Equalising bad and good players.

Ozazz

YEAH LETS COMPENSATE BAD PLAYERS BECAUSE THAT MAKES FOR A BETTER/ HEALTHIER VIDEO GAME!!!!!

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Ultimately, there are three types of players in this game, but there is a bit of a spectrum between the last two. I will explain.

1. The first type of player is bad either by choice or due to not being able to press buttons satisfactorily. These are the ones you see bashing AC on the forums, spamming bow light attacks in the corner on a high elf, etc. They stink for one reason or another. Things like werewolf, Overload back in the day, etc, can be a reasonable band aid solution. I have no problem with them as long as they arent leading DPS races (which they arent currently).

2. The second type of player is one that has a reasonable understanding of the game, has researched or developed a competent build, and has practiced their rotation. These are the people clearing most if not all vet content, but they arent setting WR scores. They are often in BIS or close to BIS gear, and their ability to weave and AC is competent. They either do static rotations, or a somewhat simplified dynamic rotation. Type 2 is not as prevalent as type 1 overall, but type two makes up the bulk of the end game community.

3. Type three is the pure min.maxer that surrounds themselves with the same. They run meta gear, meta group comps, and use dynamic rotations. Their goal is to push score in whatever content they are doing. They are by far the smallest group, but they are often the most visible on youtube and the like. 2 and 3 can blend a bit depending on how competent a player is with a dynamic rotation as it is more of a sliding scale.


You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded. The gap between 2 and 3, however, has widened significantly in the past year or so. This is largely due to the emergence of dynamic rotations, as it is the highest skill barrier in the game.

If your goal is to close the gap between 1 and 3, you will be left with a pile of garbage that nobody wants to play. Bad players will always be bad. If your goal is to close the gap between 2 and 3, well that IMO is reasonable as long is your goal is to not completely eliminate it. Again, time, skill and effort should be rewarded.

As the biggest culprit between the two is the rise of the dynamic rotation, the obvious way to shrink the gap it to reduce the benefits of such a rotation. The most obvious way to do that is to homogenize skill duration among various types of skills. If all single target DOTS were 10 seconds, and all player buffs/debuffs were say 20 seconds, a purely dynamic rotation would not be as beneficial.

I am certainly not suggesting broad sweeping changes across the board, but it is something I think they should consider in future content updates when trying to control the gap, which is frankly getting a little out of control.

El_Borracho

Ignoring for a moment that there is no shortage of DPS players available for trials and dungeons, I don't think I'm alone in saying I don't want ESO turned into a button masher where everyone can get the best gear, do the hardest content, and be able to slay everyone in PVP at will. At the risk of sounding elitist, its okay to be better than other players because you put the time and effort into learning how to play. I'm certainly not the best DPS out there, but am confident that I can competently run most veteran content without being a super werewolf. As for the stuff I'm not ready for, well, that's why you play the game.

One of the appealing parts of this game is learning to play it. Its got a steep learning curve for brand new players. Once you figure out the basics, it has a second level of learning how to operate in a group dungeons/trial setting (i.e. bar swapping, weaving, maximizing damage/healing). Then it has another level of getting really good at that so you can run the harder veteran content, or, be effective in PVP. Why would you want to take that away to reward some casual player?

Finally, having better DPS by making werewolves easier or more effective still doesn't fix the problem of "bad players" not knowing mechanics, running away from healers, or fake tanking. Funny part about this thread is that there is another thread on this site bemoaning the effectiveness of Dawnbreaker against werewolf builds. Now we definitely have to nerf that so we can allow the bad players to feel good about themselves.

JinMori

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ultimately, there are three types of players in this game, but there is a bit of a spectrum between the last two. I will explain.

1. The first type of player is bad either by choice or due to not being able to press buttons satisfactorily. These are the ones you see bashing AC on the forums, spamming bow light attacks in the corner on a high elf, etc. They stink for one reason or another. Things like werewolf, Overload back in the day, etc, can be a reasonable band aid solution. I have no problem with them as long as they arent leading DPS races (which they arent currently).

2. The second type of player is one that has a reasonable understanding of the game, has researched or developed a competent build, and has practiced their rotation. These are the people clearing most if not all vet content, but they arent setting WR scores. They are often in BIS or close to BIS gear, and their ability to weave and AC is competent. They either do static rotations, or a somewhat simplified dynamic rotation. Type 2 is not as prevalent as type 1 overall, but type two makes up the bulk of the end game community.

3. Type three is the pure min.maxer that surrounds themselves with the same. They run meta gear, meta group comps, and use dynamic rotations. Their goal is to push score in whatever content they are doing. They are by far the smallest group, but they are often the most visible on youtube and the like. 2 and 3 can blend a bit depending on how competent a player is with a dynamic rotation as it is more of a sliding scale.


You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded. The gap between 2 and 3, however, has widened significantly in the past year or so. This is largely due to the emergence of dynamic rotations, as it is the highest skill barrier in the game.

