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Shield Fatigue?
LiquidPony
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Simple proposal: revert the 1-second cast time on Conjured Ward and Annulment and replace it with Ward Fatigue (i.e., give it the Streak treatment).
If Shields are to be considered the roll-dodge analogue for magicka characters, it seems logical that the control used to keep it in check should be similar.
Scaling up the cost of shields cast within some window (say, double the cost if cast again within 4 seconds) prevents both shield stacking (a problem in PvP) and shield spamming (which is part of the reason healers "don't feel necessary" in PvE). I don't know what the appropriate timing or cost increase would be, that's just an example. Potentially the window should be something like 6-8 seconds to prevent shield stacking altogether, and perhaps the cost increase should be something more like 50% (which I believe is in line with Dodge Fatigue).
With Conjured Ward for instance, if the first cast has a cost of ~3500, a second cast within 4 seconds would cost ~7000, and another cast within 4 seconds of that would cost ~14000 (at a 50% increase that would be 3500, 5250 and 7875). In order to effectively solve the "problems" ZOS has identified, this would have to apply to both Conjured Ward and Annulment (e.g., casting Hardened Ward and then casting Harness Magicka within 4 seconds would apply the doubled cost to Harness Magicka).
This change would allow shields to continue to be used reactively to avoid one-shot mechanics in PvE and as a first line of defense in PvP. However, going beyond a single cast would have a crippling affect on sustain (and therefore DPS output) and on the ability to cast heals or use escape tools.
Edited by LiquidPony on September 23, 2018 7:37AM If Shields are to be considered the roll-dodge analogue for magicka characters, it seems logical that the control used to keep it in check should be similar.
Scaling up the cost of shields cast within some window (say, double the cost if cast again within 4 seconds) prevents both shield stacking (a problem in PvP) and shield spamming (which is part of the reason healers "don't feel necessary" in PvE). I don't know what the appropriate timing or cost increase would be, that's just an example. Potentially the window should be something like 6-8 seconds to prevent shield stacking altogether, and perhaps the cost increase should be something more like 50% (which I believe is in line with Dodge Fatigue).
With Conjured Ward for instance, if the first cast has a cost of ~3500, a second cast within 4 seconds would cost ~7000, and another cast within 4 seconds of that would cost ~14000 (at a 50% increase that would be 3500, 5250 and 7875). In order to effectively solve the "problems" ZOS has identified, this would have to apply to both Conjured Ward and Annulment (e.g., casting Hardened Ward and then casting Harness Magicka within 4 seconds would apply the doubled cost to Harness Magicka).
This change would allow shields to continue to be used reactively to avoid one-shot mechanics in PvE and as a first line of defense in PvP. However, going beyond a single cast would have a crippling affect on sustain (and therefore DPS output) and on the ability to cast heals or use escape tools.
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Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭An 100% cost increase would not really be that nice. Maybe 30/40% would make sense, but 100% is just as bad as the 1s cast timeEdited by Nerftheforums on September 23, 2018 7:36AM2 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »An 100% cost increase would not really be that nice. Maybe 30/40% would make sense, but 100% is just as bad as the 1s cast time
Maybe. I don't know what the appropriate number would be. But at least it gives you the opportunity to react and throw up a shield against some big chunk of incoming damage rather than just eating it, which is what happens with the 1-second cast time.1 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nope.
They already only last 1-2 seconds in PvP.
Maybe it could work for Magblades who can switch between the light armour shields and their class defence (cloak) to keep the cost down - like how rollerblades do with dodge..
How can sorc use its class defence (another shield) to keep the cost down?
They'd be oom in seconds.Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.8 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭I'd rather ZOS settle on how they want shields to work mechanically first - what should work against them, what shouldn't, etc, before we mess with costs and strength. It took them this long to make enchants (and poisons, I think?) proc properly against shields. I'm glad they're willing to do something, but let's not make like shields were strong enough to warrant nerfs this patch - they're just funky in functionality enough that they need to be standardized a bit. I definitely approve of the armor res thing, allowing enchants/whatever to proc against 'em and stuff (not fond of the crit change - shields still can't crit - but I'm willing to see where it goes).
