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Shield Cast Time Removed

  • Biro123
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    Derra wrote: »
    Is the 40% cap for individual shields on a char or is it a cap for all shields combined on a char?
    Because the latter would make healingward absolutely useless.

    The actual wording is:
    but cap the total shield amount to 40% of your character’s maximum health.

    So sounds like it is a total cap.

    My initial thoughts are that the hardened morph and bastion cp would stop being used, stacking is gone, and aiding your shields(to handle more dmg from crits) with smaller-shields like from glyphs becomes useless.

    My next thoughts are that I've had builds with a single hardened ward *almost* as big as my health.. Yeah, it was a ridiculous 58k mag, 16k health, 10k stam build with no recov - but for that build, with all things considered (excuse my maths) its essentially a 60% nerf on max size, and then another 40% nerf due to taking crit damage(assuming 80% modifier critting half the time). I mean that's freaking huge!
    So, this effectively forces a soft-cap on max magica, and now makes health (as well as stam and mag) essential, regardless of whether you want to keep using shields or not. Better start farming those Hajeiko's! So now we're talking about sacrificing mag for health to find a 'sweet spot' where a single ward = 40% of health.. - which STILL means a loss of the currently mediocre damage.. Grr.!

    Also I've always thought that shields(in pvp) had a tipping point of usefulness - where if you can't put out more 'shielding per second' than your average attacker does 'dps' - then they become useless. And that point is already close on live. With this change, its well past 'tipped' - unless you also build in a ton of resists and impen.. Which again is gonna hit the now weak damage even more. This tipping point is going to depend more on how much you build into defences - which means that if you try to go for dps (ie light armour, and a dps and sustain set) - the shields will be beyond useless, making that option impossible.

    Still feels like (perhaps even moreso) that sorcs are forced into heavy+1.5(or 2) sustain sets, or light + brass + sustain set - even if they want to do damage.

    Really shakes up the builds - but whichever way you cut it - its still a huge sorc nerf.

    Now what I want to know is how it affects shield size on pets.. is it 40% of their health? your health? or does that limit not apply to them?
    And also I'm curious how close to that cap my stam-based heavy-armour hybrid sorc can get. Gonna go and try it now..!

    Really glad they dropped the cast-time idea though.

    Btw, I'm also assuming that 40%cap is after battle spirit... I'd hate for it to be capped at 40% and then for battle -spririt to then go and half it after that!
    Edited by Biro123 on September 27, 2018 8:47AM
    Minalan owes me a beer.

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  • Carbonised
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    code65536 wrote: »
    The_Camper wrote: »
    It's almost as if the hardest mode of what supposed to be the hardest 4 man content is supposed to be run with a healer. with HoTs and AOE heals running over the group. wow #UNPLAYABLE

    LOL. So nice of you to make assumptions. We do run with a dedicated healer--vBRP is not doable without a dedicated healer because if you think the DDs have it bad, the tanks have it worse--unpurgeable DoTs, nearly constant defiles, and attacks whose base damage are over 100K.

    And you did notice that the damage came in over the course of 1.1s, right? Burst heals are reactive, but no healer can notice that health drop and react when the window is that short. HoTs are proactive, but you can't HoT through that level of damage. Shields can be used proactively and reactively. The shield cast time killed the usefulness of reactive shielding. The 40% cap kills the usefulness of proactive shielding, and proactive shielding is what would've worked in situations like this.

    Add more health one tank set would greatly add to your build. You can’t wear two DPS sets and a DPS Monster set and then complain that you are a glass canon.

    So you think DDs should wear Plague Doctor? :lol: Funny thing is, the arena also punishes low DPS. It's almost as if they made content that demands both high survivability and the kind of damage output that you could only get from a glass cannon. I sure hope you aren't shocked by this, since this has been the hallmark of ZOS's content design for the past year or so.

    I agree with your points, and I agree that the 40 % shield strength seems excessively small. However, I also think this highlights that the main problem lies with the content, where, as you say, you get punished for going for survivability over damage, but also get punished for relying on damage over survivability. We could also mention all the one-shot mechanics and unforgiving and punishing mechanics that make all the new Vet content work like you have described, and in many ways are why people cut out the healer for a 3rd DD. Judging from Blackrose Prison, this trend just seems to continue.
    code65536 wrote: »
    Shields are not what killed the need for healers. It's content design where damage avoidance is the only viable game in town.

