MATH WARNING!: Thoughts/Findings regarding Shield Spell/Physical/Critical Resist

Mystrius_Archaion

Xsorus wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=84447

This is what i'm thinking next patch; but I've not gotten access to Bright yet though...That could be more interesting.

Hmm, you actually slotted the overload bar on that build editor?
That's going away with this PTS.

leepalmer95

Xsorus wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=84447

This is what i'm thinking next patch; but I've not gotten access to Bright yet though...That could be more interesting.

I've said this before but that setup just isn't good.

You haven't even got a 11k curse tooltip with an wpn dmg glyph up, that is super weak dmg. Who are you going to kill with that dmg? A clench tooltip with is 7.1k? So 3550 dmg in pvp before armour and cp reduction? Literally 2k clenches. Thats also easy to dodge, block, reflect...

It's clear you don't really know how to builds character, you've got a lightning destro over inferno, you haven't got a destro staff skill on for 8% more dmg.

You've put a wpn dmg enchant front bar when shock is so much better.

You haven't infused your back bar for a buffed wpn dmg enchant which is much higher uptime and strength and if you play a sorc you know that'll this is always up if they weave properly.

Your cp here is messed up as well, you've clearly artificially inflated your cp just to it looks like you have bigger stats because:

37 points into light armour focus is 3.2k armour
37% points into 9.09% physical/ poison and disease mitigation.

660 armour is 1% mitigation

I can take 12 points of out light armour focus and put them into hardy to bring it to 11% and gain 2% mitigation or (1320 armour) and still have 2.3k armour from light focus. It's more mitigation and % pen from maces for example doesn't reduce it so it's better off.

Also you have a lot of cp on whole % e.g. 19% exactly, you do know that if its a whole % it gets rounded down right? So they only count as 18% it needs to be over.

Of course i'm not making a 'Look at me adapt and stop crying' Sorc build on the forum so i don't inflate stats for better numbers.

You wouldn't even be that much more tanky than on live either, around the same i'd say. Should you have armour and crit resist but your max maxicka took a nose dive and most sorc builds have around 42k- 50k magicka for shield size. You are only using 1 shield and it has such a weak shield size.

So you've took a nose dive in dmg and won't kill anything, your dmg now consists of 3 skills... you have no answer to block, no answer to dk's or wardens, your burst is so low you'll struggle to burst medium builds never mind heavy.

So like i said before the build is bad. Do you actually play a sorc and have you ever made a build yourself?

Xsorus

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=84447

This is what i'm thinking next patch; but I've not gotten access to Bright yet though...That could be more interesting.

Hmm, you actually slotted the overload bar on that build editor?
That's going away with this PTS.

I don't count those skills

Just ignore them.

Its from previous build and it just keeps getting filled for some reason.

leepalmer95

Xsorus wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=84447

This is what i'm thinking next patch; but I've not gotten access to Bright yet though...That could be more interesting.

Hmm, you actually slotted the overload bar on that build editor?
That's going away with this PTS.

I don't count those skills

Just ignore them.

Its from previous build and it just keeps getting filled for some reason.

I assume you read my response?

Xsorus

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=84447

This is what i'm thinking next patch; but I've not gotten access to Bright yet though...That could be more interesting.

I've said this before but that setup just isn't good.

You haven't even got a 11k curse tooltip with an wpn dmg glyph up, that is super weak dmg. Who are you going to kill with that dmg? A clench tooltip with is 7.1k? So 3550 dmg in pvp before armour and cp reduction? Literally 2k clenches. Thats also easy to dodge, block, reflect...

It's clear you don't really know how to builds character, you've got a lightning destro over inferno, you haven't got a destro staff skill on for 8% more dmg.

You've put a wpn dmg enchant front bar when shock is so much better.

You haven't infused your back bar for a buffed wpn dmg enchant which is much higher uptime and strength and if you play a sorc you know that'll this is always up if they weave properly.

Your cp here is messed up as well, you've clearly artificially inflated your cp just to it looks like you have bigger stats because:

37 points into light armour focus is 3.2k armour
37% points into 9.09% physical/ poison and disease mitigation.

660 armour is 1% mitigation

I can take 12 points of out light armour focus and put them into hardy to bring it to 11% and gain 2% mitigation or (1320 armour) and still have 2.3k armour from light focus. It's more mitigation and % pen from maces for example doesn't reduce it so it's better off.

Also you have a lot of cp on whole % e.g. 19% exactly, you do know that if its a whole % it gets rounded down right? So they only count as 18% it needs to be over.

Of course i'm not making a 'Look at me adapt and stop crying' Sorc build on the forum so i don't inflate stats for better numbers.

You wouldn't even be that much more tanky than on live either, around the same i'd say. Should you have armour and crit resist but your max maxicka took a nose dive and most sorc builds have around 42k- 50k magicka for shield size. You are only using 1 shield and it has such a weak shield size.

So you've took a nose dive in dmg and won't kill anything, your dmg now consists of 3 skills... you have no answer to block, no answer to dk's or wardens, your burst is so low you'll struggle to burst medium builds never mind heavy.

So like i said before the build is bad. Do you actually play a sorc and have you ever made a build yourself?

