Bleed Adjustment for PVP

SergeantPink · October 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Correction : Bleeds are used by heavy armor builds with high weapon damage.

Almost every Stamina pvper now uses rending slashes. I doubt their reasoning is “we need something to combat heavy tanks in pvp.”

It’s currently the meta dot because, it’s strong, and dual weild is outperforming 2nd. It’s honestly smart a smart choice when considering which damage abilities to choose.

I personally don’t know which direction this ability should go. Maybe masters weapons need toned down just slightly. I would also support a cost increase to the skill

Minno · October 2018

crit resists and major+minor protection directly counter bleeds.

I would have say to slot impreg as a counter to bleeds and most heavy hitting burst damage but some salty nightblades got their way and had impreg nerfed lol.

Ariades_swe · October 2018

Finedaible wrote: »

Nobody cared/complained about bleeds before this PTS even though nothing has changed with them. A Blackrose weapon which had a small design flaw allowing for scaling bleeds was introduced (and has now been nerfed to deal poison) and suddenly everyone is begging for bleed nerfs left and right. Ironically people have forgotten that Sload's Semblance still exists but "OMG, bleeds! Plz Nerf!..." like wtf?

Where have you been?
People been complaining about bleeds way before pts.
I don't think they need a nerf though.

Ragnaroek93 · October 2018

I made a thread about Bleeds one year ago in the Morrowind closed beta section. It only took one year until everyone realised how broken they are LUL

Zeromaz · October 2018

usmguy1234 wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Well if they're heavy armour i'd consider them a tank anyway.

Could just change bleeds to do bonus dmg vs armour types then? I'm sure zos can do some calculations and change the bonus dmg to heavy to be about the same as it is currently.@Buzo

Or even just give the bleeds flat out % pen

@leepalmer95
Your points are non constructive.
Make bleeds punish one armor type more than others in an explicit way is the worst of „design“ choices.

Yet bleeds already do exactly that. Ignoring all resistances actually punishes HA builds the most since that's what they chose to build for. Obviously bleeds are meant to be the counter to that. It just so happens that ZOS failed terribly in the big picture design choices and gave HA better healing received and HP recovery, so they don't have as much trouble dealig with them as they should.

I'm going to repeat myself here by saying that in every other MMO I played the counter to tank was as effective against every other class/role as against tanks themselves, and that's the way it should be ... if someone builds/chooses class to withstand high amounts of damage, why should someone else be able to deal with it better? If there is a counter to a tank in form of damage bypassing his armor, it should work as well against everyone else, with maybe one exception being healers, having an ability to deal with it better.

When you bleed, you bleed untill stopped, it does not really matter what are you wearing.

It might be useful to make bleeds more effective the higher the armor rating of the opponent you are facing. Just an idea.

Good idea

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I made a thread about Bleeds one year ago in the Morrowind closed beta section. It only took one year until everyone realised how broken they are LUL

@Ragnaroek93

Everyone lol? You should read what people come up with to defend bleeds. Or propose adjustments that simulate what maces do already because the only thing they know anymore are axes.

Zeromaz · October 2018

I love me some axes

usmcjdking · October 2018

Bleeds are heavy armor counters that absolutely obliterate medium and light armor.

Ragnaroek93 · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I made a thread about Bleeds one year ago in the Morrowind closed beta section. It only took one year until everyone realised how broken they are LUL

@Ragnaroek93

Everyone lol? You should read what people come up with to defend bleeds. Or propose adjustments that simulate what maces do already because the only thing they know anymore are axes.

Well... at least you get upvotes on a nerf bleed thread these days

usmcjdking · October 2018

One of the biggest issues with bleeds isn't necessarily the bleed - but all the garbage that DOTS can proc. There is no reason why DOT effects proc weapon enchants, the weapon bleed, poisons, armor pieces, monster sets (unless specifically stated like Valkyn).

jbjondeaueb17_ESO · October 2018

Minno wrote: »

crit resists and major+minor protection directly counter bleeds.

I would have say to slot impreg as a counter to bleeds and most heavy hitting burst damage but some salty nightblades got their way and had impreg nerfed lol.

The main issue is that the one with the least amount of access to Major Protection will be the one who need it the most, aka magicka players.

WreckfulAbandon · October 2018

There are just a lot of DoTs in the game that are possible to stack crazy pressure with. Nerfing bleeds won't really help anything; it will just make some overperforming builds stick out more while others like stamsorc and stamplar get left in the dust.

Ragnarock41 · October 2018

SergeantPink wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Correction : Bleeds are used by heavy armor builds with high weapon damage.

Almost every Stamina pvper now uses rending slashes. I doubt their reasoning is “we need something to combat heavy tanks in pvp.”

It’s currently the meta dot because, it’s strong, and dual weild is outperforming 2nd. It’s honestly smart a smart choice when considering which damage abilities to choose.

I personally don’t know which direction this ability should go. Maybe masters weapons need toned down just slightly. I would also support a cost increase to the skill

Even without master weapons you will see that bleeds win when it comes to cost versus effectiveness and raw damage per tick compared to other dots(nothing comes close to how strong bleeds hit, you won't see an 11k poison dot on your death recap but you will see plenty of bleeds.). Axes proc a bleed as strong as venomous claws for the cost of..... free, plus no need to waste bar slots on top of that... Blood craze comes with a heal over time, rending slashes comes with a good snare. Compared to what it brings to the table and how friggen much damage it does, nothing else can compare, sets, other abilities, nothing.

