Narvuntien wrote: »Good point.
I think perhaps just move the damage they lost from the world in ruin changes onto the abilities.
and leave the cost reduction on it now.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »Before Talking about my concerns, I wanted to tell that I appreciate the balance team actually trying to make stamDK-poison synergy a bit more meaningful, but its done in such a way that it feels like rubbing salt on the wound.
Some of you , probably including the combat balance team, are wondering why stamDKs are not happy to a ''buff'' that is so huge on paper. I mean %25 cost reduction, but its received as a meme more than a buff. I'm one of those who got mad while reading the patch notes, I know any change is better than no change when you're a stamDk main, but the lack of love and understanding is apparent in those patch notes.
There are many reasons for why we feel this way about World in Ruin , so let me begin.
1. There are not enough poison abilities.
This is by far the biggest reason why stamDks, including myself are just laughing at the World in ruin changes. This is the 4th sustain passive you added to Dks now and this time, its basically meaningless because we don't have the tools to make use of this passive..
The issue was never sustain, it was lack of tools in our hands to create a different playstyle.
2.Lack of identity/synergy within the class
Stamina Dk is a poison based melee class, and it has access to 6 poison abilities,. Only 2 of those abilities are actually melee, the other 4 come from weapon skills(3 from bow and trapping webs from undaunted) and everyone else also has access to them.
It seems a lot on paper, definitely enough to make a strong build, but thats sadly only on paper.
SDK now doesn't have passives that amp up poison damage, the two skills it has access to are dots that are weaker than bleeds, the other 3 come from bow skill line, which goes against the class identity completely.
You just made ability ranges consistent for magDks with the elder dragon changes , congratz on that good change . However stamDKs needs to use lethal arrow, poison injection, acid spray, trapping webs, if they want to utilize the new world in ruin. Those abilities are all ranged and Dk dots+corrosive armor are melee abilities, this completely breaks the synergy and makes everything inconsistent.
Problem here is that other classes have buffs that are much stronger and general meanwhile we get passives that don't make any difference., how would stamsorcs feel if their damage and cost reduction passives only worked on hurricane? That is exactly the case for stamDk right now, with noxious break being clunky as hell, the WiR only really matters for venomous claws, and claws is already the cheapest dot in the game(excluding the free axe bleed, which is broken but thats a discussion for another day).
3. Existing Abilities need fixing before everything else
Abilities like noxious breath, acid spray, trapping webs are still very clunky and weak for PvP use, even for casual PvP.
Poison injection and venomous claws are ''fine'', they are still weaker than bleeds but thats a problem about bleeds being overpowered rather than poison being weak.
I would go on forever about this, I would love to give suggestions on how to make this better, but it seems like you guys only want to hear about problems and solve them yourselves, so here are my problems as a stamina Dk main.
If you've actually bothered to read this far, thank you. Try to emphasis on the fact that we are STAMINA Dks, and no, that does not mean we want to be tanks, and I do really hope that you come up with better changes, cause I know it can be done so easily , you only need to have the same passion for the class as we do. Every class deserves to have a diverse playstyle with unique perks. StamDK is no exception.
Edit: Tagging @ZOS_RobGarrett , @ZOS_Wrobel , for them to see it.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »@Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.
The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »@Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.
The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again
It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »@Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.
The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again
It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.
Marshall1289 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »@Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.
The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again
It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.
Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »Narvuntien wrote: »Good point.
I think perhaps just move the damage they lost from the world in ruin changes onto the abilities.
and leave the cost reduction on it now.
Trapping webs should work a little faster(delay is fine but its harder to land than sub assault, talk about risk and reward ) and the synergy should be working easier imho, requiring targetting makes it very clunky. I don't know what to do with trapping webs but it definitely needs some work to be viable.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »Narvuntien wrote: »Good point.
I think perhaps just move the damage they lost from the world in ruin changes onto the abilities.
and leave the cost reduction on it now.
Trapping webs should work a little faster(delay is fine but its harder to land than sub assault, talk about risk and reward ) and the synergy should be working easier imho, requiring targetting makes it very clunky. I don't know what to do with trapping webs but it definitely needs some work to be viable.
This is a great idea!
Trapping Webs should work like Inevitable Deto and SUDDENLY many problems of StamDK would be fixed. And since it´s an underused skill which can be used by all, it does not even create balancing problems.
JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »while i agree with you fully i disagree on
"Problem here is that other classes have buffs that are much stronger and general meanwhile we get passives that don't make any difference."
look at piercing cold on warden
... its a damage increasing passive that increases damage of:
one warden skill
one warden ultimate
Boom! amazing.
and the rest? all in destro staff.. and even there again its... two skills one ultimate. In effect its max of three effective skills and one effective ultimate at any given time... there is 0 customization and differentiation possible...