Also, shields will have been nerfed for most magicka builds if the current PTS makes it to live (check sorc feedback thread for math), even if you remove the cast time. I'm not sure why you want to add an increasing stacking cost to that.
At this point I'd be happy if they just reverted the cast time next PTS cycle and...see how that goes.
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LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'd rather ZOS settle on how they want shields to work mechanically first - what should work against them, what shouldn't, etc, before we mess with costs and strength. It took them this long to make enchants (and poisons, I think?) proc properly against shields. I'm glad they're willing to do something, but let's not make like shields were strong enough to warrant nerfs this patch - they're just funky in functionality enough that they need to be standardized a bit. I definitely approve of the armor res thing, allowing enchants/whatever to proc against 'em and stuff (not fond of the crit change - shields still can't crit - but I'm willing to see where it goes).
Also, shields will have been nerfed for most magicka builds if the current PTS makes it to live (check sorc feedback thread for math), even if you remove the cast time. I'm not sure why you want to add an increasing stacking cost to that.
At this point I'd be happy if they just reverted the cast time next PTS cycle and...see how that goes.
@Tonturri
Hardened Ward --> Healing Ward --> Rune Cage/Destructive Reach --> Mutagen --> Dodge --> Streak --> Hardened Ward --> Offense
Something like that.
Whereas today it's just Ward, Ward, Ward, Ward, HoT, Ward, CC, offense.
And I don't "want" to do anything with shields, honestly. But ZOS does and I think there are better solutions than the god-awful cast time. And they've already stated that they aren't reverting the cast time in PTS 4.2.1.0 -
hesobad✭✭✭✭Shield Fatigue is a good idea, or a cooldown. We have no cooldown abilities, and I would prefer shields have a cooldown and remain instant cast than have a cast timeAd Victoriam!0 -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭There is nothing to discuss and people asking for cost increase have no clue to how a sorc can be played.
Crit nerf is already big.7 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »I'd rather ZOS settle on how they want shields to work mechanically first - what should work against them, what shouldn't, etc, before we mess with costs and strength. It took them this long to make enchants (and poisons, I think?) proc properly against shields. I'm glad they're willing to do something, but let's not make like shields were strong enough to warrant nerfs this patch - they're just funky in functionality enough that they need to be standardized a bit. I definitely approve of the armor res thing, allowing enchants/whatever to proc against 'em and stuff (not fond of the crit change - shields still can't crit - but I'm willing to see where it goes).
Also, shields will have been nerfed for most magicka builds if the current PTS makes it to live (check sorc feedback thread for math), even if you remove the cast time. I'm not sure why you want to add an increasing stacking cost to that.
At this point I'd be happy if they just reverted the cast time next PTS cycle and...see how that goes.
@Tonturri
Hardened Ward --> Healing Ward --> Rune Cage/Destructive Reach --> Mutagen --> Dodge --> Streak --> Hardened Ward --> Offense
Something like that.
Whereas today it's just Ward, Ward, Ward, Ward, HoT, Ward, CC, offense.
And I don't "want" to do anything with shields, honestly. But ZOS does and I think there are better solutions than the god-awful cast time. And they've already stated that they aren't reverting the cast time in PTS 4.2.1.
I'm not sure what sorcs you're seeing, but I know I coulda sworn I saw Pelican (dueling tournament fellow) put out a video using nearly that exact thing - the first one. Mutagen too, due to the extra regen from maelstrom staff. I also used to run muta in place of Annulment. And nearly all sorcs use rune cage or reach - your 'ward x4, HoT (Where are sorcs getting room for a HoT in all that?), CC offense is a tad exaggerated, I think. And how is spamming a shield different from spamming any other defense?
Oh geez, really? You wouldn't happen to have a link to that? It really vexes me to see ZOS using flawed reasoning for their changes and then just refusing to even consider alternatives. "The cast time is staying, end of story." would honestly be very disheartening and..ridiculously stubborn of them.
Edit: ZOS just doesn't seem to realize how crippling a cast time is. They seem to see sorcs using dark deal 'despite' it's cast time and go "Oh look! THe cast time functions fine! Let's scatter around more cast times." Meanwhile no other class in the game uses any of their skills with a cast time, and sorcs only use DD because they have literally no other option.Edited by Tonturri on September 23, 2018 7:32PM0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is nothing to discuss and people asking for cost increase have no clue to how a sorc can be played.
