usmguy1234 wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

...

You also need to take in to account the amount of stats that a person in heavy armor will have. If it's health based, the sky is the limit. If it's magicka based, I couldn't see more than around 35k mag... so roughly 7-8k shield depending on the shield. However, the outlier will be healing ward which might create some interesting "situations."

usmguy1234 wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

...

You also need to take in to account the amount of stats that a person in heavy armor will have. If it's health based, the sky is the limit. If it's magicka based, I couldn't see more than around 35k mag... so roughly 7-8k shield depending on the shield. However, the outlier will be healing ward which might create some interesting "situations."

This is why I kept everything based on percentages. I didn't account for the total strength of the shield at all but instead how much average increased damage would be received.

I'm just sitting here imagining someone wearing pariah casting healing ward...

idk wrote: »

I am not saying OP is wrong by the forums is not the best sampling for the type of information (s)he is working with.

More so, I do not see why someone would choose to use a shield very often in PvP with the 1 second activation time. It is essentially asking to be killed quickly.

katorga wrote: »

Steadfast ward with pariah might be neat -> block for the psijiik shield -> boom right into deep thoughts for another 30% mitigation while you face tank and regen stats.

Or Steadfast ward with undeath passive -> elusive mist for another 75% mitigation.

Reality, ZOS digs in their heals on their dumb idea and goes whole hog with 1 second cast times on all shields to solve the newly created problem of the now overpowered heavy armor/damage reduction insta-cast shields.

Or maybe its finally time to apply battle spirit to armor and reduce it by 50% in pvp, lol.

There was actually coherent reasoning behind why shields had no armor mitigation or crit damage.Throwing that out on a whim is going to cause all sorts of unintended imbalances.

Minno wrote: »

Ultimately its a means to an end. Your damage, after reduced by armor+other percentage based mitigation, will then be subtracted by the shield value. Bleeds ignore armor, so unless you have things like minor/major protection, then that dot is hitting your shield at full value.

Block goes after this; light armor users running SNB/ice staff backbar might see a decent return, since it's 50% off base block and another 20% roughly. But dots drain your stam in block.

High crit resist will be the best supplement to your defense. On it's own, while it reduces your enemy's potential on crits, you still have to deal with those high dmg tooltips coming in. Though crit resist+major protection are arguably the better defenses against bleeds. If your taget has terrible crit dmg and crit chance, but obscene dmg tooltips, you might be able to stop extra dmg but not the original source.

Can you get high resists with light armor? Yes (chudan/pirate, pariah, fort brass, protective). Chudan/pirate is 21k with 5/1/1 with heavy on chest. But negated by bleeds and higher pene builds.

Can you use a quicker shield? yes but can be smaller than the cost justifies. Though with above, you can soak the first hit, then reposition to soak the pressure dmg.

Overall it's a good change; forces defense diversity.

Dymence wrote: »

TL;DR the amount of pen people have in PVP cancel out the "buff" shields get from resistances, now giving us shields that can be crit and have a 1 second cast time on top of that. Gonna be a great patch for light armor builds

Dymence wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

TL;DR the amount of pen people have in PVP cancel out the "buff" shields get from resistances, now giving us shields that can be crit and have a 1 second cast time on top of that. Gonna be a great patch for light armor builds

Sure, assuming you still run the same build as last patch. I would probably recommend changing things up though

No matter what you "change up" you're gonna be 10 times weaker doing that in a game where magicka builds are already inferior to stamina. Sounds like a great balance patch

PathwayM wrote: »

On average, in full legendary gear with all relevant passives (assuming no relevant armor/spell resist buffs from sets), a magicka character will have somewhere in the realm of 11.6k Spell Resist and 9.8k Physical Resistance (unbuffed). This correlates to roughly 18% and 15% mitigation respectively. Now, while this is easily penetrated by many magicka builds to result in 0% bonus mitigation on the shields, many current stamina DPS setups in PvP seem to have around 6-7k penetration (without Major/Minor Fracture). This will result in the shields seeming roughly 5-8% stronger on average due to remaining armor/spell resist.

