ZOS, Lets talk about poison damage/abilities and World in Ruin rework for a moment.

Ragnarock41
Ragnarock41
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Before Talking about my concerns, I wanted to tell that I appreciate the balance team actually trying to make stamDK-poison synergy a bit more meaningful, but its done in such a way that it feels like rubbing salt on the wound.

Some of you , probably including the combat balance team, are wondering why stamDKs are not happy to a ''buff'' that is so huge on paper. I mean %25 cost reduction, but its received as a meme more than a buff. I'm one of those who got mad while reading the patch notes, I know any change is better than no change when you're a stamDk main, but the lack of love and understanding is apparent in those patch notes.

There are many reasons for why we feel this way about World in Ruin , so let me begin.

1. There are not enough poison abilities.

This is by far the biggest reason why stamDks, including myself are just laughing at the World in ruin changes. This is the 4th sustain passive you added to Dks now and this time, its basically meaningless because we don't have the tools to make use of this passive..

The issue was never sustain, it was lack of tools in our hands to create a different playstyle.

2.Lack of identity/synergy within the class

Stamina Dk is a poison based melee class, and it has access to 6 poison abilities,. Only 2 of those abilities are actually melee, the other 4 come from weapon skills(3 from bow and trapping webs from undaunted) and everyone else also has access to them.

It seems a lot on paper, definitely enough to make a strong build, but thats sadly only on paper.

SDK now doesn't have passives that amp up poison damage, the two skills it has access to are dots that are weaker than bleeds, the other 3 come from bow skill line, which goes against the class identity completely.

You just made ability ranges consistent for magDks with the elder dragon changes , congratz on that good change . However stamDKs needs to use lethal arrow, poison injection, acid spray, trapping webs, if they want to utilize the new world in ruin. Those abilities are all ranged and Dk dots+corrosive armor are melee abilities, this completely breaks the synergy and makes everything inconsistent.

Problem here is that other classes have buffs that are much stronger and general meanwhile we get passives that don't make any difference., how would stamsorcs feel if their damage and cost reduction passives only worked on hurricane? That is exactly the case for stamDk right now, with noxious break being clunky as hell, the WiR only really matters for venomous claws, and claws is already the cheapest dot in the game(excluding the free axe bleed, which is broken but thats a discussion for another day).


3. Existing Abilities need fixing before everything else

Abilities like noxious breath, acid spray, trapping webs are still very clunky and weak for PvP use, even for casual PvP.

Poison injection and venomous claws are ''fine'', they are still weaker than bleeds but thats a problem about bleeds being overpowered rather than poison being weak.




I would go on forever about this, I would love to give suggestions on how to make this better, but it seems like you guys only want to hear about problems and solve them yourselves, so here are my problems as a stamina Dk main.

If you've actually bothered to read this far, thank you. Try to emphasis on the fact that we are STAMINA Dks, and no, that does not mean we want to be tanks, and I do really hope that you come up with better changes, cause I know it can be done so easily , you only need to have the same passion for the class as we do. Every class deserves to have a diverse playstyle with unique perks. StamDK is no exception.



Edit: Tagging @ZOS_RobGarrett , @ZOS_Wrobel , for them to see it.
Edited by Ragnarock41 on September 23, 2018 2:27AM
  • Narvuntien
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    Good point.

    I think perhaps just move the damage they lost from the world in ruin changes onto the abilities.

    and leave the cost reduction on it now.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Narvuntien wrote: »
    Good point.

    I think perhaps just move the damage they lost from the world in ruin changes onto the abilities.

    and leave the cost reduction on it now.

    I personally believe just buffing up weapon abilities would further increase the damage gap between stamDk and every other stamina class(since they already have passives increasing tooltips but stamDK does not have any), however I would love to see trapping webs and acid spray improved to make them viable options for all classes.. Its just that stamDK lacks behind all classes when it comes to damage output, and this is entirely the fault of lack of passives. Combustion and WiR are supposed to be damage passives for the class, not sustain.


    Trapping webs should work a little faster(delay is fine but its harder to land than sub assault, talk about risk and reward :/ ) and the synergy should be working easier imho, requiring targetting makes it very clunky. I don't know what to do with trapping webs but it definitely needs some work to be viable.

    As for acid spray , it suffers from the ''Noxious breath'' syndrome, except unlike noxious breath it doesn't have major fracture to make it worthwhile for anything at all.

    Edited by Ragnarock41 on September 23, 2018 10:03AM
  • Onmari
    Onmari
    Before Talking about my concerns, I wanted to tell that I appreciate the balance team actually trying to make stamDK-poison synergy a bit more meaningful, but its done in such a way that it feels like rubbing salt on the wound.