If your goal is to close the gap between 1 and 3, you will be left with a pile of garbage that nobody wants to play. Bad players will always be bad. If your goal is to close the gap between 2 and 3, well that IMO is reasonable as long is your goal is to not completely eliminate it. Again, time, skill and effort should be rewarded.

As the biggest culprit between the two is the rise of the dynamic rotation, the obvious way to shrink the gap it to reduce the benefits of such a rotation. The most obvious way to do that is to homogenize skill duration among various types of skills. If all single target DOTS were 10 seconds, and all player buffs/debuffs were say 20 seconds, a purely dynamic rotation would not be as beneficial.

I am certainly not suggesting broad sweeping changes across the board, but it is something I think they should consider in future content updates when trying to control the gap, which is frankly getting a little out of control.

Pretty much.

But i'm gonna add something, with effort a type 1 player can become a type 3 player, but only with effort, if you ask the gap to be closed without any effort on your part, you will just destroy the game, and any semblance of mechanics there are, because everything will be balanced by the lowest common denominator, basically use 1 skill till your resource is drained than light attack or heavy attack repeat, this is not something that you want to see in the game i assure you.

DanteYoda

Some days my bar wont even swap in a high ping environment and light attack weaving is a no go, try doing both with 400 ping.. the game wont even notice your attacks between skill presses, hell sometimes it doesn't even notice skill presses..

RavenSworn

You can always start simple.

5 skills on each bar. Choose one weapon to be spam bar and put two spam skills. Then put 3 buffs to that bar.

Switch over and put 2 'dots'. Then put in the same 3 buffs.

You start with your 'backbar', buff up and lay down those dots. Don't even have to weave. Just buff buff buff, dots dots. Switch weapon, then you have only two buttons to weave. So it's 1 - LA - 2 - LA... Etc. Then you rinse and repeat.

It's even easier on a pet sorc, since you will at least have two pets out, the matriarch and the imp. Since those already acts as a pseudo dot and don't really need to press anything, you can include the conjured ward which protects your pet as a buff. These are just examples. While it may seem counter intuitive, the muscle memory you gain from the weaving of the two spam skills will gain you a bit of insight on how to add more skills to weave together. Or maybe you can have different buffs in your frontbar.

Don't be afraid to experiment with different gear either. Knowing what you can do with your char is far more essential than copying a build with bis gear but are just unable to rotate.

Ragnarock41

How to equalize good and bad players in one single step:


1. You can't.

jcm2606

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

How to equalize good and bad players in one single step:


1. You can't.

Maybe add an extra step.

2. Stop trying to.

Ragnarock41

jcm2606 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

How to equalize good and bad players in one single step:


1. You can't.

Maybe add an extra step.

2. Stop trying to.

A smart developer will introduce mechanics to help bad players improve instead of literally dumbing down the entire experience,

in other words ;

good games are usually easy to learn but hard to master.

Rungar

before you do that you have to admit a few things. At least on pc.

"good players" often use combat notifications to let them know when to dodge, block etc.
"good players" often use macro programs like the razr mice to help automate light attack weaving and burst.
"good players" often have really fast connection speeds

so the obvious solution isn't to make the game easier its to remove the requirement for automation such that the game can be balanced on whats reasonable without the programs and technology.

so they could give everyone combat notifications which i think is not that good or they can acknowledge this and make the telegraphs much easier to spot and of course get rid of light attack weaving and replace light attacks with functional abilities that are still free attacks but serve utility for all roles and classes rather than dps automation.

if you want to bring up the floor you have to start by leveling the playfield. I'm not saying all good players use utilize these things but they are out there and should be accounted for.

leepalmer95

tunepunk wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Some good ideas in general, but I have a question..... Why at all would you want to equalize bad and good players? Why should someone, who plays the game for a short time, doesnt play well and does not have much experience, be able to get so close to someone who played the game for several years and practiced a very long time to get the experience and skill he has now?
(Btw. I dont play much PvE and cant even get over 10k single target DPS.....)

Because bad players want to have fun too.

Exactly. Lot of people want to participate in things but never get the chance unless they practice, farm BiS gear.

It never happened to me but some are getting kicked from groups because they can't even pull their own weight.. Easy "spam" builds shouldn't be anywhere near meta, but should at least be viable enough to be able to participate. I wouldn't mind doing vet dungeons and normal trials with a whole group of pew pew-bow light attackers, and skill spammers, if they at least knew the mechanics, know when to step out of stupid, and did a fair ammount of dps.

I've seen people struggle to hit 20k on a skelly. Sure they might not get everything right. Bet when they feel ready, and have the time to practice and start to compete they could go for meta builds and practice complex rotations, or not.... if it's not their cup of tea, but they should at least be able to participate.

I'm sorry but if you want to do end game stuff they get up to end game level like everyone else too.

This whole concept of buffing bad players because they're bad is a stupid concept.

If you don't want to put in the effort then you shouldn't get the reward, thats true for pretty much everything.