Keep in mind that the only shield that would probably be considered OP with heavy armor (if the build would even be viable) would be Hardened ward as harness is locked to 5 light armor

Dymence wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

I posted a poll here to try and gather information about the average spell penetration you might find on a medium armor PvP dps in Cyrodiil here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437742/how-much-penetration-is-just-right-d#latest

While most of the feedback there was pretty useless and filled with innuendo, I was really just trying to confirm a suspicion that I had where most stam DPS generally sat around 6-7k Physical Penetration in Cyrodiil.

Why does this matter? Well, according to the patch notes, shields can now receive critical damage and benefit from your character's resistance stats.

On average, in full legendary gear with all relevant passives (assuming no relevant armor/spell resist buffs from sets), a magicka character will have somewhere in the realm of 11.6k Spell Resist and 9.8k Physical Resistance (unbuffed). This correlates to roughly 18% and 15% mitigation respectively. Now, while this is easily penetrated by many magicka builds to result in 0% bonus mitigation on the shields, many current stamina DPS setups in PvP seem to have around 6-7k penetration (without Major/Minor Fracture). This will result in the shields seeming roughly 5-8% stronger on average due to remaining armor/spell resist.

But what about crits you ask? Ahah now that's where the big changes are! In a CP-enabled campaign it isn't uncommon for a character to have anywhere between 70-90% increased critical damage. Of course accounting for 7 Impen, and 42 Points in the resistant CP passive yields roughly 2900 critical resist, or -44% Enemy critical damage taken. (Which is pretty high)

This now means that shields can be expected to take roughly (((1-0.065)*(1+((80-44)/100)))-1)*100 = 27% More damage on average from stamina DPS.

This greatly changes though when the shield caster is in heavy armor. Let's assume the shield caster in this case has 27k unbuffed armor and spell resist with the same critical resistance against an opponent with roughly 80% critical hit damage. With 27k Armor and Spell resist granting roughly 41% mitigation.

We now run into a situation closer to (((1-0.41)*(1+((80-44)/100)))-1)*100 = -19.76% Damage.

While I'm not sure how useful this information is, it definitely shows that users in light armor are going to greatly suffer increased damage against their shields than ever before on average; while heavy armor users will notice a massive improvement to shield strength in general.

Also, keep in mind, the math here is very rough and many assumptions are made for the purposes of generalizing. I found this pretty interesting.

Yeah, but how much more powerful will shields be on light armor builds wearing fortified brass or armor master?

OR running 1 pirate skeleton 1 Chuldon

OR running protective jewlery

OR Combining all of that!!

Yeah imagine all of that, your shields still melting, and you dealing so little damage that you might end up healing your opponent.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

I posted a poll here to try and gather information about the average spell penetration you might find on a medium armor PvP dps in Cyrodiil here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437742/how-much-penetration-is-just-right-d#latest

While most of the feedback there was pretty useless and filled with innuendo, I was really just trying to confirm a suspicion that I had where most stam DPS generally sat around 6-7k Physical Penetration in Cyrodiil.

Why does this matter? Well, according to the patch notes, shields can now receive critical damage and benefit from your character's resistance stats.

On average, in full legendary gear with all relevant passives (assuming no relevant armor/spell resist buffs from sets), a magicka character will have somewhere in the realm of 11.6k Spell Resist and 9.8k Physical Resistance (unbuffed). This correlates to roughly 18% and 15% mitigation respectively. Now, while this is easily penetrated by many magicka builds to result in 0% bonus mitigation on the shields, many current stamina DPS setups in PvP seem to have around 6-7k penetration (without Major/Minor Fracture). This will result in the shields seeming roughly 5-8% stronger on average due to remaining armor/spell resist.

But what about crits you ask? Ahah now that's where the big changes are! In a CP-enabled campaign it isn't uncommon for a character to have anywhere between 70-90% increased critical damage. Of course accounting for 7 Impen, and 42 Points in the resistant CP passive yields roughly 2900 critical resist, or -44% Enemy critical damage taken. (Which is pretty high)

This now means that shields can be expected to take roughly (((1-0.065)*(1+((80-44)/100)))-1)*100 = 27% More damage on average from stamina DPS.

