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How are magicka classes supposed to stay alive?
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BigBadVolk✭✭✭✭✭JarlUlfric wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Dodging and blocking requires stamina and stamina regen, which magicka classes don't have.
Magicka classes had shields before, which consumed magicka. With shields being effectively removed from the game, we are defenseless.
Sorc - streak into ward (even if they bash the first one u have 6 seconds for the next)
templar - purge + heal, don't use wards much anyway but cc into ward if u want
magblade - cloak or shade both give u separation and time to ward
warden - kinda screwed with this one since they lack a good cc or sure evasion but they have great sustained healing to help
them not get into a bad situation
dragonknight - so many heal options if played well/doesn't have harsh dependency on wards.
All of the above: healing ward doesn't have a cast time so it still makes a great emergency ward.
ps. Wards weren't removed, they just made it so spamming them doesn't all of a sudden turn u into a tank with no need to spec into survivability.
Except that Healing Ward does diddly poo now that you can crit it. I've tested it, it's gone before you can even line something up offensively. Light Armor pvp builds are dead my dude.
except dk templar (maybe) and maggankblades
"The ass is similar to the opinion: Everyone has it, but no one cares about the others!"
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Witar✭✭✭✭✭By rolling stamina toon that's how.It cannot be seen, cannot be felt,
Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt,
It lies behind stars and under hills,
And empty holes it fills,
It comes first and follows after,
Ends life, kills laughter.1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@Rex-Umbra , how's that buff in PvE? Imagine trying to shield up before resurrecting someone, and you're constantly getting interrupted (...and stunned, and put off balance). Or spinning on an isle in vMA, trying to do some damage while you're shielding up; or trying to refresh shields while you're running to a cleanse pool after you had poison plant popped under your feet.3 -
ManDraKE✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »
not trying to defend the cast time in shields here but lets be honest, the only class that will really suffer this is magika sorc ( and maybe magwarden if there is someone still playing that class, not counting debuff ice tanks lol). Neither magplar, magdk or magblade really need Harness to survive. While you can play shield builds with them, they are not really mandatory and in most of the cases they are outperform by non-shields builds.
There is no such thing as a "shield build". You slot harness magicka to mitigate damage in certain fights. It's mandatory on every magicka class for endgame content.
i waa talking about pvp, and yes, you have to build to make shields effective, otherwise is pointless. That's why you dont see heavy armor builds with shields in general.1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ExcaliburESO wrote: »@MLGProPlayer
Ez m8 u have to invest into resist and hp also dont forget most magicka classes that used (exploited all the benefits of shieldstacking) have escape skills (cloak streak) , also since ur SPS will be lower (SPS stands for shield per second) u dont need to have that much magicka sustain invest more in resist healing max hp and u will be fine yes u wont have ez pz 2 click kills but well noone except shield stacker had it. Welcome to the world of templars wardens and dk boys!
I don't play sorc. In fact, my only 2 characters are a templar and warden. We rely on shields just as much as sorcs.1 -
Its partly a l2p issue... if you know mechanics then you shouldnt need shields in most parts of trials and especially with a semi competent healer.
But that is the point. The people learning to play need the back up of shields. This is very disheartening to those people. Imagine getting your first vMA clear then finding yourself locked out of the content overnight again. Or your in a progression trial group learning Mechanics but you can't survive anymore to learn. This might not be such a big deal for people who have learnt to play but for those learning to play this may well lock them out of content. Not to mention the frustration this will cause could put them off for good. With no or little new blood coming into endgame what then?3 -
visionality✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »How are magicka classes supposed to stay alive
They are not. ZOS wants them to die.Edited by visionality on September 18, 2018 1:59PM7 -
yahuhu✭
Your intellect is not able to think for raise your health and resists? All other classes do it 4 years and somehow survive completely without shields.3 -
BigBadVolk✭✭✭✭✭
Your intellect is not able to think for raise your health and resists? All other classes do it 4 years and somehow survive completely without shields.
also raising resists and health wont stop a one shot, neither a shield"The ass is similar to the opinion: Everyone has it, but no one cares about the others!"
I'm 120 years old2 -
yahuhu✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@yahuhu , all magicka builds in light armor have shields.
I meant without uber shields of corcs.
Give them a shield from the amount of health, I'll see how they be like it ...Edited by yahuhu on September 19, 2018 4:19PM0 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Popping the ward while standing there and continuing to try to facetank damage won't get you anywhere, you aren't a tank. This change encourages LA users to relocate more and avoid damage rather than soak it up with wards like a tank.