If I recall, you run Necro/ShadowRend/Shackle? How well do you think your build will be next patch?

Why are you comparing your current builds damage with Post patch builds damage? I'm setting it up based on whats coming. You're crying that the build won't kill anything when I've showed you before that its not much different in terms of damage of what An average dom/shackle/lich setup might run.....Yes it is less damage; however it should have more mitigation.

As for why I use Lightning staff, because I have a Master's Lightning staff and not a fire one? If I didn't use Master's Lightning staff i'll probably switch to Willpower (or change out Lich with Bright) and use Fire Staff. I may still do that but I don't have access to test it yet.

I'll take that CP suggestion into account; I didn't fine tune any of the CP though..I just wanted to get a basic idea of what i might run.

As for being Tanky or not compared to 42k/50k shield size...I don't think it'll be tanky as that currently..On live I currently have 42k mana or so and around 16k-18k Shields if i recall....This will get to around 10k with a single shield maybe, and might be the equivalent of 13k or 14k if I'm lucky. however its what I have to work with

If you're whining about not being able to "beat" DK's or Wardens, swap to Bright or Willpower Fire staff and slot Runecage since you seem to think it'll help and run Force Pulse instead if ya want.

Also did you just ask if i ever made a build before? You're running the most basic sorc setup out there....Have you ever actually made a build yourself or did you pull everything you've learned from youtube?

In fact...Lets have a build challenge, you make a build with the editor..post it on here.

Lets see if you can improve on what has been discussed instead of crying woe is me.

Minno

Xsorus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=84447

This is what i'm thinking next patch; but I've not gotten access to Bright yet though...That could be more interesting.

I've said this before but that setup just isn't good.

You haven't even got a 11k curse tooltip with an wpn dmg glyph up, that is super weak dmg. Who are you going to kill with that dmg? A clench tooltip with is 7.1k? So 3550 dmg in pvp before armour and cp reduction? Literally 2k clenches. Thats also easy to dodge, block, reflect...

It's clear you don't really know how to builds character, you've got a lightning destro over inferno, you haven't got a destro staff skill on for 8% more dmg.

You've put a wpn dmg enchant front bar when shock is so much better.

You haven't infused your back bar for a buffed wpn dmg enchant which is much higher uptime and strength and if you play a sorc you know that'll this is always up if they weave properly.

Your cp here is messed up as well, you've clearly artificially inflated your cp just to it looks like you have bigger stats because:

37 points into light armour focus is 3.2k armour
37% points into 9.09% physical/ poison and disease mitigation.

660 armour is 1% mitigation

I can take 12 points of out light armour focus and put them into hardy to bring it to 11% and gain 2% mitigation or (1320 armour) and still have 2.3k armour from light focus. It's more mitigation and % pen from maces for example doesn't reduce it so it's better off.

Also you have a lot of cp on whole % e.g. 19% exactly, you do know that if its a whole % it gets rounded down right? So they only count as 18% it needs to be over.

Of course i'm not making a 'Look at me adapt and stop crying' Sorc build on the forum so i don't inflate stats for better numbers.

You wouldn't even be that much more tanky than on live either, around the same i'd say. Should you have armour and crit resist but your max maxicka took a nose dive and most sorc builds have around 42k- 50k magicka for shield size. You are only using 1 shield and it has such a weak shield size.

So you've took a nose dive in dmg and won't kill anything, your dmg now consists of 3 skills... you have no answer to block, no answer to dk's or wardens, your burst is so low you'll struggle to burst medium builds never mind heavy.

So like i said before the build is bad. Do you actually play a sorc and have you ever made a build yourself?

If I recall, you run Necro/ShadowRend/Shackle? How well do you think your build will be next patch?

Why are you comparing your current builds damage with Post patch builds damage? I'm setting it up based on whats coming. You're crying that the build won't kill anything when I've showed you before that its not much different in terms of damage of what An average dom/shackle/lich setup might run.....Yes it is less damage; however it should have more mitigation.

As for why I use Lightning staff, because I have a Master's Lightning staff and not a fire one? If I didn't use Master's Lightning staff i'll probably switch to Willpower (or change out Lich with Bright) and use Fire Staff. I may still do that but I don't have access to test it yet.

I'll take that CP suggestion into account; I didn't fine tune any of the CP though..I just wanted to get a basic idea of what i might run.

As for being Tanky or not compared to 42k/50k shield size...I don't think it'll be tanky as that currently..On live I currently have 42k mana or so and around 16k-18k Shields if i recall....This will get to around 10k with a single shield maybe, and might be the equivalent of 13k or 14k if I'm lucky. however its what I have to work with

If you're whining about not being able to "beat" DK's or Wardens, swap to Bright or Willpower Fire staff and slot Runecage since you seem to think it'll help and run Force Pulse instead if ya want.

Also did you just ask if i ever made a build before? You're running the most basic sorc setup out there....Have you ever actually made a build yourself or did you pull everything you've learned from youtube?

In fact...Lets have a build challenge, you make a build with the editor..post it on here.

Lets see if you can improve on what has been discussed instead of crying woe is me.

