Is there anyone on this forum who can defend Earthgore in PvP?

ParaNostram

Honestly I think troll king is better

Hurtfan

Everyone is using Earthgore in PvP, therefore, everyone is on even ground.

TheGreatBlackBear

All this outcry is going to accomplish (if anything) is a nerf to Earthgore, which is going to hurt PVE the most. Don't sit there and play dumb with comments like "oh it's only from a PVP perspective" you know very well that it's nerfs across the board with these devs.

JimmyJuJu

ParaNostram wrote: »

Honestly I think troll king is better

Overall, yes. Because you can apply it to multiple players and it stays with them (i.e. it's mobile). While the EG heals are strong, it's this effect that makes it so damn good:

"...you conjure a pool of quenching blood underneath them, which soaks up <all> enemy placed effects instantly"

Oh yeah, that's good stuff.

Thogard

Rakkhat told me that earthgore is stupidly OP in PvE. He told me that EG carries bad PvE players and gives them unearned no-death runs. He told me that it isn’t fair that while he’s getting zerged down by 12 people that he has to essentially kill each of them twice because of earthgore.

“I’m not sure about PvP, but please nerf earthgore for PvE purposes since it carries bad players through no-death runs. “ - Z’maja

p00tx

Cronopoly wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Time your negates better.

Which DK, Templar, NB, or Warden is going to be using Negate in Nerfmire for PVP?

DK= Talons for the group CC
Templar= Solar Prison for the CC and Maim
NB= Veil of Blades for the dmg/snare/Major Protection for your group, and the group heal
Warden= Permafrost for the dmg/snare/eventual stun/Major Protection for your team

Every class has a group utility ulti that can be used. You just have to think in terms of overall group utility, rather than just amping up your own dmg potential. To take down a team, you need a team, and that means all players work to keep the team going, not just the healers.

Sarousse wrote: »

As a small squad group leader (5 to 8 players), Earthgore abuse is the main reason why we can't burst down good ballgroups.

Even if synchronizing multi dawnbreakers with 6k+ melee power, with silence and time stop, you just can't do anything against multi earthgore procs.

This monster set should have never existed. Never. But we have some serious geniuses at Zenimax PvP headquarters.

The same ones that nerf mobility while letting Rapid Manoeuver spammable, allowing ballgroups to stay at the top.

Nope, the reason you can't take them down is because you are all playing individually in a group, rather than playing as a group, for the group. 6 Dawnbreakers? Are you all the same exact race/class? Use your individual abilities and learn to synergize them so that you help the group. The reason these ball groups are so good (and also obnoxious) is that they worked together to come up with builds that benefit everyone, not just the individual. They work together, move together, and communicate carefully.

You want to take them down? Diversify your builds. I run groups that are about the same size as yours, and we talk before we even go out on the field to determine who is wearing what, then adjust to make sure we're all bringing something uniquely beneficial to the group, so we're not just another meta blob.


This isn't an Earthgore issue, and it's not even a L2P issue, since I assume you already know how to do that. It's fully a L2P-together issue.

Synapsis123

You can try to get the earthgore set nerfed, but everytime we are 50% of the way to a nerf it just heals itself to full.

Royaji

Synapsis123 wrote: »

You can try to get the earthgore set nerfed, but everytime we are 50% of the way to a nerf it just heals itself to full.

Sounds like a l2forumPvP issue. They just need to setup their nerf posts burst faster!

Synapsis123

Royaji wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

You can try to get the earthgore set nerfed, but everytime we are 50% of the way to a nerf it just heals itself to full.

Sounds like a l2forumPvP issue. They just need to setup their nerf posts burst faster!

It all honesty the set is overpowered when zergs stack it in pvp. It either shouldn't be able to heal the same player within 15 seconds or the ground effect removal shouldn't exist. Zergs that should die keep getting saved by an aoe cheat death with a 35 second cooldown.

In addition you don't even need to use any heals because it procs off the CP passive that heals you when you are crit. I've tried to kill people on horses and they've lived and rode off because of earthgore.

TLDR: Overpowered when stacked in zergs and there are ways to balance it without nerfing it for pvers.

zaria

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It has a very long cooldown for the individual wearing it. What you are really complaining about is zergs using it over and over.

Would it not trigger on all at once if many in raid group wear it?

Yes it would work well as an anti ganker set but then you can not use an offensive one.

zyk

Elder Carries Online has many enthusiastic fans.

NyassaV

I love the concept of the set but the heal is way to powerful and bursty so its really just another carry set.