Stigant

Go to a boxing gym and tell your new coach that you have no clue how to throw a punch and you also don't like to move your feet faster than walking speed but you would like to stand a chance against their gym champ next week in a ring.

That's the impression the OP makes at me.

Sarannah

I'm actually glad I stumbled upon this thread, as a recently returned player. I have played many mmo's over my lifetime, some even as hardcore raider.

Since I returned to TESO there have been a few obstacles I ran into. Weapon swapping and using two skillbars has been one of them. Another is being unable to get headpieces from veteran content(and raidgear) as I do not want to do that content and be a burden to players in there. I feel I should learn, gear and understand the game better before going to that level of gameplay. Running normal dungeons seems to be great and easy now.

About ability bar swapping: At the moment I am already quite geared, and using 1 ability bar is going great. But when weapon swapping comes in, there is just too much to think about: Buffs, debuffs, DoT timers, ability cooldowns, cast times, monster/player movements, counter-skills, damage avoidance, did the swap work...while also keeping an eye on health, mana and stamina resources. It just becomes too much. Add in playing multiple characters all with different skillsets, and it becomes even more of a hassle. Not to mention, I've noticed that the players that do master weapon swapping on 1 character, often do not master it on multiple.
The solution I'd like to propose is to add an option to the game to show both ability bars and number the skills 1 to 0 for 10 total skills. And to let the character automatically swap weapons when you use a skill from the other ability bar, but every time you swap weapons there should be a small delay(even if it is the exact same weapon), to compensate not doing it manually(no delay when using skills from the same ability bar). This would make keeping an eye on all skills easier while making weapon swapping more accessible to everyone.

About veteran only headpiece drops: When looking up builds and gear sets for builds, I usually stumble upon this hurdle as these are for me unable to acquire. The last few community guides posted by ZOS also mainly include this type of gear. When trying to find out how to get this gear, I found these are only accessible through veteran dungeons. Which was a massive turn-off for me. I also read these drops used to be available with a ~20% chance from normal dungeon bosses. I do not know why this changed, but alas it did. (Yes, I know about the golden vendor... but waiting a year or more for something is just not realistic.) Right now this pushes low-geared and unexperienced players into veteran content before they are ready for it, exposing pro players to 'bad players' and exposing these unexperienced players to toxic comments from how some pro's react.
Now I can see two solutions to this issue: Make these headpieces drop from normal dungeon bosses with a % chance, and/or let these masks also drop from undaunted chests.

Making high level content more accessible while not pushing players into it before they are ready means shorter queue-times for everyone, less bad players in high content and probably even a healthier game population. Yes, the pro players will always be the pro players doing more damage. But a difference in dps from pro to casual, ranging from 10k-70k with the same gear should not be possible. The changes I propose here do not affect the pro players except for shorter queue-times, but it would lower the treshhold for new players, pro players with alternate characters and players that just cannot get a feel for weapon swapping. It would also show a player's willingness to farm their gear sets and learn their class(food/drink, poisons, potions, etc) before venturing into too high content. Only then can a player be called 'bad' if they do not work for it, not right now when the game pushes players into content they are not ready/geared for.

Remember, this is a game and not everyone wants to play it hardcore. Some play for this awfull thing called "fun".... like me

PS: When searching for builds, gear and solutions on these issues, these two obstacles seem to be the two most common ones amongst players who play(ed) TESO as non-pro's. Some even leaving as they cannot nail the weapon swapping thing. Or them just getting annoyed for getting kicked from veteran dungeons, which they only ran for the headpieces.

Berenhir

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm actually glad I stumbled upon this thread, as a recently returned player. I have played many mmo's over my lifetime, some even as hardcore raider.

Since I returned to TESO there have been a few obstacles I ran into. Weapon swapping and using two skillbars has been one of them. Another is being unable to get headpieces from veteran content(and raidgear) as I do not want to do that content and be a burden to players in there. I feel I should learn, gear and understand the game better before going to that level of gameplay. Running normal dungeons seems to be great and easy now.

About ability bar swapping: At the moment I am already quite geared, and using 1 ability bar is going great. But when weapon swapping comes in, there is just too much to think about: Buffs, debuffs, DoT timers, ability cooldowns, cast times, monster/player movements, counter-skills, damage avoidance, did the swap work...while also keeping an eye on health, mana and stamina resources. It just becomes too much. Add in playing multiple characters all with different skillsets, and it becomes even more of a hassle. Not to mention, I've noticed that the players that do master weapon swapping on 1 character, often do not master it on multiple.
The solution I'd like to propose is to add an option to the game to show both ability bars and number the skills 1 to 0 for 10 total skills. And to let the character automatically swap weapons when you use a skill from the other ability bar, but every time you swap weapons there should be a small delay(even if it is the exact same weapon), to compensate not doing it manually(no delay when using skills from the same ability bar). This would make keeping an eye on all skills easier while making weapon swapping more accessible to everyone.

