newtinmpls wrote: »

I'm a "pet sorc" and I never used the "third bar" just found it really annoying.

Beardimus wrote: »

Sorc healers needed the 3rd var for utility. People saying something has no value need to give their context i.e. Where and how they play. If you have both pets, inner light and aegis up to male a proper strong pet build, you are limited on slots even as a DD. Add in utility for group support and boom.

However this thread is about single bar pets which i agree with. Maybe have a single bar goggle morph pet, and a double bar pet as now.

One damage / one healing. With healing ward heap gone id love to try a clannfear toggle as my panic heal. But just back bar him, goggle on till dead, if I'm on back bar and press i get a heal. Balance is I'm not using healing ward / restro for passives etc.

Scamp stays two bar as already good damage if we have to chose!

IAVITNI wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Long overdue, never should have had pets. Daedric Summoning should work like the rest of the Elder Scrolls franchise.


You summon (creature) from Oblivion for <dur> seconds on your position/target position.

@Tasear this is ultimately the best option. The primary reason on console that pets aren't used is due to lack of control. Turning the pets into timed summons would allow greater control of them without overpowering them. It would make the pet play more dynamic and less overbearing in duels.

Right now, pet sorc playstyle is pretty much just heavy attack and hope for the best, which isn't really the best gameplay.

From a PvP perspective, pets are technically worth the double-bar slot due to LoS potential/cheese. What holds them back is control of these pets. Including some form of active player requirement would make the worth the bar slots in PvP.

So to answer your question

Tasear wrote: »

What would make it worth two bar slots?

Give players greater control of these active skills by reducing the passive nature of their effects and making them, well, more active. Also increase the group utility of pets to compensate for loss of third bar. Below are examples to illustrate what I mean.

Unstable Familiar

• becomes a targetable AoE, and moves to the location of cast. If the pulses are already going, recasting the skill simply moves the familiar but does not reset the stun timer and does not cost magicka
• Group Utility: Applies Minor Breach for 8 seconds

Clanfear

• a single target skill that charges the target stunning them and slows all other enemies hit (only targeted enemy is stunned) on top of the heal and would deal minor damage, not a lot since the damage is secondary and more so because getting headbutt by a clanfear should at least tickle
• Group Utility: Applies Minor Life Steal to all enemies within a radius of impact. The Minor Lifesteal persists for 3 seconds after leaving the area.

Matriarch

• provide the same burst heal, but on cast it returns to the sorc. I don't recall the heal having a cast time, but if it does remove it. A defensive pet should not stray to far from what it's meant to defend.
• Group Utility: Additionally, Twilight grants Minor Expedition for 4 seconds after healing. This skill does not need too much utility since it is already group oriented. Anything too strong would overload this skill.

Tormentor

• could be a selfish/damage heal. Targeting an opponent causes the Tormentor to latch onto the enemy and deal x magicka damage every 2 seconds,healing the sorcerer for t% of the damage. Arguably this could become a pure single slot active, or just turn it into an AoE ability if it remains to be double barred.
• Group Utility none since this is the selfish morph

Daedric Summon passives NEED to be universal. Right now, of the 3 dps versions of sorc (stam/mag/pet) only pets benefit from all passives, while mag and potentially stam only benefits from one outside of dropping an ultimate. Something needs to be done for this,and would actually help to alleviate the shield nerfs. Ideally, this class line needs to be updated before the sorc kit receives any further changes. Some themes for how to change passives:

• Have passives be active at all times and be more universal, but have their effectiveness increase with a pet summoned.
• Have passives be active at all times and be more universal, but have their effectiveness scale with number of Daedric pets summoned. This would be an indirect buff to Atronach as well
• Have passives be active at all times and be more universal. Similar to the Templar Light Weaver passive, have 1 passive that makes each summon apply some form of buff while summoned, such as Major/Minor Berserk while Atronach is up/for x seconds after Atronach is summoned.
• Have passives be active at all times and be more universal

Special Mentions:

• Air Atronach is cool but would rather have it be a lower cost ultimate and not behave exactly like Storm Atro. Instead of mobility, increase spammability to simulate mobility to better suit stam sorc playstyles.
• Move 8% max Mag from Bound Armor to passive. Or reduce the max mag but add some form on sustain component to give it a different identity from Nb Flood passive while simultaneously addressing sorc sustain. This passive would also increase pet survivability, with a focus on PvE
• Increase pet group utility to compensate for loss of third bar. These synergies should not affect the caster sorc. Ex. Atronach grants Major Berserk to the synergy activator but also grants Empower to nearby allies every 3-4 seconds after activation.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Long overdue, never should have had pets. Daedric Summoning should work like the rest of the Elder Scrolls franchise.


You summon (creature) from Oblivion for <dur> seconds on your position/target position.

@Tasear this is ultimately the best option. The primary reason on console that pets aren't used is due to lack of control. Turning the pets into timed summons would allow greater control of them without overpowering them. It would make the pet play more dynamic and less overbearing in duels.

Right now, pet sorc playstyle is pretty much just heavy attack and hope for the best, which isn't really the best gameplay.

