max_only wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Are there no other ultimates in the game for a dps Warden?

I didn't say that.

I said the Bear has ridiculously good damage for it's ultimate cost, making it the most attractive option for PvE Wardens.

Your counterexample is an underpowered or overpriced ultimate that just isn't worth slotting outside of some very specific circumstances.

As I say, I play Tank. Educate me because I honestly don’t know. I’m not being facetious right now.

The bear has constant damage, and (on live) has an executing burst hit that should cost somewhere around 125-150 ultimate. But, it only costs 75, making it one of the cheapest ultimates in the game, along stuff like incap (which also got a nerf recently.) Additionally, the bear has a self-triggering burst hit that also hits like a more expensive ultimate. You can't control that, but it's also free damage while the bear is up.

If you're running something like Master Architect or War Machine, the Bear gets ludicrously good for group content.

Finally, because of how PvE aggro management works, the bear will usually avoid taking damage in group content, and only really suffers in content where pets are a liability, like Halls of Fabrication, or Aetherian Archive.

I also wasn't exaggerating, by the way. The Bear will hit harder, with additional execute damage on low health enemies, than Ice Comet, which costs 200 ult. Meteor, mostly has value in PvP, where burst damage is king, and the long range hit is more likely to get you value. Also, because players can, and will, kill your bear.

As much as it hurts, pre-nerf, the bear is probably the best damage per point spent ultimate in the game. (Not counting werewolf, which has a theoretically unlimited damage potential, on a long enough time scale, if you can manage the transform.) Though this is somewhat distorted, because the bear can do relatively consistent damage for free, in addition to the ultimate effect.

But, yeah, the bear is very good.

jcm2606 wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

I've really had to think too hard about a response but here we go...

I get what the op is saying, bear nerf may be over the top but we're not to the end of the pts cycle yet and if it comes out as an overall DPS nerf (which it seems to be) the devs may reconsider or tweak it before live release.

That said, there are already too many class ults or morphs that go unused, which overall makes classes more homegenized which most people do not want. Just look to the shield changes and yes, they affect all mag classes but they hit sorcs right in their class identity.

The ults I see used most often are either guild (db, meteor), weapon (destro ult, s2w) or soul assault (not as much anymore). If anything we need to revert SOME of the bear nerf, if it is a net dps loss, and push for POSITIVE changes to other class ults to regain class identity.

Just saying, spin2win isn't an ultimate.

You are correct sir! My brain was focused elsweyr.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

I've really had to think too hard about a response but here we go...

I get what the op is saying, bear nerf may be over the top but we're not to the end of the pts cycle yet and if it comes out as an overall DPS nerf (which it seems to be) the devs may reconsider or tweak it before live release.

That said, there are already too many class ults or morphs that go unused, which overall makes classes more homegenized which most people do not want. Just look to the shield changes and yes, they affect all mag classes but they hit sorcs right in their class identity.

The ults I see used most often are either guild (db, meteor), weapon (destro ult, rend) or soul assault (not as much anymore). If anything we need to revert SOME of the bear nerf, if it is a net dps loss, and push for POSITIVE changes to other class ults to regain class identity.

Edit: for wrong ult name

Thank you for approaching this seriously.

The bear nerf is over the top from my initial perspective.

However if I try to see it from Zos’ perspective then I have to accept that a 30% damage reduction is necessary *for some reason*.

Then if i try to justify it, it must be because there are so many elite players on the forum complaining that 1-the game is too easy; 2- it’s better to burn down fights than do mechanics; 3 fights are too short; 4 support classes aren’t needed. These are the reasons I can think of for why they would want to decrease damage of an ultimate. (Of the worst performing class in dps)

There may be too many ultimates that go unused. That’s definitely a possibility. Before this patch I would have suggested buffing those rarely used ultimates. Now I see that there is only one turn the devs will take, which is down the path of decreasing damage.

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Are there no other ultimates in the game for a dps Warden?

I didn't say that.

I said the Bear has ridiculously good damage for it's ultimate cost, making it the most attractive option for PvE Wardens.

Your counterexample is an underpowered or overpriced ultimate that just isn't worth slotting outside of some very specific circumstances.

As I say, I play Tank. Educate me because I honestly don’t know. I’m not being facetious right now.