About veteran only headpiece drops: When looking up builds and gear sets for builds, I usually stumble upon this hurdle as these are for me unable to acquire. The last few community guides posted by ZOS also mainly include this type of gear. When trying to find out how to get this gear, I found these are only accessible through veteran dungeons. Which was a massive turn-off for me. I also read these drops used to be available with a ~20% chance from normal dungeon bosses. I do not know why this changed, but alas it did. (Yes, I know about the golden vendor... but waiting a year or more for something is just not realistic.) Right now this pushes low-geared and unexperienced players into veteran content before they are ready for it, exposing pro players to 'bad players' and exposing these unexperienced players to toxic comments from how some pro's react.
Now I can see two solutions to this issue: Make these headpieces drop from normal dungeon bosses with a % chance, and/or let these masks also drop from undaunted chests.

Making high level content more accessible while not pushing players into it before they are ready means shorter queue-times for everyone, less bad players in high content and probably even a healthier game population. Yes, the pro players will always be the pro players doing more damage. But a difference in dps from pro to casual, ranging from 10k-70k with the same gear should not be possible. The changes I propose here do not affect the pro players except for shorter queue-times, but it would lower the treshhold for new players, pro players with alternate characters and players that just cannot get a feel for weapon swapping. It would also show a player's willingness to farm their gear sets and learn their class(food/drink, poisons, potions, etc) before venturing into too high content. Only then can a player be called 'bad' if they do not work for it, not right now when the game pushes players into content they are not ready/geared for.

Remember, this is a game and not everyone wants to play it hardcore. Some play for this awfull thing called "fun".... like me

PS: When searching for builds, gear and solutions on these issues, these two obstacles seem to be the two most common ones amongst players who play(ed) TESO as non-pro's. Some even leaving as they cannot nail the weapon swapping thing. Or them just getting annoyed for getting kicked from veteran dungeons, which they only ran for the headpieces.

When you have problems with swapping your weapons, you don't need monster sets or go to veteran dungeons.

You can start light attacking with the left mouse button and occasionally use skills at the beginning and over time, all this will become fluid.

Set your UI to always show your ability bar, so you know on which bar you are right now.

Bind weapon swap to an accessible key like Q and don't use standard keybinds.

Once you learned how to operate a video game, you can start doing more difficult content.

hakan

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm actually glad I stumbled upon this thread, as a recently returned player. I have played many mmo's over my lifetime, some even as hardcore raider.

Since I returned to TESO there have been a few obstacles I ran into. Weapon swapping and using two skillbars has been one of them. Another is being unable to get headpieces from veteran content(and raidgear) as I do not want to do that content and be a burden to players in there. I feel I should learn, gear and understand the game better before going to that level of gameplay. Running normal dungeons seems to be great and easy now.

About ability bar swapping: At the moment I am already quite geared, and using 1 ability bar is going great. But when weapon swapping comes in, there is just too much to think about: Buffs, debuffs, DoT timers, ability cooldowns, cast times, monster/player movements, counter-skills, damage avoidance, did the swap work...while also keeping an eye on health, mana and stamina resources. It just becomes too much. Add in playing multiple characters all with different skillsets, and it becomes even more of a hassle. Not to mention, I've noticed that the players that do master weapon swapping on 1 character, often do not master it on multiple.
The solution I'd like to propose is to add an option to the game to show both ability bars and number the skills 1 to 0 for 10 total skills. And to let the character automatically swap weapons when you use a skill from the other ability bar, but every time you swap weapons there should be a small delay(even if it is the exact same weapon), to compensate not doing it manually(no delay when using skills from the same ability bar). This would make keeping an eye on all skills easier while making weapon swapping more accessible to everyone.

About veteran only headpiece drops: When looking up builds and gear sets for builds, I usually stumble upon this hurdle as these are for me unable to acquire. The last few community guides posted by ZOS also mainly include this type of gear. When trying to find out how to get this gear, I found these are only accessible through veteran dungeons. Which was a massive turn-off for me. I also read these drops used to be available with a ~20% chance from normal dungeon bosses. I do not know why this changed, but alas it did. (Yes, I know about the golden vendor... but waiting a year or more for something is just not realistic.) Right now this pushes low-geared and unexperienced players into veteran content before they are ready for it, exposing pro players to 'bad players' and exposing these unexperienced players to toxic comments from how some pro's react.
Now I can see two solutions to this issue: Make these headpieces drop from normal dungeon bosses with a % chance, and/or let these masks also drop from undaunted chests.

Making high level content more accessible while not pushing players into it before they are ready means shorter queue-times for everyone, less bad players in high content and probably even a healthier game population. Yes, the pro players will always be the pro players doing more damage. But a difference in dps from pro to casual, ranging from 10k-70k with the same gear should not be possible. The changes I propose here do not affect the pro players except for shorter queue-times, but it would lower the treshhold for new players, pro players with alternate characters and players that just cannot get a feel for weapon swapping. It would also show a player's willingness to farm their gear sets and learn their class(food/drink, poisons, potions, etc) before venturing into too high content. Only then can a player be called 'bad' if they do not work for it, not right now when the game pushes players into content they are not ready/geared for.