    Some of you , probably including the combat balance team, are wondering why stamDKs are not happy to a ''buff'' that is so huge on paper. I mean %25 cost reduction, but its received as a meme more than a buff. I'm one of those who got mad while reading the patch notes, I know any change is better than no change when you're a stamDk main, but the lack of love and understanding is apparent in those patch notes.

    There are many reasons for why we feel this way about World in Ruin , so let me begin.

    1. There are not enough poison abilities.

    This is by far the biggest reason why stamDks, including myself are just laughing at the World in ruin changes. This is the 4th sustain passive you added to Dks now and this time, its basically meaningless because we don't have the tools to make use of this passive..

    The issue was never sustain, it was lack of tools in our hands to create a different playstyle.

    2.Lack of identity/synergy within the class

    Stamina Dk is a poison based melee class, and it has access to 6 poison abilities,. Only 2 of those abilities are actually melee, the other 4 come from weapon skills(3 from bow and trapping webs from undaunted) and everyone else also has access to them.

    It seems a lot on paper, definitely enough to make a strong build, but thats sadly only on paper.

    SDK now doesn't have passives that amp up poison damage, the two skills it has access to are dots that are weaker than bleeds, the other 3 come from bow skill line, which goes against the class identity completely.

    You just made ability ranges consistent for magDks with the elder dragon changes , congratz on that good change . However stamDKs needs to use lethal arrow, poison injection, acid spray, trapping webs, if they want to utilize the new world in ruin. Those abilities are all ranged and Dk dots+corrosive armor are melee abilities, this completely breaks the synergy and makes everything inconsistent.

    Problem here is that other classes have buffs that are much stronger and general meanwhile we get passives that don't make any difference., how would stamsorcs feel if their damage and cost reduction passives only worked on hurricane? That is exactly the case for stamDk right now, with noxious break being clunky as hell, the WiR only really matters for venomous claws, and claws is already the cheapest dot in the game(excluding the free axe bleed, which is broken but thats a discussion for another day).


    3. Existing Abilities need fixing before everything else

    Abilities like noxious breath, acid spray, trapping webs are still very clunky and weak for PvP use, even for casual PvP.

    Poison injection and venomous claws are ''fine'', they are still weaker than bleeds but thats a problem about bleeds being overpowered rather than poison being weak.




    I would go on forever about this, I would love to give suggestions on how to make this better, but it seems like you guys only want to hear about problems and solve them yourselves, so here are my problems as a stamina Dk main.

    If you've actually bothered to read this far, thank you. Try to emphasis on the fact that we are STAMINA Dks, and no, that does not mean we want to be tanks, and I do really hope that you come up with better changes, cause I know it can be done so easily , you only need to have the same passion for the class as we do. Every class deserves to have a diverse playstyle with unique perks. StamDK is no exception.



    Edit: Tagging @ZOS_RobGarrett , @ZOS_Wrobel , for them to see it.

    Remind me what the World in Ruin change is again?
  • Ragnarock41
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    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.

    I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again :smile:

    It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.
    PC EU - CP 1100+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Igneous Lizard Wizard - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Spongecroc Scalepants - Warden - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.

    I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again :smile:

    It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.

    for PvE , sure. Is it unique though? Nah. I saw similar nightblade bow parses.

    I guess I should have specified it is for PvP especially, where bow builds are DOMINATED by nightblades for obvious reasons.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on September 23, 2018 8:44AM
  • Marshall1289
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.

    I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again :smile:

    It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.

    Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.

    I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again :smile:

    It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.

    Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.

    He has to get in melee range to apply venomous claws/noxious breath anyways.

    I'm not against the idea of playing a bow, but the state of bow in PvP for non-nightblades is obvious, not to mention the fact that Dk is a melee class.
  • Thraben
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    Narvuntien wrote: »
    Good point.

    I think perhaps just move the damage they lost from the world in ruin changes onto the abilities.

    and leave the cost reduction on it now.


    Trapping webs should work a little faster(delay is fine but its harder to land than sub assault, talk about risk and reward :/ ) and the synergy should be working easier imho, requiring targetting makes it very clunky. I don't know what to do with trapping webs but it definitely needs some work to be viable.

    This is a great idea!


    Trapping Webs should work like Inevitable Deto (targeted, and activated when purged) and SUDDENLY many problems of StamDK would be fixed. And since it´s an underused skill which can be used by all, it does not even create balancing problems.
    Edited by Thraben on September 23, 2018 9:01AM
    ~ Benthragand, Beschwörer~

    Generalhauptmann der Dolche des Königs

    DDK ist die letzte Verteidigungslinie des Dolchsturz- Bündnisses auf SOTHA SIL (EU) mit dem Anspruch, in kleinen, anfängerfreundlichen Raid-Gruppen möglichst epische Schlachten auszufechten.