The bear has constant damage, and (on live) has an executing burst hit that should cost somewhere around 125-150 ultimate. But, it only costs 75, making it one of the cheapest ultimates in the game, along stuff like incap (which also got a nerf recently.) Additionally, the bear has a self-triggering burst hit that also hits like a more expensive ultimate. You can't control that, but it's also free damage while the bear is up.

If you're running something like Master Architect or War Machine, the Bear gets ludicrously good for group content.

Finally, because of how PvE aggro management works, the bear will usually avoid taking damage in group content, and only really suffers in content where pets are a liability, like Halls of Fabrication, or Aetherian Archive.

I also wasn't exaggerating, by the way. The Bear will hit harder, with additional execute damage on low health enemies, than Ice Comet, which costs 200 ult. Meteor, mostly has value in PvP, where burst damage is king, and the long range hit is more likely to get you value. Also, because players can, and will, kill your bear.

As much as it hurts, pre-nerf, the bear is probably the best damage per point spent ultimate in the game. (Not counting werewolf, which has a theoretically unlimited damage potential, on a long enough time scale, if you can manage the transform.) Though this is somewhat distorted, because the bear can do relatively consistent damage for free, in addition to the ultimate effect.

But, yeah, the bear is very good.

On fights where the target stands still.

I haven’t heard from many people who claim that the combat pets in this game are accurate and always on target. I’ve heard the opposite. If combat pets never missed then yes they would be powerful. As it is, they miss a good chunk of the time.

Maybe the ultimate is cheap because it has a chance to be wasted when the bear misses. Increasing the ultimate cost on the bear would be a reasonable change. I wouldn’t be here if that was the conclusion that they came to. “Oh the ultimate is too cheap, we should increase it so it’s in line with other class ultimates.”

The damage per ultimate point is zero when it misses. This is why all other ultimates should miss as well. At least that player will have two choices.

Also the damage the bear does is not free. There is a major downside to using the bear: both ultimate slots are occupied.

jcm2606 wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Don’t be resistant to change. You might not even use the ultimates that will be affected.

For example my Templar uses Meteor and Lights Champion (resto staff ultimate). If they made a 30% decrease to Templar ultimates I wouldn’t care because I don’t use them. People who do use them will need to adapt but that’s no skin off my back.

So this basically boils down to "this doesn't affect me, so I don't care if it affects you", in which case...

/thread

Well when I asked for support that was the attitude I received. It’s even here in this thread. Caring about skills that other people use is not popular with this community. So yeah, my quote up there about me not caring about Templar nerfs was facetious, I was trying to turn the tables on the people who come to all the Warden threads and say “My warden never used the bear so I don’t care and in fact I encourage the nerf”. Just take a look in this thread and the ones I linked.

Spoiler, here are a few.

idk wrote: »

OP starts off attempting to justify their opinion saying fights are over in a blink of an eye, yet offers no perspective on what comment.

In the end that comment seems rather empty since they try to claim their changes would only change total dps 1-2% It seems more like smoke and mirrors to justify a personal opinion based on nothing.

As for fast fights. I can only assume OP runs with top groups making such comments that boss fights are over in a blink of an eye. After all, Zos has set the bar for fast clears of the most recent trial at 15 minutes for the speed run yet only the most experience groups will optimize how they approach the fight well enough to get such an achievement.

So I would suggest we do not optimize the game because the top 1% clears fights so well. I do not see it as good for the game.

I am a casual according to this community. I’ve only done MoL on normal once just to see it. I very rarely do vet dlc dungeons with pugs (edit I do them with a guild). My favorite activity in this game is reading the quests and doing World Boss trains with my guild. I’m nowhere near the top 1% in any part of this game. My ideas come from the perspective of someone who has come to a place of acceptance with Zos’ logic. If this is the best solution for the problem (whatever it was) then we can apply it to other parts of the game.

When I playing tank 70% of random dds can't deal a huge damage to skip some mechanics, each boss takes 3-5 minutes if it is not difficult. I don't know where you found a lot of such people, they are rarely in random queue. Also all (or most) of this dds were in trials where amount of damage is one of the most necessary things for success.

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Are there no other ultimates in the game for a dps Warden?

I didn't say that.

I said the Bear has ridiculously good damage for it's ultimate cost, making it the most attractive option for PvE Wardens.

