Bleed Adjustment for PVP

NyassaV · September 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Correction : Bleeds are used by heavy armor builds with high weapon damage.

Can vouch. Is correct.

If bleeds didn't ignore crit resist it might not be too bad

Minno · September 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Correction : Bleeds are used by heavy armor builds with high weapon damage.

Can vouch. Is correct.

If bleeds didn't ignore crit resist it might not be too bad

Bleeds can crit and crit resists reduces bleed crit.

Rukzadlithau · September 2018

Stigant wrote: »

Yet bleeds already do exactly that. Ignoring all resistances actually punishes HA builds the most since that's what they chose to build for.
Obviously bleeds are meant to be the counter to that. It just so happens that ZOS failed terribly in the big picture design choices and gave HA better healing received and HP recovery, so they don't have as much trouble dealig with them as they should.

I'm going to repeat myself here by saying that in every other MMO I played the counter to tank was as effective against every other class/role as against tanks themselves, and that's the way it should be ... if someone builds/chooses class to withstand high amounts of damage, why should someone else be able to deal with it better? If there is a counter to a tank in form of damage bypassing his armor, it should work as well against everyone else, with maybe one exception being healers, having an ability to deal with it better.

When you bleed, you bleed untill stopped, it does not really matter what are you wearing.

@Stigant
It‘s not that they really chose it, it‘s what passively comes with this type of armor. If you actively chose to build for resistances you can also do that on light and medium armor (ofc heavy still allows you most of it). But yes, bleed is the counter to resistances and I think it‘s a cool mechanic and has it‘s place. But as resistances now become the baseline of mitigation for any armor weight (speaking of shields takeing resistances into account), the tooltips are just too high.

leepalmer95 · September 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Correction : Bleeds are used by heavy armor builds with high weapon damage.

Which is less to do the the design of bleeds and more to do with heavy armour sets having higher stats bonuses then medium.

What can compare to ravager/ 7th/ fury?

NyassaV · September 2018

Minno wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Correction : Bleeds are used by heavy armor builds with high weapon damage.

Can vouch. Is correct.

If bleeds didn't ignore crit resist it might not be too bad

Bleeds can crit and crit resists reduces bleed crit.

Last I heard that wasn't the case. I haven't tested it myself but if you have feel free to post pictures and such.

leepalmer95 · September 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Correction : Bleeds are used by heavy armor builds with high weapon damage.

Can vouch. Is correct.

If bleeds didn't ignore crit resist it might not be too bad

Bleeds can crit and crit resists reduces bleed crit.

Last I heard that wasn't the case. I haven't tested it myself but if you have feel free to post pictures and such.

There no need to post pictures.

They are reduced by crit resist and they can crit.

Minno · September 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Correction : Bleeds are used by heavy armor builds with high weapon damage.

Can vouch. Is correct.

If bleeds didn't ignore crit resist it might not be too bad

Bleeds can crit and crit resists reduces bleed crit.

Last I heard that wasn't the case. I haven't tested it myself but if you have feel free to post pictures and such.

There no need to post pictures.

They are reduced by crit resist and they can crit.

Thanks for beating me to the response! I really don't want to be doing the math again or copying it over...

mr_wazzabi · September 2018

An inverted damage modifier could work.
0 mitigation in heavy armor, 20% in medium, 30% in light

olsborg · September 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

If you nerf they by 40% the fact they igmore armour is pointless, better off using other dots.

I like bleeds as they counter the crappy heavy armour meta we have.

The sad fact tho, is that bleeds are more effective vs medium and light armor then heavy armor, so they are overperforming and then some on live atm.

acw37162 · September 2018

You made no case as to how bleeds or overpowered, over preforming, or otherwise a problem. Without compelling evidence to the contrary, how about no.

BaylorCorvette · September 2018

Bleeds are fantastic against perma blockers that aren't purging. Also, I can't tell you how many times I've killed Swift builds with bleeds because they come in an damage bomb someone and fight until they're get low health and speed off. Several times the bleeds have taken them out while they are LoS around a tower or running back into a keep etc.

Strider__Roshin · September 2018

Bleeds are fine until you throw the master weapons into the mix. I'd honestly just reduce their strength rather than bleeds in general.

Cinbri · September 2018

Bleeds is not just counter to heavy armor. Next update bleeds is counter to light armor, medium armor, heavy armor, tanks, dps, healer, bomber, etc. due to it become counter to shields as shields armor mitigation will be ignored while also receive crits from bleeds. It counter to everything that is not templar,warden or purgebot.

