that red rain. Everyone has run away from it at some point. The animation decision is puzzling, for sure. And the 3-snipe, post-EG death. Yep, been there. Usually there is a poison injection in there somewhere, too.

Threads like this are akin to the driver on the road who feels - truly feels - the road is for their own personal use and everyone else is trespassing and obstructing them. You just let them have their rant and go on about their business.

p00tx · October 2018

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

Didn't we have this exact conversation regarding Malubeth ??? So instead of learning from that single person Monster Helm Rebellion, and NERF to common sense...
ZOS says "Hey let's do the exact same thing...but make it a ground AOE, Red Rain, they won't notice it's Malubeth reborn...besides many idiots will jump out of it. "

My PVP Magden's EG's typically save Light and Medium armor toons. It definitely should not be in the game as is. As well as some of the Stam HA "Combination builds" which sacrifice nothing to cut a swath of death on the battle field, nigh unkillable.

I jest about the "Idiot" remark. That was me until I got the set lol. I saw RED RAIN covering my screen, Me saying, "Escape you fool", my Sorc tries to rolldodge...no stam left...walks snared out of EG and dies...or cannot move and lives...Whoaa i'm alive...YES!!!......"Sreeeeee" /triple snipe....Dead.

Lol, that red rain. Everyone has run away from it at some point. The animation decision is puzzling, for sure. And the 3-snipe, post-EG death. Yep, been there. Usually there is a poison injection in there somewhere, too.

Threads like this are akin to the driver on the road who feels - truly feels - the road is for their own personal use and everyone else is trespassing and obstructing them. You just let them have their rant and go on about their business.

Dude, I routinely roll-dodge out of my OWN red rain. It's just instinctual and I can't seem to stop myself. In all fairness, Zos left this one out of the "let's give you a ground indicator to show whether this is a good or bad AoE", along with Time Stops and Negates, so I just avoid ALL of them, whether they're ours or not and whether or not they can do damage to me. I take no chances.

JimmyJuJu · October 2018

p00tx wrote: »

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

Didn't we have this exact conversation regarding Malubeth ??? So instead of learning from that single person Monster Helm Rebellion, and NERF to common sense...
ZOS says "Hey let's do the exact same thing...but make it a ground AOE, Red Rain, they won't notice it's Malubeth reborn...besides many idiots will jump out of it. "

My PVP Magden's EG's typically save Light and Medium armor toons. It definitely should not be in the game as is. As well as some of the Stam HA "Combination builds" which sacrifice nothing to cut a swath of death on the battle field, nigh unkillable.

I jest about the "Idiot" remark. That was me until I got the set lol. I saw RED RAIN covering my screen, Me saying, "Escape you fool", my Sorc tries to rolldodge...no stam left...walks snared out of EG and dies...or cannot move and lives...Whoaa i'm alive...YES!!!......"Sreeeeee" /triple snipe....Dead.

Lol, that red rain. Everyone has run away from it at some point. The animation decision is puzzling, for sure. And the 3-snipe, post-EG death. Yep, been there. Usually there is a poison injection in there somewhere, too.

Threads like this are akin to the driver on the road who feels - truly feels - the road is for their own personal use and everyone else is trespassing and obstructing them. You just let them have their rant and go on about their business.

Dude, I routinely roll-dodge out of my OWN red rain. It's just instinctual and I can't seem to stop myself. In all fairness, Zos left this one out of the "let's give you a ground indicator to show whether this is a good or bad AoE", along with Time Stops and Negates, so I just avoid ALL of them, whether they're ours or not and whether or not they can do damage to me. I take no chances.

Haha, yeah. I run a vamplar healer so I don't enough stam to roll out. I usually either run around in a circle waiting for the death recap or hit mist form in a feeble attempt to run away from my own heals.

I iz reel gud at pee-vee-pee.

templesus · October 2018

Let me put this in perspective for those of you that run around in 24 mans...say you’re sieging a keep, and all of a sudden 72 cp 160s come out and start attacking you, you start to coordinate your ults only to realize you’re outnumbered 3-1 but you should be good right? They are low cp and are not anywhere near as experienced or good at the game as you right? So you drop ults only for multiple earthgore to proc on the people you’re bursting with all your ults. Then, because you can’t kill anyone due to the numerous earthgore procs when you all used your ults, you all then proceed to die to the sheer amount of numbers.

Does that sound balanced to you? That is what we 1vXers have to go through. 3 players of inferior skill level able to kill us because of broken things like earthgore in the game.

Also, on the PvE note, nightflame outperforms earthgore in EVERY scenario bar HM vAS, so it is asinine to complain about it being lost there.

GimpyPorcupine · October 2018

I can understand why some people, especially the skilled 1vXers, have a problem with Earthgore. But it may be, and this is just my analysis, due to perspective and focus. They're concentrating on the battles and not the war. Cyrodiil is an Alliance War, and wars, like it or not, are won by generals, not line soldiers. (And before you bash me, I certainly don't consider myself a general.)

