I Did vMA on Magsorc With Shield Cast Time on the PTS and It was Hell

Asardes · September 2018

IMO the blanket cast time is a bad option to begin with. They should have made it specific to Hardened Ward and maybe Dampen Magicka. It would make sense to trade cast time for extra shield strength and duration. This way people would still have access to instant cast Empowered Ward or Harness Magicka, at the expense of a smaller shield, but with other added benefits such as sustain.

swaggasm · September 2018

Sparr0w wrote: »

Side question... how high do you jump?!

Pretty high O:

code65536 wrote: »

This is another case of lowering the floor. Go watch videos of people clearing vMA on Live. The competitive players getting 590K or higher rarely use their shield. I know some competitive vMA players who don't even slot a shield on some rounds and use that skill slot for something else. It costs resources and eats up a GCD. Keep in mind that the competitive players have all the spawns memorized and will kill things before they become a threat. For players like that, the shield nerf is largely inconsequential.

But then you go watch an average player do vMA. These are the people who get around 500K score--good, competent clears, but taking about twice as long as competitive players, and if you ever catch one of those people on video, you'll see that they rely on the shield much more frequently.

And then you watch people who get first clears or are otherwise struggling through vMA. And they will spam that shield as they get in trouble and try to cling onto life.

It's funny how @ZOS_RichLambert made narrowing the floor-ceiling gap the centerpiece of their balance changes over the past year and a half, and yet here we are with a nerf that, as far as endgame PvE is concerned, penalizes the floor disproportionately more than the ceiling.

Anyway, I'm not at all surprised that @swaggasm can get 601K because I know that people pushing past 600K are rarely using their shield anyway. But in a game where the floor and ceiling has gotten only wider in recent patches, this is yet another change that will force that gap even wider.

I agree 100% with this. Like I said in my original post I don't agree with the shield change, it will of course make certain pieces of content/situations harder for newer players/low cp players/high latency players and even experienced players. I wanted to show the 'ceiling' aspect and how small a minority won't be affected, compared to the majority. My 2 cents on what to do about shields maybe have, one morph that is instant cast but weaker and another morph that is longer to cast but stronger.

WuffyCerulei · September 2018

swaggasm wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Side question... how high do you jump?!

Pretty high O:

code65536 wrote: »

This is another case of lowering the floor. Go watch videos of people clearing vMA on Live. The competitive players getting 590K or higher rarely use their shield. I know some competitive vMA players who don't even slot a shield on some rounds and use that skill slot for something else. It costs resources and eats up a GCD. Keep in mind that the competitive players have all the spawns memorized and will kill things before they become a threat. For players like that, the shield nerf is largely inconsequential.

But then you go watch an average player do vMA. These are the people who get around 500K score--good, competent clears, but taking about twice as long as competitive players, and if you ever catch one of those people on video, you'll see that they rely on the shield much more frequently.

And then you watch people who get first clears or are otherwise struggling through vMA. And they will spam that shield as they get in trouble and try to cling onto life.

It's funny how @ZOS_RichLambert made narrowing the floor-ceiling gap the centerpiece of their balance changes over the past year and a half, and yet here we are with a nerf that, as far as endgame PvE is concerned, penalizes the floor disproportionately more than the ceiling.

Anyway, I'm not at all surprised that @swaggasm can get 601K because I know that people pushing past 600K are rarely using their shield anyway. But in a game where the floor and ceiling has gotten only wider in recent patches, this is yet another change that will force that gap even wider.

I agree 100% with this. Like I said in my original post I don't agree with the shield change, it will of course make certain pieces of content/situations harder for newer players/low cp players/high latency players and even experienced players. I wanted to show the 'ceiling' aspect and how small a minority won't be affected, compared to the majority. My 2 cents on what to do about shields maybe have, one morph that is instant cast but weaker and another morph that is longer to cast but stronger.

If they really want to push the cast time, then having a trade off with the weaker one being instant would be best. That is if they are really going for it. I hope not though.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

Splattercat_83 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nox_Noir wrote: »

I can imagine how painful this must have been.
May I ask what kind of scores you are used to getting on live? This might be relevant for sake of comparison, otherwise people might say that 464k is a decent score and therefore sorc will be fine...

My score on PTS was about 20K lower than I'd get on Live.

The content can get done, it's not really the point. It's that the skills impede rather than assist doing so.

Sorc and NB scores were stupid high already, this would only bring them down to more comparable to other classes. At least on the average.

If you have skill you can make leader boards on any class. Maelstrom also only ranks classes together. If your not making the leader boards then it's a problem with you not sorcs or mnb

No one said anything about "not making the leaderboards", nice straw man there. The average scores between classes were in no way balanced. A 400k score would get you on DK, Warden, and Templar leaderboards almost every week. That same score wouldn't be close to being on NB or Sorc leaderboards.