Here's my thoughts!:

Definitely mag bone pirate for anything using Swift/protective especially if your race has max mag bonuses . You'll need to shore up the stamina loss so maybe roll tri enchants. Can you do without atro mundas? Maybe SD?

Drop bloodspawn, I know everyone loves it for the Stam Regen but honestly not enough uptime on the resists (pirate/chudan is basically the same as havinga 95% uptime on bloodspawn). You can then roll Swift since you'll be at 21k resists or roll troll king with protective to help recoup some healing. Or an offensive set with protective.

Drop impreg. I know the crit resist are awesome, but you might want transmutation instead since it will give you crit+2sources of Regen and you are already running And you can still use whatever offense staff you want still. I say this because you aren't using 5k+ crit resists with impreg, so I'm my mind it's a waste.

You should be able to hit 37-39k max mag on mag bone pirate with full enchants on armor with some bonuses (especially with inner light) even after eating up your jewelry traits on the niche traits.

Xsorus

Minno wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=84447

This is what i'm thinking next patch; but I've not gotten access to Bright yet though...That could be more interesting.

I've said this before but that setup just isn't good.

You haven't even got a 11k curse tooltip with an wpn dmg glyph up, that is super weak dmg. Who are you going to kill with that dmg? A clench tooltip with is 7.1k? So 3550 dmg in pvp before armour and cp reduction? Literally 2k clenches. Thats also easy to dodge, block, reflect...

It's clear you don't really know how to builds character, you've got a lightning destro over inferno, you haven't got a destro staff skill on for 8% more dmg.

You've put a wpn dmg enchant front bar when shock is so much better.

You haven't infused your back bar for a buffed wpn dmg enchant which is much higher uptime and strength and if you play a sorc you know that'll this is always up if they weave properly.

Your cp here is messed up as well, you've clearly artificially inflated your cp just to it looks like you have bigger stats because:

37 points into light armour focus is 3.2k armour
37% points into 9.09% physical/ poison and disease mitigation.

660 armour is 1% mitigation

I can take 12 points of out light armour focus and put them into hardy to bring it to 11% and gain 2% mitigation or (1320 armour) and still have 2.3k armour from light focus. It's more mitigation and % pen from maces for example doesn't reduce it so it's better off.

Also you have a lot of cp on whole % e.g. 19% exactly, you do know that if its a whole % it gets rounded down right? So they only count as 18% it needs to be over.

Of course i'm not making a 'Look at me adapt and stop crying' Sorc build on the forum so i don't inflate stats for better numbers.

You wouldn't even be that much more tanky than on live either, around the same i'd say. Should you have armour and crit resist but your max maxicka took a nose dive and most sorc builds have around 42k- 50k magicka for shield size. You are only using 1 shield and it has such a weak shield size.

So you've took a nose dive in dmg and won't kill anything, your dmg now consists of 3 skills... you have no answer to block, no answer to dk's or wardens, your burst is so low you'll struggle to burst medium builds never mind heavy.

So like i said before the build is bad. Do you actually play a sorc and have you ever made a build yourself?

If I recall, you run Necro/ShadowRend/Shackle? How well do you think your build will be next patch?

Why are you comparing your current builds damage with Post patch builds damage? I'm setting it up based on whats coming. You're crying that the build won't kill anything when I've showed you before that its not much different in terms of damage of what An average dom/shackle/lich setup might run.....Yes it is less damage; however it should have more mitigation.

As for why I use Lightning staff, because I have a Master's Lightning staff and not a fire one? If I didn't use Master's Lightning staff i'll probably switch to Willpower (or change out Lich with Bright) and use Fire Staff. I may still do that but I don't have access to test it yet.

I'll take that CP suggestion into account; I didn't fine tune any of the CP though..I just wanted to get a basic idea of what i might run.

As for being Tanky or not compared to 42k/50k shield size...I don't think it'll be tanky as that currently..On live I currently have 42k mana or so and around 16k-18k Shields if i recall....This will get to around 10k with a single shield maybe, and might be the equivalent of 13k or 14k if I'm lucky. however its what I have to work with

If you're whining about not being able to "beat" DK's or Wardens, swap to Bright or Willpower Fire staff and slot Runecage since you seem to think it'll help and run Force Pulse instead if ya want.

Also did you just ask if i ever made a build before? You're running the most basic sorc setup out there....Have you ever actually made a build yourself or did you pull everything you've learned from youtube?

In fact...Lets have a build challenge, you make a build with the editor..post it on here.

Lets see if you can improve on what has been discussed instead of crying woe is me.

Here's my thoughts!:

Definitely mag bone pirate for anything using Swift/protective especially if your race has max mag bonuses . You'll need to shore up the stamina loss so maybe roll tri enchants. Can you do without atro mundas? Maybe SD?

Drop bloodspawn, I know everyone loves it for the Stam Regen but honestly not enough uptime on the resists (pirate/chudan is basically the same as havinga 95% uptime on bloodspawn). You can then roll Swift since you'll be at 21k resists or roll troll king with protective to help recoup some healing. Or an offensive set with protective.

Drop impreg. I know the crit resist are awesome, but you might want transmutation instead since it will give you crit+2sources of Regen and you are already running And you can still use whatever offense staff you want still. I say this because you aren't using 5k+ crit resists with impreg, so I'm my mind it's a waste.