    DDK is the Daggerfall Covenant´s last line of defense on SOTHA SIL (EU). We intend to fight epic battles in small, casual player friendly raid groups.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Thraben wrote: »
    Narvuntien wrote: »
    Good point.

    I think perhaps just move the damage they lost from the world in ruin changes onto the abilities.

    and leave the cost reduction on it now.


    Trapping webs should work a little faster(delay is fine but its harder to land than sub assault, talk about risk and reward :/ ) and the synergy should be working easier imho, requiring targetting makes it very clunky. I don't know what to do with trapping webs but it definitely needs some work to be viable.

    This is a great idea!


    Trapping Webs should work like Inevitable Deto and SUDDENLY many problems of StamDK would be fixed. And since it´s an underused skill which can be used by all, it does not even create balancing problems.

    I'm always positive for improving off-meta playstyles. Just today I tried using an oldschool medium armor bow/2h stamDK(and still playing around with it), with poison injection-acid spray-trapping webs aswell as noxious breath for group utility. Out of all those poison abilities, trapping web was definitely the weakest one, and we had a really difficult time using the synergy aswell. ( I especially warned people watch for the synergy, explained to them how it works but in the end it was too much work for what its worth.)

    I believe that if sub assault is fine, then making trapping webs more reliable should be no problem when it comes to balance.

    Edited by Ragnarock41 on September 23, 2018 9:15AM
  • JohnOfMarkarth
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    while i agree with you fully i disagree on

    "Problem here is that other classes have buffs that are much stronger and general meanwhile we get passives that don't make any difference."

    look at piercing cold on warden
    ... its a damage increasing passive that increases damage of:
    one warden skill
    one warden ultimate
    Boom! amazing.

    and the rest? all in destro staff.. and even there again its... two skills one ultimate. In effect its max of three effective skills and one effective ultimate at any given time... there is 0 customization and differentiation possible...

    StamDKs share this unlucky fate.
    and its bad. Very bad.
    As a matter of fact its why i have even my nord DK as mag (even if they aint that powerful) just so its more fun than ... two abilities that are both just... dot-ups...
    Stamdks need... some nice stamina spammina... some love... some poisonous usefulness...
    many had good ideas before.. but it seems ZOS is not trying to make the game more fun. Its trying to make its more "X in line with Y" thus bland and boring.

    ZOS... please change your ways...
    try for once to make the game more fun not less for other classes...

    Give our StamDKs, who are much fun on paper, no fun in practice, some love... season them... dont let them stay so bland...

    kbwaxvjsrpce.jpg
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    while i agree with you fully i disagree on

    "Problem here is that other classes have buffs that are much stronger and general meanwhile we get passives that don't make any difference."

    look at piercing cold on warden
    ... its a damage increasing passive that increases damage of:
    one warden skill
    one warden ultimate
    Boom! amazing.

    and the rest? all in destro staff.. and even there again its... two skills one ultimate. In effect its max of three effective skills and one effective ultimate at any given time... there is 0 customization and differentiation possible...

    StamDKs share this unlucky fate.
    and its bad. Very bad.
    As a matter of fact its why i have even my nord DK as mag (even if they aint that powerful) just so its more fun than ... two abilities that are both just... dot-ups...
    Stamdks need... some nice stamina spammina... some love... some poisonous usefulness...
    many had good ideas before.. but it seems ZOS is not trying to make the game more fun. Its trying to make its more "X in line with Y" thus bland and boring.

    ZOS... please change your ways...
    try for once to make the game more fun not less for other classes...

    Give our StamDKs, who are much fun on paper, no fun in practice, some love... season them... dont let them stay so bland...

    kbwaxvjsrpce.jpg

    If I recall correctly piercing cold is not meant for stamdens to begin with.(and for magdens its a good passive considering it increases both magic and ice damage. I can't directly compare stamDK to magden, that would be like apples vs oranges.)

    Stamdens get %2 damage done per animal companion ability slotted, on top of that they also get access to minor berserk via bird of prey.(magdens also get this) On top of all this cheese they got many healing abilities, aoe burst heals for STAMINA, passive major mending...

    No sir, my point stands. Warden has it amazing when it comes to passives. Could magdens use better ice damage abilities though? yeah. Why not.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on September 23, 2018 10:31AM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Masel92 wrote: »
    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.

    I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again :smile:

    It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.

    Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.

    He has to get in melee range to apply venomous claws/noxious breath anyways.

    I'm not against the idea of playing a bow, but the state of bow in PvP for non-nightblades is obvious, not to mention the fact that Dk is a melee class.