Your counterexample is an underpowered or overpriced ultimate that just isn't worth slotting outside of some very specific circumstances.

As I say, I play Tank. Educate me because I honestly don’t know. I’m not being facetious right now.

The bear has constant damage, and (on live) has an executing burst hit that should cost somewhere around 125-150 ultimate. But, it only costs 75, making it one of the cheapest ultimates in the game, along stuff like incap (which also got a nerf recently.) Additionally, the bear has a self-triggering burst hit that also hits like a more expensive ultimate. You can't control that, but it's also free damage while the bear is up.

If you're running something like Master Architect or War Machine, the Bear gets ludicrously good for group content.

Finally, because of how PvE aggro management works, the bear will usually avoid taking damage in group content, and only really suffers in content where pets are a liability, like Halls of Fabrication, or Aetherian Archive.

I also wasn't exaggerating, by the way. The Bear will hit harder, with additional execute damage on low health enemies, than Ice Comet, which costs 200 ult. Meteor, mostly has value in PvP, where burst damage is king, and the long range hit is more likely to get you value. Also, because players can, and will, kill your bear.

As much as it hurts, pre-nerf, the bear is probably the best damage per point spent ultimate in the game. (Not counting werewolf, which has a theoretically unlimited damage potential, on a long enough time scale, if you can manage the transform.) Though this is somewhat distorted, because the bear can do relatively consistent damage for free, in addition to the ultimate effect.

But, yeah, the bear is very good.

On fights where the target stands still.

So, only vet trials, and some dungeon bosses, with a focus on some of the nastier DLC dungeon end bosses...

You know, the times when having the most efficient ult is important.

Like most ults, using it on trash mobs is kinda a waste... except of course, the bear will do some damage to trash mobs anyway, because it's there anyway.

max_only wrote: »

I haven’t heard from many people who claim that the combat pets in this game are accurate and always on target.

1You must have some peculiar conversations, if you expected this to come up as a topic.

max_only wrote: »

I’ve heard the opposite.

I once had someone, in a dungeon, arguing that Champion Points "turned off" when you weren't in Dungeons or Trials.

max_only wrote: »

If combat pets never missed then yes they would be powerful. As it is, they miss a good chunk of the time.

2...And you base this on your extensive experience with... not using them. Right.

If they were truly useless as you say, they would not find a home on so many, competent, builds. Which, of course, they do, frequently.

max_only wrote: »

Maybe the ultimate is cheap because it has a chance to be wasted when the bear misses. Increasing the ultimate cost on the bear would be a reasonable change.

One of these two statements are unreasonable. Either the pet misses enough to justify the cost, or the pet's ultimate cost should be increased.

Except, of course it doesn't, and it shouldn't. But you've already explained why, you just didn't understand it because you don't DPS.

Now, I'll grant you, there may be a way to derp up the timing on the bear so you waste the ultimate. But, as it stands, because of how pet mechanics work in group content, this isn't a serious consideration.

max_only wrote: »

I wouldn’t be here if that was the conclusion that they came to. “Oh the ultimate is too cheap, we should increase it so it’s in line with other class ultimates.”

Given the nature of the original post... no, if they'd decided to increase the cost of the ultimate, 3 you'd be saying, "all DPS ultimates should have their ult costs increased because the bosses die too fast."

The problems with that idea are even more impressive, but you didn't say that, because we still live in a world that is, at least, somewhat rational.

max_only wrote: »

The damage per ultimate point is zero when it misses. This is why all other ultimates should miss as well. At least that player will have two choices.

Also the damage the bear does is not free.

The damage the bear does on its own, when you're already committing to it is without additional cost. It's "free damage." Griping that said free damage is sometimes interrupted on some encounters is nitpicking.

max_only wrote: »

There is a major downside to using the bear: both ultimate slots are occupied.

So, here's something 4 you might not understand about DPS; we don't often use our backbar ultimate all that much.

Sure, some specs will have alternating ultimates, but that's more of a novelty. Sometimes we'll stick something conditional back there for a specific part of a specific encounter, or because we want a passive bonus if confers. But, if we're rotating with an ult, it'll be that ult 99% of the time.