You should be able to hit 37-39k max mag on mag bone pirate with full enchants on armor with some bonuses (especially with inner light) even after eating up your jewelry traits on the niche traits.

i'm considering Mag bone pirate; I tested something with similar bonuses and it was a pretty nice upgrade over lich i think.

I won't drop bloodspawn for Pirate/Chu, the extra stamina recovery and ultimate is to nice. If i was going to replace it it'd be for Trolls Like you siad for extra healing.

You can do Trans though, i'm not sure how much better or if its better then Impregnable though.

You could probably get by with Shackle/Mag Bonepirate/Bloodspawn and Protective i think.

kaithuzar

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

I posted a poll here to try and gather information about the average spell penetration you might find on a medium armor PvP dps in Cyrodiil here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/437742/how-much-penetration-is-just-right-d#latest

While most of the feedback there was pretty useless and filled with innuendo, I was really just trying to confirm a suspicion that I had where most stam DPS generally sat around 6-7k Physical Penetration in Cyrodiil.

Why does this matter? Well, according to the patch notes, shields can now receive critical damage and benefit from your character's resistance stats.

On average, in full legendary gear with all relevant passives (assuming no relevant armor/spell resist buffs from sets), a magicka character will have somewhere in the realm of 11.6k Spell Resist and 9.8k Physical Resistance (unbuffed). This correlates to roughly 18% and 15% mitigation respectively. Now, while this is easily penetrated by many magicka builds to result in 0% bonus mitigation on the shields, many current stamina DPS setups in PvP seem to have around 6-7k penetration (without Major/Minor Fracture). This will result in the shields seeming roughly 5-8% stronger on average due to remaining armor/spell resist.

But what about crits you ask? Ahah now that's where the big changes are! In a CP-enabled campaign it isn't uncommon for a character to have anywhere between 70-90% increased critical damage. Of course accounting for 7 Impen, and 42 Points in the resistant CP passive yields roughly 2900 critical resist, or -44% Enemy critical damage taken. (Which is pretty high)

This now means that shields can be expected to take roughly (((1-0.065)*(1+((80-44)/100)))-1)*100 = 27% More damage on average from stamina DPS.

This greatly changes though when the shield caster is in heavy armor. Let's assume the shield caster in this case has 27k unbuffed armor and spell resist with the same critical resistance against an opponent with roughly 80% critical hit damage. With 27k Armor and Spell resist granting roughly 41% mitigation.

We now run into a situation closer to (((1-0.41)*(1+((80-44)/100)))-1)*100 = -19.76% Damage.

While I'm not sure how useful this information is, it definitely shows that users in light armor are going to greatly suffer increased damage against their shields than ever before on average; while heavy armor users will notice a massive improvement to shield strength in general.

Also, keep in mind, the math here is very rough and many assumptions are made for the purposes of generalizing. I found this pretty interesting.

Yeah, but how much more powerful will shields be on light armor builds wearing fortified brass or armor master?

OR running 1 pirate skeleton 1 Chuldon

OR running protective jewlery

OR Combining all of that!!

Yeah imagine all of that, your shields still melting, and you dealing so little damage that you might end up healing your opponent.

Yeah but people will, we already have tanks in Cyro with insane mitigation that do no damage but annoy groups of players. Add a shield plus all that mitigation and it'll be an even bigger annoyance

That's the point and why this change is coming and will be balanced.

You choose, "defense or offense" not both.

If a character can't kill even a squishy because their defense is too high while the squishy can't kill them, that's perfect balance. If a squishy fights another squishy and they both have paper-thin defenses so it's a dps race then that is also perfect balance.

You people are arguing for the extremes that are not the problem. The problem could only ever arise in the middle with hybrids that can find a way to have high damage with relatively high defenses. Those hybrids likely have some other tool that makes that work though which a true-DPS or true-Tank doesn't have and would be a prime target for a balance adjustment, like how Sloads was letting tanks kill targets faster than it let anybody kill tanks.

I would say they correctly achieved their balance goal as best they can for shields right now, though the cast time is superfluous and should be brought back to instant, and they just need to watch for what makes the overpowered hybrids possible and fix those problems.

I never thought I'd read the words "overpowered & hybrids" in the same sentence in this game.

Septimus_Magna

usmguy1234 wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

...

You also need to take in to account the amount of stats that a person in heavy armor will have. If it's health based, the sky is the limit. If it's magicka based, I couldn't see more than around 35k mag... so roughly 7-8k shield depending on the shield. However, the outlier will be healing ward which might create some interesting "situations."

This is why I kept everything based on percentages. I didn't account for the total strength of the shield at all but instead how much average increased damage would be received.

I'm just sitting here imagining someone wearing pariah casting healing ward...

Being debuffed by Soldier of Anguish getting a 2k heal after 6 seconds.

Septimus_Magna

@PathwayM Did you account for the average crit rating? Usually players will have around 40% crit so 60% of the attacks dont benefit from the 70-80% crit dmg modifier.

kaithuzar

@Septimus_Magna
Doesn’t soldier of anguish have crit, lol

kaithuzar

I think the “better players of the game”, typically run with 12-14k spell crit. It won’t be long before stam players catch on & start running ~11k crit because it’s becoming more easily accessible ie...that blackrose 2h.