    Yep, this was pretty much the point I was making, before I saw that you already made it in the following post =p

    Edited by Carbonised on September 27, 2018 8:52AM
  • DDuke
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    So I wanted to see how the new shields would compare to heals in a tank set+dmg set scenario.

    Sets used (5/1/1 Heavy):
    For magicka: 5 Impregnable+5 Spinner+2 Shadowrend
    For stamina: 5 Fury+5 Legion+2 Troll King

    Buffs:
    Major Sorcery/Brutality, Infused weapon damage enchant

    No CPs.

    Health pool at 27 722 with Battle Spirit (shield cap=11 088) for magicka, 26 091 for stamina.


    Honor The Dead 4475-6712(crit)
    Hardened Ward: 5338
    Harness Magicka: 4667
    Soothing Spores: 4973-7459(crit)
    Rally: up to 7031-10 547(crit)
  • Biro123
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    DDuke wrote: »
    So I wanted to see how the new shields would compare to heals in a tank set+dmg set scenario.

    Sets used (5/1/1 Heavy):
    For magicka: 5 Impregnable+5 Spinner+2 Shadowrend
    For stamina: 5 Fury+5 Legion+2 Troll King

    Buffs:
    Major Sorcery/Brutality, Infused weapon damage enchant

    No CPs.

    Health pool at 27 722 with Battle Spirit (shield cap=11 088) for magicka, 26 091 for stamina.


    Honor The Dead 4475-6712(crit)
    Hardened Ward: 5338
    Harness Magicka: 4667
    Soothing Spores: 4973-7459(crit)
    Rally: up to 7031-10 547(crit)

    How much magic was that with? Trying to do some similar tests myself, but my ISP is playing up :-(
    Minalan owes me a beer.

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  • DDuke
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    Biro123 wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    So I wanted to see how the new shields would compare to heals in a tank set+dmg set scenario.

    Sets used (5/1/1 Heavy):
    For magicka: 5 Impregnable+5 Spinner+2 Shadowrend
    For stamina: 5 Fury+5 Legion+2 Troll King

    Buffs:
    Major Sorcery/Brutality, Infused weapon damage enchant

    No CPs.

    Health pool at 27 722 with Battle Spirit (shield cap=11 088) for magicka, 26 091 for stamina.


    Honor The Dead 4475-6712(crit)
    Hardened Ward: 5338
    Harness Magicka: 4667
    Soothing Spores: 4973-7459(crit)
    Rally: up to 7031-10 547(crit)

    How much magic was that with? Trying to do some similar tests myself, but my ISP is playing up :-(

    27 375 - with Argonian, Apprentice mundus & tri-stat everything (including Triune jewelry). Buffed spell damage stood at 3451.

    Empty bars, so no Expert Mage or inner Light/Bound Aegis to buff stats.
  • ArvenAldmeri
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    Daus wrote: »
    The goal is to make the survivability of magicka comparable to stamina. Sucks doesn't it?

    Except magicka sorc in particular dont have a good reliable one bar slot heal like stams. And less armor rating and no deadly cloak damage reduction. Yes it sucks to do less damage not have stam to block for long and take more damage than your stam mates.
    Magicka sorcerer from start until the end. Always. Through the good times and the bad, even now when its probably saddest PvE dps it has ever been.
    Even as an owner of one radiant apex mounts I am against radiant apex mounts and anything thats not obtainable by direct purchase.
  • Lord_Eomer
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    UrQuan wrote: »
    As per @ZOS_GinaBruno 's comment starting the class reps meeting notes here (you're at home, stop posting stuff for work):
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437982/class-reps-meeting-notes-september-25
    The 1 second cast time will be removed from anullment and conjured ward in a future PTS build. In place, they're getting a different nerf.

    While I'm sure there'll be a lot of discussion around whether the particular nerf they're getting is appropriate or not, I want to thank the team at ZOS for listening to the reasons why a cast time was specifically a bad way to nerf those particular skills, and taking that feedback.

    So thanks @ZOS_RobGarrett and anyone else who was involved in going through that feedback, listening to it, and recognizing that it wasn't just people whining.

    Shield Strentgh will be maximum 40% of health so with 20k health in PVE u will have shield of 8k and in pvp with 5k extra health it will 5k
  • Aurielle
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    The goal is to make the survivability of magicka comparable to stamina. Sucks doesn't it?