StamDKs share this unlucky fate.
and its bad. Very bad.
As a matter of fact its why i have even my nord DK as mag (even if they aint that powerful) just so its more fun than ... two abilities that are both just... dot-ups...
Stamdks need... some nice stamina spammina... some love... some poisonous usefulness...
many had good ideas before.. but it seems ZOS is not trying to make the game more fun. Its trying to make its more "X in line with Y" thus bland and boring.
ZOS... please change your ways...
try for once to make the game more fun not less for other classes...
Give our StamDKs, who are much fun on paper, no fun in practice, some love... season them... dont let them stay so bland...
Ragnarock41 wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »@Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.
The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again
It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.
Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.
He has to get in melee range to apply venomous claws/noxious breath anyways.
I'm not against the idea of playing a bow, but the state of bow in PvP for non-nightblades is obvious, not to mention the fact that Dk is a melee class.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »@Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.
The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again
It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.
Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.
He has to get in melee range to apply venomous claws/noxious breath anyways.
I'm not against the idea of playing a bow, but the state of bow in PvP for non-nightblades is obvious, not to mention the fact that Dk is a melee class.
Dk is only a melee class because players associate it with the Dk. Does it matter which skills I cast while in melee range? Not really. I find it refreshing to play something else and it definitely adds some new identity to the class. Sustain is really good on it.
JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »while i agree with you fully i disagree on
"Problem here is that other classes have buffs that are much stronger and general meanwhile we get passives that don't make any difference."
look at piercing cold on warden
... its a damage increasing passive that increases damage of:
one warden skill
one warden ultimate
Boom! amazing.
and the rest? all in destro staff.. and even there again its... two skills one ultimate. In effect its max of three effective skills and one effective ultimate at any given time... there is 0 customization and differentiation possible...
StamDKs share this unlucky fate.
and its bad. Very bad.
As a matter of fact its why i have even my nord DK as mag (even if they aint that powerful) just so its more fun than ... two abilities that are both just... dot-ups...
Stamdks need... some nice stamina spammina... some love... some poisonous usefulness...
many had good ideas before.. but it seems ZOS is not trying to make the game more fun. Its trying to make its more "X in line with Y" thus bland and boring.
ZOS... please change your ways...
try for once to make the game more fun not less for other classes...
Give our StamDKs, who are much fun on paper, no fun in practice, some love... season them... dont let them stay so bland...
Ragnarock41 wrote: »@Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.
The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »@Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.
The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
Hey thanks for posting it.... I don't get the reasoning behind it changing to a cost reduction over damage. My small two cents: to break up the monotony of fire and ash skills, it would be awesome to see more poison DK skills, not less. Imagine how popular they would become.
OrphanHelgen wrote: »You are spot on with acid spray, trapping webs and noxious breath having a clunky animation and feeling when used. Specially trapping webs maybe the most, it's a more cast time than other skills, and same animation as fire rune. It can also only proc synergy on range, which is 99% a magicka user and it will scale of their crit and penetration. The skill isn't a dot, which is what a stam dk invest in cp usually.
Stam dk was best when maelstrom flurry gave 3k wpn dmg and standard of might had higher damage. Then maelstrom weapons got nerfed and stam dk was best due to heavy attacks consumed offbalance, and had good scaling with molten armaments.
It's not strongest atm. It has least cleave and those who say stam dk is highest single target, is simply wrong.
Standard of might and ven claw, doesn't make up for the passive stats other classes have. And as long as relequen, ravager and selene is absolutely bis, it's the set that give them dps, not their skills and playstyle.
Templar benefit more due to their wpn dmg passives, and ravager give high wpn dmg.
Sorc and warden benefit more due to their physical dmg increase and implotion.
I won't mention nb here.
Stam dk have 50% more dmg with poison status effect, which is really nice if it actually did something.
I guess the cost reduction is a very good change for dk bow users in pvp, but for pve nothing changed sadly.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »Before Talking about my concerns, I wanted to tell that I appreciate the balance team actually trying to make stamDK-poison synergy a bit more meaningful, but its done in such a way that it feels like rubbing salt on the wound.
Some of you , probably including the combat balance team, are wondering why stamDKs are not happy to a ''buff'' that is so huge on paper. I mean %25 cost reduction, but its received as a meme more than a buff. I'm one of those who got mad while reading the patch notes, I know any change is better than no change when you're a stamDk main, but the lack of love and understanding is apparent in those patch notes.