So, that double bar thing is something DPS like to complain about, but it's not nearly as big a deal as you might think. Again, if it wasn't worth slotting, even after getting a 30% damage nerf, people wouldn't slot it.

You said you didn't know what you're talking about, and I explained it. Instead of accepting the word of someone who actually plays the class, 5 you proceeded to enter into a, "but you don't understand my genius."

Here's the problem:

max_only wrote: »

I’ve only done MoL on normal once just to see it. I very rarely do vet dlc dungeons with pugs.

The game should not be balanced around your experiences. By your own admission you do not run content where this stuff is relevant. You do not know what you're talking about. You do not understand how DPS works, how it's played, or what it needs.

You are, apparently, literally complaining about players being too powerful for overland content.

Beyond that you have the utterly bizarre idea that the ultimates are to blame for that. No, if someone is waxing the enemy you're approaching with two or three hits, chances are, they're not even using their ultimates. They're just using basic abilities... you know, the ones you suggested buffing.

You are literally asking for a game where players like me can kill the quest mobs you want to look at faster, while simultaneously trying to make life harder for tanks and healers who run endgame content. Because you're also asking for the effectiveness of things like trees or barrier to be reduced as well.

I also suspect that's part of why you think Ice Comet is still a viable choice. Because if you're just nuking a delve boss or a Dolmen, you're 100% correct. You don't get locked into the bear if you have a theme. However, if you're trying to maximize performance, then the Bear becomes an extremely attractive option.

Thank you for explaining it calmly.

Let me respond to the bolder sections.
1) this is in reference to threads on the forum complaining about pathing issues for combat pets. Not conversations I’ve had. No one I know irl plays this game.

2) I use the bear when I’m solo and so I have seen it miss. I haven’t played my Sorc in a long while so I rely on anecdotes from others when I say that they don’t make it to the fight.

3) well I can’t speculate on possible pasts. I used to be a Nightblade tank for a long while. When they suggest increasing ultimate costs I don’t get upset. Big showy moves are special to me, and it actually took some time to realize that I didn’t have to save my ults, that I should use them as a regular thing when they are ready. Moving ultimate costs up and down seems to me like a good volume dial to tweak balance.

4) thank you for explaining this

5) honestly this idea and it’s rationale did not originate with me.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.

You ever hear a rationale so counterintuitive that you start to question your own critical thinking skills? Lol how to explain... This “reason” was so egregious that I had to stop using my critical thinking skills and just accept it wholesale and begin again from there.

So it’s not that I think I’m a genius. I hope, with our exchange, that it shows I can acknowledge when I’m wrong and try to view a topic differently. Well that’s what happened when I saw this Zos reply.

My initial reaction was similar to this:

After sitting with it for a while I came around to Zos’ way of thinking (even if at first I thought it was backasward) and proposed this thread.

The rest, well I’ve only been playing for 2.5 years. I never claimed to be an expert. I’m good at what I do because I take my time to learn. I know I’m a good tank and that satisfies me. That’s my area of interest and it doesn’t bother me that other people are more “elite” or “better”. I’m not asking for the game to revolve around me. I’m looking at the trend of forum posts that are about the game being too easy, about the mechanics are better burned through than healed through, etc. and extrapolating from that. I admit using the forum for the current flavor of the game is flawed. It just seems like that is what the devs are responding to.

Thanks!
@starkerealm I don’t think you were caustic or harsh.

starkerealm wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I am no knocking you as everyone has their own interest in the game.

Yeah, agreed. I know I can be a bit harsh... okay, I can be downright caustic at times, but, I'm not trying to come down on you, @max_only.

max_only wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Are there no other ultimates in the game for a dps Warden?

I didn't say that.

I said the Bear has ridiculously good damage for it's ultimate cost, making it the most attractive option for PvE Wardens.

Your counterexample is an underpowered or overpriced ultimate that just isn't worth slotting outside of some very specific circumstances.

As I say, I play Tank. Educate me because I honestly don’t know. I’m not being facetious right now.

The bear has constant damage, and (on live) has an executing burst hit that should cost somewhere around 125-150 ultimate. But, it only costs 75, making it one of the cheapest ultimates in the game, along stuff like incap (which also got a nerf recently.) Additionally, the bear has a self-triggering burst hit that also hits like a more expensive ultimate. You can't control that, but it's also free damage while the bear is up.