    Sure it sucks. We would all love a Magicka forward momentum, vigor, speed pots, fury, 7th, ravage etc. [removed baiting comment]

    Seriously. A magicka version of Ravager/Fury would go a long way towards making heavy armour more viable for magicka builds. I’ve been trying heavy Innate Axiom and Clever Alchemist (which is the closest we can sort of get to Ravager) with a few different damage sets and it’s pitiful — even at 40k magicka. Sorcs depend so much on light armour for penetration, crit, and sustain. How is it fair that my stamina Warden hits like a truck in heavy with zero sustain problems, while my mag Sorc in heavy barely tickles the average player?

    Anyway, I’m glad the cast times have been removed. The nerfs are still going to necessitate some serious changes, however.

    Edited by ZOS_JesC on September 27, 2018 2:39PM
  • Carbonised
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    Aurielle wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    The goal is to make the survivability of magicka comparable to stamina. Sucks doesn't it?

    Sure it sucks. We would all love a Magicka forward momentum, vigor, speed pots, fury, 7th, ravage etc. [removed baiting comment]

    Seriously. A magicka version of Ravager/Fury would go a long way towards making heavy armour more viable for magicka builds. I’ve been trying heavy Innate Axiom and Clever Alchemist (which is the closest we can sort of get to Ravager) with a few different damage sets and it’s pitiful — even at 40k magicka. Sorcs depend so much on light armour for penetration, crit, and sustain. How is it fair that my stamina Warden hits like a truck in heavy with zero sustain problems, while my mag Sorc in heavy barely tickles the average player?

    Anyway, I’m glad the cast times have been removed. The nerfs are still going to necessitate some serious changes, however.

    Heavy armor stam is a real problem. Putting heavy armor on a mag spec is gimping yourself to the point where most competent players can outheal/outshield you easily. Simply put, stam in heavy armor in pvp has too much damage and too much survivability. Proc sets are also largely to blame, where you can put on 3 proc sets in heavy armor and still do good damage, since your proc sets aren't gimped by going heavy.
    Edited by ZOS_JesC on September 27, 2018 2:39PM
  • Biro123
    Biro123
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Biro123 wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    So I wanted to see how the new shields would compare to heals in a tank set+dmg set scenario.

    Sets used (5/1/1 Heavy):
    For magicka: 5 Impregnable+5 Spinner+2 Shadowrend
    For stamina: 5 Fury+5 Legion+2 Troll King

    Buffs:
    Major Sorcery/Brutality, Infused weapon damage enchant

    No CPs.

    Health pool at 27 722 with Battle Spirit (shield cap=11 088) for magicka, 26 091 for stamina.


    Honor The Dead 4475-6712(crit)
    Hardened Ward: 5338
    Harness Magicka: 4667
    Soothing Spores: 4973-7459(crit)
    Rally: up to 7031-10 547(crit)

    How much magic was that with? Trying to do some similar tests myself, but my ISP is playing up :-(

    27 375 - with Argonian, Apprentice mundus & tri-stat everything (including Triune jewelry). Buffed spell damage stood at 3451.

    Empty bars, so no Expert Mage or inner Light/Bound Aegis to buff stats.

    Hm, ok - so with 27.3k mag you got 5338. Was that in cyro?

    I just did a little test(in PVE) - Argonian in heavy -
    15.2k mag = 5751 hardened.
    19k mag = 7406 hardened
    22.1k mag = 8369 hardened.
    (not boosted with CP)

    All halved in cyro.
    For comparison, the same character with its usual setup (19k mag, 27k stam) has a vigour tooltip of 10482. That is WITHOUT any of my usual (and significant) weapon-damage buffs - ie. major brut, continuous attack, clever alch, berserker glyph.

    I guess hardened isn't worth running on my hybrid then!!! Perhaps if it also scaled from spell-damage (since fully-buffed its the same as my weapon-dmg)..?
    Also worth mentioning that vigour is cheaper, the heal is permenant (ie doesn't disappear after 6 seconds like a ward does) - and can crit.. (but can be debuffed too)..