There are many reasons for why we feel this way about World in Ruin , so let me begin.
1. There are not enough poison abilities.
This is by far the biggest reason why stamDks, including myself are just laughing at the World in ruin changes. This is the 4th sustain passive you added to Dks now and this time, its basically meaningless because we don't have the tools to make use of this passive..
The issue was never sustain, it was lack of tools in our hands to create a different playstyle.
2.Lack of identity/synergy within the class
Stamina Dk is a poison based melee class, and it has access to 6 poison abilities,. Only 2 of those abilities are actually melee, the other 4 come from weapon skills(3 from bow and trapping webs from undaunted) and everyone else also has access to them.
It seems a lot on paper, definitely enough to make a strong build, but thats sadly only on paper.
SDK now doesn't have passives that amp up poison damage, the two skills it has access to are dots that are weaker than bleeds, the other 3 come from bow skill line, which goes against the class identity completely.
You just made ability ranges consistent for magDks with the elder dragon changes , congratz on that good change . However stamDKs needs to use lethal arrow, poison injection, acid spray, trapping webs, if they want to utilize the new world in ruin. Those abilities are all ranged and Dk dots+corrosive armor are melee abilities, this completely breaks the synergy and makes everything inconsistent.
Problem here is that other classes have buffs that are much stronger and general meanwhile we get passives that don't make any difference., how would stamsorcs feel if their damage and cost reduction passives only worked on hurricane? That is exactly the case for stamDk right now, with noxious break being clunky as hell, the WiR only really matters for venomous claws, and claws is already the cheapest dot in the game(excluding the free axe bleed, which is broken but thats a discussion for another day).
3. Existing Abilities need fixing before everything else
Abilities like noxious breath, acid spray, trapping webs are still very clunky and weak for PvP use, even for casual PvP.
Poison injection and venomous claws are ''fine'', they are still weaker than bleeds but thats a problem about bleeds being overpowered rather than poison being weak.
I would go on forever about this, I would love to give suggestions on how to make this better, but it seems like you guys only want to hear about problems and solve them yourselves, so here are my problems as a stamina Dk main.
If you've actually bothered to read this far, thank you. Try to emphasis on the fact that we are STAMINA Dks, and no, that does not mean we want to be tanks, and I do really hope that you come up with better changes, cause I know it can be done so easily , you only need to have the same passion for the class as we do. Every class deserves to have a diverse playstyle with unique perks. StamDK is no exception.
Edit: Tagging @ZOS_RobGarrett , @ZOS_Wrobel , for them to see it.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »@Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.
The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again
It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.
Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.
He has to get in melee range to apply venomous claws/noxious breath anyways.
I'm not against the idea of playing a bow, but the state of bow in PvP for non-nightblades is obvious, not to mention the fact that Dk is a melee class.
Dk is only a melee class because players associate it with the Dk. Does it matter which skills I cast while in melee range? Not really. I find it refreshing to play something else and it definitely adds some new identity to the class. Sustain is really good on it.
No I'm sorry but I disagree %100. We do not associate the class with Melee . The class is clearly designed with melee combat in mind first. PvE and PvP are two very different things. I admit that you have a point for PvE, bow/bow was never really good for PvE and I appreciate it being viable, but once again, PvE and PvP are two entirely different things. PoisonDk can be viable for PvE while not being viable for PvP, just like how stamden is god tier for PvP while being meh for PvE.
Venomous claws, noxious breath, corrosive armor, take flight, are all abilities that work ONLY in melee range,(take flight is a gapcloser so still intended for melee). We don't have a cloak, we don't have the mobility or escape tools, we don't have mark or an assassin's bow. We don't have tools like dark deal or shade to kite more effectively. Battle roar rewards you for being agressive and spamming ults. Even noxious breath has extremely tiny range proving that it is supposed to be used at Melee range. We don't have the things that will make a bow gank build.
Because stamDK is designed as a melee class. Its not that we see it as a melee class, its LITERALLY a melee class.
But sure, lets act like we are no longer discount stamblades, because once again somebody found a way to do good enough dps on a dummy with stamDK again. Like how heavy attack builds were used as an argument against this before.
Ragnarock41 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »Marshall1289 wrote: »Ragnarock41 wrote: »@Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.
The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again
It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.
Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.
He has to get in melee range to apply venomous claws/noxious breath anyways.
I'm not against the idea of playing a bow, but the state of bow in PvP for non-nightblades is obvious, not to mention the fact that Dk is a melee class.
Dk is only a melee class because players associate it with the Dk. Does it matter which skills I cast while in melee range? Not really. I find it refreshing to play something else and it definitely adds some new identity to the class. Sustain is really good on it.