To be clear, I have mad respect for those 1vXers and gankers that wreck me when I get caught alone, or with a small group that's foolish enough to get sucked into their trap. I totally understand the allure of that style of play, and I can see how they would get frustrated when I or my group, who are less competent at dueling than they, get saved by an Earthgore proc.

But here's the thing: I'm not in Cyrodiil to win battles, I'm there to attempt to win the war. So while fighting other players is fun, it's not why I'm there. I go into Cyrodiil to capture or defend objectives in order to increase my Alliance's score. That Earthgore proc that saves me and my group from getting wrecked by you is furthering my objective. You can call it cheese, you can call me a zergling, you can accuse me of playing PvDoor, I really don't care. I'm in Cyrodiil to play the game I want to play, which is a strategy game of capturing and controlling objectives on a map, not a game of skill at dueling.

VaranisArano · October 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Exodium wrote: »

Your argument doesn't work because starcraft has a tiered system similar to other games that aren't mmorpg based.

My argument works fine, that something like Cyrodil lacks the infrastructure to place similarly skilled players against each other is a big reason why as a skilled PvP game ESO is a joke.

Exodium wrote: »

The game actually has a really good foundation to have a high skill ceiling due to things like weaving and animation cancelling which actually adds depth to one's game play. I mean sure ESO doesn't look like it'll ever be an e-sport but doesn't mean their aren't top players who have mastered their craft and who have a right to therefore question why ZoS keeps trying to disguise the skill gap with sets that are clearly there to carry casual players.

No it doesn't, the game mode is low skilled (Cyrodil), the ani cancelling is low skilled (hint:cancelling in this game requires minimal timing, plus you can cancel so early there can be no meaningful animation), the "aiming" is barely aiming it is more can you hit a barn door, you don't even start on a level playing field (gear, CP, etc), the "competitive" playerbase is tiny which is a big problem because that is what drives up the skill cap in games and so on.

Now sure there are players better than others, but that doesn't make for a skilled PvP game, no one other than a few MMORPG bads think player A who has played the game for years facerolling their keyboard against player B who first set foot in Cyrodil that day think that is skilled PvP.

As for ZoS they have it right, you are playing a themepark MMORPG where just like pretty much every other themepark MMORPG what little "competitive" playerbase there was mostly left the game long ago (you know when you had things like DK 1vX with bats was so "skilled"), so they would be idiots to cater to a minority of their playerbase over the majority.

The people who have got it wrong are those who claim they want skilled PvP yet are still playing ESO, newsflash you are playing the wrong game and the wrong genre if you genuinely want skilled PvP, but of course most of you don't, which is why you still playing this game.

There's a difference between

"I want ESO to be skilled PVP"
And
"I want skill to be rewarded in ESO's PVP"

In ESO, skill is rewarded.
Its just that in ESO's PVP, organization trumps skill.

ESO's PVP was designed for organized groups of 8 to 24 players fighting on the battlefields and keeps of Cyrodiil, and boy does it show even despite all the changes.

Skill is great.
Organization is better.

And thats the real problem all the "I'm so skilled!" players have with organized groups. In an organized group, the individual skill of players in a 1v1 doesnt matter as much as their ability to work as a team to execute group tactics effectively. Organization trumps skill.

Now, the original problem with pre-nerf Earthgore was that it negated all need for organization beyond "Alright, we have 16 people in raid, so 10 of us will equip Earthgore." When that happened, the level of skill needed to defeat that group got to the point that the only possible counter was another organized raid, and it was a battle of the Earthgore cooldowns. Boring! After the nerf, that sort of Earthgore stacking went away...until now, right after its available in the Golden. I'm sure it'll die down after a while.

Problem is organisation is part of a skill and more people You have less organization you need. 5-10 ppl will have to think about organizing their fight 30+ ppl not that much. ESO is not rewarding organization it encourages people to not be organised because they can still be effective with brainless button mashing if they'll run in high numbers.

Skilled players have no issue with dying to organised groups problem is that small scalers can't do much about unorganised groups which are majority of PvP these days.

Who cares what was the original problem with Earthgore and how it worked. Concers in this thread are about it's current state not the state from over half year ago so explaining how it worked in the past have zero feedback.

I mostly play large scale PVP in an organized raid. From my perspective, Earthgore was fine since the nerf. Its only back in large numbers now because of the Golden. A further nerf is only needed if people continue to use it in large numbers that its problematic.

Of course its fine for you if you play in a large raid. The set benefits you so much more than it would solo/ small scalers. I'm sure its saved you group multiple times.

Do consider that as an organized raid we also fight the organized raids that stack Earthgore. So Ive fought the groups who stacked 10 Earthgore in 16 members groups. We didn't. That meta, in my experience, died off after the nerf.

p00tx · October 2018

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

I can understand why some people, especially the skilled 1vXers, have a problem with Earthgore. But it may be, and this is just my analysis, due to perspective and focus. They're concentrating on the battles and not the war. Cyrodiil is an Alliance War, and wars, like it or not, are won by generals, not line soldiers. (And before you bash me, I certainly don't consider myself a general.)