    Conclusion? Imho Still will need around 40k+ mag for hardened to be useful - but also need 25k health AND resists AND impen. Will still also need a certain amount of stam for dodge/break-free too. Gonna be hard to make hardened worthwhile in a build. Not impossible, imho - but hard, and at quite a big damage cost.
    Edited by Biro123 on September 27, 2018 10:50AM
    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
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  • code65536
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    Tasear wrote: »
    I passed this along so other class reps can see and we can discuss. I agree with you, but there's a lot of factors here. First it's still in testing, things can change. Now I get you one shots suck. But was it really a one shot? The picture doesn't tell the whole story. What was the tank doing? Could you avoid the damage? How much of that could of been reduced say with Lord Warden, vyskoa, minor protection, or say bone surge...that shield that gives you a shield worth 100% + of health ? I agree you content design is a issue but my question was your situation truly impossible?

    What happened was that the trash spawned and decided to attack me before the tank could aggro them all--you could taunt at most 1 enemy per second, after all. So, yes, that was a bit of bad luck. And I would also say that it's bad content design, and this screenshot was from my feedback to Finn's team about the damage from trash in vBRP being overtuned.

    As for other mitigation, Vykosa is single-target and short in duration. It's a niche set for mitigating specific boss mechanics (e.g., Channeled Swipes from the Warrior) but is not useful for general purpose mitigation and certainly not trash mob mitigation. Warden would be of little use in vBRP stage 5 because of roaming ghost hazards that force you to always be on your toes (think of the white ghosts in vMA stage 9, except much, much more of them) and because of high kill-priority totems that spawn in random locations at the edges of the room requiring that DDs quickly switch target to kill them.
    Edited by code65536 on September 27, 2018 1:05PM
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  • Itzmichi
    Itzmichi
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    code65536 wrote: »
    The_Camper wrote: »
    It's almost as if the hardest mode of what supposed to be the hardest 4 man content is supposed to be run with a healer. with HoTs and AOE heals running over the group. wow #UNPLAYABLE

    LOL. So nice of you to make assumptions. We do run with a dedicated healer--vBRP is not doable without a dedicated healer because if you think the DDs have it bad, the tanks have it worse--unpurgeable DoTs, nearly constant defiles, and attacks whose base damage are over 100K.

    And you did notice that the damage came in over the course of 1.1s, right? Burst heals are reactive, but no healer can notice that health drop and react when the window is that short. HoTs are proactive, but you can't HoT through that level of damage. Shields can be used proactively and reactively. The shield cast time killed the usefulness of reactive shielding. The 40% cap kills the usefulness of proactive shielding, and proactive shielding is what would've worked in situations like this.

    Add more health one tank set would greatly add to your build. You can’t wear two DPS sets and a DPS Monster set and then complain that you are a glass canon.

    So you think DDs should wear Plague Doctor? :lol: Funny thing is, the arena also punishes low DPS. It's almost as if they made content that demands both high survivability and the kind of damage output that you could only get from a glass cannon. I sure hope you aren't shocked by this, since this has been the hallmark of ZOS's content design for the past year or so.

    So bascially you can't be satisfied in any way but staying the old way. Pretty narrow minded.
    Here, have a chill pill 💊!
  • Jsmalls
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    @Biro123

    I actually think we're being given a chance here.

    Granted it ENTIRELY depends on what the wording means. If it really comes down to players not being able to have more than 40% of their health as a damage shield on them at one time then numerous things need to be changed in this game with damage shields. If that's the case I'll post that at a later time. But something tells me that's not the case. Otherwise Barrier ultimate becomes 100% useless (it's not popular but you can't just negate an ultimate and not mention it).

    If that's not the scenario.

    Then resistances and crit resist may give damage shields some heft. It's not hard to build for 25k resistances and 1.8k crit resist on a light armor build (especially with Max magicka not being needed as much), and doing so will make a 10k damage shield be worth more than it is now, and we get the compromise of having to build into our defenses for a strong defense.

    Monday when PTS servers go live will be a very important day.
    Edited by Jsmalls on September 27, 2018 1:32PM
  • katorga
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    So it caps at 40% of health, but still scales off magicka?

    The same nerf for every shield, so what happens to the >40% of health shields for DK leap and Boneshield synergies.

    Jeez, just make ALL shields scale off health. If sorc needs bigger or smaller shields relative to their average health pool for balance purposes, tweak the percentage. Sort of like the DK change from 10% to 9% of health.

    It would actually give Sorc's more build options than the single option they have today.

    I don't really care if ZOS "listened", the cast time idea never should have made it past the developer discussion stage, much less through internal pre-PTS play testing.

  • IAVITNI
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    Jsmalls wrote: »
    @Biro123

    I actually think we're being given a chance here.