No I'm sorry but I disagree %100. We do not associate the class with Melee . The class is clearly designed with melee combat in mind first. PvE and PvP are two very different things. I admit that you have a point for PvE, bow/bow was never really good for PvE and I appreciate it being viable, but once again, PvE and PvP are two entirely different things. PoisonDk can be viable for PvE while not being viable for PvP, just like how stamden is god tier for PvP while being meh for PvE.
Venomous claws, noxious breath, corrosive armor, take flight, are all abilities that work ONLY in melee range,(take flight is a gapcloser so still intended for melee). We don't have a cloak, we don't have the mobility or escape tools, we don't have mark or an assassin's bow. We don't have tools like dark deal or shade to kite more effectively. Battle roar rewards you for being agressive and spamming ults. Even noxious breath has extremely tiny range proving that it is supposed to be used at Melee range. We don't have the things that will make a bow gank build.
Because stamDK is designed as a melee class. Its not that we see it as a melee class, its LITERALLY a melee class.
But sure, lets act like we are no longer discount stamblades, because once again somebody found a way to do good enough dps on a dummy with stamDK again. Like how heavy attack builds were used as an argument against this before.
No need to get this upset, I was simply pointing out that I like the pve bow/bow playstyle. I agree that stam dk needs more identity, especially in pvp you basically feel like a weaker mag dk with your bars crowded with weapon abilities since you can't sustain your magicka with all the skills that cost magicka for you.
Noxious breath is fairly pathetic in pvp, it doesn't hit half the time, the dot is pointless. Even surprise attack puts on a longer duration of fracture and more damage up front than breath over the whole duration, plus major armor buffs. Venomous claw also is a pretty boring skill, doesn't do much besides good poison damage.
Point is: stam dk needs better alternatives in Form of stamina morphs. Don't get me wrong, the cost reduction and melee range increase are very nice! I tested it in duels and the new veteran arena and you really feel it. But this doesn't change the fact that stam dks lack class-based damage options. Same holds for stamsorcs. Stamplars, stamdens and stamblades hit very hard on the pts, and stam dk and stamsorc are very far behind.
I simply dont find a reason to play stam dk in pvp, because other classes simply are better, and if I want to play a dk, I can go mag dk: better healing, better range if needed, better sustain.
Toc de Malsvi wrote: »I didn't see it mentioned but World In Ruin isn't working with Trapping Webs and it should be.
What if Noxious Breath increased poison damage like Engulfing Flames increases fire damage? That might make it a bit more useful in DPS rotations, as the damage itself is negligable and Major Fracture is redundant in most situations.Ragnarock41 wrote: »1. There are not enough poison abilities.
What if Noxious Breath increased poison damage like Engulfing Flames increases fire damage? That might make it a bit more useful in DPS rotations, as the damage itself is negligable and Major Fracture is redundant in most situations.Ragnarock41 wrote: »1. There are not enough poison abilities.
It'll probably be easier to convince ZOS of such a change than add entirely new poison skills, like a stamina whip..
Mangeli200194 wrote: »I recently fell (back) in love again with my dk and sure is very weak, gets screwed by ultidumps but I don't really care. Usually if I run into the usual stamsorc /stamden helicopters I turtle up since on a slow dk they run circles around me but always lack the damage to kill me(by themselves)
Still fun 2 play and its funny 2 see how many people r getting carried in Pvp by stamsorc /stamden helicopter builds atm
What if Noxious Breath increased poison damage like Engulfing Flames increases fire damage? That might make it a bit more useful in DPS rotations, as the damage itself is negligable and Major Fracture is redundant in most situations.
John_Falstaff wrote: »What if Noxious Breath increased poison damage like Engulfing Flames increases fire damage? That might make it a bit more useful in DPS rotations, as the damage itself is negligable and Major Fracture is redundant in most situations.
I don't think there are enough poison abilities in the game to warrant that. Everyone and their dog is doing fire damage nowadays, stamina DK doesn't have any synergy with anything else in that regard. Plus status effects given by poison/disease aren't as good as status effects from elemental damage.
Don't forget that new elder dragon increases range by 2m for: reverse slice, onslaught, pierce armor, low slash, reverb, blood craze. This will be nice in the new speedy gonzalez PvP world.
Acid spray is easy to use in PvP (unlike noxious), but it is only useful for asylum bow or as a NB killer (that's being nerfed but will still be one of the best anti-cloak tools imo).
My 2h/bow stamDK will be more effective in murkmire than before, but it wasn't that effective before. I think the dodge roll nerf will hurt medium armor a lot in PvP.