Equalising bad and good players.

usmguy1234 · October 2018

tunepunk wrote: »

Posted this in another thread, but creating a new thread about because it was a bit off topic...

This is just some ideas for how to close the gap between good and "bad" players.

The definition of a bad player seems to be:
Someone that only uses one bar, and like light attack and skills spamming play style, especially during boss fights.

Let's face it. Not everyone is comfortable with upkeep 2 bars worth of skills dots and buffs, while staying mobile and and staying out of stupid.

The most equalising skill in game so far is Werewolf Ultimate.
Just trying out Werewolf for the first time on one of my characters yesterday I was surprised how potent this is. I was doing 30k + dps on dummy just light attacking, with some decent gear, and could stay in wolf form for the duration of the fight. I was clearing a normal dungeon solo way faster and easier than I do with any of my other characters.

As a VERY casual player I have a really hard time pushing 30k dps on a dummy on any of my characters. I REALLY suck at weapon swapping, keeping up buffs, dots and weaving, so the werewolf form was like a perfect match for me. It fit my play style like a glove. I'm surprised I never tried it before.

The whole mechanic of werewolf is quite interesting. Clicking that ultimate you opt out of using backbar, and get significant boost to your single werewolf bar in while in werewolf form.

Even if I geared up to the best of my potential, I could probably never reach dps equal to some of the best end game builds as a werewolf, but if felt REALLY good to be able to get some decent numbers without worrying too much about upkeep, dots, and weapon swapping.

But the point is. Werewolf does not fit all, in terms of Looks, and skills, mechanic.

Possible solution equalizing "bad" and good players?
What ZOS can learn from that is to come up with something similar that has a functionality similar to werewolf. Opting out of a backbar for a significant boost to your single bar is a great concept for equalising the difference in player skill, just like how werewolf works.
They could even try to do it as a Potion to test it. Pop the potion pre boss fight. Locks your other bar, but gives you significant boost to your current bar. Pretty easy to balance as well. If max potential while using this potion was about 75-80% of what a good player utilising both bars would do, that would be a great start.

Or they could try it as a 5 set bonus. 5th set piece prevents your from switching to your secondary bar but, significantly buffs your main bar. Let's say it would give you something like 1000 weapon/spell damage, or something along those lines. Not having a second bar would be a huge downside for some, but a good plus for some that has a decent 1 bar build.

Just by testing werewolf for one day, I found that this skill is a very good option for closing the gap between good and bad players, when it comes to DPS potential.

You shouldn't homogenize game mechanics... what you should do is make the experience more rewarding for killing skilled players. Take for example: KD ratios have been around for a really long time in most fps and mmo style competitive games. Imagine if a player with a low KD killed a high KD player. As of now, you get a small amount of ap. Imagine if you got 5k ap? This would be an incentive for the less good player to get better. If multiple people killed the "good" player they would share the 5k ap. If the good player killed multiple people while being attacked, he would get 5k ap, etc. So, long story short, it's better to give people incentives to play the game at their best instead of dumbing down mechanics and fostering a lazy culture in the game.

Sanctum74 · October 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

tunepunk wrote: »

Posted this in another thread, but creating a new thread about because it was a bit off topic...

This is just some ideas for how to close the gap between good and "bad" players.

The definition of a bad player seems to be:
Someone that only uses one bar, and like light attack and skills spamming play style, especially during boss fights.

Let's face it. Not everyone is comfortable with upkeep 2 bars worth of skills dots and buffs, while staying mobile and and staying out of stupid.

The most equalising skill in game so far is Werewolf Ultimate.
Just trying out Werewolf for the first time on one of my characters yesterday I was surprised how potent this is. I was doing 30k + dps on dummy just light attacking, with some decent gear, and could stay in wolf form for the duration of the fight. I was clearing a normal dungeon solo way faster and easier than I do with any of my other characters.

As a VERY casual player I have a really hard time pushing 30k dps on a dummy on any of my characters. I REALLY suck at weapon swapping, keeping up buffs, dots and weaving, so the werewolf form was like a perfect match for me. It fit my play style like a glove. I'm surprised I never tried it before.

The whole mechanic of werewolf is quite interesting. Clicking that ultimate you opt out of using backbar, and get significant boost to your single werewolf bar in while in werewolf form.

Even if I geared up to the best of my potential, I could probably never reach dps equal to some of the best end game builds as a werewolf, but if felt REALLY good to be able to get some decent numbers without worrying too much about upkeep, dots, and weapon swapping.

But the point is. Werewolf does not fit all, in terms of Looks, and skills, mechanic.

Possible solution equalizing "bad" and good players?
What ZOS can learn from that is to come up with something similar that has a functionality similar to werewolf. Opting out of a backbar for a significant boost to your single bar is a great concept for equalising the difference in player skill, just like how werewolf works.
They could even try to do it as a Potion to test it. Pop the potion pre boss fight. Locks your other bar, but gives you significant boost to your current bar. Pretty easy to balance as well. If max potential while using this potion was about 75-80% of what a good player utilising both bars would do, that would be a great start.

Or they could try it as a 5 set bonus. 5th set piece prevents your from switching to your secondary bar but, significantly buffs your main bar. Let's say it would give you something like 1000 weapon/spell damage, or something along those lines. Not having a second bar would be a huge downside for some, but a good plus for some that has a decent 1 bar build.

Just by testing werewolf for one day, I found that this skill is a very good option for closing the gap between good and bad players, when it comes to DPS potential.

You shouldn't homogenize game mechanics... what you should do is make the experience more rewarding for killing skilled players. Take for example: KD ratios have been around for a really long time in most fps and mmo style competitive games. Imagine if a player with a low KD killed a high KD player. As of now, you get a small amount of ap. Imagine if you got 5k ap? This would be an incentive for the less good player to get better. If multiple people killed the "good" player they would share the 5k ap. If the good player killed multiple people while being attacked, he would get 5k ap, etc. So, long story short, it's better to give people incentives to play the game at their best instead of dumbing down mechanics and fostering a lazy culture in the game.

As it is groups chase down good solo players across the map, ult dump them, and then tbag like its a sense of accomplishment.

Increasing AP for killing good players would just end up chasing the good players out of cyrodiil who are already at a disadvantage since most of them are solo or in small groups.

I still stick to the belief that if you want to get better at anything in life you learn the basics and practice which is exactly what the good players had to do to become a good player.

ZeroXFF · October 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ultimately, there are three types of players in this game, but there is a bit of a spectrum between the last two. I will explain.

1. The first type of player is bad either by choice or due to not being able to press buttons satisfactorily. These are the ones you see bashing AC on the forums, spamming bow light attacks in the corner on a high elf, etc. They stink for one reason or another. Things like werewolf, Overload back in the day, etc, can be a reasonable band aid solution. I have no problem with them as long as they arent leading DPS races (which they arent currently).

2. The second type of player is one that has a reasonable understanding of the game, has researched or developed a competent build, and has practiced their rotation. These are the people clearing most if not all vet content, but they arent setting WR scores. They are often in BIS or close to BIS gear, and their ability to weave and AC is competent. They either do static rotations, or a somewhat simplified dynamic rotation. Type 2 is not as prevalent as type 1 overall, but type two makes up the bulk of the end game community.

3. Type three is the pure min.maxer that surrounds themselves with the same. They run meta gear, meta group comps, and use dynamic rotations. Their goal is to push score in whatever content they are doing. They are by far the smallest group, but they are often the most visible on youtube and the like. 2 and 3 can blend a bit depending on how competent a player is with a dynamic rotation as it is more of a sliding scale.

You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded. The gap between 2 and 3, however, has widened significantly in the past year or so. This is largely due to the emergence of dynamic rotations, as it is the highest skill barrier in the game.

If your goal is to close the gap between 1 and 3, you will be left with a pile of garbage that nobody wants to play. Bad players will always be bad. If your goal is to close the gap between 2 and 3, well that IMO is reasonable as long is your goal is to not completely eliminate it. Again, time, skill and effort should be rewarded.

As the biggest culprit between the two is the rise of the dynamic rotation, the obvious way to shrink the gap it to reduce the benefits of such a rotation. The most obvious way to do that is to homogenize skill duration among various types of skills. If all single target DOTS were 10 seconds, and all player buffs/debuffs were say 20 seconds, a purely dynamic rotation would not be as beneficial.

I am certainly not suggesting broad sweeping changes across the board, but it is something I think they should consider in future content updates when trying to control the gap, which is frankly getting a little out of control.

There is just one flaw with your statement, going from a static to a dynamic rotation is good design and rewards actual skill rather than good ping and the usage of macros. LA weaving on the other hand is bad design, because it is unintuitive and does reward good ping and basically screams "this is something that should be macroed". Intuitively people treat light attacks the way experienced players treat spammables, so this is exactly how the devs should treat them when they design game aspects like gear and other skills (after putting LA on the same GCD as skills, the way Overload works before Murkmire and Mend Wounds) if they want the game to be more accessible. Going from group 1 to 2 will still be quite a steep learning curve, but at least it will be a logical and obvious one.