    Dk is only a melee class because players associate it with the Dk. Does it matter which skills I cast while in melee range? Not really. I find it refreshing to play something else and it definitely adds some new identity to the class. Sustain is really good on it.
    PC EU - CP 1100+ All trials + HM

    Intis Ravelen - Stamina Nightblade - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Annisca Micus - Magicka Sorcerer - High Elf - DD and Hobbytank - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason
    Shéogórath - Stamina Dragonknight - Imperial - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Pilar Joranil - Magicka Dragonknight - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror -
    Adeline Du Mont - Magicka Templar - High Elf - Healer & DD - Flawless Conqueror & Voice of Reason + Bringer of Light
    Olivia Thaloran - Magicka Nightblade - Dunmer - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer & Voice of Reason
    Pu'jarr Ticklebeard - Stamina Sorcerer - Khajiit - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Treehugger Joe - Magicka Warden - High Elf - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Stuga Beluga - Stamina Templar - Orc - DD - Flawless Conqueror & Dro'mathra Destroyer
    Anna Terra - Stamina Warden - Redguard - DD - Flawless Conqueror
    Igneous Lizard Wizard - Dragonknight - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror
    Spongecroc Scalepants - Warden - Argonian - Tank - Flawless Conqueror

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    Masel92 wrote: »
    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.

    I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again :smile:

    It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.

    Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.

    He has to get in melee range to apply venomous claws/noxious breath anyways.

    I'm not against the idea of playing a bow, but the state of bow in PvP for non-nightblades is obvious, not to mention the fact that Dk is a melee class.

    Dk is only a melee class because players associate it with the Dk. Does it matter which skills I cast while in melee range? Not really. I find it refreshing to play something else and it definitely adds some new identity to the class. Sustain is really good on it.

    No I'm sorry but I disagree %100. We do not associate the class with Melee . The class is clearly designed with melee combat in mind first. PvE and PvP are two very different things. I admit that you have a point for PvE, bow/bow was never really good for PvE and I appreciate it being viable, but once again, PvE and PvP are two entirely different things. PoisonDk can be viable for PvE while not being viable for PvP, just like how stamden is god tier for PvP while being meh for PvE.

    Venomous claws, noxious breath, corrosive armor, take flight, are all abilities that work ONLY in melee range,(take flight is a gapcloser so still intended for melee). We don't have a cloak, we don't have the mobility or escape tools, we don't have mark or an assassin's bow. We don't have tools like dark deal or shade to kite more effectively. Battle roar rewards you for being agressive and spamming ults. Even noxious breath has extremely tiny range proving that it is supposed to be used at Melee range. We don't have the things that will make a bow gank build.

    Because stamDK is designed as a melee class. Its not that we see it as a melee class, its LITERALLY a melee class.

    But sure, lets act like we are no longer discount stamblades, because once again somebody found a way to do good enough dps on a dummy with stamDK again. Like how heavy attack builds were used as an argument against this before.


    Edited by Ragnarock41 on September 23, 2018 3:02PM
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
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    while i agree with you fully i disagree on

    "Problem here is that other classes have buffs that are much stronger and general meanwhile we get passives that don't make any difference."

    look at piercing cold on warden
    ... its a damage increasing passive that increases damage of:
    one warden skill
    one warden ultimate
    Boom! amazing.

    and the rest? all in destro staff.. and even there again its... two skills one ultimate. In effect its max of three effective skills and one effective ultimate at any given time... there is 0 customization and differentiation possible...

    StamDKs share this unlucky fate.
    and its bad. Very bad.
    As a matter of fact its why i have even my nord DK as mag (even if they aint that powerful) just so its more fun than ... two abilities that are both just... dot-ups...
    Stamdks need... some nice stamina spammina... some love... some poisonous usefulness...
    many had good ideas before.. but it seems ZOS is not trying to make the game more fun. Its trying to make its more "X in line with Y" thus bland and boring.

    ZOS... please change your ways...
    try for once to make the game more fun not less for other classes...

    Give our StamDKs, who are much fun on paper, no fun in practice, some love... season them... dont let them stay so bland...

    kbwaxvjsrpce.jpg

    Piercing cold is a great damage passive. It affects every warden damage skill (magicka) including the ults. Frankly stam warden doesn't need the damage bonus considering their burst potential is already second only to stamblade in pvp. and even better for group fights.

