All this pvp whining is really too old in the tooth. There is a simple way - split pvp and pve. Make two separate lines of each skills - one for pve another for pvp, make two copies of Cyro amd modify pvp part to the hell. Just DO NOT TOUCH the pve.
-vovus
leepalmer95 wrote: »Honestly the crit shield nerf is enough to make me not play mag sorc again anway.
Shields are already so weak in open world and for some reason zos made them weaker. So it's going to be great dealing with all the stamplar/ wardens and nb's that'll take off my shield 1 with attack.
Zos stated they don't want people to increase dmg and defence at the same time? Don't want glass cannons?
So what do they want? Everyone to run around in heavy armour builds and be unkillable? Or the heavy builds who have more dmg than my medium builds because of sets like ravager/ 7th/ fury etc...?
The game is designed to stack more defence with offence? Doesn't stacking crit + stats increase your dmg but also increase your healing? The more dmg i do the more healing i get.
Yeah seems like zos are clueless about their own game. I'll just stick to stamina from now on then it's not like i play is 80% of the time this patch anyway because it's just stronger.
Narvuntien wrote: »A straight nerf is always preferable... combat is fast and fluid.... I'd like to see cast times removed from more abilities.
Narvuntien wrote: »A straight nerf is always preferable... combat is fast and fluid.... I'd like to see cast times removed from more abilities.
Yeah, remove cast times for dark flare!!!! It already travels at the speed of a falling feather...
The problem with this is that 1) damage is the single most important thing in this game by a very wide margin and 2) with the way sets work in this game (individual items have minimal stats, sets are king, and 5 piece bonuses are sometimes more powerful than the 2-4 bonuses combined), it's really hard to put just a little bit of defense in a build without losing a lot of damage.kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »That 40% cap is pathetic and damn near useless if you are doing endgame PvE.
@Tasear You want data? Here's your data:
This is the kind of damage the mobs are doing in the new Blackrose Prison on vet. This isn't damage from bosses. These aren't special abilities or mechanics. These are just the standard attacks by standard non-boss enemies. Three hits, each doing over 8K, in the span of 1.1s:
Ask Wrobel what the hell he expects 40%-of-health shields will do when endgame PvE--vBRP, vCR HM, and other vet DLC content--has this much incoming damage.
Add more health one tank set would greatly add to your build. You can’t wear two DPS sets and a DPS Monster set and then complain that you are a glass canon.
The_Camper wrote: »That 40% cap is pathetic and damn near useless if you are doing endgame PvE.
@Tasear You want data? Here's your data:
This is the kind of damage the mobs are doing in the new Blackrose Prison on vet. This isn't damage from bosses. These aren't special abilities or mechanics. These are just the standard attacks by standard non-boss enemies. Three hits, each doing over 8K, in the span of 1.1s:
Ask Wrobel what the hell he expects 40%-of-health shields will do when endgame PvE--vBRP, vCR HM, and other vet DLC content--has this much incoming damage.
It's almost as if the hardest mode of what supposed to be the hardest 4 man content is supposed to be run with a healer. with HoTs and AOE heals running over the group. wow #UNPLAYABLE
I understand, there is always work to be done. The original intent of the changes was to lessen mirgration and make the healer role needed. So now we have to see how things are with things like major maim, major protection, minor protection, and support like meritorious service offers. Then see if we can find a happy balance that allows us to enjoy the game.
@Tasear How do healers heal through 1-shots? Because vBRP is brimming with those. You know how to make healers feel useful? Designing content that has strong unpurgeable DoTs and healing checks. They did that with vCR. And they did that with vBRP, which is why despite all the unhealable 1-shots (or in this case, virtually unhealable 3-shot), a dedicated healer is required. As I alluded to in my other post, the tanks are subject to unavoidable, unpureable DoTs and defiles that pretty much requires the need for a dedicated healer (because the heals need to be strong enough to be effective despite the defile) to babysit them.
Shields are not what killed the need for healers. It's content design where damage avoidance is the only viable game in town.
The_Camper wrote: »It's almost as if the hardest mode of what supposed to be the hardest 4 man content is supposed to be run with a healer. with HoTs and AOE heals running over the group. wow #UNPLAYABLE
LOL. So nice of you to make assumptions. We do run with a dedicated healer--vBRP is not doable without a dedicated healer because if you think the DDs have it bad, the tanks have it worse--unpurgeable DoTs, nearly constant defiles, and attacks whose base damage are over 100K.
And you did notice that the damage came in over the course of 1.1s, right? Burst heals are reactive, but no healer can notice that health drop and react when the window is that short. HoTs are proactive, but you can't HoT through that level of damage. Shields can be used proactively and reactively. The shield cast time killed the usefulness of reactive shielding. The 40% cap kills the usefulness of proactive shielding, and proactive shielding is what would've worked in situations like this.kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Add more health one tank set would greatly add to your build. You can’t wear two DPS sets and a DPS Monster set and then complain that you are a glass canon.