And this is coming from someone on the higher end of group 2 with near perfect LA weaving who is doing around 40k dps with a static rotation on multiple characters.

albesca · October 2018

Berenhir wrote: »

Bind weapon swap to an accessible key like Q and don't use standard keybinds.

This can't be stressed enough: standard binding for weapon swapping is completely out of reach when playing with keyboard and mouse.
When I reached level 15 and opened weapon swapping I was puzzled as to how was I supposed to hit that key during combat.

RavenSworn · October 2018

Sarannah wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm actually glad I stumbled upon this thread, as a recently returned player. I have played many mmo's over my lifetime, some even as hardcore raider.

Since I returned to TESO there have been a few obstacles I ran into. Weapon swapping and using two skillbars has been one of them. Another is being unable to get headpieces from veteran content(and raidgear) as I do not want to do that content and be a burden to players in there. I feel I should learn, gear and understand the game better before going to that level of gameplay. Running normal dungeons seems to be great and easy now.

About ability bar swapping: At the moment I am already quite geared, and using 1 ability bar is going great. But when weapon swapping comes in, there is just too much to think about: Buffs, debuffs, DoT timers, ability cooldowns, cast times, monster/player movements, counter-skills, damage avoidance, did the swap work...while also keeping an eye on health, mana and stamina resources. It just becomes too much. Add in playing multiple characters all with different skillsets, and it becomes even more of a hassle. Not to mention, I've noticed that the players that do master weapon swapping on 1 character, often do not master it on multiple.
The solution I'd like to propose is to add an option to the game to show both ability bars and number the skills 1 to 0 for 10 total skills. And to let the character automatically swap weapons when you use a skill from the other ability bar, but every time you swap weapons there should be a small delay(even if it is the exact same weapon), to compensate not doing it manually(no delay when using skills from the same ability bar). This would make keeping an eye on all skills easier while making weapon swapping more accessible to everyone.

About veteran only headpiece drops: When looking up builds and gear sets for builds, I usually stumble upon this hurdle as these are for me unable to acquire. The last few community guides posted by ZOS also mainly include this type of gear. When trying to find out how to get this gear, I found these are only accessible through veteran dungeons. Which was a massive turn-off for me. I also read these drops used to be available with a ~20% chance from normal dungeon bosses. I do not know why this changed, but alas it did. (Yes, I know about the golden vendor... but waiting a year or more for something is just not realistic.) Right now this pushes low-geared and unexperienced players into veteran content before they are ready for it, exposing pro players to 'bad players' and exposing these unexperienced players to toxic comments from how some pro's react.
Now I can see two solutions to this issue: Make these headpieces drop from normal dungeon bosses with a % chance, and/or let these masks also drop from undaunted chests.

Making high level content more accessible while not pushing players into it before they are ready means shorter queue-times for everyone, less bad players in high content and probably even a healthier game population. Yes, the pro players will always be the pro players doing more damage. But a difference in dps from pro to casual, ranging from 10k-70k with the same gear should not be possible. The changes I propose here do not affect the pro players except for shorter queue-times, but it would lower the treshhold for new players, pro players with alternate characters and players that just cannot get a feel for weapon swapping. It would also show a player's willingness to farm their gear sets and learn their class(food/drink, poisons, potions, etc) before venturing into too high content. Only then can a player be called 'bad' if they do not work for it, not right now when the game pushes players into content they are not ready/geared for.

Remember, this is a game and not everyone wants to play it hardcore. Some play for this awfull thing called "fun".... like me

PS: When searching for builds, gear and solutions on these issues, these two obstacles seem to be the two most common ones amongst players who play(ed) TESO as non-pro's. Some even leaving as they cannot nail the weapon swapping thing. Or them just getting annoyed for getting kicked from veteran dungeons, which they only ran for the headpieces.

When you have problems with swapping your weapons, you don't need monster sets or go to veteran dungeons.

You can start light attacking with the left mouse button and occasionally use skills at the beginning and over time, all this will become fluid.

Set your UI to always show your ability bar, so you know on which bar you are right now.

Bind weapon swap to an accessible key like Q and don't use standard keybinds.

Once you learned how to operate a video game, you can start doing more difficult content.

Wow, this post feels quite insulting... but I'll just assume it wasn't meant that way.

As I posted, I have basically already mastered using one bar. As you suggested I have already always show skillbar as on. This however does not take away the problem that players need to memorize both bars to be able to use them effectively! Especially when swapping. Expecting players to memorize where they have what skill behind which button, next to all the other things in the game to keep track off, is unrealistic in my opinion. This is a game, you cannot push everyone into this hardcore mindset. Imagine having to do this for multiple alternate characters as well.

I will try how it works when setting weapon swap to something which feels more natural to me. However, weapon swapping is a main game mechanic and should work intuïtively without player interference. You can't expect new players to the game to automatically adjust everything to their liking. Especially if they do not yet know what that something is.
As some player in this thread has already pointed out, most of those 'good players' are using add-ons for everything in-game. Something you also cannot reasonably expect a new/fresh player to do. (a sticky thread in general discussion or the launcher stating the most used add-ons, and what they are for, could be usefull)

The problem with you saying if you have problems with weapon swapping, which only occurs in TESO btw, that these players shouldn't go veteran dungeons or go for monster sets is exactly the problem I meant to address with my solutions. TESO pushes players into high content as some items only drop there. This leaves pro players saying they always run into 'bad players', as called in this thread, while the 'bad players' end up with toxic comments thrown at them. This chases away both hardcore and casual players from the game.
Besides that, it is also very unrealistic to expect players to learn rotations which will change every time their gear changes. More realistic is to expect players(new, or new build) to follow a build guide, get all the suggested gear, and then start working on their rotations. Due to build advice and showcases, this is why many unexperienced players run veteran level content, they have to for their suggested build.

Your last sentence sounds very insulting and elite, and to me seems like you are saying: "You might like this game, but if you do not want to hardcore learn the character you are on, just quit and go to some other game." The reason for why hardly anyone responds to this thread besides those saying they should learn the game or gtfo, is because most players do not tolerate this toxic kind of behavior.

I do not understand why some pro players want to keep the treshhold, by which the game is accessible, so high. This can only result in losing players, instead of drawing them in. Pro players will always have the advantage, no matter what is added to close the gap. I am in no way asking for the game to be easier, but for some crutches, so non- pro's can atleast get closer to the pro's. Hence my suggestions. In turn, this would also help pro players due to more pleasant dungeon runs. And the more players that stay with the game, the shorter the queue's.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts. I do not mean any of it insulting, or mean in any way.
Thanks for your suggestions and reply

PS: You suggest Q for weapon swap, any suggestions for where to put potion usage then?

I feel you, I really do. Memorizing rotations is one of the most boring things in this game, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

However, if you can't manage 10 buttons...

My advice to you though is to start small. Practice with perhaps just 3 buttons, weaving in the light attacks. Keep doing that on a target dummy, on a overland mob, on a public dungeon boss, on a world boss. Then add in two more 'buffs' to the rotation. Done? Now use the same buttons for the second bar. Make it a muscle memory. Rebind the swap weapon button to something you are used to, like space bar or the middle scroll button on your mouse.

It honestly easy. It's not hardcore at all, all you need is just abit of practice. You did say you've mastered a single bar, so what's another one to you?

Glurin · October 2018

Stigant wrote: »

Go to a boxing gym and tell your new coach that you have no clue how to throw a punch and you also don't like to move your feet faster than walking speed but you would like to stand a chance against their gym champ next week in a ring.

That's the impression the OP makes at me.

That's not really what the problem is here. Right now the coach is saying that your first opponent will be Wimpy McNoodlearms and your second opponent will be Mike Tyson. I know it's an imperfect analogy, but the point is that there should be a steady uphill progression in your skill between those fights, but at the moment it's more like a sheer cliff face.

This is not a l2p issue. This is a design issue.

Sarannah · October 2018

RavenSworn wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm actually glad I stumbled upon this thread, as a recently returned player. I have played many mmo's over my lifetime, some even as hardcore raider.

Since I returned to TESO there have been a few obstacles I ran into. Weapon swapping and using two skillbars has been one of them. Another is being unable to get headpieces from veteran content(and raidgear) as I do not want to do that content and be a burden to players in there. I feel I should learn, gear and understand the game better before going to that level of gameplay. Running normal dungeons seems to be great and easy now.

About ability bar swapping: At the moment I am already quite geared, and using 1 ability bar is going great. But when weapon swapping comes in, there is just too much to think about: Buffs, debuffs, DoT timers, ability cooldowns, cast times, monster/player movements, counter-skills, damage avoidance, did the swap work...while also keeping an eye on health, mana and stamina resources. It just becomes too much. Add in playing multiple characters all with different skillsets, and it becomes even more of a hassle. Not to mention, I've noticed that the players that do master weapon swapping on 1 character, often do not master it on multiple.
The solution I'd like to propose is to add an option to the game to show both ability bars and number the skills 1 to 0 for 10 total skills. And to let the character automatically swap weapons when you use a skill from the other ability bar, but every time you swap weapons there should be a small delay(even if it is the exact same weapon), to compensate not doing it manually(no delay when using skills from the same ability bar). This would make keeping an eye on all skills easier while making weapon swapping more accessible to everyone.