If you're running something like Master Architect or War Machine, the Bear gets ludicrously good for group content.

Finally, because of how PvE aggro management works, the bear will usually avoid taking damage in group content, and only really suffers in content where pets are a liability, like Halls of Fabrication, or Aetherian Archive.

I also wasn't exaggerating, by the way. The Bear will hit harder, with additional execute damage on low health enemies, than Ice Comet, which costs 200 ult. Meteor, mostly has value in PvP, where burst damage is king, and the long range hit is more likely to get you value. Also, because players can, and will, kill your bear.

As much as it hurts, pre-nerf, the bear is probably the best damage per point spent ultimate in the game. (Not counting werewolf, which has a theoretically unlimited damage potential, on a long enough time scale, if you can manage the transform.) Though this is somewhat distorted, because the bear can do relatively consistent damage for free, in addition to the ultimate effect.

But, yeah, the bear is very good.

On fights where the target stands still.

So, only vet trials, and some dungeon bosses, with a focus on some of the nastier DLC dungeon end bosses...

You know, the times when having the most efficient ult is important.

Like most ults, using it on trash mobs is kinda a waste... except of course, the bear will do some damage to trash mobs anyway, because it's there anyway.

max_only wrote: »

I haven’t heard from many people who claim that the combat pets in this game are accurate and always on target.

1You must have some peculiar conversations, if you expected this to come up as a topic.

max_only wrote: »

I’ve heard the opposite.

I once had someone, in a dungeon, arguing that Champion Points "turned off" when you weren't in Dungeons or Trials.

max_only wrote: »

If combat pets never missed then yes they would be powerful. As it is, they miss a good chunk of the time.

2...And you base this on your extensive experience with... not using them. Right.

If they were truly useless as you say, they would not find a home on so many, competent, builds. Which, of course, they do, frequently.

max_only wrote: »

Maybe the ultimate is cheap because it has a chance to be wasted when the bear misses. Increasing the ultimate cost on the bear would be a reasonable change.

One of these two statements are unreasonable. Either the pet misses enough to justify the cost, or the pet's ultimate cost should be increased.

Except, of course it doesn't, and it shouldn't. But you've already explained why, you just didn't understand it because you don't DPS.

Now, I'll grant you, there may be a way to derp up the timing on the bear so you waste the ultimate. But, as it stands, because of how pet mechanics work in group content, this isn't a serious consideration.

max_only wrote: »

I wouldn’t be here if that was the conclusion that they came to. “Oh the ultimate is too cheap, we should increase it so it’s in line with other class ultimates.”

Given the nature of the original post... no, if they'd decided to increase the cost of the ultimate, 3 you'd be saying, "all DPS ultimates should have their ult costs increased because the bosses die too fast."

The problems with that idea are even more impressive, but you didn't say that, because we still live in a world that is, at least, somewhat rational.

max_only wrote: »

The damage per ultimate point is zero when it misses. This is why all other ultimates should miss as well. At least that player will have two choices.

Also the damage the bear does is not free.

The damage the bear does on its own, when you're already committing to it is without additional cost. It's "free damage." Griping that said free damage is sometimes interrupted on some encounters is nitpicking.

max_only wrote: »

There is a major downside to using the bear: both ultimate slots are occupied.

So, here's something 4 you might not understand about DPS; we don't often use our backbar ultimate all that much.

Sure, some specs will have alternating ultimates, but that's more of a novelty. Sometimes we'll stick something conditional back there for a specific part of a specific encounter, or because we want a passive bonus if confers. But, if we're rotating with an ult, it'll be that ult 99% of the time.

So, that double bar thing is something DPS like to complain about, but it's not nearly as big a deal as you might think. Again, if it wasn't worth slotting, even after getting a 30% damage nerf, people wouldn't slot it.

You said you didn't know what you're talking about, and I explained it. Instead of accepting the word of someone who actually plays the class, 5 you proceeded to enter into a, "but you don't understand my genius."

Here's the problem:

max_only wrote: »

I’ve only done MoL on normal once just to see it. I very rarely do vet dlc dungeons with pugs.

The game should not be balanced around your experiences. By your own admission you do not run content where this stuff is relevant. You do not know what you're talking about. You do not understand how DPS works, how it's played, or what it needs.