GimpyPorcupine

...chuckles and keeps wearing Nightflame...

Donny_Vito

It's all these spin-to-win players and snipe exploiters that are crying because a monster set can outperform their single button smashing abilities. I love your tears.

p00tx

NyassaV wrote: »

I love the concept of the set but the heal is way to powerful and bursty so its really just another carry set.

Bursty???

After factoring in Battle Spirit, and not even considering rampant defile debuffs, it hits for a MAX of 2500 per second for 6 seconds. If the player is defiled, it's 1916.6/second over 6 seconds. Vigor hits almost as hard as that and no one is freaking out over that ability, even though most stam groups liberally use it on their stam players.

I think the problem is you have this massive visual, so you zero in on that and think "Ah-hah! That's the problem! That's the biggest reason we can't kill these guys! I can see it, so it must be what I'm upset about!", while the stuff that does that same thing without even having to wait 35 seconds for a cooldown (which begins after the last tick of healing ends) gets ignored.

GimpyPorcupine

Seriously, why do people think that a zerg should be beaten by anything other than siege? A cursory look at military history prior to modern warfare should inform you otherwise.

I blame Hollywood (okay, I blame them for everything) for having every fight scene between armies immediately turn into some sort of grand melee, which is not how any but the most disorganized armies fought.

Greek Phalanx, later improved by the Romans. Heck, close-order formations were used as late as the 20th Century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_square

Want to defeat zergs? Hit them with artillery. That's how close-order infantry formations have always been broken up throughout history, and that's how to do it in PVP.

edited for typos

Thogard

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Seriously, why do people think that a zerg should be beaten by anything other than siege? A cursory look at military history prior to modern warfare should inform you otherwise.

I blame Hollywood (okay, I blame them for everything) for having every fight scene between armies immediately turn into some sort of grand melee, which is not how any but the most disorganized armies fought.

Greek Phalanx, later improved by the Romans. Heck, close-order formations were used as late as the 20th Century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_square

Want to defeat zergs? Hit them with artillery. That's how close-order infantry formations have always been broken up throughout history, and that's how to do it in PVP.

edited for typos

This is absurd. I’m driving right now and can’t point out how absurd it is but I think you should do more research on small scale tactics before jumping to conclusions

Juhasow

p00tx wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

I love the concept of the set but the heal is way to powerful and bursty so its really just another carry set.

Bursty???

After factoring in Battle Spirit, and not even considering rampant defile debuffs, it hits for a MAX of 2500 per second for 6 seconds. If the player is defiled, it's 1916.6/second over 6 seconds. Vigor hits almost as hard as that and no one is freaking out over that ability, even though most stam groups liberally use it on their stam players.

I think the problem is you have this massive visual, so you zero in on that and think "Ah-hah! That's the problem! That's the biggest reason we can't kill these guys! I can see it, so it must be what I'm upset about!", while the stuff that does that same thing without even having to wait 35 seconds for a cooldown (which begins after the last tick of healing ends) gets ignored.

You do realize that healing done/taken buffs also works on that set ? Also You do realize it's easier to empower that heal for whole groupmof people that will be affected then apply defile on all people in that group ? If it's used by argonian magplar it's already 13% more healing done and then You can add healing recived of people that are getting healed. 2,5k heal per second most of the time is 10% hp every second applies pasively so with regular active heals added on top of that it's basicly sometimes coming back from the grave. Basicly by Your standards if there would be proc set that when You deal dmg to someone under 50% health applies AoE 2,5k oblivion dmg per second and removes 1 buff/heal from enemy it would be also ok because hey it have 35 seconds cooldown so You'll potentially destroy everyone but just once every 35 seconds...

zyk

p00tx wrote: »

After factoring in Battle Spirit, and not even considering rampant defile debuffs, it hits for a MAX of 2500 per second for 6 seconds. If the player is defiled, it's 1916.6/second over 6 seconds. Vigor hits almost as hard as that and no one is freaking out over that ability, even though most stam groups liberally use it on their stam players.

That's brilliant. Compare a defiled Earthgore heal to another that's not. /facepalm

It's an automatic heal that's more than twice as strong as Vigor in most cases.

GimpyPorcupine

Thogard wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Seriously, why do people think that a zerg should be beaten by anything other than siege? A cursory look at military history prior to modern warfare should inform you otherwise.

I blame Hollywood (okay, I blame them for everything) for having every fight scene between armies immediately turn into some sort of grand melee, which is not how any but the most disorganized armies fought.