    As for dks, I don't think they need a class spammable (especially not whip meme). poison morphs of eruption and hardened armor would increase the usefulness of both combustion and WiR while giving dks more skills that will scale off of stam stats/cp. DK was built and should stay a dot-oriented class. That is one of its defining characteristics.
  • OrphanHelgen
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    You are spot on with acid spray, trapping webs and noxious breath having a clunky animation and feeling when used. Specially trapping webs maybe the most, it's a more cast time than other skills, and same animation as fire rune. It can also only proc synergy on range, which is 99% a magicka user and it will scale of their crit and penetration. The skill isn't a dot, which is what a stam dk invest in cp usually.
    Stam dk was best when maelstrom flurry gave 3k wpn dmg and standard of might had higher damage. Then maelstrom weapons got nerfed and stam dk was best due to heavy attacks consumed offbalance, and had good scaling with molten armaments.
    It's not strongest atm. It has least cleave and those who say stam dk is highest single target, is simply wrong.
    Standard of might and ven claw, doesn't make up for the passive stats other classes have. And as long as relequen, ravager and selene is absolutely bis, it's the set that give them dps, not their skills and playstyle.
    Templar benefit more due to their wpn dmg passives, and ravager give high wpn dmg.
    Sorc and warden benefit more due to their physical dmg increase and implotion.
    I won't mention nb here.
    Stam dk have 50% more dmg with poison status effect, which is really nice if it actually did something.

    I guess the cost reduction is a very good change for dk bow users in pvp, but for pve nothing changed sadly.
    Edited by OrphanHelgen on September 23, 2018 2:37PM
    PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact


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  • Onmari
    Onmari
    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.

    Hey thanks for posting it.... I don't get the reasoning behind it changing to a cost reduction over damage. My small two cents: to break up the monotony of fire and ash skills, it would be awesome to see more poison DK skills, not less. Imagine how popular they would become.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Onmari wrote: »
    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.

    Hey thanks for posting it.... I don't get the reasoning behind it changing to a cost reduction over damage. My small two cents: to break up the monotony of fire and ash skills, it would be awesome to see more poison DK skills, not less. Imagine how popular they would become.

    I would definitely appreciate some more poison morphs, and fixes to existing ones.

    The %25 cost reduction is actually an extremely good buff, however It would make a lot more sense to tune this passives after adding maybe one or two more poison morphs, fixing the existing ones(mainly noxious , trapping webs need fixing.)

    If they do fix those abilities, and adjust bleeds to be more balanced, then the vanilla bow/2h Dk would make a very powerful return.

    You are spot on with acid spray, trapping webs and noxious breath having a clunky animation and feeling when used. Specially trapping webs maybe the most, it's a more cast time than other skills, and same animation as fire rune. It can also only proc synergy on range, which is 99% a magicka user and it will scale of their crit and penetration. The skill isn't a dot, which is what a stam dk invest in cp usually.
    Stam dk was best when maelstrom flurry gave 3k wpn dmg and standard of might had higher damage. Then maelstrom weapons got nerfed and stam dk was best due to heavy attacks consumed offbalance, and had good scaling with molten armaments.
    It's not strongest atm. It has least cleave and those who say stam dk is highest single target, is simply wrong.
    Standard of might and ven claw, doesn't make up for the passive stats other classes have. And as long as relequen, ravager and selene is absolutely bis, it's the set that give them dps, not their skills and playstyle.
    Templar benefit more due to their wpn dmg passives, and ravager give high wpn dmg.
    Sorc and warden benefit more due to their physical dmg increase and implotion.
    I won't mention nb here.
    Stam dk have 50% more dmg with poison status effect, which is really nice if it actually did something.

    I guess the cost reduction is a very good change for dk bow users in pvp, but for pve nothing changed sadly.

    Right now I'm experimenting with bow/2h builds that use a lot of poison damage and I'm having an ''OK'' time with it, definitely not viable against strong foes or competent high MMR teams, however its good for zergsurfing with the wings of nostalgia. It takes a lot of skill compared to the bleed builds or the regular brawler stamDK builds , so I would love to see this playstyle made more reliable.

    The cost reduction is definitely very strong, however without properly functioning poison abilities, it is a little meaningless.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on September 23, 2018 3:06PM
  • TankHealz2015
    TankHealz2015
    ✭✭✭
    Before Talking about my concerns, I wanted to tell that I appreciate the balance team actually trying to make stamDK-poison synergy a bit more meaningful, but its done in such a way that it feels like rubbing salt on the wound.

    Some of you , probably including the combat balance team, are wondering why stamDKs are not happy to a ''buff'' that is so huge on paper. I mean %25 cost reduction, but its received as a meme more than a buff. I'm one of those who got mad while reading the patch notes, I know any change is better than no change when you're a stamDk main, but the lack of love and understanding is apparent in those patch notes.

    There are many reasons for why we feel this way about World in Ruin , so let me begin.

    1. There are not enough poison abilities.

    This is by far the biggest reason why stamDks, including myself are just laughing at the World in ruin changes. This is the 4th sustain passive you added to Dks now and this time, its basically meaningless because we don't have the tools to make use of this passive..

    The issue was never sustain, it was lack of tools in our hands to create a different playstyle.