There’s also krahg (wish there was a 1 piece spell pen)., & is it maces that give weapon pen?

I would imagine we’re going to start seeing ~60% crit builds in cyro; at least on nb’s

leepalmer95

Xsorus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=84447

This is what i'm thinking next patch; but I've not gotten access to Bright yet though...That could be more interesting.

I've said this before but that setup just isn't good.

You haven't even got a 11k curse tooltip with an wpn dmg glyph up, that is super weak dmg. Who are you going to kill with that dmg? A clench tooltip with is 7.1k? So 3550 dmg in pvp before armour and cp reduction? Literally 2k clenches. Thats also easy to dodge, block, reflect...

It's clear you don't really know how to builds character, you've got a lightning destro over inferno, you haven't got a destro staff skill on for 8% more dmg.

You've put a wpn dmg enchant front bar when shock is so much better.

You haven't infused your back bar for a buffed wpn dmg enchant which is much higher uptime and strength and if you play a sorc you know that'll this is always up if they weave properly.

Your cp here is messed up as well, you've clearly artificially inflated your cp just to it looks like you have bigger stats because:

37 points into light armour focus is 3.2k armour
37% points into 9.09% physical/ poison and disease mitigation.

660 armour is 1% mitigation

I can take 12 points of out light armour focus and put them into hardy to bring it to 11% and gain 2% mitigation or (1320 armour) and still have 2.3k armour from light focus. It's more mitigation and % pen from maces for example doesn't reduce it so it's better off.

Also you have a lot of cp on whole % e.g. 19% exactly, you do know that if its a whole % it gets rounded down right? So they only count as 18% it needs to be over.

Of course i'm not making a 'Look at me adapt and stop crying' Sorc build on the forum so i don't inflate stats for better numbers.

You wouldn't even be that much more tanky than on live either, around the same i'd say. Should you have armour and crit resist but your max maxicka took a nose dive and most sorc builds have around 42k- 50k magicka for shield size. You are only using 1 shield and it has such a weak shield size.

So you've took a nose dive in dmg and won't kill anything, your dmg now consists of 3 skills... you have no answer to block, no answer to dk's or wardens, your burst is so low you'll struggle to burst medium builds never mind heavy.

So like i said before the build is bad. Do you actually play a sorc and have you ever made a build yourself?

If I recall, you run Necro/ShadowRend/Shackle? How well do you think your build will be next patch?

Why are you comparing your current builds damage with Post patch builds damage? I'm setting it up based on whats coming. You're crying that the build won't kill anything when I've showed you before that its not much different in terms of damage of what An average dom/shackle/lich setup might run.....Yes it is less damage; however it should have more mitigation.

As for why I use Lightning staff, because I have a Master's Lightning staff and not a fire one? If I didn't use Master's Lightning staff i'll probably switch to Willpower (or change out Lich with Bright) and use Fire Staff. I may still do that but I don't have access to test it yet.

I'll take that CP suggestion into account; I didn't fine tune any of the CP though..I just wanted to get a basic idea of what i might run.

As for being Tanky or not compared to 42k/50k shield size...I don't think it'll be tanky as that currently..On live I currently have 42k mana or so and around 16k-18k Shields if i recall....This will get to around 10k with a single shield maybe, and might be the equivalent of 13k or 14k if I'm lucky. however its what I have to work with

If you're whining about not being able to "beat" DK's or Wardens, swap to Bright or Willpower Fire staff and slot Runecage since you seem to think it'll help and run Force Pulse instead if ya want.

Also did you just ask if i ever made a build before? You're running the most basic sorc setup out there....Have you ever actually made a build yourself or did you pull everything you've learned from youtube?

In fact...Lets have a build challenge, you make a build with the editor..post it on here.

Lets see if you can improve on what has been discussed instead of crying woe is me.

Here's my thoughts!:

Definitely mag bone pirate for anything using Swift/protective especially if your race has max mag bonuses . You'll need to shore up the stamina loss so maybe roll tri enchants. Can you do without atro mundas? Maybe SD?

Drop bloodspawn, I know everyone loves it for the Stam Regen but honestly not enough uptime on the resists (pirate/chudan is basically the same as havinga 95% uptime on bloodspawn). You can then roll Swift since you'll be at 21k resists or roll troll king with protective to help recoup some healing. Or an offensive set with protective.

Drop impreg. I know the crit resist are awesome, but you might want transmutation instead since it will give you crit+2sources of Regen and you are already running And you can still use whatever offense staff you want still. I say this because you aren't using 5k+ crit resists with impreg, so I'm my mind it's a waste.

You should be able to hit 37-39k max mag on mag bone pirate with full enchants on armor with some bonuses (especially with inner light) even after eating up your jewelry traits on the niche traits.

i'm considering Mag bone pirate; I tested something with similar bonuses and it was a pretty nice upgrade over lich i think.

I won't drop bloodspawn for Pirate/Chu, the extra stamina recovery and ultimate is to nice. If i was going to replace it it'd be for Trolls Like you siad for extra healing.