About veteran only headpiece drops: When looking up builds and gear sets for builds, I usually stumble upon this hurdle as these are for me unable to acquire. The last few community guides posted by ZOS also mainly include this type of gear. When trying to find out how to get this gear, I found these are only accessible through veteran dungeons. Which was a massive turn-off for me. I also read these drops used to be available with a ~20% chance from normal dungeon bosses. I do not know why this changed, but alas it did. (Yes, I know about the golden vendor... but waiting a year or more for something is just not realistic.) Right now this pushes low-geared and unexperienced players into veteran content before they are ready for it, exposing pro players to 'bad players' and exposing these unexperienced players to toxic comments from how some pro's react.
Now I can see two solutions to this issue: Make these headpieces drop from normal dungeon bosses with a % chance, and/or let these masks also drop from undaunted chests.

Making high level content more accessible while not pushing players into it before they are ready means shorter queue-times for everyone, less bad players in high content and probably even a healthier game population. Yes, the pro players will always be the pro players doing more damage. But a difference in dps from pro to casual, ranging from 10k-70k with the same gear should not be possible. The changes I propose here do not affect the pro players except for shorter queue-times, but it would lower the treshhold for new players, pro players with alternate characters and players that just cannot get a feel for weapon swapping. It would also show a player's willingness to farm their gear sets and learn their class(food/drink, poisons, potions, etc) before venturing into too high content. Only then can a player be called 'bad' if they do not work for it, not right now when the game pushes players into content they are not ready/geared for.

Remember, this is a game and not everyone wants to play it hardcore. Some play for this awfull thing called "fun".... like me

PS: When searching for builds, gear and solutions on these issues, these two obstacles seem to be the two most common ones amongst players who play(ed) TESO as non-pro's. Some even leaving as they cannot nail the weapon swapping thing. Or them just getting annoyed for getting kicked from veteran dungeons, which they only ran for the headpieces.

When you have problems with swapping your weapons, you don't need monster sets or go to veteran dungeons.

You can start light attacking with the left mouse button and occasionally use skills at the beginning and over time, all this will become fluid.

Set your UI to always show your ability bar, so you know on which bar you are right now.

Bind weapon swap to an accessible key like Q and don't use standard keybinds.

Once you learned how to operate a video game, you can start doing more difficult content.

Wow, this post feels quite insulting... but I'll just assume it wasn't meant that way.

As I posted, I have basically already mastered using one bar. As you suggested I have already always show skillbar as on. This however does not take away the problem that players need to memorize both bars to be able to use them effectively! Especially when swapping. Expecting players to memorize where they have what skill behind which button, next to all the other things in the game to keep track off, is unrealistic in my opinion. This is a game, you cannot push everyone into this hardcore mindset. Imagine having to do this for multiple alternate characters as well.

I will try how it works when setting weapon swap to something which feels more natural to me. However, weapon swapping is a main game mechanic and should work intuïtively without player interference. You can't expect new players to the game to automatically adjust everything to their liking. Especially if they do not yet know what that something is.
As some player in this thread has already pointed out, most of those 'good players' are using add-ons for everything in-game. Something you also cannot reasonably expect a new/fresh player to do. (a sticky thread in general discussion or the launcher stating the most used add-ons, and what they are for, could be usefull)

The problem with you saying if you have problems with weapon swapping, which only occurs in TESO btw, that these players shouldn't go veteran dungeons or go for monster sets is exactly the problem I meant to address with my solutions. TESO pushes players into high content as some items only drop there. This leaves pro players saying they always run into 'bad players', as called in this thread, while the 'bad players' end up with toxic comments thrown at them. This chases away both hardcore and casual players from the game.
Besides that, it is also very unrealistic to expect players to learn rotations which will change every time their gear changes. More realistic is to expect players(new, or new build) to follow a build guide, get all the suggested gear, and then start working on their rotations. Due to build advice and showcases, this is why many unexperienced players run veteran level content, they have to for their suggested build.

Your last sentence sounds very insulting and elite, and to me seems like you are saying: "You might like this game, but if you do not want to hardcore learn the character you are on, just quit and go to some other game." The reason for why hardly anyone responds to this thread besides those saying they should learn the game or gtfo, is because most players do not tolerate this toxic kind of behavior.

I do not understand why some pro players want to keep the treshhold, by which the game is accessible, so high. This can only result in losing players, instead of drawing them in. Pro players will always have the advantage, no matter what is added to close the gap. I am in no way asking for the game to be easier, but for some crutches, so non- pro's can atleast get closer to the pro's. Hence my suggestions. In turn, this would also help pro players due to more pleasant dungeon runs. And the more players that stay with the game, the shorter the queue's.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts. I do not mean any of it insulting, or mean in any way.
Thanks for your suggestions and reply

PS: You suggest Q for weapon swap, any suggestions for where to put potion usage then?

I feel you, I really do. Memorizing rotations is one of the most boring things in this game, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

However, if you can't manage 10 buttons...

My advice to you though is to start small. Practice with perhaps just 3 buttons, weaving in the light attacks. Keep doing that on a target dummy, on a overland mob, on a public dungeon boss, on a world boss. Then add in two more 'buffs' to the rotation. Done? Now use the same buttons for the second bar. Make it a muscle memory. Rebind the swap weapon button to something you are used to, like space bar or the middle scroll button on your mouse.

It honestly easy. It's not hardcore at all, all you need is just abit of practice. You did say you've mastered a single bar, so what's another one to you?

Thanks!
I've already taken all advice from this thread into account, thanks all. Downloaded some add-ons. And setting weapon swap on middle mouse button makes it a gazillion times easier. Have been practicing with it for a bit. But as of now it just feels buffs on backbar run out too fast hehe
Memorizing all skills which you cannot see is bad.... I've easily juggled 26+ skills on other mmo's. But being able to see them is key. I want the 2nd bar to show(havent found an add on that does that yet) Especially when playing multiple characters.

I will still stand by my original point though, some mechanics need some crutches. Especially main game mechanics. I always thought of weapon swapping as something that simply allowed me to use multiple weapons on 1 character. Not as a major dps boost due to more skills/ability rotations.

tunepunk · October 2018

Sarannah wrote: »

I will still stand by my original point though, some mechanics need some crutches. Especially main game mechanics. I always thought of weapon swapping as something that simply allowed me to use multiple weapons on 1 character. Not as a major dps boost due to more skills/ability rotations.

This has always been my take as well.

Different setups for different playstyles.

Switching between offensive and defensive. I guess this is often used in PvP.
Bar1 - Offensive,
Bar2 - Defensive.

Switching between area damage and single target damage Depending on situation
Bar1 - Single target / burst (boss fights)
Bar2 - Area damage (trash mobs, adds)

Switching between Melee or Ranged combat Depending on situation.
Bar1 - Melee range
Bar2 - Ranged

Switching for Utility
Bar1 - Main Combat bar.
Bar2 - Movement speed, gap closer, pull, longer lasting buffs, leveling up skills, etc etc.

Role Switching. Did you notice you can actually select multiple roles in group finder?
Bar1 - DPS
Bar2 - Healer.

There's nowhere in the game where you actually can make use of two bars of stacked effects and dots, unless it's a boss fight which lasts long enough for you to switch during combat. Which is why many people never even bother to learn mid fight bar swaps.

It's pretty pointless going around Tamriel with a DPS raid build all the time, and probably not very useful if you spend most of your time soloing or doing quests.

If you're like me... 80% soloing, 20% group dungeons's and PvP... I rarely swap bars at all, and I wouldn't consider switching gear, mundus, and skills all the time before my intended activity.

If you spend 80% of your time in eso doing end game trials... Yeah.. it makes sense that you wanna maximize your damage output, but for the rest of us who just wanna tag along for those activities sometimes, I just can't be bothered.

Donny_Vito · October 2018

tunepunk wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

I will still stand by my original point though, some mechanics need some crutches. Especially main game mechanics. I always thought of weapon swapping as something that simply allowed me to use multiple weapons on 1 character. Not as a major dps boost due to more skills/ability rotations.

This has always been my take as well.

Different setups for different playstyles.

Switching between offensive and defensive. I guess this is often used in PvP.
Bar1 - Offensive,
Bar2 - Defensive.

Switching between area damage and single target damage Depending on situation
Bar1 - Single target / burst (boss fights)
Bar2 - Area damage (trash mobs, adds)

Switching between Melee or Ranged combat Depending on situation.
Bar1 - Melee range
Bar2 - Ranged

Switching for Utility
Bar1 - Main Combat bar.
Bar2 - Movement speed, gap closer, pull, longer lasting buffs, leveling up skills, etc etc.

Role Switching. Did you notice you can actually select multiple roles in group finder?
Bar1 - DPS
Bar2 - Healer.