Greek Phalanx, later improved by the Romans. Heck, close-order formations were used as late as the 20th Century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_square

Want to defeat zergs? Hit them with artillery. That's how close-order infantry formations have always been broken up throughout history, and that's how to do it in PVP.

edited for typos

This is absurd. I’m driving right now and can’t point out how absurd it is but I think you should do more research on small scale tactics before jumping to conclusions

Hopefully you'll be done driving soon so you can explain why exactly it's absurd, or how you concluded that I don't know anything about small-scale tactics.

I think it's valid and helpful to look to real life examples of warfare to see what can be learned.

Donny_Vito

zyk wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

After factoring in Battle Spirit, and not even considering rampant defile debuffs, it hits for a MAX of 2500 per second for 6 seconds. If the player is defiled, it's 1916.6/second over 6 seconds. Vigor hits almost as hard as that and no one is freaking out over that ability, even though most stam groups liberally use it on their stam players.

That's brilliant. Compare a defiled Earthgore heal to another that's not. /facepalm

It's an automatic heal that's more than twice as strong as Vigor in most cases.

Why should Vigor be the base value that we calculate heals on?

And on another note (in my opinion) Earthgore should only be proc'd via a skill in the Restoration Skill line.

JimmyJuJu

zyk wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

After factoring in Battle Spirit, and not even considering rampant defile debuffs, it hits for a MAX of 2500 per second for 6 seconds. If the player is defiled, it's 1916.6/second over 6 seconds. Vigor hits almost as hard as that and no one is freaking out over that ability, even though most stam groups liberally use it on their stam players.

That's brilliant. Compare a defiled Earthgore heal to another that's not. /facepalm

It's an automatic heal that's more than twice as strong as Vigor in most cases.

Doesn't EG soak up defile? My understanding is that EG soaks up ALL negative effects. Which is mainly (IMO) why it's so good.

DeadlyRecluse

Donny_Vito wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

After factoring in Battle Spirit, and not even considering rampant defile debuffs, it hits for a MAX of 2500 per second for 6 seconds. If the player is defiled, it's 1916.6/second over 6 seconds. Vigor hits almost as hard as that and no one is freaking out over that ability, even though most stam groups liberally use it on their stam players.

That's brilliant. Compare a defiled Earthgore heal to another that's not. /facepalm

It's an automatic heal that's more than twice as strong as Vigor in most cases.

Why should Vigor be the base value that we calculate heals on?

And on another note (in my opinion) Earthgore should only be proc'd via a skill in the Restoration Skill line.

It would be interesting if it only procced off of direct heals, not HoTs, too. And make that one CP star that heals on a crit not trigger it..

That would require responsive casting to activate it, rather than it just going off more or less automatically.

Royaji

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

After factoring in Battle Spirit, and not even considering rampant defile debuffs, it hits for a MAX of 2500 per second for 6 seconds. If the player is defiled, it's 1916.6/second over 6 seconds. Vigor hits almost as hard as that and no one is freaking out over that ability, even though most stam groups liberally use it on their stam players.

That's brilliant. Compare a defiled Earthgore heal to another that's not. /facepalm

It's an automatic heal that's more than twice as strong as Vigor in most cases.

Doesn't EG soak up defile? My understanding is that EG soaks up ALL negative effects. Which is mainly (IMO) why it's so good.

It only soaks up ground based effects. Not debuffs applied to you.

p00tx

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

After factoring in Battle Spirit, and not even considering rampant defile debuffs, it hits for a MAX of 2500 per second for 6 seconds. If the player is defiled, it's 1916.6/second over 6 seconds. Vigor hits almost as hard as that and no one is freaking out over that ability, even though most stam groups liberally use it on their stam players.

That's brilliant. Compare a defiled Earthgore heal to another that's not. /facepalm

It's an automatic heal that's more than twice as strong as Vigor in most cases.

Doesn't EG soak up defile? My understanding is that EG soaks up ALL negative effects. Which is mainly (IMO) why it's so good.

EG soaks up one negative ground based effect now. They changed it because it was WAY overpowered (for PvP) when it was released and cleansed literally everything in its path on both players and the environment, all within 3 seconds. It was really nice using it back then, but even I can't defend the initial release tooltip.

VaranisArano

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Seriously, why do people think that a zerg should be beaten by anything other than siege? A cursory look at military history prior to modern warfare should inform you otherwise.

I blame Hollywood (okay, I blame them for everything) for having every fight scene between armies immediately turn into some sort of grand melee, which is not how any but the most disorganized armies fought.