You can do Trans though, i'm not sure how much better or if its better then Impregnable though.

You could probably get by with Shackle/Mag Bonepirate/Bloodspawn and Protective i think.

Heavy shackle, magicka bone pirate + pirate skeleton.

Still be weaker than on live but at least i have a change of killing noobs now. Still useless against anything with a brain.

Derra

usmguy1234 wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

PathwayM wrote: »

...

You also need to take in to account the amount of stats that a person in heavy armor will have. If it's health based, the sky is the limit. If it's magicka based, I couldn't see more than around 35k mag... so roughly 7-8k shield depending on the shield. However, the outlier will be healing ward which might create some interesting "situations."

This is why I kept everything based on percentages. I didn't account for the total strength of the shield at all but instead how much average increased damage would be received.

I'm just sitting here imagining someone wearing pariah casting healing ward...

oblivion dmg glyph and that´s out of the window - healing ward losing the upfront heal made ait a whole lot less attractive if you have a burstheal available on your class.

Xsorus

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=84447

This is what i'm thinking next patch; but I've not gotten access to Bright yet though...That could be more interesting.

I've said this before but that setup just isn't good.

You haven't even got a 11k curse tooltip with an wpn dmg glyph up, that is super weak dmg. Who are you going to kill with that dmg? A clench tooltip with is 7.1k? So 3550 dmg in pvp before armour and cp reduction? Literally 2k clenches. Thats also easy to dodge, block, reflect...

It's clear you don't really know how to builds character, you've got a lightning destro over inferno, you haven't got a destro staff skill on for 8% more dmg.

You've put a wpn dmg enchant front bar when shock is so much better.

You haven't infused your back bar for a buffed wpn dmg enchant which is much higher uptime and strength and if you play a sorc you know that'll this is always up if they weave properly.

Your cp here is messed up as well, you've clearly artificially inflated your cp just to it looks like you have bigger stats because:

37 points into light armour focus is 3.2k armour
37% points into 9.09% physical/ poison and disease mitigation.

660 armour is 1% mitigation

I can take 12 points of out light armour focus and put them into hardy to bring it to 11% and gain 2% mitigation or (1320 armour) and still have 2.3k armour from light focus. It's more mitigation and % pen from maces for example doesn't reduce it so it's better off.

Also you have a lot of cp on whole % e.g. 19% exactly, you do know that if its a whole % it gets rounded down right? So they only count as 18% it needs to be over.

Of course i'm not making a 'Look at me adapt and stop crying' Sorc build on the forum so i don't inflate stats for better numbers.

You wouldn't even be that much more tanky than on live either, around the same i'd say. Should you have armour and crit resist but your max maxicka took a nose dive and most sorc builds have around 42k- 50k magicka for shield size. You are only using 1 shield and it has such a weak shield size.

So you've took a nose dive in dmg and won't kill anything, your dmg now consists of 3 skills... you have no answer to block, no answer to dk's or wardens, your burst is so low you'll struggle to burst medium builds never mind heavy.

So like i said before the build is bad. Do you actually play a sorc and have you ever made a build yourself?

If I recall, you run Necro/ShadowRend/Shackle? How well do you think your build will be next patch?

Why are you comparing your current builds damage with Post patch builds damage? I'm setting it up based on whats coming. You're crying that the build won't kill anything when I've showed you before that its not much different in terms of damage of what An average dom/shackle/lich setup might run.....Yes it is less damage; however it should have more mitigation.

As for why I use Lightning staff, because I have a Master's Lightning staff and not a fire one? If I didn't use Master's Lightning staff i'll probably switch to Willpower (or change out Lich with Bright) and use Fire Staff. I may still do that but I don't have access to test it yet.

I'll take that CP suggestion into account; I didn't fine tune any of the CP though..I just wanted to get a basic idea of what i might run.

As for being Tanky or not compared to 42k/50k shield size...I don't think it'll be tanky as that currently..On live I currently have 42k mana or so and around 16k-18k Shields if i recall....This will get to around 10k with a single shield maybe, and might be the equivalent of 13k or 14k if I'm lucky. however its what I have to work with

If you're whining about not being able to "beat" DK's or Wardens, swap to Bright or Willpower Fire staff and slot Runecage since you seem to think it'll help and run Force Pulse instead if ya want.

Also did you just ask if i ever made a build before? You're running the most basic sorc setup out there....Have you ever actually made a build yourself or did you pull everything you've learned from youtube?

In fact...Lets have a build challenge, you make a build with the editor..post it on here.

Lets see if you can improve on what has been discussed instead of crying woe is me.

Here's my thoughts!:

Definitely mag bone pirate for anything using Swift/protective especially if your race has max mag bonuses . You'll need to shore up the stamina loss so maybe roll tri enchants. Can you do without atro mundas? Maybe SD?

Drop bloodspawn, I know everyone loves it for the Stam Regen but honestly not enough uptime on the resists (pirate/chudan is basically the same as havinga 95% uptime on bloodspawn). You can then roll Swift since you'll be at 21k resists or roll troll king with protective to help recoup some healing. Or an offensive set with protective.