Remember, this is a game and not everyone wants to play it hardcore. Some play for this awfull thing called "fun".... like me

PS: When searching for builds, gear and solutions on these issues, these two obstacles seem to be the two most common ones amongst players who play(ed) TESO as non-pro's. Some even leaving as they cannot nail the weapon swapping thing. Or them just getting annoyed for getting kicked from veteran dungeons, which they only ran for the headpieces.

hard doesnt mean unfun. if you cant do that vet content which is no near hard, then you dont need that item anyway. so no problem.

JinMori

Berenhir wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm actually glad I stumbled upon this thread, as a recently returned player. I have played many mmo's over my lifetime, some even as hardcore raider.

Since I returned to TESO there have been a few obstacles I ran into. Weapon swapping and using two skillbars has been one of them. Another is being unable to get headpieces from veteran content(and raidgear) as I do not want to do that content and be a burden to players in there. I feel I should learn, gear and understand the game better before going to that level of gameplay. Running normal dungeons seems to be great and easy now.

About ability bar swapping: At the moment I am already quite geared, and using 1 ability bar is going great. But when weapon swapping comes in, there is just too much to think about: Buffs, debuffs, DoT timers, ability cooldowns, cast times, monster/player movements, counter-skills, damage avoidance, did the swap work...while also keeping an eye on health, mana and stamina resources. It just becomes too much. Add in playing multiple characters all with different skillsets, and it becomes even more of a hassle. Not to mention, I've noticed that the players that do master weapon swapping on 1 character, often do not master it on multiple.
The solution I'd like to propose is to add an option to the game to show both ability bars and number the skills 1 to 0 for 10 total skills. And to let the character automatically swap weapons when you use a skill from the other ability bar, but every time you swap weapons there should be a small delay(even if it is the exact same weapon), to compensate not doing it manually(no delay when using skills from the same ability bar). This would make keeping an eye on all skills easier while making weapon swapping more accessible to everyone.

About veteran only headpiece drops: When looking up builds and gear sets for builds, I usually stumble upon this hurdle as these are for me unable to acquire. The last few community guides posted by ZOS also mainly include this type of gear. When trying to find out how to get this gear, I found these are only accessible through veteran dungeons. Which was a massive turn-off for me. I also read these drops used to be available with a ~20% chance from normal dungeon bosses. I do not know why this changed, but alas it did. (Yes, I know about the golden vendor... but waiting a year or more for something is just not realistic.) Right now this pushes low-geared and unexperienced players into veteran content before they are ready for it, exposing pro players to 'bad players' and exposing these unexperienced players to toxic comments from how some pro's react.
Now I can see two solutions to this issue: Make these headpieces drop from normal dungeon bosses with a % chance, and/or let these masks also drop from undaunted chests.

Making high level content more accessible while not pushing players into it before they are ready means shorter queue-times for everyone, less bad players in high content and probably even a healthier game population. Yes, the pro players will always be the pro players doing more damage. But a difference in dps from pro to casual, ranging from 10k-70k with the same gear should not be possible. The changes I propose here do not affect the pro players except for shorter queue-times, but it would lower the treshhold for new players, pro players with alternate characters and players that just cannot get a feel for weapon swapping. It would also show a player's willingness to farm their gear sets and learn their class(food/drink, poisons, potions, etc) before venturing into too high content. Only then can a player be called 'bad' if they do not work for it, not right now when the game pushes players into content they are not ready/geared for.

Remember, this is a game and not everyone wants to play it hardcore. Some play for this awfull thing called "fun".... like me

PS: When searching for builds, gear and solutions on these issues, these two obstacles seem to be the two most common ones amongst players who play(ed) TESO as non-pro's. Some even leaving as they cannot nail the weapon swapping thing. Or them just getting annoyed for getting kicked from veteran dungeons, which they only ran for the headpieces.

When you have problems with swapping your weapons, you don't need monster sets or go to veteran dungeons.

You can start light attacking with the left mouse button and occasionally use skills at the beginning and over time, all this will become fluid.

Set your UI to always show your ability bar, so you know on which bar you are right now.

Bind weapon swap to an accessible key like Q and don't use standard keybinds.

Once you learned how to operate a video game, you can start doing more difficult content.

I keybind barswap to middle mouse button.

It's amazing how many times i read about people having trouble with barwswap, just change the keybind if you are having trouble with it, ever crossed your mind?

NBrookus

Sarannah wrote: »

Since I returned to TESO there have been a few obstacles I ran into. Weapon swapping and using two skillbars has been one of them. Another is being unable to get headpieces from veteran content(and raidgear) as I do not want to do that content and be a burden to players in there. I feel I should learn, gear and understand the game better before going to that level of gameplay. Running normal dungeons seems to be great and easy now.