    Granted it ENTIRELY depends on what the wording means. If it really comes down to players not being able to have more than 40% of their health as a damage shield on them at one time then numerous things need to be changed in this game with damage shields. If that's the case I'll post that at a later time. But something tells me that's not the case. Otherwise Barrier ultimate becomes 100% useless (it's not popular but you can't just negate an ultimate and not mention it).

    If that's not the scenario.

    Then resistances and crit resist may give damage shields some heft. It's not hard to build for 25k resistances and 1.8k crit resist on a light armor build (especially with Max magicka not being needed as much), and doing so will make a 10k damage shield be worth more than it is now, and we get the compromise of having to build into our defenses for a strong defense.

    Monday when PTS servers go live will be a very important day.

    You kind of side-stepped @Biro123 's point. Everything you said is correct. However, sorc sustain is so bad that it requries 2 sustain sets in PvP (for solo compared to most other classes that cna run 2 offensive sets with similar sustain) and the damage is barely enough. So now that "barely enough" damage and 2 sustain set requirement has to make a compromise. Sustain goes from adequate to lacking and "barely enough" simply goes to not enough.

    There needs to be compensation for such a significant nerf to a class that was not overperforming. I had a loadout ready that would probably never have died in PvP if the cast time went through. That's only the overlying issue. The actual issue is a result of what is necessary to combat a nerf.

    Simple algebra dictates that if you want to keep an equation balanced, what ever factor you remove needs to be replaced by some equivalent in another part of the equation. This is the issue that ZoS has when it comes to balancing. They take away without proper compensation, and everything just results in a flat nerf instead of actual balance.
  • Galarthor
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    Daus wrote: »
    The goal is to make the survivability of magicka comparable to stamina. Sucks doesn't it?

    They are talking about PvE.
    In PvP stamina survivability is already far superior. Wish they make survivability in pvp comparable.
    And when making it comparable, give magicka defensive tools that don't require abilites (e.g. magicka block, dodge roll, sprint).

    Nice try though!
  • Fiktius
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    Derra wrote: »
    Is the 40% cap for individual shields on a char or is it a cap for all shields combined on a char?
    Because the latter would make healingward absolutely useless.

    That's what I'm wondering too. I hope that the 40 % shield value is only for individual shields, which would still make using several shields viable.
    Also I'm truly happy to see that shields will be instant cast again. That cast time simply had no place in PvP.
    At this point we are going to a bit better direction and now a lot testing based of shields in PTS is required.
    I'm interested to see how resistances have impact on shields in PvP scenarios and perhaps that 40 % cap based on HP will be increased after several testings, if 40 % ends to be too low value after all. (Which it probably is.)
    Edited by Fiktius on September 27, 2018 2:47PM
  • Lughlongarm
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    Total Cap on shields based on Max HP, sounds like a good solution. From here it's just number adjustments. I think they should keep with the "battle spirit" rule. Make it scale up 100% Max HP in PVE and 50% in PVP. The numbers should be more or less in line with the current max capabilities of "hardened ward" on a 50k magicka Sorc.
    Edited by Lughlongarm on September 27, 2018 2:11PM
  • katorga
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    The goal is to make the survivability of magicka comparable to stamina. Sucks doesn't it?

    They are talking about PvE.
    In PvP stamina survivability is already far superior. Wish they make survivability in pvp comparable.
    And when making it comparable, give magicka defensive tools that don't require abilites (e.g. magicka block, dodge roll, sprint).

    Nice try though!

    I started my sorc as stam, way, way back, when I didn't know anything about the game. A great sword, pets, miss matched armor...total noob. I've swapped back and forth over the years. I basically only pvp with the toon when he is stam. Once vigor hit the game, no contest for pvp. .
  • caperon
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    What happens to barrier and leap shields?
  • Strider__Roshin
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    caperon wrote: »
    What happens to barrier and leap shields?

    Good question
  • Minno
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    Tasear wrote: »
    UrQuan wrote: »
    Oh, and of course thanks also to the class reps, especially @Tasear who I saw being very active in gathering feedback on the shield cast time issue, for making the effort to really make sure the devs understood where the community was coming from on this.

    I am happy everyone got their voices heard. :heart:

    Thanks reps for dealing with our crazy BS!