    2.Lack of identity/synergy within the class

    Stamina Dk is a poison based melee class, and it has access to 6 poison abilities,. Only 2 of those abilities are actually melee, the other 4 come from weapon skills(3 from bow and trapping webs from undaunted) and everyone else also has access to them.

    It seems a lot on paper, definitely enough to make a strong build, but thats sadly only on paper.

    SDK now doesn't have passives that amp up poison damage, the two skills it has access to are dots that are weaker than bleeds, the other 3 come from bow skill line, which goes against the class identity completely.

    You just made ability ranges consistent for magDks with the elder dragon changes , congratz on that good change . However stamDKs needs to use lethal arrow, poison injection, acid spray, trapping webs, if they want to utilize the new world in ruin. Those abilities are all ranged and Dk dots+corrosive armor are melee abilities, this completely breaks the synergy and makes everything inconsistent.

    Problem here is that other classes have buffs that are much stronger and general meanwhile we get passives that don't make any difference., how would stamsorcs feel if their damage and cost reduction passives only worked on hurricane? That is exactly the case for stamDk right now, with noxious break being clunky as hell, the WiR only really matters for venomous claws, and claws is already the cheapest dot in the game(excluding the free axe bleed, which is broken but thats a discussion for another day).


    3. Existing Abilities need fixing before everything else

    Abilities like noxious breath, acid spray, trapping webs are still very clunky and weak for PvP use, even for casual PvP.

    Poison injection and venomous claws are ''fine'', they are still weaker than bleeds but thats a problem about bleeds being overpowered rather than poison being weak.




    I would go on forever about this, I would love to give suggestions on how to make this better, but it seems like you guys only want to hear about problems and solve them yourselves, so here are my problems as a stamina Dk main.

    If you've actually bothered to read this far, thank you. Try to emphasis on the fact that we are STAMINA Dks, and no, that does not mean we want to be tanks, and I do really hope that you come up with better changes, cause I know it can be done so easily , you only need to have the same passion for the class as we do. Every class deserves to have a diverse playstyle with unique perks. StamDK is no exception.



    Edit: Tagging @ZOS_RobGarrett , @ZOS_Wrobel , for them to see it.


    Insightful feedback.

    What if either:

    A. change the Ardent Flame skill Cauterize from the heal to stamina/poison damage.

    or

    B. change the Earthen Heart skill Obsidian Shard from heal to stamina/poison damage.


    Just an idea...
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Masel92 wrote: »
    Masel92 wrote: »
    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.

    I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again :smile:

    It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.

    Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.

    He has to get in melee range to apply venomous claws/noxious breath anyways.

    I'm not against the idea of playing a bow, but the state of bow in PvP for non-nightblades is obvious, not to mention the fact that Dk is a melee class.

    Dk is only a melee class because players associate it with the Dk. Does it matter which skills I cast while in melee range? Not really. I find it refreshing to play something else and it definitely adds some new identity to the class. Sustain is really good on it.

    No I'm sorry but I disagree %100. We do not associate the class with Melee . The class is clearly designed with melee combat in mind first. PvE and PvP are two very different things. I admit that you have a point for PvE, bow/bow was never really good for PvE and I appreciate it being viable, but once again, PvE and PvP are two entirely different things. PoisonDk can be viable for PvE while not being viable for PvP, just like how stamden is god tier for PvP while being meh for PvE.

    Venomous claws, noxious breath, corrosive armor, take flight, are all abilities that work ONLY in melee range,(take flight is a gapcloser so still intended for melee). We don't have a cloak, we don't have the mobility or escape tools, we don't have mark or an assassin's bow. We don't have tools like dark deal or shade to kite more effectively. Battle roar rewards you for being agressive and spamming ults. Even noxious breath has extremely tiny range proving that it is supposed to be used at Melee range. We don't have the things that will make a bow gank build.

    Because stamDK is designed as a melee class. Its not that we see it as a melee class, its LITERALLY a melee class.

    But sure, lets act like we are no longer discount stamblades, because once again somebody found a way to do good enough dps on a dummy with stamDK again. Like how heavy attack builds were used as an argument against this before.


    No need to get this upset, I was simply pointing out that I like the pve bow/bow playstyle. I agree that stam dk needs more identity, especially in pvp you basically feel like a weaker mag dk with your bars crowded with weapon abilities since you can't sustain your magicka with all the skills that cost magicka for you.

    Noxious breath is fairly pathetic in pvp, it doesn't hit half the time, the dot is pointless. Even surprise attack puts on a longer duration of fracture and more damage up front than breath over the whole duration, plus major armor buffs. Venomous claw also is a pretty boring skill, doesn't do much besides good poison damage.