Crit nerf is already big.
@Aedaryl I do have some idea how a sorc is played. My primary PvP character is a magsorc.
But that's neither here nor there.
The fact of the matter is that ZOS has stated, repeatedly, that they believe that damage shields need a significant rework because they are too powerful, in both PvP and PvE. Allowing crits against shields does nothing to address shields in PvE, which again, ZOS has gone on record multiple times and stated that they think it's a problem.
So if you're choosing to die on the hill of "shields don't need any changes other than allowing crit", more power to you, but I think it's a lost cause. Change is coming whether you like it or not.
I hope that the change that does come is more creative and less awful than the 1-second cast time, because I will absolutely stop playing my PvP magsorc if that change goes live. I think I could adapt to a cooldown or stacking cost increase, but the cast time makes the PvP magsorc completely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.2 -
Dr.NRG✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Simple proposal: revert the 1-second cast time on Conjured Ward and Annulment and replace it with Ward Fatigue (i.e., give it the Streak treatment).
If Shields are to be considered the roll-dodge analogue for magicka characters, it seems logical that the control used to keep it in check should be similar.
Scaling up the cost of shields cast within some window (say, double the cost if cast again within 4 seconds) prevents both shield stacking (a problem in PvP) and shield spamming (which is part of the reason healers "don't feel necessary" in PvE). I don't know what the appropriate timing or cost increase would be, that's just an example. Potentially the window should be something like 6-8 seconds to prevent shield stacking altogether, and perhaps the cost increase should be something more like 50% (which I believe is in line with Dodge Fatigue).
With Conjured Ward for instance, if the first cast has a cost of ~3500, a second cast within 4 seconds would cost ~7000, and another cast within 4 seconds of that would cost ~14000 (at a 50% increase that would be 3500, 5250 and 7875). In order to effectively solve the "problems" ZOS has identified, this would have to apply to both Conjured Ward and Annulment (e.g., casting Hardened Ward and then casting Harness Magicka within 4 seconds would apply the doubled cost to Harness Magicka).
This change would allow shields to continue to be used reactively to avoid one-shot mechanics in PvE and as a first line of defense in PvP. However, going beyond a single cast would have a crippling affect on sustain (and therefore DPS output) and on the ability to cast heals or use escape tools.
I could live with that. Seems fair and balanced.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Simple proposal: revert the 1-second cast time on Conjured Ward and Annulment and replace it with Ward Fatigue (i.e., give it the Streak treatment).
If Shields are to be considered the roll-dodge analogue for magicka characters, it seems logical that the control used to keep it in check should be similar.
Scaling up the cost of shields cast within some window (say, double the cost if cast again within 4 seconds) prevents both shield stacking (a problem in PvP) and shield spamming (which is part of the reason healers "don't feel necessary" in PvE). I don't know what the appropriate timing or cost increase would be, that's just an example. Potentially the window should be something like 6-8 seconds to prevent shield stacking altogether, and perhaps the cost increase should be something more like 50% (which I believe is in line with Dodge Fatigue).
With Conjured Ward for instance, if the first cast has a cost of ~3500, a second cast within 4 seconds would cost ~7000, and another cast within 4 seconds of that would cost ~14000 (at a 50% increase that would be 3500, 5250 and 7875). In order to effectively solve the "problems" ZOS has identified, this would have to apply to both Conjured Ward and Annulment (e.g., casting Hardened Ward and then casting Harness Magicka within 4 seconds would apply the doubled cost to Harness Magicka).
This change would allow shields to continue to be used reactively to avoid one-shot mechanics in PvE and as a first line of defense in PvP. However, going beyond a single cast would have a crippling affect on sustain (and therefore DPS output) and on the ability to cast heals or use escape tools.
I could live with that. Seems fair and balanced
I agree!
Although I wonder, stacking costs seems like such a simple solution ... why didn't ZOS think of it? Or, perhaps, they *did* think of it and found it lacking in their internal playtests?