That being said I'd be fine if they reverted the crit change. Introducing both at the same time was a bit heavy handed. They don't need to revert the cast time or it'll just devolve back into face tanking with 2 - 3 wards, with the only change being LA users slotting more impreg.
Great idea except, stamina builds got far better mobility so relocating isn't really gonna work.
Still a good idea though, except, the superior performance of gap closers makes reloacting pretty much impossbile.
Well a decent idea ... except ... Swift doesnt really work b/c stamina builds can sprint longer than you can as a LA magicka build.
Glad you are ok with stamina builds face tanking or face-rofling large groups in open field and in structures.
Pretty balanced!
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Septimus_Magna✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pve its a buff pvp its more balanced. 100% into offensive should be invincible.
Its only a buff mitigation-wise. What good is a shield if you die trying to cast it?PC - EU (AD)Septimus Mezar - Altmer Sorcerer
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Ir0nB34r✭✭✭I think people are forgetting that the shield is also getting your resistances AND it will last longer.[XBOX][NA]
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Shinshadow✭✭✭✭Welcome to the land of stam... where you have a one second cast time, instead of relying on RNG to defend ya some.0 -
Shinshadow✭✭✭✭Light armor users will be alright. Like stam had to in the past... ya just gotta rely on your own style of self heals, and survivability more.
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Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shinshadow wrote: »Welcome to the land of stam... where you have a one second cast time, instead of relying on RNG to defend ya some.
Oh you mean that dodge roll that can be woven-in with your attacks and has no maximum amount of damage it mitigates?
Shields always had a delay which effectively gave them a cast time and consumed as much time as a dodge roll, expect that the opportunity costs for shields were higher due to having a limited amount they mitigate and having to sacrifice using an ability rather than a light attack in order to activate them.
So yes, stams have had it really hard and the new changes make magicka builds totally equal to stamina builds ... if you ignore dodge roll not requiring ability slot and still having lower opportunity costs, same goes for block, and the far superior mobolity of stamina builds. Oh and ofc you'd have to ignore that all 3 of these work perfectly fine in the lag-fest that is PvP, but magicka abilities don't. As I said ... totally equal!7 -
boombazookajd✭✭✭✭✭John_Falstaff wrote: »@Rex-Umbra , how's that buff in PvE? Imagine trying to shield up before resurrecting someone, and you're constantly getting interrupted (...and stunned, and put off balance). Or spinning on an isle in vMA, trying to do some damage while you're shielding up; or trying to refresh shields while you're running to a cleanse pool after you had poison plant popped under your feet.StrawberryKitsune wrote: »Its partly a l2p issue... if you know mechanics then you shouldnt need shields in most parts of trials and especially with a semi competent healer.
But that is the point. The people learning to play need the back up of shields. This is very disheartening to those people. Imagine getting your first vMA clear then finding yourself locked out of the content overnight again. Or your in a progression trial group learning Mechanics but you can't survive anymore to learn. This might not be such a big deal for people who have learnt to play but for those learning to play this may well lock them out of content. Not to mention the frustration this will cause could put them off for good. With no or little new blood coming into endgame what then?
this. so much this.
You're talking about a change that will fundamentally alter the way the game is played for mag toons OF EVERY CLASS. magDK's need harness in vMA, especially as you are learning it.
Folks, not every effing player in this game is a 780 with 40 more CP's unspent pumping out 595K+ scores in vMA with two or three vet trial clears and all end game gear.
The vast majority are still working their way through the game and this is going to absolutely smash those on the up. I'm 580-ish, have cleared vMA once (working on my second) and I can tell you right now, with 27k DPS, I NEED A SHIELD. It's the only thing that keeps me alive during the crystal phase..or gives me a change against the RNG poison plants in round 7 and getting to a pool.
This little tiny change affects EVERYONE in the end game pve community, not just sorcs in Cyrodil. Seriously, did the game go and forget there's this thing called PVE that makes up the gross majority of the game??Drathus Delenu- Dunmer magDk: Shehai Shatterer, Mageslayer, Stormproof, Peak Scaler, Clockwork Confounder, Orderly, Master Wizard, Cloudrest Hero, Undaunted, Dragonstar Arena Champion
Thoronir Rolston- Breton petsorc: Stormproof
Zaakazha-Redguard stamblade: Boethia's Scythe, Clockwork Confounder, Maelstrom Arena Champion, Dragonstar Arena Champion
Scrubs:
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Agronak gro'Mashul- Orc DK Tank
Valerya Hawkcroft- Breton healer
Zaaka- Imperial stamDK/crafter
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susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
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I think cloaking PvP stamblades are an untypical example of stamina builds in general. Yes they do need decent mag regen. Refreshing Path, though? As a stamblade? Fear and Shadow Image ... sure.Well, yeah, there are plenty of builds that do ... but it depends on if/how often you want to use cloak, refreshing path, shadow image, etc.