There's nowhere in the game where you actually can make use of two bars of stacked effects and dots, unless it's a boss fight which lasts long enough for you to switch during combat. Which is why many people never even bother to learn mid fight bar swaps.

It's pretty pointless going around Tamriel with a DPS raid build all the time, and probably not very useful if you spend most of your time soloing or doing quests.

If you're like me... 80% soloing, 20% group dungeons's and PvP... I rarely swap bars at all, and I wouldn't consider switching gear, mundus, and skills all the time before my intended activity.

If you spend 80% of your time in eso doing end game trials... Yeah.. it makes sense that you wanna maximize your damage output, but for the rest of us who just wanna tag along for those activities sometimes, I just can't be bothered.

As far as the Role Switching comment goes, you can not queue as multiple roles anymore. Obviously, this doesn't deter people from outright selecting the Tank/Healer role when they are a DPS to drastically decrease the time it takes to find a group. Previously, you could tell when someone was a DPS because they would select two, or even three options when searching for a group. Now, we really don't know until you get to the first boss and realize: no taunts, can't take a heavy attack, and outright suck at tanking.

blnchk · October 2018

tunepunk wrote: »

Different setups for different playstyles.

People are used to the way things are, but I agree with your and @Sarannah's take on the idea of swapping bars.

This mechanic is not exclusive to ESO. I'm not a fan in general, but I've also found ESO's implementation the most lacking. Feels like it's missing a premiss, something to help it make sense other than "more dps". It's especially bad in regard to magicka characters, who switch from one stick to ... another stick.

Arthalion1 · October 2018

No, no and no. If you aren't able to bar swap and cast abilities quickly then you will do less dps. That's fair. The game shouldn't be dumbed down to the detriment of many.

It's like asking for Rafael Nadal to be knee capped, so you have a shot against him at tennis.

Undefwun · October 2018

Not gonna read all the replies because the answer is simple: practice and experience.

If you feel you are bad and don't feel like actively getting better and somehow ZOS needs to hand you tools to 'bridge the gap'... please get out... seriously.

Plenty of guides out there, plenty of ppl willing to help.

PS I was pugging some dungeon on my healer farming for something and tried to help a struggling DPS, got told to 'suck a d***' and do a better job healing (That guy died a few times. Seems my healing springs were off by just a bit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

Agenericname · October 2018

Sarannah wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Berenhir wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm actually glad I stumbled upon this thread, as a recently returned player. I have played many mmo's over my lifetime, some even as hardcore raider.

Since I returned to TESO there have been a few obstacles I ran into. Weapon swapping and using two skillbars has been one of them. Another is being unable to get headpieces from veteran content(and raidgear) as I do not want to do that content and be a burden to players in there. I feel I should learn, gear and understand the game better before going to that level of gameplay. Running normal dungeons seems to be great and easy now.

About ability bar swapping: At the moment I am already quite geared, and using 1 ability bar is going great. But when weapon swapping comes in, there is just too much to think about: Buffs, debuffs, DoT timers, ability cooldowns, cast times, monster/player movements, counter-skills, damage avoidance, did the swap work...while also keeping an eye on health, mana and stamina resources. It just becomes too much. Add in playing multiple characters all with different skillsets, and it becomes even more of a hassle. Not to mention, I've noticed that the players that do master weapon swapping on 1 character, often do not master it on multiple.
The solution I'd like to propose is to add an option to the game to show both ability bars and number the skills 1 to 0 for 10 total skills. And to let the character automatically swap weapons when you use a skill from the other ability bar, but every time you swap weapons there should be a small delay(even if it is the exact same weapon), to compensate not doing it manually(no delay when using skills from the same ability bar). This would make keeping an eye on all skills easier while making weapon swapping more accessible to everyone.

About veteran only headpiece drops: When looking up builds and gear sets for builds, I usually stumble upon this hurdle as these are for me unable to acquire. The last few community guides posted by ZOS also mainly include this type of gear. When trying to find out how to get this gear, I found these are only accessible through veteran dungeons. Which was a massive turn-off for me. I also read these drops used to be available with a ~20% chance from normal dungeon bosses. I do not know why this changed, but alas it did. (Yes, I know about the golden vendor... but waiting a year or more for something is just not realistic.) Right now this pushes low-geared and unexperienced players into veteran content before they are ready for it, exposing pro players to 'bad players' and exposing these unexperienced players to toxic comments from how some pro's react.
Now I can see two solutions to this issue: Make these headpieces drop from normal dungeon bosses with a % chance, and/or let these masks also drop from undaunted chests.

Making high level content more accessible while not pushing players into it before they are ready means shorter queue-times for everyone, less bad players in high content and probably even a healthier game population. Yes, the pro players will always be the pro players doing more damage. But a difference in dps from pro to casual, ranging from 10k-70k with the same gear should not be possible. The changes I propose here do not affect the pro players except for shorter queue-times, but it would lower the treshhold for new players, pro players with alternate characters and players that just cannot get a feel for weapon swapping. It would also show a player's willingness to farm their gear sets and learn their class(food/drink, poisons, potions, etc) before venturing into too high content. Only then can a player be called 'bad' if they do not work for it, not right now when the game pushes players into content they are not ready/geared for.

Remember, this is a game and not everyone wants to play it hardcore. Some play for this awfull thing called "fun".... like me

PS: When searching for builds, gear and solutions on these issues, these two obstacles seem to be the two most common ones amongst players who play(ed) TESO as non-pro's. Some even leaving as they cannot nail the weapon swapping thing. Or them just getting annoyed for getting kicked from veteran dungeons, which they only ran for the headpieces.

When you have problems with swapping your weapons, you don't need monster sets or go to veteran dungeons.

You can start light attacking with the left mouse button and occasionally use skills at the beginning and over time, all this will become fluid.

Set your UI to always show your ability bar, so you know on which bar you are right now.

Bind weapon swap to an accessible key like Q and don't use standard keybinds.

Once you learned how to operate a video game, you can start doing more difficult content.

Wow, this post feels quite insulting... but I'll just assume it wasn't meant that way.

As I posted, I have basically already mastered using one bar. As you suggested I have already always show skillbar as on. This however does not take away the problem that players need to memorize both bars to be able to use them effectively! Especially when swapping. Expecting players to memorize where they have what skill behind which button, next to all the other things in the game to keep track off, is unrealistic in my opinion. This is a game, you cannot push everyone into this hardcore mindset. Imagine having to do this for multiple alternate characters as well.

I will try how it works when setting weapon swap to something which feels more natural to me. However, weapon swapping is a main game mechanic and should work intuïtively without player interference. You can't expect new players to the game to automatically adjust everything to their liking. Especially if they do not yet know what that something is.
As some player in this thread has already pointed out, most of those 'good players' are using add-ons for everything in-game. Something you also cannot reasonably expect a new/fresh player to do. (a sticky thread in general discussion or the launcher stating the most used add-ons, and what they are for, could be usefull)

The problem with you saying if you have problems with weapon swapping, which only occurs in TESO btw, that these players shouldn't go veteran dungeons or go for monster sets is exactly the problem I meant to address with my solutions. TESO pushes players into high content as some items only drop there. This leaves pro players saying they always run into 'bad players', as called in this thread, while the 'bad players' end up with toxic comments thrown at them. This chases away both hardcore and casual players from the game.
Besides that, it is also very unrealistic to expect players to learn rotations which will change every time their gear changes. More realistic is to expect players(new, or new build) to follow a build guide, get all the suggested gear, and then start working on their rotations. Due to build advice and showcases, this is why many unexperienced players run veteran level content, they have to for their suggested build.

Your last sentence sounds very insulting and elite, and to me seems like you are saying: "You might like this game, but if you do not want to hardcore learn the character you are on, just quit and go to some other game." The reason for why hardly anyone responds to this thread besides those saying they should learn the game or gtfo, is because most players do not tolerate this toxic kind of behavior.

I do not understand why some pro players want to keep the treshhold, by which the game is accessible, so high. This can only result in losing players, instead of drawing them in. Pro players will always have the advantage, no matter what is added to close the gap. I am in no way asking for the game to be easier, but for some crutches, so non- pro's can atleast get closer to the pro's. Hence my suggestions. In turn, this would also help pro players due to more pleasant dungeon runs. And the more players that stay with the game, the shorter the queue's.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts. I do not mean any of it insulting, or mean in any way.
Thanks for your suggestions and reply

PS: You suggest Q for weapon swap, any suggestions for where to put potion usage then?

I feel you, I really do. Memorizing rotations is one of the most boring things in this game, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

However, if you can't manage 10 buttons...

My advice to you though is to start small. Practice with perhaps just 3 buttons, weaving in the light attacks. Keep doing that on a target dummy, on a overland mob, on a public dungeon boss, on a world boss. Then add in two more 'buffs' to the rotation. Done? Now use the same buttons for the second bar. Make it a muscle memory. Rebind the swap weapon button to something you are used to, like space bar or the middle scroll button on your mouse.

It honestly easy. It's not hardcore at all, all you need is just abit of practice. You did say you've mastered a single bar, so what's another one to you?