If you can't weapon swap or deal with two skill bars, you are correct: you shouldn't be trying vet dungeons yet. A monster helm isn't going to help at that point.

Assuming you are on PC:
You need to make the keybindings in game work for you and the layout of your keyboard. I find the default weapon swap key placement really icky, personally; same for the synergy key. Even basic mice usually have a couple of extra buttons you can use (page forward/back by default) if your keyboarding hand is weaker/less coordinated than your mouse hand. It's all customizable so make it work for you.

Install a mod like Bandit's UI. It does everything and also cleans the kitchen sink but you can turn stuff off. Mostly what we are looking for here is the duration reminder. In this screen clip you can see the duration remaining on my back bar buffs.


Those two things should help you start getting the hang of keeping track of both skill bars. After that, spend some time with a target dummy, and/or join a noob friendly guild to get some personalized help and players at a similar level to start learning harder content together.

Sarannah

Berenhir wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

I'm actually glad I stumbled upon this thread, as a recently returned player. I have played many mmo's over my lifetime, some even as hardcore raider.

Since I returned to TESO there have been a few obstacles I ran into. Weapon swapping and using two skillbars has been one of them. Another is being unable to get headpieces from veteran content(and raidgear) as I do not want to do that content and be a burden to players in there. I feel I should learn, gear and understand the game better before going to that level of gameplay. Running normal dungeons seems to be great and easy now.

About ability bar swapping: At the moment I am already quite geared, and using 1 ability bar is going great. But when weapon swapping comes in, there is just too much to think about: Buffs, debuffs, DoT timers, ability cooldowns, cast times, monster/player movements, counter-skills, damage avoidance, did the swap work...while also keeping an eye on health, mana and stamina resources. It just becomes too much. Add in playing multiple characters all with different skillsets, and it becomes even more of a hassle. Not to mention, I've noticed that the players that do master weapon swapping on 1 character, often do not master it on multiple.
The solution I'd like to propose is to add an option to the game to show both ability bars and number the skills 1 to 0 for 10 total skills. And to let the character automatically swap weapons when you use a skill from the other ability bar, but every time you swap weapons there should be a small delay(even if it is the exact same weapon), to compensate not doing it manually(no delay when using skills from the same ability bar). This would make keeping an eye on all skills easier while making weapon swapping more accessible to everyone.

About veteran only headpiece drops: When looking up builds and gear sets for builds, I usually stumble upon this hurdle as these are for me unable to acquire. The last few community guides posted by ZOS also mainly include this type of gear. When trying to find out how to get this gear, I found these are only accessible through veteran dungeons. Which was a massive turn-off for me. I also read these drops used to be available with a ~20% chance from normal dungeon bosses. I do not know why this changed, but alas it did. (Yes, I know about the golden vendor... but waiting a year or more for something is just not realistic.) Right now this pushes low-geared and unexperienced players into veteran content before they are ready for it, exposing pro players to 'bad players' and exposing these unexperienced players to toxic comments from how some pro's react.
Now I can see two solutions to this issue: Make these headpieces drop from normal dungeon bosses with a % chance, and/or let these masks also drop from undaunted chests.

Making high level content more accessible while not pushing players into it before they are ready means shorter queue-times for everyone, less bad players in high content and probably even a healthier game population. Yes, the pro players will always be the pro players doing more damage. But a difference in dps from pro to casual, ranging from 10k-70k with the same gear should not be possible. The changes I propose here do not affect the pro players except for shorter queue-times, but it would lower the treshhold for new players, pro players with alternate characters and players that just cannot get a feel for weapon swapping. It would also show a player's willingness to farm their gear sets and learn their class(food/drink, poisons, potions, etc) before venturing into too high content. Only then can a player be called 'bad' if they do not work for it, not right now when the game pushes players into content they are not ready/geared for.

Remember, this is a game and not everyone wants to play it hardcore. Some play for this awfull thing called "fun".... like me

PS: When searching for builds, gear and solutions on these issues, these two obstacles seem to be the two most common ones amongst players who play(ed) TESO as non-pro's. Some even leaving as they cannot nail the weapon swapping thing. Or them just getting annoyed for getting kicked from veteran dungeons, which they only ran for the headpieces.

When you have problems with swapping your weapons, you don't need monster sets or go to veteran dungeons.

You can start light attacking with the left mouse button and occasionally use skills at the beginning and over time, all this will become fluid.

Set your UI to always show your ability bar, so you know on which bar you are right now.

Bind weapon swap to an accessible key like Q and don't use standard keybinds.

Once you learned how to operate a video game, you can start doing more difficult content.

Wow, this post feels quite insulting... but I'll just assume it wasn't meant that way.

As I posted, I have basically already mastered using one bar. As you suggested I have already always show skillbar as on. This however does not take away the problem that players need to memorize both bars to be able to use them effectively! Especially when swapping. Expecting players to memorize where they have what skill behind which button, next to all the other things in the game to keep track off, is unrealistic in my opinion. This is a game, you cannot push everyone into this hardcore mindset. Imagine having to do this for multiple alternate characters as well.