Or maybe (tinfoil hat on), they've got some less awful change in their back pocket, they dropped the nuclear option cast-time change on us, and in a later PTS update they'll roll back to a less terrible change like this one. And to be clear, if a change like the one suggested here were in the PTS 4.2.0 patch notes, people would've gone ballistic over that as well. But it looks great when compared to a 1-second cast time.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.7 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
This accurately sums up my issues with ZOS at the moment. They seem to only feel obligated - barely - to share their reasoning behind things. They don't seem to care if said reasoning is flat out wrong in every conceivable way and just plow ahead no matter what anyone else says, and we end up trying to 'compromise' with them - as if they're right about something and they're not. It's not 'I think your logic is sound but I think your execution is off'. It's 'you're totally wrong but too stubborn to change, so I'm going to try to minimize how much abuse the rest of us take'.
Which is absolutely ridiculous. We need to hold them to a higher standard.Edited by Tonturri on September 24, 2018 9:52PM0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
This accurately sums up my issues with ZOS at the moment. They seem to only feel obligated - barely - to share their reasoning behind things. They don't seem to care if said reasoning is flat out wrong in every conceivable way and just plow ahead no matter what anyone else says, and we end up trying to 'compromise' with them - as if they're right about something and they're not. It's not 'I think your logic is sound but I think your execution is off'. It's 'you're totally wrong but too stubborn to change, so I'm going to try to minimize how much abuse the rest of us take'.
Which is absolutely ridiculous. We need to hold them to a higher standard.
This is soooo true. We give in to a lesser of two evils based on a false assumption. There really isn't anything wrong with shield in the current form. They just melt in less that 1-2 GCD and require LOS to even keep up most of the time. Other classes have better defenses than shield in PVP, it absolute asinine that ZOS chooses to nerf shield when tank meta is a thing.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.
That's the point. There shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other.
It's a legit question. You suggested one class to pay a scaling cost on their main defensive mechanic which already is paying a very high scaling cost of their main mobility skill. No other class has this mechanic at all. What does the sorcerer do so well above the other specs to warrant such a distinction? It isn;t sustain. It isn't damage. It's isn't healing. It isn;t more abilities.
Are sorcerer players content to play with disadvantageous mechanics because the alternative is worse?Edited by Joy_Division on September 24, 2018 10:48PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.
That's the point. There shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other.
It's a legit question. You suggested one class to pay a scaling cost on their main defensive mechanic which already is paying a very high scaling cost of their main mobility skill. No other class has this mechanic at all. What does the sorcerer do so well above the other specs to warrant such a distinction? It isn;t sustain. It isn't damage. It's isn't healing. It isn;t more abilities.
No joke.
Damage: RNG (proc)
Mobility: Stacking cost
Defensive: Delayed
What other class has these penalties? Its just stupid.2 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
One stops you from taking damage all together the other hides you but if you walk in a ground effect or being in range of an AoE you take full damage.Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
Chaos Death-Scale: Shadow Knight
Tanks-With-Sap-Essence: Dark Mage
Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master
For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.
That's the point. There shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other.
It's a legit question. You suggested one class to pay a scaling cost on their main defensive mechanic which already is paying a very high scaling cost of their main mobility skill. No other class has this mechanic at all. What does the sorcerer do so well above the other specs to warrant such a distinction? It isn;t sustain. It isn't damage. It's isn't healing. It isn;t more abilities.
Well I disagree. I don't think it's a legit question. Or at least, you're asking it in the wrong place.
ZOS has spoken and they believe shields need to be nerfed. I'm merely proposing what I see as a more palatable change.
And I would say that the latter part of your response misses the point in two ways. First, cast time on shields obviously doesn't only affect sorcs. It affects all LA users. The same would be true of scaling up the cost on multiple casts. And second, and this is related to the first point, the distinction of sorcs is that they can stack Annulment with Conjured Ward.0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.
That's the point. There shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other.
It's a legit question. You suggested one class to pay a scaling cost on their main defensive mechanic which already is paying a very high scaling cost of their main mobility skill. No other class has this mechanic at all. What does the sorcerer do so well above the other specs to warrant such a distinction? It isn;t sustain. It isn't damage. It's isn't healing. It isn;t more abilities.
Well I disagree. I don't think it's a legit question. Or at least, you're asking it in the wrong place.
ZOS has spoken and they believe shields need to be nerfed. I'm merely proposing what I see as a more palatable change.