Most weeks to get on the DK, Templar, or Warden leaderboards you only need to complete VMA with virtually any score. The same could not be said of NB or Sorc. There is a gross discrepancy between the average scores of each class, if sorc lost 20k on their average score that is nothing to cry over.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

pteam wrote: »

swaggasm wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I decided to see how hellish vMA would be in the new Murkmire patch and the stupid cast time on shields. And I was right. It was hell. My score was 464k with 4 vitality and at 1:11. I did take a few pauses, mainly to get potions and food. Now I'll go stage by stage explaining how hellish each was. I will upload a crap quality video soon of the full run (OBS decided to record it in terrible resolution).

Stage 1: There weren't really any clutch moments. I had spent a lot of time on this round and knew what to do. No deaths.
Stage 2: Slightly hard, but the spinning blade damage didn't hurt too much. No deaths.
Stage 3: Again, slightly hard, but probably one of the easiest rounds in vMA. No deaths.
Stage 4: A few times where my shield didn't go up until I was at like half health. No deaths.
Stage 5: This is where it really started to get hellish. At the 4th round, there was literally 2 times my health dropped to under 1k. If I had insta-cast shield, I wouldn't have almost died twice. No deaths tho.
Stage 6: I died this round. 3 times in a row. Once those lurchers started spawning, and the spiders who hate the glowing thing showed up, it was hard. My shield wasn't up in time 3 times in a row during the same round. Insta-cast shields would have saved me. 3 deaths. All to shield not coming up in time,
Stage 7: There as 1 time I died on the last boss due to my own dumbness. 2 times, however, my shield did not come up in time to save me. 3 deaths, 1 to my own mistake and 2 to shield not coming up in time.
Stage 8: This round was painful as well. I went out my way to get better potions here and lower my vamp stage as well. I died once to not getting out of an aoe, which is my fault. However, I did die once due to my shield not coming up in time. 2 deaths, 1 to mistake, 1 to shield not coming up in time.
Stage 9: Now I was worried about the daedroth in this stage, and I was right. I died twice to their fire because my shield did not come up in time. On the current live server, I can avoid dying to them with shield no problem. 1 death was just me being a dodo and dying to an NPC's thrown fire. 3 deaths, 1 due to mistake and 2 to shield not coming up in time.

Death Cause Tally
Player Error: 3
Shield Not Coming Up In time: 8

I suffered to show how stupid this shield cast time is. Sorcs aren't the only ones affected. Magicka nightblades, magicka templars, magicka wardens, and magicka dragonknights all have to suffer with Annulment having a cast time as well, and that shield is more expensive and covers less damage than Hardened Ward.

I don't agree with the shield change but MagSorc is still really easy in vMA with this change. Had no issues even with high latency on the PTS. Haven't tried it in a trial or a PVP situation on the PTS to compare to live but...

Somebody who gets a 600k score probably is barely shielding. Most people with scores that high don’t even use a shield because you know what is gonna spawn where and when and you kill it before you even have to shield. I bet with a 600k score you probably only used a shield a few times and that was using it just to use it and you didn’t even need it.

I don't play sorc, I ran high sustain, I used shield throughout. This has nothing to do with "high" score players versus noobs. This has to do with changing a mindset on when and how shields are used for defense. Hardened ward is not set up for last second defense, it is however quite strong with Major Buffs if you pre-buff it before add pulls and before taking expected spike damage.

Dracane · September 2018

Shields are not needed for vMA. I recently uploaded a video where I run it without any shields on magicka Sorcerer, with a good time even for someone as inexperienced in there as myself.
The changes will be a problem in hard content and vMA is not in that category as far as I am concerned.

In some trials, dungeons and of course in pvp; that's where this change will be destructive.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

AgaTheGreat wrote: »

Beginner players rely heavily on heavy attack pet builds to finish VMA and they still struggle. Take away their shield = frustration, rage quitting, loss of playerbase. The learning curve of VMA is steep as it is.

It's easy for the above posters to claim that cast time changed nothing but you had countless vma runs without these stupid changes plus PC crowd has add-ons to help you get through vma smoother. Console people? Not so much.

The decision to change how shields work is going to hit avrage players the hardest. And don't tell me they should learn to play. The devs designed this game so that people of all abilities can play it.

The lack of addons isn't a problem, you don't need addons to complete VMA. I literally just did it with a controller and no addons because I'm more comfortable with that.