To be clear, I have mad respect for those 1vXers and gankers that wreck me when I get caught alone, or with a small group that's foolish enough to get sucked into their trap. I totally understand the allure of that style of play, and I can see how they would get frustrated when I or my group, who are less competent at dueling than they, get saved by an Earthgore proc.

But here's the thing: I'm not in Cyrodiil to win battles, I'm there to attempt to win the war. So while fighting other players is fun, it's not why I'm there. I go into Cyrodiil to capture or defend objectives in order to increase my Alliance's score. That Earthgore proc that saves me and my group from getting wrecked by you is furthering my objective. You can call it cheese, you can call me a zergling, you can accuse me of playing PvDoor, I really don't care. I'm in Cyrodiil to play the game I want to play, which is a strategy game of capturing and controlling objectives on a map, not a game of skill at dueling.

^^This, all day every day. I could not have said it better.

Everyone wants something different out of Cyrodil, and I'm frankly kinda tired of hearing "If you don't play exactly the way I expect you to play (ie. my way), then you're weaker/less skilled/stupid/potato/zergling. Now stand still and strip your gear off so I can kill all of you by myself. If you fight back with anything other than your bare hands, you're cheesing and I will look down on you. I hate you and you suck. Ps. this is being filmed and I will probably talk about how terribad you are on my video. You may also get derisive whispers from me. I hate you".

If my group of 3-4 gets killed by one person, that sucks because we just got packed up by one dude. I'll be impressed that they could do it, but it still isn't going to be anything to brag about for us. If we pack them up, then so what? We just packed up one dude. Still nothing to brag about. These 1vXers are trying to force the rest of us to change the whole game to play their way, which means we either can no longer play with our friends, or if we choose to play in groups, we're sucked into scenarios that we gain absolutely nothing from. Less than nothing actually, unless there are groups that are super into dog-piling one dude. More power to them I guess. That is not the Cyrodil I want to play in.

If the 1vX crowd wants to talk about the efficacy of EG in BGs, we can absolutely do that, because BGs were created for them and I don't think there should be so many crutches in that type of environment. It's supposed to be highly skilled, small group play, rather than Procsville. In Cyrodil though? No, you go your way and I'll go mine, and I will continue using the tools at my disposal to play the way I want to play, no matter how rude, dismissive, derisive, and derogatory the discussion becomes.

Abysswarrior45 · October 2018

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

I can understand why some people, especially the skilled 1vXers, have a problem with Earthgore. But it may be, and this is just my analysis, due to perspective and focus. They're concentrating on the battles and not the war. Cyrodiil is an Alliance War, and wars, like it or not, are won by generals, not line soldiers. (And before you bash me, I certainly don't consider myself a general.)

To be clear, I have mad respect for those 1vXers and gankers that wreck me when I get caught alone, or with a small group that's foolish enough to get sucked into their trap. I totally understand the allure of that style of play, and I can see how they would get frustrated when I or my group, who are less competent at dueling than they, get saved by an Earthgore proc.

But here's the thing: I'm not in Cyrodiil to win battles, I'm there to attempt to win the war. So while fighting other players is fun, it's not why I'm there. I go into Cyrodiil to capture or defend objectives in order to increase my Alliance's score. That Earthgore proc that saves me and my group from getting wrecked by you is furthering my objective. You can call it cheese, you can call me a zergling, you can accuse me of playing PvDoor, I really don't care. I'm in Cyrodiil to play the game I want to play, which is a strategy game of capturing and controlling objectives on a map, not a game of skill at dueling.

Nice speech, but the point of this thread is not whether or not you can use Earthgore, it's whether or not it should exist in this first place. Sets should not be able to carry anyone.

GimpyPorcupine · October 2018

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Nice speech, but the point of this thread is not whether or not you can use Earthgore, it's whether or not it should exist in this first place. Sets should not be able to carry anyone.

It's certainly not the only proc set out there. It's not even the only healing proc. Plenty of people have argued that none should exist. Well, they do, so instead of whinging about it on the forums, I assume that someone I encounter is going to be using it and figure out how to deal with it.

As someone else pointed out, stacked Nightflame are harder to deal with than stacked Earthgore, but their visuals don't attract as much notice.

There are plenty of damage proc sets that would be OP if stacked. Sheer Venom and Sload's come to mind. The only difference is that getting a group together that's all wearing them requires coordination, whereas right now, since EG head pieces were sold recently by the Golden, a ton of people are wearing it, so you see it stacked.

ZOS_Mika · October 2018

We have removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. Please keep in mind that, while it is fine to disagree, baiting and bashing are not constructive. Let's keep the discussion civil. Thank you for your understanding.

Exodium · October 2018

ZOS_MikaS wrote: »

We have removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. Please keep in mind that, while it is fine to disagree, baiting and bashing are not constructive. Let's keep the discussion civil. Thank you for your understanding.

Thanks for not closing this thread entirely. This is for the most part a civil discussion where people are introducing relevant points related to the balance of the set in its current state.