And I would say that the latter part of your response misses the point in two ways. First, cast time on shields obviously doesn't only affect sorcs. It affects all LA users. The same would be true of scaling up the cost on multiple casts. And second, and this is related to the first point, the distinction of sorcs is that they can stack Annulment with Conjured Ward.
And there lies the problem. Shields don't need a nerf. ZOS makes a lot of bonehead changes for no reason. I have yet to hear a single shield nerf reason from ZOS that makes any sense. If anything shield need a better way to deal with 1VX.Edited by bardx86 on September 24, 2018 11:02PM0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.
That's the point. There shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other.
It's a legit question. You suggested one class to pay a scaling cost on their main defensive mechanic which already is paying a very high scaling cost of their main mobility skill. No other class has this mechanic at all. What does the sorcerer do so well above the other specs to warrant such a distinction? It isn;t sustain. It isn't damage. It's isn't healing. It isn;t more abilities.
Well I disagree. I don't think it's a legit question. Or at least, you're asking it in the wrong place.
ZOS has spoken and they believe shields need to be nerfed. I'm merely proposing what I see as a more palatable change.
And I would say that the latter part of your response misses the point in two ways. First, cast time on shields obviously doesn't only affect sorcs. It affects all LA users. The same would be true of scaling up the cost on multiple casts. And second, and this is related to the first point, the distinction of sorcs is that they can stack Annulment with Conjured Ward.
And there lies the problem. Shields don't need a nerf. ZOS makes a lot of bonehead changes for no reason. I have yet to hear a single shield nerf reason from ZOS that makes any sense. If anything shield need a better way to deal with 1VX.
I disagree.
I do think shields need an adjustment. My primary PvP character is a magsorc and I can tank an absolutely preposterous amount of damage with stacked shields. I can venture right into the fray in all light armor, shield through a huge amount of damage, and then CC and unleash a pretty powerful timed burst. I'm not even a good PvP player and I successfully 1vX all the time on a magsorc but struggle to do so on other builds.
And in PvE, on any magicka DPS, I can run just about any non-raid content in the game and simply shield spam through incoming damage while my HoTs bring me back to full health.
But I don't agree with the 1-second cast time. To me, the problems (shield stacking and shield spamming) are pretty minor and can be fixed with far less drastic changes.0 -
bardx86✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.
That's the point. There shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other.
It's a legit question. You suggested one class to pay a scaling cost on their main defensive mechanic which already is paying a very high scaling cost of their main mobility skill. No other class has this mechanic at all. What does the sorcerer do so well above the other specs to warrant such a distinction? It isn;t sustain. It isn't damage. It's isn't healing. It isn;t more abilities.
Well I disagree. I don't think it's a legit question. Or at least, you're asking it in the wrong place.
ZOS has spoken and they believe shields need to be nerfed. I'm merely proposing what I see as a more palatable change.
And I would say that the latter part of your response misses the point in two ways. First, cast time on shields obviously doesn't only affect sorcs. It affects all LA users. The same would be true of scaling up the cost on multiple casts. And second, and this is related to the first point, the distinction of sorcs is that they can stack Annulment with Conjured Ward.
And there lies the problem. Shields don't need a nerf. ZOS makes a lot of bonehead changes for no reason. I have yet to hear a single shield nerf reason from ZOS that makes any sense. If anything shield need a better way to deal with 1VX.
I disagree.
I do think shields need an adjustment. My primary PvP character is a magsorc and I can tank an absolutely preposterous amount of damage with stacked shields. I can venture right into the fray in all light armor, shield through a huge amount of damage, and then CC and unleash a pretty powerful timed burst. I'm not even a good PvP player and I successfully 1vX all the time on a magsorc but struggle to do so on other builds.
And in PvE, on any magicka DPS, I can run just about any non-raid content in the game and simply shield spam through incoming damage while my HoTs bring me back to full health.
But I don't agree with the 1-second cast time. To me, the problems (shield stacking and shield spamming) are pretty minor and can be fixed with far less drastic changes.