Minno · October 2018

jbjondeaueb17_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

crit resists and major+minor protection directly counter bleeds.

I would have say to slot impreg as a counter to bleeds and most heavy hitting burst damage but some salty nightblades got their way and had impreg nerfed lol.

The main issue is that the one with the least amount of access to Major Protection will be the one who need it the most, aka magicka players.

Best source would be pirate Skelton.
The other would be Templar empowering sweeps come next patch.

Then there area couple of sets. There is one that gives major protection and heroism after breaking free. You might use that one, especially against bleedplars that almost always stun via javelin first and the heroism would allow you to resto ultimate in between the cooldown. Just a thought, it might not be perfect.

bpmachete · October 2018

Bleeds should not crit

Ragnarock41 · October 2018

bpmachete wrote: »

Bleeds should not crit

I think this is wrobel in disguise.

Tonturri · October 2018

Perhaps it's time to change the axe bleeds to not go through armor, then give maces a little love. Maces are clearly the designated 'more effective the more armor your opponent has', but they're outshined by axe due to the bleed.

Remove the goes-through-armor from bleeds, maybe buff maces' pen a little bit and give them another passive effect to give additional damage vs blocking targets or something.

Ragnarock41 · October 2018

Tonturri wrote: »

Perhaps it's time to change the axe bleeds to not go through armor, then give maces a little love. Maces are clearly the designated 'more effective the more armor your opponent has', but they're outshined by axe due to the bleed.

Remove the goes-through-armor from bleeds, maybe buff maces' pen a little bit and give them another passive effect to give additional damage vs blocking targets or something.

I agree, maces should be the go-to pick for countering heavy armor. Maybe buff both 1h and 2h maces, and change how bleeds work, then buff their base numbers to compensate a little bit.

mojomood · October 2018

Make bleeds deal damage in proportion to the current amount of resistance in PVP and the non-debuffed values in PVE. Still works great against tanky targets but there will be better dots for light armor. This also means that those tanks that wear Pariah + another defensive set to top out over the cap would take even more damage...which is what bleeds are supposed to do.

Also, change all oblivion to a percentage of max health. That way bleeds counter high resistance and oblivion counters high health tanks.

Mayrael · October 2018

"Bleeds are fine, we need them to kill heavy armored tanks" said bleeds (ab)users. Fine then, can magicka have magicka based bleeds to? As they also need to kill those HA tanks... and MA users... and LA users?

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

Guys, don‘t forget to disguise your axes as swords, because „axes are ugly“

Wuuffyy · October 2018

They literally nerfed master dw for you. Tf do the pugs want now? Let’s just remove mag classes from the game.

Feanor · October 2018

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

They literally nerfed master dw for you. Tf do the pugs want now? Let’s just remove mag classes from the game.

I hardly call a 150 base damage reduction a meaningful adjustment.

Wuuffyy · October 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

They literally nerfed master dw for you. Tf do the pugs want now? Let’s just remove mag classes from the game.

I hardly call a 150 base damage reduction a meaningful adjustment.

Then just get rid of it and btw axes do damage over 6 seconds now (same dmg as before rather than 3)

Wuuffyy · October 2018

I absolutely CANNOT kill ppl effectively considering how gimped I am as a werewolf if I lose ANY of my toolkit. Your *** hurts other ***. I’m not saying L2p but it’s one of the less cancerous things out there.

NuarBlack · October 2018

usmcjdking wrote: »

One of the biggest issues with bleeds isn't necessarily the bleed - but all the garbage that DOTS can proc. There is no reason why DOT effects proc weapon enchants, the weapon bleed, poisons, armor pieces, monster sets (unless specifically stated like Valkyn).

Hehe this used to be a bigger problem but still might be part of the issue. Back when BGs first launched I ran a stam DK of all things specifically exploiting the fact twin slashes and quick blade procced things like this. While the leaderboards were chalk full of everything else I managed to be the loan StamDK in the top 100 cause I could effectively get Way of Fire, Red Mountain, Oblivion Enchant, poison enchant, and Valkyn to proc in such quick succession. A little ashamed of it now but still probably not as bad as all the stamplers and stamblades running viper back then. But all that *** has been nerfed since so probably not the problem.

As much as everyone hates to say it, the only thing making bleeds OP is the Master DW weapons. Maybe the Axe bleed proc, maybe. Outside that bleeds probably are not the reason why you are dying.

Wuuffyy · October 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

They literally nerfed master dw for you. Tf do the pugs want now? Let’s just remove mag classes from the game.

I hardly call a 150 base damage reduction a meaningful adjustment.

Then just get rid of it and btw axes do damage over 6 seconds now (same dmg as before rather than 3)

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

@Wolf_Watching
Are you wearing a wolf costume irl when you play your werewolf?

Wuuffyy · October 2018

Tonturri wrote: »

Perhaps it's time to change the axe bleeds to not go through armor, then give maces a little love. Maces are clearly the designated 'more effective the more armor your opponent has', but they're outshined by axe due to the bleed.

Remove the goes-through-armor from bleeds, maybe buff maces' pen a little bit and give them another passive effect to give additional damage vs blocking targets or something.

Just an outright nerf to WW. Can’t use wep passives.

Wuuffyy · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

@Wolf_Watching
Are you wearing a wolf costume irl when you play your werewolf?

No. I’m just defending what I like to play like sorcs defend what they play.