From a PvP perspective, pets are technically worth the double-bar slot due to LoS potential/cheese. What holds them back is control of these pets. Including some form of active player requirement would make the worth the bar slots in PvP.

So to answer your question

Tasear wrote: »

What would make it worth two bar slots?

Give players greater control of these active skills by reducing the passive nature of their effects and making them, well, more active. Also increase the group utility of pets to compensate for loss of third bar. Below are examples to illustrate what I mean.

Unstable Familiar

• becomes a targetable AoE, and moves to the location of cast. If the pulses are already going, recasting the skill simply moves the familiar but does not reset the stun timer and does not cost magicka
• Group Utility: Applies Minor Breach for 8 seconds

Clanfear

• a single target skill that charges the target stunning them and slows all other enemies hit (only targeted enemy is stunned) on top of the heal and would deal minor damage, not a lot since the damage is secondary and more so because getting headbutt by a clanfear should at least tickle
• Group Utility: Applies Minor Life Steal to all enemies within a radius of impact. The Minor Lifesteal persists for 3 seconds after leaving the area.

Matriarch

• provide the same burst heal, but on cast it returns to the sorc. I don't recall the heal having a cast time, but if it does remove it. A defensive pet should not stray to far from what it's meant to defend.
• Group Utility: Additionally, Twilight grants Minor Expedition for 4 seconds after healing. This skill does not need too much utility since it is already group oriented. Anything too strong would overload this skill.

Tormentor

• could be a selfish/damage heal. Targeting an opponent causes the Tormentor to latch onto the enemy and deal x magicka damage every 2 seconds,healing the sorcerer for t% of the damage. Arguably this could become a pure single slot active, or just turn it into an AoE ability if it remains to be double barred.
• Group Utility none since this is the selfish morph

Daedric Summon passives NEED to be universal. Right now, of the 3 dps versions of sorc (stam/mag/pet) only pets benefit from all passives, while mag and potentially stam only benefits from one outside of dropping an ultimate. Something needs to be done for this,and would actually help to alleviate the shield nerfs. Ideally, this class line needs to be updated before the sorc kit receives any further changes. Some themes for how to change passives:

• Have passives be active at all times and be more universal, but have their effectiveness increase with a pet summoned.
• Have passives be active at all times and be more universal, but have their effectiveness scale with number of Daedric pets summoned. This would be an indirect buff to Atronach as well
• Have passives be active at all times and be more universal. Similar to the Templar Light Weaver passive, have 1 passive that makes each summon apply some form of buff while summoned, such as Major/Minor Berserk while Atronach is up/for x seconds after Atronach is summoned.
• Have passives be active at all times and be more universal

Special Mentions:

• Air Atronach is cool but would rather have it be a lower cost ultimate and not behave exactly like Storm Atro. Instead of mobility, increase spammability to simulate mobility to better suit stam sorc playstyles.
• Move 8% max Mag from Bound Armor to passive. Or reduce the max mag but add some form on sustain component to give it a different identity from Nb Flood passive while simultaneously addressing sorc sustain. This passive would also increase pet survivability, with a focus on PvE
• Increase pet group utility to compensate for loss of third bar. These synergies should not affect the caster sorc. Ex. Atronach grants Major Berserk to the synergy activator but also grants Empower to nearby allies every 3-4 seconds after activation.

Remember class reps are mostly here to gather concerns. We don't control the changes. But yes noted concerns.

I understand. The "proposals" were more examples to help illustrate what I meant when I said more active.

For a more objective summary:

• Greater control with pets outside PC commands and heavy attacks as these are limited in performance, especially on console
• Additional group utility added to pets to validate two bar slots and compensate for loss of third bar
• Shift from passive active abilities to be more active, thereby rewarding skilled gameplay. Passive playstyles are ok and necessary for a game like ESO to guide beginners/casuals. However, these passive playstyles should hint at greater mechanics to introduce newer players to them, and be less rewarding than active playstyles to incentivize individual player growth and reward skilled gameplay. This applies to both pets and Bound Armor
• Defensive pets should behave differently than offensive pets, and prioritize staying alive in order to actually fulfill their intended purpose -this is specifically in regards to Twilight as it far too often ends up on the other side of the keep in PvP or in some corner in PvE, potentially pulling adds/boss in pugs.
• Stam based Atronach should have greater emphasis on mobility than Storm Atronach. Storm Atronach works on a magsorc because it allows the class to relieve melee pressure/create distance in PvP as a zoning tool since the class' primary (intended) defensive mechanic is mobility. Stam sorcs are designed the same way but stam has greater access to survival tools, and is therefore less reliant on mobility. So while a physical variant of Storm Atronach could work,it will ultimately fall short because it does not affect the class combat to the same level that Storm atro does for the mag variant. Dawnbreaker will still have much greater synergy with the class damage wise. If an Air Atronach is going to compete with DB, it must not do so from a damage approach
• If Atronach is meant to see greater use in PvE, it must provide more benefical group synergy than Major Berserk to a single player.
• Daedric Skill line passives, need to benefit the class as a whole and not just a minority niche. As passives are the foundation for a class, these should really be priority since any skill changes will be amplified/diminished by how these passives turn out