You are, apparently, literally complaining about players being too powerful for overland content.

Beyond that you have the utterly bizarre idea that the ultimates are to blame for that. No, if someone is waxing the enemy you're approaching with two or three hits, chances are, they're not even using their ultimates. They're just using basic abilities... you know, the ones you suggested buffing.

You are literally asking for a game where players like me can kill the quest mobs you want to look at faster, while simultaneously trying to make life harder for tanks and healers who run endgame content. Because you're also asking for the effectiveness of things like trees or barrier to be reduced as well.

I also suspect that's part of why you think Ice Comet is still a viable choice. Because if you're just nuking a delve boss or a Dolmen, you're 100% correct. You don't get locked into the bear if you have a theme. However, if you're trying to maximize performance, then the Bear becomes an extremely attractive option.

Thank you for explaining it calmly.

Let me respond to the bolder sections.
1) this is in reference to threads on the forum complaining about pathing issues for combat pets. Not conversations I’ve had. No one I know irl plays this game.

Pathing is less of an issue for pets than you may realize. Depending on circumstances, they're entirely happy to teleport short distances if they really can't find their way via the walkmesh. That said, there's usually a slight lag between when a pet realizes, "nope, can't get there," and when it actually ports over. Also in some situations, particularly enemies that are greater than a set distance from the player, they won't go. They'll just throw up their paws and find something else to gnaw on.

Worth knowing that you can direct your pets to a specific target by heavy attacking it. This can also create issues if you're heavy attacking adds while also trying to manage the boss, as your bear (or scamp/clanfear) will have a complete nervous breakdown running between targets. If it's the clanfear, chances are you don't care, but with the scamp and bear it's an issue.

I'd also strongly suggest making friends in game. (If you haven't.) Running dungeons by yourself is miserable, and having more eyes on the game and it's community can help you get better as a player.

max_only wrote: »

2) I use the bear when I’m solo and so I have seen it miss. I haven’t played my Sorc in a long while so I rely on anecdotes from others when I say that they don’t make it to the fight.

I suspect, without checking, this has to do with what you're using the bear on. Which boils down to a kind of, "L2P" dismissal. But, I'm guessing what you're seeing is you'll activate the ultimate on a target while they're moving, and the bear won't connect. Which, yeah, this is more common when you have a boss that isn't being tanked effectively, or you're trying to use it to mop up adds.

In retrospect, not seeing this may simply come down to the targets I use it against.

So, I don't want to leave it with, "l2p," but I am pretty sure this is a user issue. Try to make sure your bear is engaged with the target you're going to use the ult on, and then use the ult to surge burst it as frequently as possible. In fights where you're swapping between the boss and multiple adds, this adds another thing to keep track of. (Though, for obvious reasons, if you're tanking, you do not want the bear slotted.)

max_only wrote: »

3) well I can’t speculate on possible pasts. I used to be a Nightblade tank for a long while. When they suggest increasing ultimate costs I don’t get upset. Big showy moves are special to me, and it actually took some time to realize that I didn’t have to save my ults, that I should use them as a regular thing when they are ready. Moving ultimate costs up and down seems to me like a good volume dial to tweak balance.

It's not because of two classes. The DK and the Sorc. Sorcs can adjust their ultimate costs down, meaning any increase to ultimate costs affects them less. The DKs are a different animal entirely, as their Battle Roar gives them resources and health back when they trigger an ultimate, based on the cost of that ultimate. So increasing the cost would significantly increase the efficacy of Battle Roar. Combine this with the part where it's possible to generate far more ultimate than you need (I've got a sorc that can generate somewhere north of 500 ult per minute), and yeah, it would not be a good idea to tune that up.

Like I said, it's not the argument you were wanting to make, but it's also a bad idea for reasons that are not entirely obvious.

max_only wrote: »

4) thank you for explaining this

5) honestly this idea and it’s rationale did not originate with me.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.

You ever hear a rationale so counterintuitive that you start to question your own critical thinking skills? Lol how to explain... This “reason” was so egregious that I had to stop using my critical thinking skills and just accept it wholesale and begin again from there.

So it’s not that I think I’m a genius. I hope, with our exchange, that it shows I can acknowledge when I’m wrong and try to view a topic differently. Well that’s what happened when I saw this Zos reply.