I will try how it works when setting weapon swap to something which feels more natural to me. However, weapon swapping is a main game mechanic and should work intuïtively without player interference. You can't expect new players to the game to automatically adjust everything to their liking. Especially if they do not yet know what that something is.
As some player in this thread has already pointed out, most of those 'good players' are using add-ons for everything in-game. Something you also cannot reasonably expect a new/fresh player to do. (a sticky thread in general discussion or the launcher stating the most used add-ons, and what they are for, could be usefull)

The problem with you saying if you have problems with weapon swapping, which only occurs in TESO btw, that these players shouldn't go veteran dungeons or go for monster sets is exactly the problem I meant to address with my solutions. TESO pushes players into high content as some items only drop there. This leaves pro players saying they always run into 'bad players', as called in this thread, while the 'bad players' end up with toxic comments thrown at them. This chases away both hardcore and casual players from the game.
Besides that, it is also very unrealistic to expect players to learn rotations which will change every time their gear changes. More realistic is to expect players(new, or new build) to follow a build guide, get all the suggested gear, and then start working on their rotations. Due to build advice and showcases, this is why many unexperienced players run veteran level content, they have to for their suggested build.

Your last sentence sounds very insulting and elite, and to me seems like you are saying: "You might like this game, but if you do not want to hardcore learn the character you are on, just quit and go to some other game." The reason for why hardly anyone responds to this thread besides those saying they should learn the game or gtfo, is because most players do not tolerate this toxic kind of behavior.

I do not understand why some pro players want to keep the treshhold, by which the game is accessible, so high. This can only result in losing players, instead of drawing them in. Pro players will always have the advantage, no matter what is added to close the gap. I am in no way asking for the game to be easier, but for some crutches, so non- pro's can atleast get closer to the pro's. Hence my suggestions. In turn, this would also help pro players due to more pleasant dungeon runs. And the more players that stay with the game, the shorter the queue's.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts. I do not mean any of it insulting, or mean in any way.
Thanks for your suggestions and reply

PS: You suggest Q for weapon swap, any suggestions for where to put potion usage then?

JinMori

@Sarannah

Your post is basically, i want to do better without putting effort, and when these "pro" players call you out on it, you shame them by calling them elitist, toxic etc.. which most of the time they aren't they are just criticism, you are the literal definition of a snowflake.

By the way, these pro players even gave you some suggestions, so the term biting the hand that feeds you kinda fits here, people gave you insight on some things, and your rebuttal is, you are elitist, you can't expect new players to learn how to do basic stuff, like pressing a button, this is basically your argument.

Wanna get results? WORK FOR IT. We do not want your everyone gets a medal game regardless of effort because the mechanics are just so easy, plain and boring.

If you struggle with bar swap, then honestly, you are just bad, there is no way around it, and so rather than improving, you would rather see everyone being brought to your level.

usmcjdking

The gap between group 2 and group 3 is gargantuan, almost as large as the gap between 1 and 2 wherein it should be much tighter IMO.

bewing1234

How about if we just make 1 ability that instantly 1 shots the target. And cost no resources. Or people can learn to be good with the system that is in place.

Sarannah

Didn't notice there were some more replies when I was writing my last post, only just now saw them... anyways, thanks for all the advice guys, I'll definately try it all. Nowhere in my previous replies did I bite the hand that was feeding hehe

I do still stand by all of my points made though: Making the game more accessible isn't a bad thing, and again, I'm not asking for the game to be easier! Which makes me wonder, why seem so many in this thread against some crutch-mechanics for some basic game features?(crutches which are nowhere near pro player levels) ... It might be really good for the game's population. Especially on the headpiece thing.

PS: There is no reason to call me bad, I might even be the best player you've ever seen... just because a certain mechanic doesn't click with a person is no reason to call them bad.

jcm2606

The thing is, working around two distinct bars is what makes ESO's combat system stand out amongst the myriad of other MMO's on the market. It is tougher to get used to for a first time player, but it helps make combat exceedingly deeper, pushing ESO's combat past the typical cooldown management of other MMO's.

Having to manage two distinct bars, combined with the limited amount of slots available on both bars, forces you to not only think about how you build your character (have to choose the right tools for the job), but also how you play your character (working out which abilities are important for your playstyle, and how you should perform your rotation/combo(s)).

A lot of people in many different areas of the game love this about ESO's combat system. They love how combat and gameplay is rich, deep and diverse, where player skill is rewarded more than being able to manage cooldowns of all of your abilities. Allowing newer players to skip this just negates the whole point of having the combat system be this way.

As I said, the whole idea of having all of your tools be on two different belts can be pretty daunting to newer players, especially in harder content, but it is just one of the many obstacles you have to face when learning something like an MMO. And the thing is, keep at it, and it'll eventually just "click". Learn it on one character, and the general idea will just fall into place across all of them.