So you think DDs should wear Plague Doctor? Funny thing is, the arena also punishes low DPS. It's almost as if they made content that demands both high survivability and the kind of damage output that you could only get from a glass cannon. I sure hope you aren't shocked by this, since this has been the hallmark of ZOS's content design for the past year or so.
So bascially you can't be satisfied in any way but staying the old way. Pretty narrow minded.
That 40% cap is pathetic and damn near useless if you are doing endgame PvE.
@Tasear You want data? Here's your data:
This is the kind of damage the mobs are doing in the new Blackrose Prison on vet. This isn't damage from bosses. These aren't special abilities or mechanics. These are just the standard attacks by standard non-boss enemies. Three hits, each doing over 8K, in the span of 1.1s:
Ask Wrobel what the hell he expects 40%-of-health shields will do when endgame PvE--vBRP, vCR HM, and other vet DLC content--has this much incoming damage.
The_Camper wrote: »It's almost as if the hardest mode of what supposed to be the hardest 4 man content is supposed to be run with a healer. with HoTs and AOE heals running over the group. wow #UNPLAYABLE
LOL. So nice of you to make assumptions. We do run with a dedicated healer--vBRP is not doable without a dedicated healer because if you think the DDs have it bad, the tanks have it worse--unpurgeable DoTs, nearly constant defiles, and attacks whose base damage are over 100K.
And you did notice that the damage came in over the course of 1.1s, right? Burst heals are reactive, but no healer can notice that health drop and react when the window is that short. HoTs are proactive, but you can't HoT through that level of damage. Shields can be used proactively and reactively. The shield cast time killed the usefulness of reactive shielding. The 40% cap kills the usefulness of proactive shielding, and proactive shielding is what would've worked in situations like this.kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Add more health one tank set would greatly add to your build. You can’t wear two DPS sets and a DPS Monster set and then complain that you are a glass canon.
So you think DDs should wear Plague Doctor? Funny thing is, the arena also punishes low DPS. It's almost as if they made content that demands both high survivability and the kind of damage output that you could only get from a glass cannon. I sure hope you aren't shocked by this, since this has been the hallmark of ZOS's content design for the past year or so.
So bascially you can't be satisfied in any way but staying the old way. Pretty narrow minded.
Is the 40% cap for individual shields on a char or is it a cap for all shields combined on a char?
Because the latter would make healingward absolutely useless.
So I wanted to see how the new shields would compare to heals in a tank set+dmg set scenario.
Sets used (5/1/1 Heavy):
For magicka: 5 Impregnable+5 Spinner+2 Shadowrend
For stamina: 5 Fury+5 Legion+2 Troll King
Buffs:
Major Sorcery/Brutality, Infused weapon damage enchant
No CPs.
Health pool at 27 722 with Battle Spirit (shield cap=11 088) for magicka, 26 091 for stamina.
Honor The Dead 4475-6712(crit)
Hardened Ward: 5338
Harness Magicka: 4667
Soothing Spores: 4973-7459(crit)
Rally: up to 7031-10 547(crit)
How much magic was that with? Trying to do some similar tests myself, but my ISP is playing up :-(
27 375 - with Argonian, Apprentice mundus & tri-stat everything (including Triune jewelry). Buffed spell damage stood at 3451.
Empty bars, so no Expert Mage or inner Light/Bound Aegis to buff stats.
So I wanted to see how the new shields would compare to heals in a tank set+dmg set scenario.
Sets used (5/1/1 Heavy):
For magicka: 5 Impregnable+5 Spinner+2 Shadowrend
For stamina: 5 Fury+5 Legion+2 Troll King
Buffs:
Major Sorcery/Brutality, Infused weapon damage enchant
No CPs.
Health pool at 27 722 with Battle Spirit (shield cap=11 088) for magicka, 26 091 for stamina.
Honor The Dead 4475-6712(crit)
Hardened Ward: 5338
Harness Magicka: 4667
Soothing Spores: 4973-7459(crit)
Rally: up to 7031-10 547(crit)
How much magic was that with? Trying to do some similar tests myself, but my ISP is playing up :-(
27 375 - with Argonian, Apprentice mundus & tri-stat everything (including Triune jewelry). Buffed spell damage stood at 3451.
Empty bars, so no Expert Mage or inner Light/Bound Aegis to buff stats.
Hm, ok - so with 27.3k mag you got 5338. Was that in cyro?
I just did a little test(in PVE) - Argonian in heavy -
15.2k mag = 5751 hardened.
19k mag = 7406 hardened
22.1k mag = 8369 hardened.
(not boosted with CP)
All halved in cyro.
For comparison, the same character with its usual setup (19k mag, 27k stam) has a vigour tooltip of 10482. That is WITHOUT any of my usual (and significant) weapon-damage buffs - ie. major brut, continuous attack, clever alch, berserker glyph.
I guess hardened isn't worth running on my hybrid then!!! Perhaps if it also scaled from spell-damage (since fully-buffed its the same as my weapon-dmg)..?
Also worth mentioning that vigour is cheaper, the heal is permenant (ie doesn't disappear after 6 seconds like a ward does) - and can crit.. (but can be debuffed too)..