Toc de Malsvi · September 2018

The argument that new players will find it harder to play I simply cannot agree with. Sure new players will struggle with VMA, that is going to happen regardless of what class/resource they are on. New players have the advantage though that they are not set in their minds trying to use a cast time skill as and instant last second prayer for surviving.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@Toc de Malsvi , fish does not know that it lives in water. I fear we all may not correctly see how new players will be struggling and what they'll be struggling with; the judgement is skewed by experience and the fact that the phase of using shields as emergency defense is over. It's hard to judge in retrospective about how your mind would've been set back then when you've been new.

Kanar · September 2018

New players are meant to struggle in vMA. What you think it should be a free ride? Sorc has been easy mode in there, ie a crutch for inexperienced players to use so they can avoid learning the mechanics (see all the posts whining about stage 7 poison without shields).

It's good if this change makes vMA harder for sorcs. Try running it on a stamDK and see what your score is vs sorc.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@Kanar , it will make vMA harder for all magicka, not just sorcs, since it's light armor shield that got 1s cast time. And you might say "so they can avoid learning mechanics", when I would say "while they're learning mechanics". vMA is already punishing experience for new people, and not very rewarding, considering that majority of drops is a deconstruction material.

ruikkarikun · September 2018

vMA is good but there are some trials and vet dubgeons (DLC especially) where cast time really will make insta death moments and not comfortable gameplay.

ezio45 · September 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

I did too. Just use healing ward instead and it's fine. Because that ability works like a shield should.

@Joy_Division

when is the next class rep meeting?

Joy_Division · September 2018

Tuesday.

ezio45 · September 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Tuesday.

Ill be looking forward to Wednesday when they are forced to make a statement, ty

ZOS_Mika · September 2018

We have removed some non-constructive comments from this thread. Please keep the discussion on topic and free of insults. Thank you.

AverageJo3Gam3r · September 2018

I didn't watch the video in it's entirety, but learning mechanics would help you out here. I love this update because it will force people to learn mechanics rather than rely on crutch shields. You can't run away from the CG fire breath and expect to live through the dot, you gotta strafe around it to avoid it. Stam classes have been doing this forever. You just gotta do it on mag now.

Also, you only are focusing on one piece of the patch changes. Shield now inherit armor resists. So you should be running boundless storm. That will make your shields much stronger.

AverageJo3Gam3r · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi , fish does not know that it lives in water. I fear we all may not correctly see how new players will be struggling and what they'll be struggling with; the judgement is skewed by experience and the fact that the phase of using shields as emergency defense is over. It's hard to judge in retrospective about how your mind would've been set back then when you've been new.

I don't agree with this logic since we were all new at one time. Of course, my first vMA clear was on a stamDK and stamDK is the only character I'm flawless on, so I'm solidly in the "shields are an unnecessary crutch" camp.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@AverageJo3Gam3r , the emphasis on word "were". In retrospective, everything feels so easy it's hard to believe how one was struggling back then. Games of human mind. Also, I'd have troubles believing you didn't use wings and/or corrosive on stamDK during your first clears.

Weps · September 2018

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

I didn't watch the video in it's entirety, but learning mechanics would help you out here. I love this update because it will force people to learn mechanics rather than rely on crutch shields. You can't run away from the CG fire breath and expect to live through the dot, you gotta strafe around it to avoid it. Stam classes have been doing this forever. You just gotta do it on mag now.

Also, you only are focusing on one piece of the patch changes. Shield now inherit armor resists. So you should be running boundless storm. That will make your shields much stronger.

Lol, I haven't seen a Crematorial flame in a looooong time. Normally they're just nuked. And nuked hard.
Shield is not for highly telegraphed well-known mechanics. Shield is to prevent RNG and stacking damage.
Something that with a stam class you can do by dodging. Not something you can do consistently on a mag class

Odovacar · September 2018

VMA is tough and for players that are still trying for their first clear (w/ sorc of course; as so many do 1st time) will feel the pain obviously the most, but maybe the change will make everyone much more competent in their mechanic reads as well.....? Not every gamer has grit and determination as others though, so I can only imagine the frustration if this makes it through. Some can hack it and some will struggle with this change. lets hope for the best.

Odovacar · September 2018

WuffyCerulei wrote: »
» show previous quotes

This is about magicka people. Stam have their own damage mitigation (blade cloak).

My first clear was MDK, coagulating blood is nice though!

AverageJo3Gam3r · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@AverageJo3Gam3r , the emphasis on word "were". In retrospective, everything feels so easy it's hard to believe how one was struggling back then. Games of human mind. Also, I'd have troubles believing you didn't use wings and/or corrosive on stamDK during your first clears.