I was using Fossilize and wings on stam DK for a time, which was also quite hard on mag sustain. My point would be that these are specific builds. Having played stamina first, nothing prepared me for how constrained stamina is on a magicka class. I soon learnt that I better shield and reserve my stamina exclusively for break free and Forward Momentum. It's a hard and fast rule that isn't always true, but for decent opponents who CC on cooldown, and possibly root as well, it is completely true. You might also need to dodge roll out of that meteor, regardless of shield. Not having stamina is life or death for a magicka character in a way that not having magicka, as a stamina character, just isn't.
Anyway, where were we going with this?
Being unable to cloak when pressured with by good players with DoTs, Bleeds, etc on a medium armor StamNB is a death sentence. Most non-ganker medium armor stamblades or the so called "cloakrollerblades" have a significantly high amount of either mag pool or mag regen or even both.1 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StrawberryKitsune wrote: »Its partly a l2p issue... if you know mechanics then you shouldnt need shields in most parts of trials and especially with a semi competent healer.
But that is the point. The people learning to play need the back up of shields. This is very disheartening to those people. Imagine getting your first vMA clear then finding yourself locked out of the content overnight again. Or your in a progression trial group learning Mechanics but you can't survive anymore to learn. This might not be such a big deal for people who have learnt to play but for those learning to play this may well lock them out of content. Not to mention the frustration this will cause could put them off for good. With no or little new blood coming into endgame what then?
Most stam classes, especially non-Redguard ones go through downright hell on their first run through vMA. Anyone who uses a ranged magicka build with shields is basically having a far easier time than stam in vMA.1 -
acw37162✭✭✭✭✭
✭To the original poster;
Your making the devs point for them, the answer is to emphasize the importance of healers.4 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorcs now easily invest some into resistances and their shields are stronger and last longer all with a 1 second cast time. That seems fair.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Its partly a l2p issue... if you know mechanics then you shouldnt need shields in most parts of trials and especially with a semi competent healer.
If you are outside of Craglorn and set to vet, you need to be running a shield in trials. Sure there are “parts of trials” where they are not needed, but I prefer to finish the whole trial.
Even within Craglorn there are times they help. Someone recently brought up vHRC Warrior’s Starfall, which will be extremely difficult to survive in Hard Mode if shielding takes 2s and forces you to drop block.Edited by WrathOfInnos on September 19, 2018 10:56PM4 -
Alaztor91✭✭✭✭✭
✭If ZOS is so stuck on the idea that healers feel that they are not needed because of damage shields, then why don't they make enemies/bosses in dungeons,arenas,trials, etc do a small % of their damage as oblivion damage? That would bypass shields and assuming that it were a significant amount wouldn't that require dedicated healing to compensate?2 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Dodging and blocking requires stamina and stamina regen, which magicka classes don't have.
Magicka classes had shields before, which consumed magicka. With shields being effectively removed from the game, we are defenseless.
Backbar ice staff, block with Magicka.0 -
Drummerx04✭✭✭✭✭
✭This 'nerf' to shields and the sentiment across the board is very reminiscent of (correct me if im wrong on this one) Thieves guild patch when the time of the shields were dropped to 6s and people cried bloody murder for weeeeeeks only for Sorc to be the top PvE DPS for months there after.
A good player will adapt and overcome, this isn't the end for sorc.
The primary concern with the duration drop was that we couldn't keep the wards up preemptively to fend off gankers or whatever as easily. But in heavy combat the shields barely lasted 1-2 seconds, so the shields mostly maintained their utility.
This change prevents the guaranteed shield on self from being used in response to incoming damage. And the sorc became the top dps around homestead with the ridiculous pet changes.PC/NA - Nightfighters, Raid Leader and Officer
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IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can still shield up... There is just a cast time of 1 second and tbh that's really not an issue
Do you know how significant 1 second is in games like this? 1 second in this game can mean life or death next second.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel3