Thanks!
I've already taken all advice from this thread into account, thanks all. Downloaded some add-ons. And setting weapon swap on middle mouse button makes it a gazillion times easier. Have been practicing with it for a bit. But as of now it just feels buffs on backbar run out too fast hehe
Memorizing all skills which you cannot see is bad.... I've easily juggled 26+ skills on other mmo's. But being able to see them is key. I want the 2nd bar to show(havent found an add on that does that yet) Especially when playing multiple characters.

I will still stand by my original point though, some mechanics need some crutches. Especially main game mechanics. I always thought of weapon swapping as something that simply allowed me to use multiple weapons on 1 character. Not as a major dps boost due to more skills/ability rotations.

You can use Action Duration Reminder or Srendarr to see your ability durations. IMO ADR is a little more intuitive and basically gives you a second bar above what you have equipped to see what's running. Srendarr is far more customizable and detailed, but less intuitve IMO.

The problem that many people have that prevents them from achieving their desired DPS is rotation. Crutch mechanics such as monster helms on normal wont bridge that gap. They'll offer a marginal increase in DPS at best, but whatever the disconnect is that prevents a player from transitioning between groups 1 and 2 will still exist.

A healthier solution overall would be to create the tools and an environment that allowed and encouraged those that wish to improve to do so in game.

Joy_Division · October 2018

Rungar wrote: »

before you do that you have to admit a few things. At least on pc.

"good players" often use combat notifications to let them know when to dodge, block etc.
"good players" often use macro programs like the razr mice to help automate light attack weaving and burst.

That's not what makes good players good.

Assumption such as that is what exposes bad players when faced with good players.

Rungar · October 2018

green and defensive. Touch a nerve?

Glurin · October 2018

Agenericname wrote: »

The problem that many people have that prevents them from achieving their desired DPS is rotation. Crutch mechanics such as monster helms on normal wont bridge that gap. They'll offer a marginal increase in DPS at best, but whatever the disconnect is that prevents a player from transitioning between groups 1 and 2 will still exist.

A healthier solution overall would be to create the tools and an environment that allowed and encouraged those that wish to improve to do so in game.

No, it's more than that. An improved rotation shouldn't be producing results quite so dramatic as we see right now.

Someone in another thread on this subject might have hit on something I think when he said we have a lot of percentage based bonuses. So for example, consider if every aspect gave a 50% bonus to DPS. Using the "correct" race, the "correct" skills, the "correct" sets, etc. etc. Put some of these together and you get to say, 10k DPS. Add one more aspect and you get 50% more damage, which would only be 5k. So now you're at 15k. But look at what happens to someone who is at 30k. They start using the "correct" rotation (again, just as an example) and suddenly they're at 45k.

I don't know how much stock to put in that. I just think it's something worth considering. The main driving point though, at least for me, is that with results like this you might as well just toss the whole "play as you want" concept out the window. You're basically saying that in order to get DPS results of any significance, and thus stand any kind of real chance in vetDLC/trials, you must select one of a very short and specific list of race/class/build/rotation combinations.

Nobody is arguing that you should be able to pull 50k with a random smattering of abilities on your bar and gear that consists of whatever items you pulled at random out of the laundry basket. But there's no question that there's a pretty wide gap going on between people who can consistently pull 30-40k+ and people who struggle to get to 15-20k.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ultimately, there are three types of players in this game, but there is a bit of a spectrum between the last two. I will explain.

1. The first type of player is bad either by choice or due to not being able to press buttons satisfactorily. These are the ones you see bashing AC on the forums, spamming bow light attacks in the corner on a high elf, etc. They stink for one reason or another. Things like werewolf, Overload back in the day, etc, can be a reasonable band aid solution. I have no problem with them as long as they arent leading DPS races (which they arent currently).

2. The second type of player is one that has a reasonable understanding of the game, has researched or developed a competent build, and has practiced their rotation. These are the people clearing most if not all vet content, but they arent setting WR scores. They are often in BIS or close to BIS gear, and their ability to weave and AC is competent. They either do static rotations, or a somewhat simplified dynamic rotation. Type 2 is not as prevalent as type 1 overall, but type two makes up the bulk of the end game community.

3. Type three is the pure min.maxer that surrounds themselves with the same. They run meta gear, meta group comps, and use dynamic rotations. Their goal is to push score in whatever content they are doing. They are by far the smallest group, but they are often the most visible on youtube and the like. 2 and 3 can blend a bit depending on how competent a player is with a dynamic rotation as it is more of a sliding scale.

You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded. The gap between 2 and 3, however, has widened significantly in the past year or so. This is largely due to the emergence of dynamic rotations, as it is the highest skill barrier in the game.

If your goal is to close the gap between 1 and 3, you will be left with a pile of garbage that nobody wants to play. Bad players will always be bad. If your goal is to close the gap between 2 and 3, well that IMO is reasonable as long is your goal is to not completely eliminate it. Again, time, skill and effort should be rewarded.

As the biggest culprit between the two is the rise of the dynamic rotation, the obvious way to shrink the gap it to reduce the benefits of such a rotation. The most obvious way to do that is to homogenize skill duration among various types of skills. If all single target DOTS were 10 seconds, and all player buffs/debuffs were say 20 seconds, a purely dynamic rotation would not be as beneficial.

I am certainly not suggesting broad sweeping changes across the board, but it is something I think they should consider in future content updates when trying to control the gap, which is frankly getting a little out of control.

There is just one flaw with your statement, going from a static to a dynamic rotation is good design and rewards actual skill rather than good ping and the usage of macros. LA weaving on the other hand is bad design, because it is unintuitive and does reward good ping and basically screams "this is something that should be macroed". Intuitively people treat light attacks the way experienced players treat spammables, so this is exactly how the devs should treat them when they design game aspects like gear and other skills (after putting LA on the same GCD as skills, the way Overload works before Murkmire and Mend Wounds) if they want the game to be more accessible. Going from group 1 to 2 will still be quite a steep learning curve, but at least it will be a logical and obvious one.

And this is coming from someone on the higher end of group 2 with near perfect LA weaving who is doing around 40k dps with a static rotation on multiple characters.

@ZeroXFF

I am not sure it's actually a flaw in my statement. Of course a dynamic rotation rewards skill, and of course, I think that is a good thing. I even stated, "You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded." I play a dynamic rotation, maybe not as well as Liko or LZH, but I certainly use one, and i practice it constantly.

I am certainly not suggesting that be eliminated. What I am suggesting is that perhaps the gap between dynamic rotations and non dynamics rotations has gotten a little out of line as of late. I believe that is hard to argue with when you look at what the guilds at the top are able to do compare to average guilds. We were just talking about this the other day in my guild discord.

Do we want 2 guilds competing for top score or do we want 10 or more? Probably the time where you actually had the most guilds attempting to compete and push score was the heavy attack mSorc and sDK meta (post VMOL, Pre VHOF). Now, I think that was a little too far to the other extreme, as those rotations where frankly boring, but If I am being honest with myself, I think a middle ground would be healthier for the game. During that era a lot more players were able to execute a rotation at the highest level because it was easier. Its not an either or, its a spectrum. I think we have swung to far the other way. I think the easiest way to close the gap dynamic and non-dynamic rotations would be to make an effort to standardize skill durations to some degree.

End of the day, a small percent of the player-base is going to play dynamically and a much larger is going to play with a static rotation. ZOS has stated they want to close the gap, well this is the biggest source of it.

ZeroXFF · October 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ultimately, there are three types of players in this game, but there is a bit of a spectrum between the last two. I will explain.

1. The first type of player is bad either by choice or due to not being able to press buttons satisfactorily. These are the ones you see bashing AC on the forums, spamming bow light attacks in the corner on a high elf, etc. They stink for one reason or another. Things like werewolf, Overload back in the day, etc, can be a reasonable band aid solution. I have no problem with them as long as they arent leading DPS races (which they arent currently).

2. The second type of player is one that has a reasonable understanding of the game, has researched or developed a competent build, and has practiced their rotation. These are the people clearing most if not all vet content, but they arent setting WR scores. They are often in BIS or close to BIS gear, and their ability to weave and AC is competent. They either do static rotations, or a somewhat simplified dynamic rotation. Type 2 is not as prevalent as type 1 overall, but type two makes up the bulk of the end game community.

3. Type three is the pure min.maxer that surrounds themselves with the same. They run meta gear, meta group comps, and use dynamic rotations. Their goal is to push score in whatever content they are doing. They are by far the smallest group, but they are often the most visible on youtube and the like. 2 and 3 can blend a bit depending on how competent a player is with a dynamic rotation as it is more of a sliding scale.

You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded. The gap between 2 and 3, however, has widened significantly in the past year or so. This is largely due to the emergence of dynamic rotations, as it is the highest skill barrier in the game.

If your goal is to close the gap between 1 and 3, you will be left with a pile of garbage that nobody wants to play. Bad players will always be bad. If your goal is to close the gap between 2 and 3, well that IMO is reasonable as long is your goal is to not completely eliminate it. Again, time, skill and effort should be rewarded.