    You all get flak during the bad times, and now you should get a little praise here.
  • Dymence
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    Itsmichi wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    The_Camper wrote: »
    It's almost as if the hardest mode of what supposed to be the hardest 4 man content is supposed to be run with a healer. with HoTs and AOE heals running over the group. wow #UNPLAYABLE

    LOL. So nice of you to make assumptions. We do run with a dedicated healer--vBRP is not doable without a dedicated healer because if you think the DDs have it bad, the tanks have it worse--unpurgeable DoTs, nearly constant defiles, and attacks whose base damage are over 100K.

    And you did notice that the damage came in over the course of 1.1s, right? Burst heals are reactive, but no healer can notice that health drop and react when the window is that short. HoTs are proactive, but you can't HoT through that level of damage. Shields can be used proactively and reactively. The shield cast time killed the usefulness of reactive shielding. The 40% cap kills the usefulness of proactive shielding, and proactive shielding is what would've worked in situations like this.

    Add more health one tank set would greatly add to your build. You can’t wear two DPS sets and a DPS Monster set and then complain that you are a glass canon.

    So you think DDs should wear Plague Doctor? :lol: Funny thing is, the arena also punishes low DPS. It's almost as if they made content that demands both high survivability and the kind of damage output that you could only get from a glass cannon. I sure hope you aren't shocked by this, since this has been the hallmark of ZOS's content design for the past year or so.

    So bascially you can't be satisfied in any way but staying the old way. Pretty narrow minded.

    Isn't it nice to call people narrow minded when you have clearly no idea/experience about the type of content you're discussing?
  • Jsmalls
    Jsmalls
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    @IAVITNI

    Next patch seems like a lot of new sustain options will be available. You have magicka bone pirate, potential for 10% from empowering Ward, light armor recovery slight increase, reduced cost Poisons effectiveness, and a energy overload working seamlessly with our normal rotation (I'm assuming, I'm on Xbox and can't test it's fluidity). These all add a lot of sustain to our class.

    Touching on Empowering Ward. I mentioned this because it would be ridiculous to run hardened when you'll be above the cap at what? 35-40k magicka (I haven't ran the numbers yet) And I would say Zos should then change hardened Ward but you see we still have Crystal blast so my hopes for that aren't high. Result being empowered becomes the go to morph and hardened becomes the obselete pink unicorn high health high magicka tank build.
  • mongoLC
    mongoLC
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    Zos should still get rid of the dev who even thought a cast time would be a good idea. I'm sure the amount of people who unsubed over it was the real reason why they changed their minds. Devs almost cost zos a lot of money.
  • Biro123
    Biro123
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    Biro123 wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Biro123 wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    So I wanted to see how the new shields would compare to heals in a tank set+dmg set scenario.

    Sets used (5/1/1 Heavy):
    For magicka: 5 Impregnable+5 Spinner+2 Shadowrend
    For stamina: 5 Fury+5 Legion+2 Troll King

    Buffs:
    Major Sorcery/Brutality, Infused weapon damage enchant

    No CPs.

    Health pool at 27 722 with Battle Spirit (shield cap=11 088) for magicka, 26 091 for stamina.


    Honor The Dead 4475-6712(crit)
    Hardened Ward: 5338
    Harness Magicka: 4667
    Soothing Spores: 4973-7459(crit)
    Rally: up to 7031-10 547(crit)

    How much magic was that with? Trying to do some similar tests myself, but my ISP is playing up :-(

    27 375 - with Argonian, Apprentice mundus & tri-stat everything (including Triune jewelry). Buffed spell damage stood at 3451.

    Empty bars, so no Expert Mage or inner Light/Bound Aegis to buff stats.

    Hm, ok - so with 27.3k mag you got 5338. Was that in cyro?

    I just did a little test(in PVE) - Argonian in heavy -
    15.2k mag = 5751 hardened.
    19k mag = 7406 hardened
    22.1k mag = 8369 hardened.
    (not boosted with CP)

    All halved in cyro.
    For comparison, the same character with its usual setup (19k mag, 27k stam) has a vigour tooltip of 10482. That is WITHOUT any of my usual (and significant) weapon-damage buffs - ie. major brut, continuous attack, clever alch, berserker glyph.

    I guess hardened isn't worth running on my hybrid then!!! Perhaps if it also scaled from spell-damage (since fully-buffed its the same as my weapon-dmg)..?
    Also worth mentioning that vigour is cheaper, the heal is permenant (ie doesn't disappear after 6 seconds like a ward does) - and can crit.. (but can be debuffed too)..