Drop impreg. I know the crit resist are awesome, but you might want transmutation instead since it will give you crit+2sources of Regen and you are already running And you can still use whatever offense staff you want still. I say this because you aren't using 5k+ crit resists with impreg, so I'm my mind it's a waste.

You should be able to hit 37-39k max mag on mag bone pirate with full enchants on armor with some bonuses (especially with inner light) even after eating up your jewelry traits on the niche traits.

i'm considering Mag bone pirate; I tested something with similar bonuses and it was a pretty nice upgrade over lich i think.

I won't drop bloodspawn for Pirate/Chu, the extra stamina recovery and ultimate is to nice. If i was going to replace it it'd be for Trolls Like you siad for extra healing.

You can do Trans though, i'm not sure how much better or if its better then Impregnable though.

You could probably get by with Shackle/Mag Bonepirate/Bloodspawn and Protective i think.

Heavy shackle, magicka bone pirate + pirate skeleton.

Still be weaker than on live but at least i have a change of killing noobs now. Still useless against anything with a brain.

Why not Light Shackle and Protective jewelry, the pen/crit chance should be more damage then heavy with arcane jewelry

I'd switch Pirates out for Trolls (if you go Heavy) or bloodspawn (if you go light)

But that's one of the setups i'm looking at (but light like I said)

i can't put it into the builder yet but used Destruction Mastery to get an idea (cause they're similar in bonuses some what)

leepalmer95

Xsorus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=84447

This is what i'm thinking next patch; but I've not gotten access to Bright yet though...That could be more interesting.

I've said this before but that setup just isn't good.

You haven't even got a 11k curse tooltip with an wpn dmg glyph up, that is super weak dmg. Who are you going to kill with that dmg? A clench tooltip with is 7.1k? So 3550 dmg in pvp before armour and cp reduction? Literally 2k clenches. Thats also easy to dodge, block, reflect...

It's clear you don't really know how to builds character, you've got a lightning destro over inferno, you haven't got a destro staff skill on for 8% more dmg.

You've put a wpn dmg enchant front bar when shock is so much better.

You haven't infused your back bar for a buffed wpn dmg enchant which is much higher uptime and strength and if you play a sorc you know that'll this is always up if they weave properly.

Your cp here is messed up as well, you've clearly artificially inflated your cp just to it looks like you have bigger stats because:

37 points into light armour focus is 3.2k armour
37% points into 9.09% physical/ poison and disease mitigation.

660 armour is 1% mitigation

I can take 12 points of out light armour focus and put them into hardy to bring it to 11% and gain 2% mitigation or (1320 armour) and still have 2.3k armour from light focus. It's more mitigation and % pen from maces for example doesn't reduce it so it's better off.

Also you have a lot of cp on whole % e.g. 19% exactly, you do know that if its a whole % it gets rounded down right? So they only count as 18% it needs to be over.

Of course i'm not making a 'Look at me adapt and stop crying' Sorc build on the forum so i don't inflate stats for better numbers.

You wouldn't even be that much more tanky than on live either, around the same i'd say. Should you have armour and crit resist but your max maxicka took a nose dive and most sorc builds have around 42k- 50k magicka for shield size. You are only using 1 shield and it has such a weak shield size.

So you've took a nose dive in dmg and won't kill anything, your dmg now consists of 3 skills... you have no answer to block, no answer to dk's or wardens, your burst is so low you'll struggle to burst medium builds never mind heavy.

So like i said before the build is bad. Do you actually play a sorc and have you ever made a build yourself?

If I recall, you run Necro/ShadowRend/Shackle? How well do you think your build will be next patch?

Why are you comparing your current builds damage with Post patch builds damage? I'm setting it up based on whats coming. You're crying that the build won't kill anything when I've showed you before that its not much different in terms of damage of what An average dom/shackle/lich setup might run.....Yes it is less damage; however it should have more mitigation.

As for why I use Lightning staff, because I have a Master's Lightning staff and not a fire one? If I didn't use Master's Lightning staff i'll probably switch to Willpower (or change out Lich with Bright) and use Fire Staff. I may still do that but I don't have access to test it yet.

I'll take that CP suggestion into account; I didn't fine tune any of the CP though..I just wanted to get a basic idea of what i might run.

As for being Tanky or not compared to 42k/50k shield size...I don't think it'll be tanky as that currently..On live I currently have 42k mana or so and around 16k-18k Shields if i recall....This will get to around 10k with a single shield maybe, and might be the equivalent of 13k or 14k if I'm lucky. however its what I have to work with

If you're whining about not being able to "beat" DK's or Wardens, swap to Bright or Willpower Fire staff and slot Runecage since you seem to think it'll help and run Force Pulse instead if ya want.

Also did you just ask if i ever made a build before? You're running the most basic sorc setup out there....Have you ever actually made a build yourself or did you pull everything you've learned from youtube?

In fact...Lets have a build challenge, you make a build with the editor..post it on here.

Lets see if you can improve on what has been discussed instead of crying woe is me.

Here's my thoughts!:

Definitely mag bone pirate for anything using Swift/protective especially if your race has max mag bonuses . You'll need to shore up the stamina loss so maybe roll tri enchants. Can you do without atro mundas? Maybe SD?