As the biggest culprit between the two is the rise of the dynamic rotation, the obvious way to shrink the gap it to reduce the benefits of such a rotation. The most obvious way to do that is to homogenize skill duration among various types of skills. If all single target DOTS were 10 seconds, and all player buffs/debuffs were say 20 seconds, a purely dynamic rotation would not be as beneficial.

I am certainly not suggesting broad sweeping changes across the board, but it is something I think they should consider in future content updates when trying to control the gap, which is frankly getting a little out of control.

There is just one flaw with your statement, going from a static to a dynamic rotation is good design and rewards actual skill rather than good ping and the usage of macros. LA weaving on the other hand is bad design, because it is unintuitive and does reward good ping and basically screams "this is something that should be macroed". Intuitively people treat light attacks the way experienced players treat spammables, so this is exactly how the devs should treat them when they design game aspects like gear and other skills (after putting LA on the same GCD as skills, the way Overload works before Murkmire and Mend Wounds) if they want the game to be more accessible. Going from group 1 to 2 will still be quite a steep learning curve, but at least it will be a logical and obvious one.

And this is coming from someone on the higher end of group 2 with near perfect LA weaving who is doing around 40k dps with a static rotation on multiple characters.

@ZeroXFF

I am not sure it's actually a flaw in my statement. Of course a dynamic rotation rewards skill, and of course, I think that is a good thing. I even stated, "You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded." I play a dynamic rotation, maybe not as well as Liko or LZH, but I certainly use one, and i practice it constantly.

I am certainly not suggesting that be eliminated. What I am suggesting is that perhaps the gap between dynamic rotations and non dynamics rotations has gotten a little out of line as of late. I believe that is hard to argue with when you look at what the guilds at the top are able to do compare to average guilds. We were just talking about this the other day in my guild discord.

Do we want 2 guilds competing for top score or do we want 10 or more? Probably the time where you actually had the most guilds attempting to compete and push score was the heavy attack mSorc and sDK meta (post VMOL, Pre VHOF). Now, I think that was a little too far to the other extreme, as those rotations where frankly boring, but If I am being honest with myself, I think a middle ground would be healthier for the game. During that era a lot more players were able to execute a rotation at the highest level because it was easier. Its not an either or, its a spectrum. I think we have swung to far the other way. I think the easiest way to close the gap dynamic and non-dynamic rotations would be to make an effort to standardize skill durations to some degree.

End of the day, a small percent of the player-base is going to play dynamically and a much larger is going to play with a static rotation. ZOS has stated they want to close the gap, well this is the biggest source of it.

But you're focusing on reducing the reward for actual skill instead of reducing the reward for using broken game mechanics. Dynamic rotation is skill, LA weaving is broken. And getting rid of LA weaving would also close the gap between all groups (especially between 1 and 2).

mongoLC · October 2018

Right now damage is so high I can carry low cp players pretty easy through non-dlc dungeons. I usually tell the other low dps to check out alcasts website for pointers on how they can raise their dps. Or actually help them. After nerfmire probably just go back to kicking low cp players.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · October 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ultimately, there are three types of players in this game, but there is a bit of a spectrum between the last two. I will explain.

1. The first type of player is bad either by choice or due to not being able to press buttons satisfactorily. These are the ones you see bashing AC on the forums, spamming bow light attacks in the corner on a high elf, etc. They stink for one reason or another. Things like werewolf, Overload back in the day, etc, can be a reasonable band aid solution. I have no problem with them as long as they arent leading DPS races (which they arent currently).

2. The second type of player is one that has a reasonable understanding of the game, has researched or developed a competent build, and has practiced their rotation. These are the people clearing most if not all vet content, but they arent setting WR scores. They are often in BIS or close to BIS gear, and their ability to weave and AC is competent. They either do static rotations, or a somewhat simplified dynamic rotation. Type 2 is not as prevalent as type 1 overall, but type two makes up the bulk of the end game community.

3. Type three is the pure min.maxer that surrounds themselves with the same. They run meta gear, meta group comps, and use dynamic rotations. Their goal is to push score in whatever content they are doing. They are by far the smallest group, but they are often the most visible on youtube and the like. 2 and 3 can blend a bit depending on how competent a player is with a dynamic rotation as it is more of a sliding scale.

You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded. The gap between 2 and 3, however, has widened significantly in the past year or so. This is largely due to the emergence of dynamic rotations, as it is the highest skill barrier in the game.

If your goal is to close the gap between 1 and 3, you will be left with a pile of garbage that nobody wants to play. Bad players will always be bad. If your goal is to close the gap between 2 and 3, well that IMO is reasonable as long is your goal is to not completely eliminate it. Again, time, skill and effort should be rewarded.

As the biggest culprit between the two is the rise of the dynamic rotation, the obvious way to shrink the gap it to reduce the benefits of such a rotation. The most obvious way to do that is to homogenize skill duration among various types of skills. If all single target DOTS were 10 seconds, and all player buffs/debuffs were say 20 seconds, a purely dynamic rotation would not be as beneficial.

I am certainly not suggesting broad sweeping changes across the board, but it is something I think they should consider in future content updates when trying to control the gap, which is frankly getting a little out of control.

There is just one flaw with your statement, going from a static to a dynamic rotation is good design and rewards actual skill rather than good ping and the usage of macros. LA weaving on the other hand is bad design, because it is unintuitive and does reward good ping and basically screams "this is something that should be macroed". Intuitively people treat light attacks the way experienced players treat spammables, so this is exactly how the devs should treat them when they design game aspects like gear and other skills (after putting LA on the same GCD as skills, the way Overload works before Murkmire and Mend Wounds) if they want the game to be more accessible. Going from group 1 to 2 will still be quite a steep learning curve, but at least it will be a logical and obvious one.

And this is coming from someone on the higher end of group 2 with near perfect LA weaving who is doing around 40k dps with a static rotation on multiple characters.

@ZeroXFF

I am not sure it's actually a flaw in my statement. Of course a dynamic rotation rewards skill, and of course, I think that is a good thing. I even stated, "You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded." I play a dynamic rotation, maybe not as well as Liko or LZH, but I certainly use one, and i practice it constantly.

I am certainly not suggesting that be eliminated. What I am suggesting is that perhaps the gap between dynamic rotations and non dynamics rotations has gotten a little out of line as of late. I believe that is hard to argue with when you look at what the guilds at the top are able to do compare to average guilds. We were just talking about this the other day in my guild discord.

Do we want 2 guilds competing for top score or do we want 10 or more? Probably the time where you actually had the most guilds attempting to compete and push score was the heavy attack mSorc and sDK meta (post VMOL, Pre VHOF). Now, I think that was a little too far to the other extreme, as those rotations where frankly boring, but If I am being honest with myself, I think a middle ground would be healthier for the game. During that era a lot more players were able to execute a rotation at the highest level because it was easier. Its not an either or, its a spectrum. I think we have swung to far the other way. I think the easiest way to close the gap dynamic and non-dynamic rotations would be to make an effort to standardize skill durations to some degree.

End of the day, a small percent of the player-base is going to play dynamically and a much larger is going to play with a static rotation. ZOS has stated they want to close the gap, well this is the biggest source of it.

But you're focusing on reducing the reward for actual skill instead of reducing the reward for using broken game mechanics. Dynamic rotation is skill, LA weaving is broken. And getting rid of LA weaving would also close the gap between all groups (especially between 1 and 2).

LA weaving absolutely takes skill, not sure why you think it doesnt. LA weaving has been around since launch. Dynamic rotations really only become super prevalent post morrowind when everyone hoped on the mageblade bandwagon. Since then we have seen a sharp increase in the gap between the best of the best and your average raiding guild (that still takes things very seriously). Now virtually all classes are being played dynamically at the highest level (although on live, that's really only one class).

So you are correct that I dont think we should alter weaving, a game mechanic that has been there since launch, which IMO is in no way broken. Its there for everyone to use. It takes skill but not obscene amounts of skill to be effective. Nor am I suggesting that we give no incentive to those that are able to expand their rotation and play dynamically. That would be a step in the wrong direction. What I am suggesting is that perhaps we look to reign it in a bit.

Think of it this way:

Weaving is pass fail. You can either effectively weave or you cant. if you can't weave from a skill standpoint, no way you can pull of a dynamic rotation. If you removed the ability to weave you would see a flat reduction in DPS from anyone that weaves, which is all of groups 2 and 3 that I outlined. You might close the gap between 1 and 2, but that is not really the problem we are talking about. Bad players are just going be bad in most cases, and I certainly dont want to balance combat around that, which is essentially what removing weaving would do.

Dynamic Rotations are more of a sliding scale. Once you break out of the static bubble, there can be huge DPS differences based on how effective you are at juggling skills independently. I would never suggest removing that advantage, but I think the differences under ideal conditions between a static and dynamic rotation is something that needs to be analyzed and addressed. The best way that I can see to reign things in would be to standardize skill duration to some degree, especially within the classes themselves. I am certainly not suggesting giving every skill the same length. Rather, they should perhaps look at how rotations are performed statically and dynamically on each class, and then analyze the tool kit of each class to perhaps find a middle ground so one doesnt wildly outperform the other.