Well we are going to have to agree to disagree. Every class can mitigate a lot of damage in PVP, I'm not sure why Sorcs should be denied that. 1v1 sorc vs an equality skill player on other classes like NB's DK's Warden and even templars could go either way. Sorcs are not at some great advantage because of shields. In fact vs some of these class our damage is so bad we are in the disadvantage. 1VX we just suck. Adding a cast time or cost increase to shield is just a bad idea. Kill stacking if you must, but you have to add some other type of defense at the same time to compensate.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nvm.Edited by Joy_Division on September 25, 2018 2:34AMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.0 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is not a bad idea to have escalating cost to spamming shields, but I hate the extreme escalating cost of Streak so it would need to be not nearly as bad.
I'm not a fan of trying to control when players use skills though either way. I wish they had just balanced everything so you could use it however you want, like spam defenses all you want to survive but you won't be able to damage anything to kill it or spam damage all you like but you'll risk survival against anything also spamming damage or some hybrid.
I prefer encouraging hybrid builds rather than the "unholy trinity" max out tank/dps/healer stats.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.
That's the point. There shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other.
It's a legit question. You suggested one class to pay a scaling cost on their main defensive mechanic which already is paying a very high scaling cost of their main mobility skill. No other class has this mechanic at all. What does the sorcerer do so well above the other specs to warrant such a distinction? It isn;t sustain. It isn't damage. It's isn't healing. It isn;t more abilities.
Are sorcerer players content to play with disadvantageous mechanics because the alternative is worse?
I'd like to address this again because I feel something really key was missed here ...
Roll-dodge already has Dodge Fatigue. Why does stamina have to deal with escalating cost on their primary defense mechanism, but magicka does not?
So, to your point "there shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other", well, there already is. Why can my magsorc spam Hardened Ward/Healing Ward/Harness Magicka over and over but my stamplar is drained after three or four dodges?
Specifically to NBs and Cloak ... to be honest, I've never really played that style. My stamblade PvP days were primarily brawler builds and my magblades were bombers. So I'm not really sure what does or doesn't need to be balanced as far as Cloak goes as a defensive mechanism.0 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.
That's the point. There shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other.
It's a legit question. You suggested one class to pay a scaling cost on their main defensive mechanic which already is paying a very high scaling cost of their main mobility skill. No other class has this mechanic at all. What does the sorcerer do so well above the other specs to warrant such a distinction? It isn;t sustain. It isn't damage. It's isn't healing. It isn;t more abilities.
Are sorcerer players content to play with disadvantageous mechanics because the alternative is worse?
I'd like to address this again because I feel something really key was missed here ...
Roll-dodge already has Dodge Fatigue. Why does stamina have to deal with escalating cost on their primary defense mechanism, but magicka does not?
So, to your point "there shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other", well, there already is. Why can my magsorc spam Hardened Ward/Healing Ward/Harness Magicka over and over but my stamplar is drained after three or four dodges?
Specifically to NBs and Cloak ... to be honest, I've never really played that style. My stamblade PvP days were primarily brawler builds and my magblades were bombers. So I'm not really sure what does or doesn't need to be balanced as far as Cloak goes as a defensive mechanism.
Dodge roll is not a class ability. Everyone has it. Though I won't speak for what @Joy_Division meant, he compared a (one of) main /class/ defense to a main /class/ defense. Class defining. Whatever you'd like to call it, I don't want to debate what is and isn't considered a class defining ability or 'primary class defense'.
Edited by Tonturri on September 25, 2018 5:55AM0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.
That's the point. There shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other.
It's a legit question. You suggested one class to pay a scaling cost on their main defensive mechanic which already is paying a very high scaling cost of their main mobility skill. No other class has this mechanic at all. What does the sorcerer do so well above the other specs to warrant such a distinction? It isn;t sustain. It isn't damage. It's isn't healing. It isn;t more abilities.
Are sorcerer players content to play with disadvantageous mechanics because the alternative is worse?
I'd like to address this again because I feel something really key was missed here ...
Roll-dodge already has Dodge Fatigue. Why does stamina have to deal with escalating cost on their primary defense mechanism, but magicka does not?
So, to your point "there shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other", well, there already is. Why can my magsorc spam Hardened Ward/Healing Ward/Harness Magicka over and over but my stamplar is drained after three or four dodges?