Drop bloodspawn, I know everyone loves it for the Stam Regen but honestly not enough uptime on the resists (pirate/chudan is basically the same as havinga 95% uptime on bloodspawn). You can then roll Swift since you'll be at 21k resists or roll troll king with protective to help recoup some healing. Or an offensive set with protective.

Drop impreg. I know the crit resist are awesome, but you might want transmutation instead since it will give you crit+2sources of Regen and you are already running And you can still use whatever offense staff you want still. I say this because you aren't using 5k+ crit resists with impreg, so I'm my mind it's a waste.

You should be able to hit 37-39k max mag on mag bone pirate with full enchants on armor with some bonuses (especially with inner light) even after eating up your jewelry traits on the niche traits.

i'm considering Mag bone pirate; I tested something with similar bonuses and it was a pretty nice upgrade over lich i think.

I won't drop bloodspawn for Pirate/Chu, the extra stamina recovery and ultimate is to nice. If i was going to replace it it'd be for Trolls Like you siad for extra healing.

You can do Trans though, i'm not sure how much better or if its better then Impregnable though.

You could probably get by with Shackle/Mag Bonepirate/Bloodspawn and Protective i think.

Heavy shackle, magicka bone pirate + pirate skeleton.

Still be weaker than on live but at least i have a change of killing noobs now. Still useless against anything with a brain.

Why not Light Shackle and Protective jewelry, the pen/crit chance should be more damage then heavy with arcane jewelry

I'd switch Pirates out for Trolls (if you go Heavy) or bloodspawn (if you go light)

But that's one of the setups i'm looking at (but light like I said)

i can't put it into the builder yet but used Destruction Mastery to get an idea (cause they're similar in bonuses some what)

Because heavy is just better, i'd give up too much dmg in light trying to get as much mitigation as heavy where is i won't be giving up anywhere near as much mitigation in heavy trying to get as good dmg as light.

Heavy is generally better, there is a reason why pretty much everyone knowledgeable runs it in cp.

Pirate skeleton is too good of a defensive set, 1 piece which gives 5% mitigation and major protection which is very strong. The more defence you have the better you sustain will be because you'll need to heal/ shield less.

With pirate/ heavy shackle and the new magicka bone pirate.

I'd getting enough max stam and stam sustain from shackle + heavy passive.
I'd getting dmg and shield size/ resource pool/ and sustain from shackle.
I'm getting dmg/ shield size and sustain from magicka bone pirate.

Heavy + pirate skeleton is more than enough defence.

Like i said it's still going to be noticeably weaker the on life where mag sorc is already weak but at least it can kill potatoes.

Xsorus

What mitigation are you actually giving up by doing light and protective vs heavy and arcane?

Pirates doesn’t proc while shielded but i guess mitigation wise you won’t be just spamming them constantly. So it might work decently enough.

Septimus_Magna

kaithuzar wrote: »

I think the “better players of the game”, typically run with 12-14k spell crit. It won’t be long before stam players catch on & start running ~11k crit because it’s becoming more easily accessible ie...that blackrose 2h.

There’s also krahg (wish there was a 1 piece spell pen)., & is it maces that give weapon pen?

I would imagine we’re going to start seeing ~60% crit builds in cyro; at least on nb’s

You confuse crit and penetration. Maces ignore x% armor but only after all other pen is calculated. This means the actually pen is pretty small.

Soldier of Anguish negates 4.8k healing so even if a big healing ward goes off you will receive less healing.

Minno

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

I think the “better players of the game”, typically run with 12-14k spell crit. It won’t be long before stam players catch on & start running ~11k crit because it’s becoming more easily accessible ie...that blackrose 2h.

There’s also krahg (wish there was a 1 piece spell pen)., & is it maces that give weapon pen?

I would imagine we’re going to start seeing ~60% crit builds in cyro; at least on nb’s

You confuse crit and penetration. Maces ignore x% armor but only after all other pen is calculated. This means the actually pen is pretty small.

Soldier of Anguish negates 4.8k healing so even if a big healing ward goes off you will receive less healing.

Wrong, it's after major/minor sources. Other pen follows mace %, I will have to find the thread/equation I got this info from.

So if your target is 16k armor, major subtracts the 5280, then the 2h mace does 20% off the 10720 (2144). If you have 3k from CP, 7720 is the final armor mitigating number (11.66% mitigation for the equation).

Ocelot9x

Something is wrong with your calculation. Avg penetration of a stamina toon is only given by Cp+fracture so we’re talking about 3kish + 5280. Also most of the “good” players I know run axe cause the bleed is so good in 1v1/x scenarios that out scale the efficency of mace penetration (mace is recommended for small scaling tho). Sure,you can build for pen by running spriggan (needed) or 1 piece kragh but there are many better options.
Shields counting armor values will be a huge damage boost if you’re wearing light since the passive.

PathwayM

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

@PathwayM Did you account for the average crit rating? Usually players will have around 40% crit so 60% of the attacks dont benefit from the 70-80% crit dmg modifier.

Nope, that's a good point though.
The math was based on crit attacks mainly.