    Point is: stam dk needs better alternatives in Form of stamina morphs. Don't get me wrong, the cost reduction and melee range increase are very nice! I tested it in duels and the new veteran arena and you really feel it. But this doesn't change the fact that stam dks lack class-based damage options. Same holds for stamsorcs. Stamplars, stamdens and stamblades hit very hard on the pts, and stam dk and stamsorc are very far behind.

    I simply dont find a reason to play stam dk in pvp, because other classes simply are better, and if I want to play a dk, I can go mag dk: better healing, better range if needed, better sustain.
    Edited by Masel on September 23, 2018 6:00PM
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  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    I didn't see it mentioned but World In Ruin isn't working with Trapping Webs and it should be.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
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    Templar's are evil..
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    Masel92 wrote: »
    Masel92 wrote: »
    @Onmari , the %6 extra poison damage bonus was replaced with %25 cost reduction to poison abilities.

    The fire damage part of WiR is still the same.

    I'm gonna post you my 51k selfbuffed bow/bow dk parse from pts and then we can talk again :smile:

    It actually makes bow/bow a really good playstyle on stam dks, which also let's them deal good damage at medium range as well.

    Would love to see that please. Also doesn't change the fact that DK's are not meant for a ranged playstyle. There is little synergy for that and you may have been playing bow/bow in melee range so I'm curious.

    He has to get in melee range to apply venomous claws/noxious breath anyways.

    I'm not against the idea of playing a bow, but the state of bow in PvP for non-nightblades is obvious, not to mention the fact that Dk is a melee class.

    Dk is only a melee class because players associate it with the Dk. Does it matter which skills I cast while in melee range? Not really. I find it refreshing to play something else and it definitely adds some new identity to the class. Sustain is really good on it.

    No I'm sorry but I disagree %100. We do not associate the class with Melee . The class is clearly designed with melee combat in mind first. PvE and PvP are two very different things. I admit that you have a point for PvE, bow/bow was never really good for PvE and I appreciate it being viable, but once again, PvE and PvP are two entirely different things. PoisonDk can be viable for PvE while not being viable for PvP, just like how stamden is god tier for PvP while being meh for PvE.

    Venomous claws, noxious breath, corrosive armor, take flight, are all abilities that work ONLY in melee range,(take flight is a gapcloser so still intended for melee). We don't have a cloak, we don't have the mobility or escape tools, we don't have mark or an assassin's bow. We don't have tools like dark deal or shade to kite more effectively. Battle roar rewards you for being agressive and spamming ults. Even noxious breath has extremely tiny range proving that it is supposed to be used at Melee range. We don't have the things that will make a bow gank build.

    Because stamDK is designed as a melee class. Its not that we see it as a melee class, its LITERALLY a melee class.

    But sure, lets act like we are no longer discount stamblades, because once again somebody found a way to do good enough dps on a dummy with stamDK again. Like how heavy attack builds were used as an argument against this before.


    No need to get this upset, I was simply pointing out that I like the pve bow/bow playstyle. I agree that stam dk needs more identity, especially in pvp you basically feel like a weaker mag dk with your bars crowded with weapon abilities since you can't sustain your magicka with all the skills that cost magicka for you.

    Noxious breath is fairly pathetic in pvp, it doesn't hit half the time, the dot is pointless. Even surprise attack puts on a longer duration of fracture and more damage up front than breath over the whole duration, plus major armor buffs. Venomous claw also is a pretty boring skill, doesn't do much besides good poison damage.

    Point is: stam dk needs better alternatives in Form of stamina morphs. Don't get me wrong, the cost reduction and melee range increase are very nice! I tested it in duels and the new veteran arena and you really feel it. But this doesn't change the fact that stam dks lack class-based damage options. Same holds for stamsorcs. Stamplars, stamdens and stamblades hit very hard on the pts, and stam dk and stamsorc are very far behind.

    I simply dont find a reason to play stam dk in pvp, because other classes simply are better, and if I want to play a dk, I can go mag dk: better healing, better range if needed, better sustain.

    Sorry for my initinal reaction! I'm just mad at the fact that you're having fun with your stamDk in PvE and Its not possible for me to find the same success in PvP with a bow build. The WiR change is definitely going to push us towards using more poison abilities just for the fact that they are now %25 cheaper, however using a bow means pushing away some of the natural advantages of stamDk like good healing and blocking, so definitely more buffs needed.

    I didn't see it mentioned but World In Ruin isn't working with Trapping Webs and it should be.

    Devs should definitely know about this, sounds like a bug to me.
  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
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    ✭✭
    1. There are not enough poison abilities.
    What if Noxious Breath increased poison damage like Engulfing Flames increases fire damage? That might make it a bit more useful in DPS rotations, as the damage itself is negligable and Major Fracture is redundant in most situations.