I also used vigor, hardened armor, defensive and healing sigils. What point are you making? That I used the defensive tools available to my class?

Sorcs can do that too. Sorcs have: two different pets that can provide on-demand heals; a skill that provides major resistances, major speed, and passive AoE damage; one of the best HoTs in the game in surge; the best repositioning tool in the game that also stuns or absorbs projectiles; a channeled heal+resource restore; and a (now channeled) damage shield.

And that's all just within their class, not including armor sets like Iceheart that can increase survival or resto staff skills.

My point is this: sorcs have plenty of survival options for vMA outside of shields. It's an individual player's choice whether to take advantage of them or not. Claims that sorcs are significantly harder for a rookie to clear vMA with a channeled shield is grandstanding.

LiquidPony · September 2018

AverageJo3Gam3r wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@AverageJo3Gam3r , the emphasis on word "were". In retrospective, everything feels so easy it's hard to believe how one was struggling back then. Games of human mind. Also, I'd have troubles believing you didn't use wings and/or corrosive on stamDK during your first clears.

I also used vigor, hardened armor, defensive and healing sigils. What point are you making? That I used the defensive tools available to my class?

Sorcs can do that too. Sorcs have: two different pets that can provide on-demand heals; a skill that provides major resistances, major speed, and passive AoE damage; one of the best HoTs in the game in surge; the best repositioning tool in the game that also stuns or absorbs projectiles; a channeled heal+resource restore; and a (now channeled) damage shield.

And that's all just within their class, not including armor sets like Iceheart that can increase survival or resto staff skills.

My point is this: sorcs have plenty of survival options for vMA outside of shields. It's an individual player's choice whether to take advantage of them or not. Claims that sorcs are significantly harder for a rookie to clear vMA with a channeled shield is grandstanding.

I'm sorry, but this is utter nonsense.

I don't even really play a magsorc. I've run Maelstrom on a magsorc maybe 4 or 5 times, just to get the achievements. My magsorc is alternately a PvE healer and BG build. I learned vMA on a stamblade years ago and the vast majority of my clears are on that build, although lately I've taken to farming it on a stamsorc.

But everything you've said here directly contradicts your conclusion. You're saying, in short, "sorcs should just slot a resto and/or switch to a defensive monster set and/or change their builds in some other way to make up for the cast time on shields," but all of those things are significant DPS losses. And in vMA (and really all PvE content), when you lose DPS, the content gets much harder very quickly. The first lesson I learned in vMA, learning it on a stamblade, is this: the best defense is to nuke everything ASAP. Archer giving you trouble? Don't run away or dodge his arrows, kill him as soon as he spawns. Crematorial Guards getting you down? Stand where they spawn and burn them down before they even begin attacking.

So now, not only have we gimped the primary magicka defense mechanism, the side-effect of that is that to make up for that change, we have to run less-optimal builds, thus lowering our damage, thus making it harder to get those first vMA clears in more than one way.

I'm primarily a stamina DPS PvE player, and I think this change sucks.

I expect that the class reps meeting today is going to be a bit awkward, because the vast majority of traffic on the forums and Reddit and many Discords I'm in has been nothing but the community taking a giant steaming dump on the developers and the class reps for the past several days.

majulook · September 2018

I do not understand your complaint?

You went through vMA with a Sorc on PTS with the current changes, and were successful.

yahuhu · September 2018

Let me guess - all this is the result on the old build? Just to correct the build for a new mechanic and try again, no?... all you only 1sec cd and see.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

majulook wrote: »

I do not understand your complaint?

You went through vMA with a Sorc on PTS with the current changes, and were successful.

He's a relatively experienced player, and he demonstrated that he was struggling compared to usual runs. New players will struggle too in comparison to what they're usually going through. I thought the point of OP was very simple.

Lord_Eomer · September 2018

ZOS_MikaS wrote: »

We have removed some non-constructive comments from this thread. Please keep the discussion on topic and free of insults. Thank you.

I believe you goota lot of work to do this month!

Bfish22090 · September 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nox_Noir wrote: »

I can imagine how painful this must have been.
May I ask what kind of scores you are used to getting on live? This might be relevant for sake of comparison, otherwise people might say that 464k is a decent score and therefore sorc will be fine...

My score on PTS was about 20K lower than I'd get on Live.

The content can get done, it's not really the point. It's that the skills impede rather than assist doing so.

Ok but you are a good player.the casuals that ZOS caters there content towards need shields to survive

Bfish22090 · September 2018

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

Finnaly u will feel like stamina dk doing that arena.. welcome to the club

This is about magicka people. Stam have their own damage mitigation (blade cloak).

And ROLLERDOGGEY