Sure, each class and build do have their own quirks, and often have a different "flow" to your rotation/combo(s), but it's not like bar swapping works fundamentally different across different characters. Take it from somebody with 10 unique characters (magsorc, stamsorc, magDK, stamDK, magblade, stamblade, magplar, stamplar, mag warden, stam warden). Granted, I generally only play stamsorc (PVE, a bit of PVP) and stamDK (PVP), but I used to play magsorc, magblade and magplar in PVE, and the rest I've played up to level 50, and taken through vet dungeons.

Quickly on monster sets, as other people have said, if you haven't mastered bar swapping, then you really don't need them. They do help your DPS considerably, but bar swapping alone will help you far more than monster sets ever could.

shaielzafine

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

To equalize players, ZOS would have to get rid of weaving, removing one of the notable features of the game and in my opinion will be opposed by majority of players. Whole weaving thing is kinda makes Eso unique and adds a little of skill factor to the game.

ZOS has lowered the cieling and raised the floor many times, without adressing annimation cancelling, weaving and groupsupport.
Those things make the difference between good groups / players and "bad" players.

Keep in mind that the Endgame in this game revolvs arround these things since ESO is a Skillbased MMO, and not gear, or lvl based (Yes the make a difference in DPS, but you can have BIS gear if you dont know how to use it, you'll deal not as much dmg as someone with non BIS gear knowing how to play).
I wont even imagine what would happen to the playerbase if they change those things in any way. Just look whats happening atm with the shield change ideas from ZOS....more than 80% of ppl who joined the Polls said its a bad change.

For pve, yes. For PvP - the other end game - though, gear and level does matter. Gear for all of the PvP formats & level for the CP enabled campaings & in duels.

Jierdanit

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Some good ideas in general, but I have a question..... Why at all would you want to equalize bad and good players? Why should someone, who plays the game for a short time, doesnt play well and does not have much experience, be able to get so close to someone who played the game for several years and practiced a very long time to get the experience and skill he has now?
(Btw. I dont play much PvE and cant even get over 10k single target DPS.....)

Because bad players want to have fun too.

They can still have fun..... They should just not expect to get the same choices a good player has.

BretonMage

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded. The gap between 2 and 3, however, has widened significantly in the past year or so. This is largely due to the emergence of dynamic rotations, as it is the highest skill barrier in the game.

If your goal is to close the gap between 1 and 3, you will be left with a pile of garbage that nobody wants to play. Bad players will always be bad. If your goal is to close the gap between 2 and 3, well that IMO is reasonable as long is your goal is to not completely eliminate it. Again, time, skill and effort should be rewarded.

I agree with the points in your post. I do want to add that some bad players do want to become good, but it's not that easily apparent how you do that. ESO has a pretty steep learning curve, and you're given a few tips in-game, but otherwise you have very little direction. You can do research, but application of any knowledge gained isn't always effective either.

I don't think ZOS should artificially close the gap between group 1 and group 3, but it would be very helpful if they found a way to give group 1 more tools to work toward getting better.

Haashhtaag

Bad and good players should NEVER be equalized, EVER

Oreyn_Bearclaw

BretonMage wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

You will never close the gap between 1 and 3, and nor should you. Time, effort, and of course skill, should be rewarded. The gap between 2 and 3, however, has widened significantly in the past year or so. This is largely due to the emergence of dynamic rotations, as it is the highest skill barrier in the game.

If your goal is to close the gap between 1 and 3, you will be left with a pile of garbage that nobody wants to play. Bad players will always be bad. If your goal is to close the gap between 2 and 3, well that IMO is reasonable as long is your goal is to not completely eliminate it. Again, time, skill and effort should be rewarded.

I agree with the points in your post. I do want to add that some bad players do want to become good, but it's not that easily apparent how you do that. ESO has a pretty steep learning curve, and you're given a few tips in-game, but otherwise you have very little direction. You can do research, but application of any knowledge gained isn't always effective either.

I don't think ZOS should artificially close the gap between group 1 and group 3, but it would be very helpful if they found a way to give group 1 more tools to work toward getting better.

I dont think anyone would argue against the concept of better in game tutorials to raise the floor a bit. That said, we do have this thing called the internet. It is really not that hard to spend some time on youtube to come up with a competent build and rotation for your class.

I think unfortunately, most of group 1 as I described are "playing the way they want" and all the tutorials in the world wont really change much. If you really want to raise the skill gap, they could start by making overland content at least remotely challenging. If it required more than 2 buttons to complete the main quest, people might give their builds a little more thought I suppose...

adeptusminor

For people having an issue not knowing which bar they are on, you can bind keys to directly go to bar 1 and bar 2 instead of the default "swap bar" key binding.

idk

So OP wants to reduce the skill level for playing this game because Zos cheesed WW.

I have disagreed with how Zos has tried to lower the ceiling and raise the floor of DPS as it really just drove a wedge and pushed them further apart. However, what is being suggested here is even worse.