This greatly changes though when the shield caster is in heavy armor. Let's assume the shield caster in this case has 27k unbuffed armor and spell resist with the same critical resistance against an opponent with roughly 80% critical hit damage. With 27k Armor and Spell resist granting roughly 41% mitigation.

We now run into a situation closer to (((1-0.41)*(1+((80-44)/100)))-1)*100 = -19.76% Damage.

While I'm not sure how useful this information is, it definitely shows that users in light armor are going to greatly suffer increased damage against their shields than ever before on average; while heavy armor users will notice a massive improvement to shield strength in general.

Also, keep in mind, the math here is very rough and many assumptions are made for the purposes of generalizing. I found this pretty interesting.

Yeah, but how much more powerful will shields be on light armor builds wearing fortified brass or armor master?

OR running 1 pirate skeleton 1 Chuldon

OR running protective jewlery

OR Combining all of that!!

Yeah imagine all of that, your shields still melting, and you dealing so little damage that you might end up healing your opponent.

Yeah but people will, we already have tanks in Cyro with insane mitigation that do no damage but annoy groups of players. Add a shield plus all that mitigation and it'll be an even bigger annoyance

That's the point and why this change is coming and will be balanced.

You choose, "defense or offense" not both.

If a character can't kill even a squishy because their defense is too high while the squishy can't kill them, that's perfect balance. If a squishy fights another squishy and they both have paper-thin defenses so it's a dps race then that is also perfect balance.

You people are arguing for the extremes that are not the problem. The problem could only ever arise in the middle with hybrids that can find a way to have high damage with relatively high defenses. Those hybrids likely have some other tool that makes that work though which a true-DPS or true-Tank doesn't have and would be a prime target for a balance adjustment, like how Sloads was letting tanks kill targets faster than it let anybody kill tanks.

I would say they correctly achieved their balance goal as best they can for shields right now, though the cast time is superfluous and should be brought back to instant, and they just need to watch for what makes the overpowered hybrids possible and fix those problems.

You choose, "defense or offense" not both.

PathwayM wrote: »

I posted a poll here to try and gather information about the average spell penetration you might find on a medium armor PvP dps in Cyrodiil here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437742/how-much-penetration-is-just-right-d#latest

While most of the feedback there was pretty useless and filled with innuendo, I was really just trying to confirm a suspicion that I had where most stam DPS generally sat around 6-7k Physical Penetration in Cyrodiil.

Why does this matter? Well, according to the patch notes, shields can now receive critical damage and benefit from your character's resistance stats.

On average, in full legendary gear with all relevant passives (assuming no relevant armor/spell resist buffs from sets), a magicka character will have somewhere in the realm of 11.6k Spell Resist and 9.8k Physical Resistance (unbuffed). This correlates to roughly 18% and 15% mitigation respectively. Now, while this is easily penetrated by many magicka builds to result in 0% bonus mitigation on the shields, many current stamina DPS setups in PvP seem to have around 6-7k penetration (without Major/Minor Fracture). This will result in the shields seeming roughly 5-8% stronger on average due to remaining armor/spell resist.

But what about crits you ask? Ahah now that's where the big changes are! In a CP-enabled campaign it isn't uncommon for a character to have anywhere between 70-90% increased critical damage. Of course accounting for 7 Impen, and 42 Points in the resistant CP passive yields roughly 2900 critical resist, or -44% Enemy critical damage taken. (Which is pretty high)

This now means that shields can be expected to take roughly (((1-0.065)*(1+((80-44)/100)))-1)*100 = 27% More damage on average from stamina DPS.

This greatly changes though when the shield caster is in heavy armor. Let's assume the shield caster in this case has 27k unbuffed armor and spell resist with the same critical resistance against an opponent with roughly 80% critical hit damage. With 27k Armor and Spell resist granting roughly 41% mitigation.

We now run into a situation closer to (((1-0.41)*(1+((80-44)/100)))-1)*100 = -19.76% Damage.

While I'm not sure how useful this information is, it definitely shows that users in light armor are going to greatly suffer increased damage against their shields than ever before on average; while heavy armor users will notice a massive improvement to shield strength in general.

Also, keep in mind, the math here is very rough and many assumptions are made for the purposes of generalizing. I found this pretty interesting.