Specifically to NBs and Cloak ... to be honest, I've never really played that style. My stamblade PvP days were primarily brawler builds and my magblades were bombers. So I'm not really sure what does or doesn't need to be balanced as far as Cloak goes as a defensive mechanism.
Dodge roll is not a class ability. Everyone has it. Though I won't speak for what @Joy_Division meant, he compared a (one of) main /class/ defense to a main /class/ defense. Class defining. Whatever you'd like to call it, I don't want to debate what is and isn't considered a class defining ability or 'primary class defense'.
Everyone has access to Annulment, too ...0 -
Tonturri✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Why should a sorc's 3rd cast of a ward cost 14000 magicka while a NB's 3rd cast of cloak 3780?
@Joy_Division why should Cloak be instant cast when shields have a cast time?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like the question is productive. Or rather, you're barking up the wrong tree. Maybe ZOS will just flat-out revert the cast-time change but I seriously doubt it.
And anyway, as I said, the cost scaling and time window could be anything, but I think escalating cost is far less crippling than the cast time. I will absolutely stop playing my magsorc in PvP if the shield cast time change goes live, but I think I could work with a cooldown or escalating cost.
That's the point. There shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other.
It's a legit question. You suggested one class to pay a scaling cost on their main defensive mechanic which already is paying a very high scaling cost of their main mobility skill. No other class has this mechanic at all. What does the sorcerer do so well above the other specs to warrant such a distinction? It isn;t sustain. It isn't damage. It's isn't healing. It isn;t more abilities.
Are sorcerer players content to play with disadvantageous mechanics because the alternative is worse?
I'd like to address this again because I feel something really key was missed here ...
Roll-dodge already has Dodge Fatigue. Why does stamina have to deal with escalating cost on their primary defense mechanism, but magicka does not?
So, to your point "there shouldn't be some special mechanic applied to one and not the other", well, there already is. Why can my magsorc spam Hardened Ward/Healing Ward/Harness Magicka over and over but my stamplar is drained after three or four dodges?
Specifically to NBs and Cloak ... to be honest, I've never really played that style. My stamblade PvP days were primarily brawler builds and my magblades were bombers. So I'm not really sure what does or doesn't need to be balanced as far as Cloak goes as a defensive mechanism.
Dodge roll is not a class ability. Everyone has it. Though I won't speak for what @Joy_Division meant, he compared a (one of) main /class/ defense to a main /class/ defense. Class defining. Whatever you'd like to call it, I don't want to debate what is and isn't considered a class defining ability or 'primary class defense'.
Everyone has access to Annulment, too ...
And only sorc has Hardened Ward and Bolt Escape, one of which already has a stacking cost.
This is incorrect. You can consider them so (and I can consider an apple an orange), but they're not. It doesn't match up that way. Shields are not dodge roll and treating them like they are is flawed.If Shields are to be considered the roll-dodge analogue for magicka characters
And this is how sorcerers are caught up in the mad nerf-rage towards shields. Definitely feel free to change (in a way that may be a combination of nerfs and buffs) shields. But people need to remember that everyone uses shields to different degrees, and are hurt to differing to varying degrees by nerfs to the mechanic.
Edited by Tonturri on September 25, 2018 6:08AM0 -
Gnozo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cost increase after 4 seconds. Wow.
In pvp i need to recast my shields every 2 seconds even when my ward is 12k. So after 10 seconds of fight i am out of magicka. GG.
That shields can be crittet now is already enough of a nerf. One crit and your shield is gone due to having resistences now and in light armor you dont have much resist.
Zenimax needs to stop balancing pve and pvp the same way. Cost increase or cast time doesnt work in pvp.0 -
Iki✭✭✭Is there any other sorc-abilities that should also get stacking cost-increase? Why settle with just bolt escape and ward... Mages fury? They say sorcs just spam fury in battlegrounds for the win, not acceptable. Need stacking cost-increase. Overload? Isn`t it clearly overpowered if sorcs can spam them hard-hitting lightning-balls and maybe even kill someone, need stacking cost-increase. Rune-cage? Encase? But of course.
Or perhaps it would be easier to just add it as passive to each sorc skill-tree: "casting any ability again within 4 seconds doubles abilitys cost".
That would teach them sorcs to not just mindlessly spam skills but git gud and L2P instead.0