Conclusion? Imho Still will need around 40k+ mag for hardened to be useful - but also need 25k health AND resists AND impen. Will still also need a certain amount of stam for dodge/break-free too. Gonna be hard to make hardened worthwhile in a build. Not impossible, imho - but hard, and at quite a big damage cost.
Simple algebra dictates that if you want to keep an equation balanced, what ever factor you remove needs to be replaced by some equivalent in another part of the equation. This is the issue that ZoS has when it comes to balancing. They take away without proper compensation, and everything just results in a flat nerf instead of actual balance.
@Biro123
I actually think we're being given a chance here.
Granted it ENTIRELY depends on what the wording means. If it really comes down to players not being able to have more than 40% of their health as a damage shield on them at one time then numerous things need to be changed in this game with damage shields. If that's the case I'll post that at a later time. But something tells me that's not the case. Otherwise Barrier ultimate becomes 100% useless (it's not popular but you can't just negate an ultimate and not mention it).
If that's not the scenario.
Then resistances and crit resist may give damage shields some heft. It's not hard to build for 25k resistances and 1.8k crit resist on a light armor build (especially with Max magicka not being needed as much), and doing so will make a 10k damage shield be worth more than it is now, and we get the compromise of having to build into our defenses for a strong defense.
Monday when PTS servers go live will be a very important day.
You kind of side-stepped @Biro123 's point. Everything you said is correct. However, sorc sustain is so bad that it requries 2 sustain sets in PvP (for solo compared to most other classes that cna run 2 offensive sets with similar sustain) and the damage is barely enough. So now that "barely enough" damage and 2 sustain set requirement has to make a compromise. Sustain goes from adequate to lacking and "barely enough" simply goes to not enough.
There needs to be compensation for such a significant nerf to a class that was not overperforming. I had a loadout ready that would probably never have died in PvP if the cast time went through. That's only the overlying issue. The actual issue is a result of what is necessary to combat a nerf.
Simple algebra dictates that if you want to keep an equation balanced, what ever factor you remove needs to be replaced by some equivalent in another part of the equation. This is the issue that ZoS has when it comes to balancing. They take away without proper compensation, and everything just results in a flat nerf instead of actual balance.
That is why the nerf happened. Even with the changes with the cast time and shields being crittable, you supposedly had "an unkillable loadout" already planned.I had a loadout ready that would probably never have died in PvP if the cast time went through.
Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Barrier just took a massive nerf.
Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Barrier just took a massive nerf.
Did anybody read the class rep meeting notes??
Barrier did not get a 40% cap. No shield got any new cap yet and the only ones planned are the sorcerer and light armor shields, which still can be stacked to 80% of max health total after the change, if what was said goes through.
They aren't capping "all shield values you can possibly put on your character at 40%" and are only "capping one shield to 40% single buffed" and ONLY on Conjured Ward and Annulment and their morphs.
Healing Ward is not affected.
Barrier is not affected.
Sun Shield is not affected.
Magma Armor is not affected.
Bone Shield is not affected.
...etc....
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »That 40% cap is pathetic and damn near useless if you are doing endgame PvE.
@Tasear You want data? Here's your data:
This is the kind of damage the mobs are doing in the new Blackrose Prison on vet. This isn't damage from bosses. These aren't special abilities or mechanics. These are just the standard attacks by standard non-boss enemies. Three hits, each doing over 8K, in the span of 1.1s:
Ask Wrobel what the hell he expects 40%-of-health shields will do when endgame PvE--vBRP, vCR HM, and other vet DLC content--has this much incoming damage.
Add more health one tank set would greatly add to your build. You can’t wear two DPS sets and a DPS Monster set and then complain that you are a glass canon.
Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Barrier just took a massive nerf.
Did anybody read the class rep meeting notes??
Barrier did not get a 40% cap. No shield got any new cap yet and the only ones planned are the sorcerer and light armor shields, which still can be stacked to 80% of max health total after the change, if what was said goes through.
They aren't capping "all shield values you can possibly put on your character at 40%" and are only "capping one shield to 40% single buffed" and ONLY on Conjured Ward and Annulment and their morphs.
Healing Ward is not affected.
Barrier is not affected.
Sun Shield is not affected.
Magma Armor is not affected.
Bone Shield is not affected.
...etc....
. In one of the upcoming PTS patches, Annulment and Conjured Ward will now be instant-cast abilities that scale off your maximum Magicka (as they do on live currently), but cap the total shield amount to 40% of your character’s maximum health.
Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Barrier just took a massive nerf.
Did anybody read the class rep meeting notes??
Barrier did not get a 40% cap. No shield got any new cap yet and the only ones planned are the sorcerer and light armor shields, which still can be stacked to 80% of max health total after the change, if what was said goes through.
They aren't capping "all shield values you can possibly put on your character at 40%" and are only "capping one shield to 40% single buffed" and ONLY on Conjured Ward and Annulment and their morphs.
Healing Ward is not affected.
Barrier is not affected.
Sun Shield is not affected.
Magma Armor is not affected.
Bone Shield is not affected.
...etc....
Source?