Marcusito · September 2018

Coming back from a hiatus. What is this oblivion damage you speak of?

TimeDazzler · September 2018

Bleeds are fine, counters perma-blockers and can be countered by HoT's. If you let someone stack 3+ bleeds on you without going offensive that's a L2P issue. The time it takes to apply bleeds is very low offensive pressure and you should take advantage of that.

Ragnarock41 · September 2018

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Correction : Bleeds are used by heavy armor builds with high weapon damage.

Which is less to do the the design of bleeds and more to do with heavy armour sets having higher stats bonuses then medium.

What can compare to ravager/ 7th/ fury?

Its more to do with the design of bleeds. I'm complaining about bleeds as a player who uses both medium and heavy armor here. Even when I'm in medium armor, fighting a bleedblade in heavy, and the most ridicilous but also easy damage always comes from bleeds.

Bleeds hit astronomically high compared to other dot types. I'm talking about a free proc that will outdamage venomous claws. I've not even mentioned master dw yet.

Bleeds are not counterplay, they are meta. Ignoring resistances is a broken trait. Some people claim that it also ignores crit resistance but I did not bother to test that much. All I know is that my combat metrics tell me my bleeds heavily outperform my poison dots, and this difference only goes higher on a class with better passives.

Then why use bleeds myself if I'm against it? Because I have to. How am I supposed to compete without using bleeds, when literally everyone else and their mums are using it?

Haashhtaag · September 2018

Making bleeds punish “tanks” is a failed premise. Because that ends up hurting medium and light users more. Just like sloads and just like that new set that’s coming out.

Ragnarock41 · September 2018

Cries wrote: »

Bleeds are fine, counters perma-blockers and can be countered by HoT's. If you let someone stack 3+ bleeds on you without going offensive that's a L2P issue. The time it takes to apply bleeds is very low offensive pressure and you should take advantage of that.

Every single dot and aoe is a counter to perma-blockers and can be countered by HoT's. Your reasoning makes literally zero sense.

ak_pvp · September 2018

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Bleeds are needed to fight Heavy armor builds with high damage.

Except they hurt the heavy armour builds with no damage (The mag ones) more because they can't run a marathon away from them and have worse HoTs. And then you realize that the HA builds you complain about use them to. Bleeds are strong in CP PvP, but completely ruin in no CP, which is a large part of the game.

Balance issues doesn't mean that you have to add another hard counter or exception to this mess of a game. Its like saying shieldbreaker/sloads is fine because of dem dere shield stackers. Its not. If you need a hard counter to kill someone, on top of all the other soft methods, you are probably bad.

They aren't much of a problem on their own, and you don't deserve to kill one since they don't provide too much extra support, in the most part, those pug smasher builds 1v1 can't really kill you either, its super easy to stalemate vs one. The only tanks that are actual problems are the healbots which make others tanky, and they can purge bleeds so its pointless anyway.

Simply make them resisted and change their values to maintain their strength in PvE if needed (Probably not, bosses are fully pen'd anyway)

TimeDazzler · September 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Bleeds are fine, counters perma-blockers and can be countered by HoT's. If you let someone stack 3+ bleeds on you without going offensive that's a L2P issue. The time it takes to apply bleeds is very low offensive pressure and you should take advantage of that.

Every single dot and aoe is a counter to perma-blockers and can be countered by HoT's. Your reasoning makes literally zero sense.

What part did you not understand? You can counter bleeds with HoT's, but it adds pressure by decreasing those HoT's. How many permablockers have you seen that just block and spam burst heals, they aren't the issue as they run out of resources very quickly. Permablockers rely on HoT's and burst heal combination to get very tanky. Now let's say you have 2 DPS going at it, one of them has 3 bleeds they have to apply the other has none, the person with none is at an advantage at the start of the fight as applying bleeds does a lot less damage then spammables.

Rukzadlithau · September 2018

Cries wrote: »

What part did you not understand? You can counter bleeds with HoT's, but it adds pressure by decreasing those HoT's. How many permablockers have you seen that just block and spam burst heals, they aren't the issue as they run out of resources very quickly. Permablockers rely on HoT's and burst heal combination to get very tanky. Now let's say you have 2 DPS going at it, one of them has 3 bleeds they have to apply the other has none, the person with none is at an advantage at the start of the fight as applying bleeds does a lot less damage then spammables.

Not like someone that was „smart“ enough to opt. for bleeds ever heard of Minor/Major Defile or infused Disease Enchants.