Greek Phalanx, later improved by the Romans. Heck, close-order formations were used as late as the 20th Century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_square

Want to defeat zergs? Hit them with artillery. That's how close-order infantry formations have always been broken up throughout history, and that's how to do it in PVP.

edited for typos

Okay, I'm not gonna try to argue the real world tactics - I'm just going to explain how and why this does and doesnt work in Cyrodiil.

This works great when used by an organized group group against a disorganized group.

Why? Because the organized group can protect their siege and the people running the siege engines, and move to reacquire targets when needed. Also the disorganized group rarely has the healers to counter the incoming siege damage because a disorganized group is usually "every man for himself" when push comes to shove.

This doesnt work very well when used by a disorganized group against an organized group, unless overwhelming numbers are present or the organized group must fight in a confined space such as a keep wall breach.

Why not? An organized group has the healers to weather the siege damage and can effectively move out of the the siege damage. Unless they are at an objective or there are overwhelming numbers, no organized raid is going to sit in siege damage if they can avoid it. Furthermore, the disorganized group is almost always ineffective at protecting their siege engines and the people running them, even if that siege was holding the organized group at bay. I can not tell you how many times Ive been zerg-surfing, lay down siege to trap enemies in a choke point, only to have my fellow PUGs abandon the siegers and fall back the moment the enemy pushes, leaving us vulnerable.

So "Use Siege" is good advice for an organized group facing a disorganized foe, especially if the foe is a large amount of zerging players. Its bad advice for a disorganized group facing an organized foe, where mobility is the better option, unless the disorganized players have overwhelming numbers.

So yeah, "Use Siege" works under some circumstances, but its not a magic tactic to beating organized raids.

Or if I may boil this down even further:
TLDR: if you want to defeat organized groups, you gotta get organized yourselves.

exeeter702

The idea behind earthgores design is that in exchange for a long CD and (mostly) uncontrollable proc conditions, you gain a respectable aoe heal. One thing i often notice is that in scenarios where im using the set and am getting hard focused by 3+ people, i use ults, pots, or other abilites in unision with the EG proc that mostly go unnoticed ofc of which the salty whispers come in, bitching about how EG single handedly saved me.

Honestly idk... but as long as equally *** offensive options via gear are in the game, i will make full use of a *** defensive option. That isnt an excuse for balance, but that isnt my job as a player, you can leave your elite skill moral ethics at the door, i will ALWAYS use the best tools for the job (which EG isnt always fyi) as a healer as long as the neckbeard try hard mongloids are doing the same.

Rex-Umbra

Use Earthgore as it fits the theme of my nb healer. One thing against it is it can proc on allies who just walk out of it. If they nerf this set they better nerf zaan same time.

Exodium

Donny_Vito wrote: »

It's all these spin-to-win players and snipe exploiters that are crying because a monster set can outperform their single button smashing abilities. I love your tears.

Why are you comparing a players rotation using actual skills to a monster set that self-procs...?

And the same players that keep falling into the dawnbreaker spin2win traps are the same players relying on Earthgore to carry them out of being bursted.

I don't think I've ever fallen into a spin2win trap because I'm not dumb enough to be immobile in battle or leave my HoTs down. And don't forget how obviously telegraphed stam wardens spin2win is when they do their subterranean assault animation - it basically means be mobile or you'll get hit hard.

And if you die to that, the way the game SHOULD work is you should reflect on why you *** up and maybe learn that in future you need reposition yourself better, keep heals up or try and telegraph the burst. Unlike your vision of the game which is having a 25k Earthgore set soak up all his damage, and all your mistakes.
.

JimmyJuJu

p00tx wrote: »

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

After factoring in Battle Spirit, and not even considering rampant defile debuffs, it hits for a MAX of 2500 per second for 6 seconds. If the player is defiled, it's 1916.6/second over 6 seconds. Vigor hits almost as hard as that and no one is freaking out over that ability, even though most stam groups liberally use it on their stam players.

That's brilliant. Compare a defiled Earthgore heal to another that's not. /facepalm

It's an automatic heal that's more than twice as strong as Vigor in most cases.

Doesn't EG soak up defile? My understanding is that EG soaks up ALL negative effects. Which is mainly (IMO) why it's so good.

ED soaks up one negative ground based effect now. They changed it because it was WAY overpowered (for PvP) when it was released and cleansed literally everything in its path on both players and the environment, all within 3 seconds. It was really nice using it back then, but even I can't defend the initial release tooltip.

Hmm, interesting and good to know, thanks. I guess I pay most attention to it during keep offense when oils are raining down and I don't have to spam purge. "Efficient" purge indeed.