ZeroXFF · October 2018

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ultimately, there are three types of players in this game, but there is a bit of a spectrum between the last two. I will explain.

1. The first type of player is bad either by choice or due to not being able to press buttons satisfactorily. These are the ones you see bashing AC on the forums, spamming bow light attacks in the corner on a high elf, etc. They stink for one reason or another. Things like werewolf, Overload back in the day, etc, can be a reasonable band aid solution. I have no problem with them as long as they arent leading DPS races (which they arent currently).

2. The second type of player is one that has a reasonable understanding of the game, has researched or developed a competent build, and has practiced their rotation. These are the people clearing most if not all vet content, but they arent setting WR scores. They are often in BIS or close to BIS gear, and their ability to weave and AC is competent. They either do static rotations, or a somewhat simplified dynamic rotation. Type 2 is not as prevalent as type 1 overall, but type two makes up the bulk of the end game community.

3. Type three is the pure min.maxer that surrounds themselves with the same. They run meta gear, meta group comps, and use dynamic rotations. Their goal is to push score in whatever content they are doing. They are by far the smallest group, but they are often the most visible on youtube and the like. 2 and 3 can blend a bit depending on how competent a player is with a dynamic rotation as it is more of a sliding scale.

You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded. The gap between 2 and 3, however, has widened significantly in the past year or so. This is largely due to the emergence of dynamic rotations, as it is the highest skill barrier in the game.

If your goal is to close the gap between 1 and 3, you will be left with a pile of garbage that nobody wants to play. Bad players will always be bad. If your goal is to close the gap between 2 and 3, well that IMO is reasonable as long is your goal is to not completely eliminate it. Again, time, skill and effort should be rewarded.

As the biggest culprit between the two is the rise of the dynamic rotation, the obvious way to shrink the gap it to reduce the benefits of such a rotation. The most obvious way to do that is to homogenize skill duration among various types of skills. If all single target DOTS were 10 seconds, and all player buffs/debuffs were say 20 seconds, a purely dynamic rotation would not be as beneficial.

I am certainly not suggesting broad sweeping changes across the board, but it is something I think they should consider in future content updates when trying to control the gap, which is frankly getting a little out of control.

There is just one flaw with your statement, going from a static to a dynamic rotation is good design and rewards actual skill rather than good ping and the usage of macros. LA weaving on the other hand is bad design, because it is unintuitive and does reward good ping and basically screams "this is something that should be macroed". Intuitively people treat light attacks the way experienced players treat spammables, so this is exactly how the devs should treat them when they design game aspects like gear and other skills (after putting LA on the same GCD as skills, the way Overload works before Murkmire and Mend Wounds) if they want the game to be more accessible. Going from group 1 to 2 will still be quite a steep learning curve, but at least it will be a logical and obvious one.

And this is coming from someone on the higher end of group 2 with near perfect LA weaving who is doing around 40k dps with a static rotation on multiple characters.

@ZeroXFF

I am not sure it's actually a flaw in my statement. Of course a dynamic rotation rewards skill, and of course, I think that is a good thing. I even stated, "You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded." I play a dynamic rotation, maybe not as well as Liko or LZH, but I certainly use one, and i practice it constantly.

I am certainly not suggesting that be eliminated. What I am suggesting is that perhaps the gap between dynamic rotations and non dynamics rotations has gotten a little out of line as of late. I believe that is hard to argue with when you look at what the guilds at the top are able to do compare to average guilds. We were just talking about this the other day in my guild discord.

Do we want 2 guilds competing for top score or do we want 10 or more? Probably the time where you actually had the most guilds attempting to compete and push score was the heavy attack mSorc and sDK meta (post VMOL, Pre VHOF). Now, I think that was a little too far to the other extreme, as those rotations where frankly boring, but If I am being honest with myself, I think a middle ground would be healthier for the game. During that era a lot more players were able to execute a rotation at the highest level because it was easier. Its not an either or, its a spectrum. I think we have swung to far the other way. I think the easiest way to close the gap dynamic and non-dynamic rotations would be to make an effort to standardize skill durations to some degree.

End of the day, a small percent of the player-base is going to play dynamically and a much larger is going to play with a static rotation. ZOS has stated they want to close the gap, well this is the biggest source of it.

But you're focusing on reducing the reward for actual skill instead of reducing the reward for using broken game mechanics. Dynamic rotation is skill, LA weaving is broken. And getting rid of LA weaving would also close the gap between all groups (especially between 1 and 2).

LA weaving absolutely takes skill, not sure why you think it doesnt. LA weaving has been around since launch. Dynamic rotations really only become super prevalent post morrowind when everyone hoped on the mageblade bandwagon. Since then we have seen a sharp increase in the gap between the best of the best and your average raiding guild (that still takes things very seriously). Now virtually all classes are being played dynamically at the highest level (although on live, that's really only one class).

So you are correct that I dont think we should alter weaving, a game mechanic that has been there since launch, which IMO is in no way broken. Its there for everyone to use. It takes skill but not obscene amounts of skill to be effective. Nor am I suggesting that we give no incentive to those that are able to expand their rotation and play dynamically. That would be a step in the wrong direction. What I am suggesting is that perhaps we look to reign it in a bit.

Think of it this way:

Weaving is pass fail. You can either effectively weave or you cant. if you can't weave from a skill standpoint, no way you can pull of a dynamic rotation. If you removed the ability to weave you would see a flat reduction in DPS from anyone that weaves, which is all of groups 2 and 3 that I outlined. You might close the gap between 1 and 2, but that is not really the problem we are talking about. Bad players are just going be bad in most cases, and I certainly dont want to balance combat around that, which is essentially what removing weaving would do.

Dynamic Rotations are more of a sliding scale. Once you break out of the static bubble, there can be huge DPS differences based on how effective you are at juggling skills independently. I would never suggest removing that advantage, but I think the differences under ideal conditions between a static and dynamic rotation is something that needs to be analyzed and addressed. The best way that I can see to reign things in would be to standardize skill duration to some degree, especially within the classes themselves. I am certainly not suggesting giving every skill the same length. Rather, they should perhaps look at how rotations are performed statically and dynamically on each class, and then analyze the tool kit of each class to perhaps find a middle ground so one doesnt wildly outperform the other.

But if both group 2 and 3 do lower damage, they can balance new content around that, creating less of a gap between old and new content, providing a more gradual difficulty curve, and making it easier to find the sweet spot where they make the content doable for lower skilled players and making it impossible to just skip mechanics with more DPS keeping it engaging for highly skilled players, which is also a good thing.

And while we can argue about LA weaving being "skill", depending on whether you consider mindlessly pressing the same button every second regardless of what's going on "skill", it definitely does not add any depth to the game. It's just an unnecessary complication from the perspective of game design. It's in fact so stupid, there is literally not a single gameplay reason not to macro it, because you're doing it at the same moment when you're using a skill already anyways. It's as if while playing lotto you always had to pick the number 1, because the lottery always had 1 in their winning numbers, regardless of what other numbers were rolled. It's absolutely pointless.

I don't understand why people still don't see how stupid that is.

That it would have the desirable effect of bringing the floor and ceiling closer is just a bonus.

tunepunk · October 2018

Well sir, I think you're on to something.

Skill duration has always been a bit of an issue. Generally I think they should be shorter but more powerful. It would take more skill to maximize a rotation with shorter skill duration skills, as you would have to reapply mote often.

Skill duration is also a limiting factor to the max dps, since sooner or later you need to reapply them for maximum uptime, and if you don't reapply in time it's a dps loss.

If the max rotation cycle only allowed for X numbers of skills to be kept up at any given time. A good player could still fit as much as possible in that span, but the less feeble player would be happy with keeping up as many as they can.

The difference between the good and the bad player will be less.

Currently, too many skills and buffs can be kept up imo. The good player can keep up many buffs, many dots, potion, ulti and weaving with perfect timing, while sustaining healthy levels of resources. A bad player can keep up what they have one bar, and at most some backbar buffs, potion, and an ulti, weaving in a few heavy attacks for sustain.

Shorter but stronger skills will require more skill for the top players (fewer skills in total to keep up, but timing will be a bigger factor) but the less versatile player will be stronger, and the power gap will be smaller.

Rungar · October 2018

i personally feel that light attack weaving or more specifically the lack of a true global cooldown is the only real combat problem eso has. pvp(burst) and pve (weave). Both are exploitable with simple tech and add nothing to the game other than to chase people away from pvp, exclude them from vet trials and generate pointless lag.

perhaps i just fail to see the value of it or maybe it just has none.

Flame_of_Hades · October 2018

Rungar wrote: »

before you do that you have to admit a few things. At least on pc.