    Conclusion? Imho Still will need around 40k+ mag for hardened to be useful - but also need 25k health AND resists AND impen. Will still also need a certain amount of stam for dodge/break-free too. Gonna be hard to make hardened worthwhile in a build. Not impossible, imho - but hard, and at quite a big damage cost.

    Silly me - all those figures for hardened ward are tooltip, so don't include the 30% bonus
    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
    Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
    Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
    Aidee - Magsorc - DC
    Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
    Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.
  • Stibbons
    Stibbons
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    Just removing shiedstacking would have been nice. Cancer magsorc 2 or 2 shields are insanely tanky in live. Yes i play pet sorc in pvp now and have about 50 000 magic + or -.
  • mb10
    mb10
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    20% of max health pvp shield is quite trash

  • vovus69
    vovus69
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    All this pvp whining is really too old in the tooth. There is a simple way - split pvp and pve. Make two separate lines of each skills - one for pve another for pvp, make two copies of Cyro amd modify pvp part to the hell. Just DO NOT TOUCH the pve.

    -vovus
    "If I'll need your opinion, I'll give one to you" - Rivenspire
  • IAVITNI
    IAVITNI
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    Jsmalls wrote: »
    @IAVITNI

    Next patch seems like a lot of new sustain options will be available. You have magicka bone pirate, potential for 10% from empowering Ward, light armor recovery slight increase, reduced cost Poisons effectiveness, and a energy overload working seamlessly with our normal rotation (I'm assuming, I'm on Xbox and can't test it's fluidity). These all add a lot of sustain to our class.

    Touching on Empowering Ward. I mentioned this because it would be ridiculous to run hardened when you'll be above the cap at what? 35-40k magicka (I haven't ran the numbers yet) And I would say Zos should then change hardened Ward but you see we still have Crystal blast so my hopes for that aren't high. Result being empowered becomes the go to morph and hardened becomes the obselete pink unicorn high health high magicka tank build.

    Outside overload, those are all general buffs. Nobody is saying sorc is going to be useless. But it is going to fall behind. general consensus was that sorc was at an OK spot. Not strong but not weak either. The class has had significant power taken away. Mitigation falls behind, and it is now necessary to pull resources from sustain and damage to compensate.

    To simplify, lets rate base Mitigation, Sustain and Damage out of 5 at 5/3/3 respectively, placing the class at a total of 11-with 5 being over-tuned, 4 being a perfectly balanced score, 3 being viable and 1 being unplayable relative to other classes.

    With these changes Mitigation drops down to a 2 (below viable) for a 2/3/3 rating. So now a point from Sustain or Damage needs to be reallocated to Mitigation so that it can remain at a viable level since a dead sorc has 0 sustain and 0 damage. However, now sustain or damage is not viable and sorcs go from an effective 11 rating to a 9 for no apparent reason.

    That's an 18% nerf to a class that was not over performing. If the class rating had gone from say, 11-10, then we could chalk that up to growing pains. However, the shield changes are half measured much like a lot of other changes.

    Look at DK posion cost reduction on DoT skills to help alleviate sustain issues. Meanwhile, battle roar still severely punishes the class for using ultimates properly and rewards mindless spamming.

    A nerf to whip to help "keep it in line" with skills that behave differently on classes that have completely different mechanics.

    Nerfing Mark, a hard counter to Cloak that was not even touched but leaving Shield Breaker as is, despite severely nerfing shields. Hard counters should not exist. Period. But ZoS does these half measured attempts at balancing.

    The mere fact that they though a cast-time was a valid option despite uproar from Templars in regards to Healing Ritual and the fact that sorcs have no other valid form of defense is a clear indicator that ZoS does not think these changes through. They get an idea and implement it without even considering the consequences. The fact that they have had to roll-back so many changes should be a clear indicator that their approach is wrong but they seem to fail more and more.

    Right now their only saving grace is the rep system. The fact that players provide feedback that is infinitely more logical than the devs behind the game is pitiful.

    That's the problem. Half-measured attempts at balance that create larger issues instead of changes that encroach on actual balance. Wolfhunter was a great patch since it was largely guided by reps at the end. Murkmire prior to rep feedback clearly indicates a sever lack of knowledge on part of the devs. IF they refuse to play the game, they should listen to people that do as a form of due diligence, not be forced into due to a forum full of toxicity.
    Edited by IAVITNI on September 27, 2018 5:53PM
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