    It'll probably be easier to convince ZOS of such a change than add entirely new poison skills, like a stamina whip..
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    Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭
    Faulgor wrote: »
    1. There are not enough poison abilities.
    What if Noxious Breath increased poison damage like Engulfing Flames increases fire damage? That might make it a bit more useful in DPS rotations, as the damage itself is negligable and Major Fracture is redundant in most situations.

    It'll probably be easier to convince ZOS of such a change than add entirely new poison skills, like a stamina whip..

    I suggested this idea before however it was back in the stamDk heavy attack meta so people refused it claiming it would push stamDK dps way too far. (I personally believe this ability should increase poison/disease damage by %10 so that stamDK would buff up damage for stamdens/stamblades , and the ability have a cone similar to dawnbreaker in size.Only then it would be a truly class defining tool.)

    This is one of the reasons PvE meta frustrates me, rotations, parses, dps, these are things that mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in PvP.

    When people claim that all the problems in the game comes from PvP, they only see one side of the coin. I really hoped that they would separate both already.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on September 24, 2018 6:13AM
  • Mangeli200194
    Mangeli200194
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    I recently fell (back) in love again with my dk and sure is very weak, gets screwed by ultidumps but I don't really care. Usually if I run into the usual stamsorc /stamden helicopters I turtle up since on a slow dk they run circles around me but always lack the damage to kill me(by themselves)
    Still fun 2 play and its funny 2 see how many people r getting carried in Pvp by stamsorc /stamden helicopter builds atm :lol:
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  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭
    I recently fell (back) in love again with my dk and sure is very weak, gets screwed by ultidumps but I don't really care. Usually if I run into the usual stamsorc /stamden helicopters I turtle up since on a slow dk they run circles around me but always lack the damage to kill me(by themselves)
    Still fun 2 play and its funny 2 see how many people r getting carried in Pvp by stamsorc /stamden helicopter builds atm :lol:

    StamDK with the new dlc will protect its bottom tier status for stamina PvP. I'm not really excited at all for murkmire.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on September 24, 2018 7:34AM
  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    Faulgor wrote: »
    What if Noxious Breath increased poison damage like Engulfing Flames increases fire damage? That might make it a bit more useful in DPS rotations, as the damage itself is negligable and Major Fracture is redundant in most situations.

    I don't think there are enough poison abilities in the game to warrant that. Everyone and their dog is doing fire damage nowadays, stamina DK doesn't have any synergy with anything else in that regard. Plus status effects given by poison/disease aren't as good as status effects from elemental damage.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭
    Faulgor wrote: »
    What if Noxious Breath increased poison damage like Engulfing Flames increases fire damage? That might make it a bit more useful in DPS rotations, as the damage itself is negligable and Major Fracture is redundant in most situations.

    I don't think there are enough poison abilities in the game to warrant that. Everyone and their dog is doing fire damage nowadays, stamina DK doesn't have any synergy with anything else in that regard. Plus status effects given by poison/disease aren't as good as status effects from elemental damage.

    This is part of the reasons I should have probably included in the main past.

    Poisoned as a status effect is basically weaker fire.
  • Kanar
    Kanar
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    Don't forget that new elder dragon increases range by 2m for: reverse slice, onslaught, pierce armor, low slash, reverb, blood craze. This will be nice in the new speedy gonzalez PvP world.

    Acid spray is easy to use in PvP (unlike noxious), but it is only useful for asylum bow or as a NB killer (that's being nerfed but will still be one of the best anti-cloak tools imo).

    My 2h/bow stamDK will be more effective in murkmire than before, but it wasn't that effective before. I think the dodge roll nerf will hurt medium armor a lot in PvP.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    ✭✭
    Kanar wrote: »
    Don't forget that new elder dragon increases range by 2m for: reverse slice, onslaught, pierce armor, low slash, reverb, blood craze. This will be nice in the new speedy gonzalez PvP world.

    Acid spray is easy to use in PvP (unlike noxious), but it is only useful for asylum bow or as a NB killer (that's being nerfed but will still be one of the best anti-cloak tools imo).

    My 2h/bow stamDK will be more effective in murkmire than before, but it wasn't that effective before. I think the dodge roll nerf will hurt medium armor a lot in PvP.

    It will be pretty much meaningless because most of the targetting issues do not come from lack of range. I have no issues whatsoever hitting venomous claws with 5 meters range right now, but noxious breath with its 10m range is another story.

    IF you've ever, just once in your life, equipped a bow in PvP you will know that the extra range does not mean a thing, targetting issues against speed meta never came from the lack of range. Its a problem of people moving so fast that it becomes impossible to properly keep your aim on them. Whether they are in your face or they are 41 meters away.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on September 24, 2018 3:53PM
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