TimeDazzler · September 2018

Buzo wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

What part did you not understand? You can counter bleeds with HoT's, but it adds pressure by decreasing those HoT's. How many permablockers have you seen that just block and spam burst heals, they aren't the issue as they run out of resources very quickly. Permablockers rely on HoT's and burst heal combination to get very tanky. Now let's say you have 2 DPS going at it, one of them has 3 bleeds they have to apply the other has none, the person with none is at an advantage at the start of the fight as applying bleeds does a lot less damage then spammables.

Not like someone that was „smart“ enough to opt. for bleeds ever heard of Minor/Major Defile or infused Disease Enchants.

Ever consider maybe nerfing major/minor defile and not bleeds? Plus most sources of major defile were decreased to 4 seconds in wolf hunter so to say they haven't been nerfed is bogus. Even though the duration decrease was a step in the right direction the real issue with major/minor defile is the healing reduction not the duration, someone try explaining that to ZOS.

Katahdin · September 2018

greenmachine wrote: »

The nerf cries just never stop around here. What will you all whine about when everything is nerfed beyond all recognition and we're all hitting for 1 on every attack?

Then we can have wet noodle fights, won't that be fun?

Dashmatt · September 2018

A blanket nerf to bleeds would also be huge Werewolf nerf, and not the kind where they can just change gear and skills to adjust.

Stop calling for everything to be nerfed. ZOS listens to the complaints but not the suggestions, and we end up with patches like the one on PTS right now.

WreckfulAbandon · September 2018

Cries wrote: »

Ever consider maybe nerfing major/minor defile and not bleeds? Plus most sources of major defile were decreased to 4 seconds in wolf hunter so to say they haven't been nerfed is bogus. Even though the duration decrease was a step in the right direction the real issue with major/minor defile is the healing reduction not the duration, someone try explaining that to ZOS.

Yes, Defile hurts healing and Bleeds hurt health. In other news, water is wet. Fire burns. Ice is cold. Bleeds are fine. You think we have a heavy armor meta now, just you wait if Defile and Bleeds are nerfed.

Rukzadlithau · September 2018

@WreckfulAbandon
Defile was adjusted with Wolfhunter dlc.
Bleed is one of the two damage types that „hurts health“ with special conditions and thus became Meta for slow learners not too long ago. The same people now try to defend it by over sensationalizing inaccurate statements. :golfclap:

olsborg · September 2018

Bleeds need to be toned down or redone in some way, the fact that they tick so hard on all armor types, specially with master dw is a big issue atm.

WreckfulAbandon · September 2018

Buzo wrote: »

@WreckfulAbandon
Defile was adjusted with Wolfhunter dlc.
Bleed is one of the two damage types that „hurts health“ with special conditions and thus became Meta for slow learners not too long ago. The same people now try to defend it by over sensationalizing inaccurate statements. :golfclap:

aka the same people that would be collecting your AP in cyrodiil with or without meta builds

The_Camper · September 2018

Buzo wrote: »

The_Camper wrote: »

the BLEED damage on twin slashes is affected by battle spirit and is being reduced by the target resistances. Every single skill that has BLEED damage written on it is being affected by battle spirit and resistances.

The BLEED is not reduced by resistances. Every damage except Oblivion is „mitigated“ by Battle Spirit. What BLEED does and why it‘s problematic in PVP for several patches now and alarming for the upcoming patch, is explained in my first post.

Bleed damage on every single skill, including rending slashes, is being mitigated by Resistances. Only bleed damage that ignores resistances are the PASSIVE bleeds. (twin blade and blunt bleed, heavy weapons bleed)

and you go ahead and ask for nerfs to twin slash bleed damage assuming it ignores resistances. This is what's wrong with the community. Cries for nerfs on things that are not even problems themselves

ak_pvp · September 2018

The_Camper wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

The_Camper wrote: »

the BLEED damage on twin slashes is affected by battle spirit and is being reduced by the target resistances. Every single skill that has BLEED damage written on it is being affected by battle spirit and resistances.

The BLEED is not reduced by resistances. Every damage except Oblivion is „mitigated“ by Battle Spirit. What BLEED does and why it‘s problematic in PVP for several patches now and alarming for the upcoming patch, is explained in my first post.

Bleed damage on every single skill, including rending slashes, is being mitigated by Resistances. Only bleed damage that ignores resistances are the PASSIVE bleeds. (twin blade and blunt bleed, heavy weapons bleed)

and you go ahead and ask for nerfs to twin slash bleed damage assuming it ignores resistances. Please be informed a bit more. This is what's wrong with the community. Cries for nerfs on things that are not even problems themselves

You are wrong. Go test.