"good players" often use combat notifications to let them know when to dodge, block etc.
"good players" often use macro programs like the razr mice to help automate light attack weaving and burst.
"good players" often have really fast connection speeds

i don't use combat notifications...
i don't use macro's to weave...
the first time i saw 100 ping was about 2 months ago...

yes, you said "often use", but don't gimp me because people are breaking the ToS with macro's. (having something else input for you, unintended/intended side effect of the wording banning bots.)

Red_Feather · October 2018

I really think the game should remove animation canceling in it's current form. It's not properly done. It honestly feels like the game is just using seperate GCDs between hotbar and non-hotbar stuff. Spasming out extra dps depending on ping and muscle memory is not good. It widens the gap between players so much in a way that cannot be closed.

If the game still keeps the light attack weaving in there, but clean it up to be a proper mechanic, then it won't be so bad. Right now I see it as pretty off-putting. New players see a video showing how much animation canceling you can do to create a combo of spasms and it makes the game's combat look so sloppy.

jcm2606 · October 2018

Red_Feather wrote: »

I really think the game should remove animation canceling in it's current form. It's not properly done. It honestly feels like the game is just using seperate GCDs between hotbar and non-hotbar stuff. Spasming out extra dps depending on ping and muscle memory is not good. It widens the gap between players so much in a way that cannot be closed.

If the game still keeps the light attack weaving in there, but clean it up to be a proper mechanic, then it won't be so bad. Right now I see it as pretty off-putting. New players see a video showing how much animation canceling you can do to create a combo of spasms and it makes the game's combat look so sloppy.

That isn't so much a problem with animation cancelling in itself, but the animation system. To put it bluntly, ESO's animation system is awful. The "flow" between animations barely exists, there is no use of animation blending and inverse kinematics to smoothly blend between two different animations, and in general the animations just suck.

If Zenimax were to work on revamping their animation system, implementing proper animation blending and inverse kinematics, then weaving would honestly look much cleaner.

Inverse kinematics, or IK, is a technique used to dynamically generate more realistic animations, and can be used to aid in blending between two different animations.

The current technique of kinematics, or animation, is we adjust the rotation of all the joints in our character in order to have a certain part of our character sit in a desired location in the world. For example, if we want our character's hand to rest on a table, or something, what we do is we adjust the rotations of the shoulder, elbow and wrist joints in such a way that the hand will rest on the table.

With IK, we do the opposite, we adjust the location of a particular bone in the skeleton, and let the code work out what the rotation of each joint should be. Going back to our example, what we'd do is we'd give each joint in the arm a set of parameters, such as "you can only rotate this far", then we simply move the hand onto where we want it to rest on the table, and our code will automatically calculate and adjust the rotations of each of the joints in our arm.

IK results in smoother and more realistic animation, assuming the parameters are correct, while making the animation team's job much easier. IK is what powers a lot of modern animation engines, namely in Ubisoft's games, and is already used in ESO for working out how the legs should be animated when standing idle, should you enable foot inverse kinematics.

Zenimax could extend their IK system to handle character animation in general, and with a sufficiently robust IK system, they could have very smooth and realistic skill animations, allowing the character to blend between two animations smoothly.

NyxWrench · October 2018

tunepunk wrote: »

I've seen people struggle to hit 20k on a skelly. Sure they might not get everything right. Bet when they feel ready, and have the time to practice and start to compete they could go for meta builds and practice complex rotations, or not.... if it's not their cup of tea, but they should at least be able to participate.

/waves hand

I have not yet hit 20k DPS on my magSorc. My current best is 19k. A few weeks ago, it was 18k. I'm also at CP340 or so, and was around CP300 when I got 18k (and had been creeping upwards in the weeks before that, probably around 16k-17k).

While it looks like I got better, I have to wonder whether the improvement was solely because of more CP, rather than an actual improvement in skill. Any attempts I make to speed things up generally either cancels light attacks entirely, or causes skills to not fire, so it feels like the limit of what I can physically manage.

However, if I extrapolate out the same gains from CP increases to the 780/810 limit, I should eventually reach around 28k-30k DPS. Which then leads me to wonder whether all the comments about it being "easy" to hit 30k DPS are from people at max CP who ignore the impact that CP has on a player's output, and then mock people who can't reach those numbers when they're still around 200-500 CP.

Of course that's not the only factor. I have no gear that I cannot collect myself, which means only overland and crafted gear, plus any dungeons I can manage to solo on normal mode (and I have not found anything in that latter group that seems worthwhile).

Looking at what some of the best-in-slot gear does, there are some absolutely massive boosts to damage potential from some of the high-end gear. And (not entirely unreasonably) pretty much anyone talking about DPS values is going to view it from the perspective having access to some of the best gear possible. That does leave me, someone without any of that high-end gear, nor the money to make everything gold on a whim, completely clueless about how much damage I "should" be able to do, given my current circumstances.

For example, am I weaving decently? Probably not, but I don't have any realistic benchmark to compare myself to. No one is ever interested in showing how people should progress, in either CP or gear, instead only comparing the sky-high numbers that are clearly the only worthwhile goal. All I can do is try to work out the math of what is actually doable. Maybe I need to start collating this information myself, and make a thread somewhere.

There are, of course, other factors. Use of ultimates is not an ingrained habit for newer players, and thus won't necessarily be included in a DPS test. Use of potions is using an extra external resource that I personally still cannot incorporate in my activities, as it just goes against the grain of how I approach the game. Potions are a limited resource, and, to me, should only be used when necessary, not chugged on a continuous basis like a junkie. Yet these types of things are implicitly included in DPS numbers, without most demo-ers spending the effort to explain what sort of differences they make.

These are things that experienced players might include naturally, but that might never even occur to beginner players, making their DPS potential look worse than it is because they're not actually comparing the same things.

The point, in relation to the current topic, is that there's not just one thing a bad DD needs to learn, nor one factor in them being a 'bad' DD. Limiting the scope of what needs to be learned helps make learning those things easier. You don't learn how to drive in a Formula 1.

tunepunk · October 2018

@NyxWrench Agree completely.

Up until just recently, and I've been playing for years, I've seen potions as a *** I'm low on health and resources, and not as a 6th skill, using it for Damage and Crit Chance buff.

Nowadays though I learned to use potions that way. Pop potion pre boss fight. It lasts longer than normal buffs, so needs to be refreshed less often, and I don't need to slot the buff on my skill bar.

Same goes for ultimates. It's a skill that has always been on my bar for emergency/burn situations, not as part of a rotation. Or as a stamina class used flawless dawnbreaker only for the passive increase to weapon damage, rarely using the skill itself.

2 bar optimised boss fight rotations with animation cancelling/weaving is not obvious for new players and some (like me) after years never even get used to it, as they spend 95% of their time exploring overland, and doing quests and collecting skill points.... less then 1 percent of your time you are actually engaging group dungeon boss fights.

1. Are they using potions? (i guess many just use them for resource/healing, emergency)
2. What food are they usually using, if any. (my first 2 years of playing i didn't even bother with food)
3. Are they bar swapping? (maybe some do, but maybe not as part of a rotation)
4. Do they stack dots?
5. How and when do they use their ultimates? (maybe mostly use them in emergency situations?)
6. Do they spam their dps skill? (Looking at how people play overland, I would say yes)
7. Do they spam light attacks? (Some do)
8. Which skills do they use?

Casuals don't need to be competitive, but at least buffed to do the minimum threshold required for participation. The span between a "bad" casual and a top dps is currently 15-60k ... if anyone could do 30k by using some buff, and dot, and spamming their main dps skill like wrecking blow/sweeps and reach 30k that would be perfectly fine. If you're doing that now, you'll reach about 20k even with decent golded gear at max CP. The span should be 30-60k instead of15-60k.

How ZOS solves the problem is up to them, but they need to have a casual representative to look at how they are actually playing the game. And I certainly don't think that complex rotations, weaving and dot stacking should be forced on people to at least be able to participate. If you're aiming high and want to compete... go ahead min/max, meta, BiS, dynamic rotations, all you want. But some people simply don't want to play that way JUST to be able to participate.

With the right gear choises:
Light attack builds should be viable but not competitive. (buffs, some dots & and mainly light attacks)
Skills spammer builds should be viable but not competitive. (buff, dots & spam main dps skill, with some heavy for sustain)
Single bar build should be viable but not competitive. (stack and upkeep as much as you can without much barswap)

Nobody is expecting to reach top DPS with simple builds, but at least be able to reach minimum threshold for participation.

For me, complex rotations results in DPS loss. I'm not using any addons to keep track of timers. My uptime get's worse with complexity. I'm wasting resources with more complex rotations, by casting skill from the wrong bar and general fumble.

So I'm stuck with 2 builds I play mostly pve dungeons. On target dummy I have A magplar that can just about reach 30k on a single bar, and a werewolf stamina build where I'm doing around 35k at the moment, without any BiS gear, just easily accessible stuff.

ATomiX96 · October 2018

the game was dumbed down so much over the last 2 years, therefore a clear no from my side.

ATomiX96 · October 2018

Rungar wrote: »

"good players" often have really fast connection speeds

personally, there is nothing I prefer more than playing on 700 ping with my 56k modem