My initial reaction was similar to this:

Feric51 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We reduced the damage of bear so we could buff the base damage of Wardens; the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species. This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss.

I'm confused. That whole sentence reads like a non sequitur. Let's look at each phrase....

• We reduced the damage of [the] bear so we could buff the base damage of wardens - So, sounds like the changes they made to wardens in general should be a boost to all DPS skills that are not the bear.
  
• the overall DPS should be within 1-2% of what it was before due to the buff of Advanced Species - Advanced Species buff was an additional 1% damage (3% instead of 2%) per animal ability slotted, so by slotting the bear you gain an additional 3% damage over a non-bear user to compensate for the 30% damage reduction of the bear. However, if you didn't previously use the bear and had several other Animal Companion abilities slotted, it sounds like a net DPS gain. Cool.
  
• This means anyone who doesn't use the bear will see less of a DPS loss. - Huh? You just said the changes to Warden were a buff to everything but the bear, yet the final statement says non-bear users will see "less of a loss"? So that means all wardens are expected to see a net DPS loss, those who use the bear will just be hit harder?

Even after explaining it to myself, I'm still confused....

After sitting with it for a while I came around to Zos’ way of thinking (even if at first I thought it was backasward) and proposed this thread.

The rest, well I’ve only been playing for 2.5 years. I never claimed to be an expert. I’m good at what I do because I take my time to learn. I know I’m a good tank and that satisfies me. That’s my area of interest and it doesn’t bother me that other people are more “elite” or “better”. I’m not asking for the game to revolve around me. I’m looking at the trend of forum posts that are about the game being too easy, about the mechanics are better burned through than healed through, etc. and extrapolating from that. I admit using the forum for the current flavor of the game is flawed. It just seems like that is what the devs are responding to.

No, the changes to Warden make perfect sense. The bear nerf stings a bit, but it's a specific warden problem. It's also problem you're not going to see at your level of engagement with the game (no offense intended.)

As a class, Wardens cap with lower DPS than other classes. Especially mag wardens. They can't really keep up with the other four classes in pure DPS. Stam Wardens are better off than mag, but they have the same problem.

This is something where, if you're pushing less than 35-40k DPS, you're not really going to see it. The class ceiling is lower.

So, the class's base abilities need to hit harder. Or, at least, that's the theory. But, this is in response to a warden issue, not a general game balance problem.

For example, Nightblades already hit very hard with their non-ults. Sorcs hit extremely hard with their non-ults. Tempalrs hit extremely hard with their non-ults, even if every Templar I meet seems to whiff JesusBeam, I'm assured that there really are Templar DPS out there. And of course, DKs vomit on everything, and watch it melt.

Wardens, it, "okay-ish" with their non-ults. Not spectacular.

Also, like I said, the bear does overperform. It's a thing that, you're right, you do need to know how to use it properly. (Which, I've apparently forgotten.) Same reason that Nightblades manage to get away with an absurdly high DPS ceiling: Grim Focus takes a lot of skill? Maybe just "practice," to use effectively. Also, for reference, Grim Focus is not an ult, it's already extremely powerful. Buffing if further would be kinda bonkers.

Wardens lose out. Again, it's something you won't see until you're pushing towards the class's skill ceiling. As a tank, it's not something you'll see at all. I mean, yeah, my warden tank only pushes about 6-8k dps, in comparison to my sorc tank's 8-12k, but tank DPS is abysmal anyway.

See here’s the thing. Every time I try to explain this to people inside and outside the game I’m met with the same initial reaction. I can’t find anyone else who thinks that it makes sense.

No one else would stand for a damage decrease to their ultimate, especially if they were forced to use just the one ultimate on both bars. Wardens aren’t desirable already. They need to keep the bear damage the same until Warden usage goes up. And gimping Warhorn to force people to take a Warden on raids is just a terrible idea.

If they decrease ultimates across the board, I think we’d see more impassioned responses. As it is, I log on and I have to explain whole patch notes to guildies and when they ask why, the reasons don’t make any common sense. Just mathematically. No sense just from the get go.


Edit: something strange is happening with this thread. It claims it hasn’t been posted in since Oct 11, I don’t want a tin foil hat but it might be that it’s getting suppressed...