usmcjdking wrote: »ColoredScreams wrote: »I have concerns.
For perspective, I play stamina templar in PvP. I welcome the repentance change but stamplars in PvP will no longer have a reliable uptime on minor protection (and minor vitality) as they did before. 8% damage mitigation is huge.In PvP, stamplars are not exclusively casting Biting Jabs on cooldown, ever. They are sprinting, rolling, healing, applying bleeds, casting shuffle what feels like every 3 seconds to stay out of roots, purging, reapplying buffs, dots, and hots, ulting, repenting, getting into melee range, moving to line of sight etc... therefore having 3 seconds of minor protection tied directly to a 1.1 second channeled ability and Javelin, which is a blockable and dodgeable low damage stun that not all stamina templars use, will inevitably result in very poor uptime for minor protection (and less importantly minor vitality) on stamplar, as opposed to how it is now: near 100% with restoring focus. I understand restoring focus now restores some stamina, but it also now costs stamina. Even if there is a small over all net increase over 20 seconds of stamina gained you will have to directly use that gained stamina for expensive defensive abilities, such as rolling or vigor, just to try to make up for the loss of reliable minor protection and minor vitality. The restoring focus change is not a buff to stamina templars, players will realize that sustain is equally as difficult as the previous patches because they are taking 8% more damage and receiving 8% less healing for the majority of the fight.Spear Wall: This ability now grants you Minor Protection for 1.5/3 seconds after activating an Aedric Spear ability.
Please allow stamina templar to have reliable access to minor protection. My suggestions would be to leave it on restoring focus but remove minor vitality, or increase the duration granted from the passive significantly, at least 10 seconds from 3 seconds, so it is more in line with the previous patches uptime. Stamplars will not jab when they need to play defensive.
Now let's talk about something equally as relevant: Jabs doing 25% less damage to major evasion and 5% less damage to minor evasion. The new changes make evasion very easily accessible to nearly every class in the game. It is now attainable through sets (including sets like gossamer that grant multiple targets major evasion), weapon skills, class skills, and an armor skill. I am aware that there was an 8% damage increase to jabs (although only to the one closest target), but this will lead to an overall damage nerf to Biting Jabs. Please reconsider just an 8% damage increase, the ability already does so little damage to other targets that are not the primary target. My suggestion is to increase the damage it does to all other targets that are NOT the closet enemy by a notable amount in addition to an overall damage buff to the skill. This may still yield an overall damage nerf to Biting Jabs against targets that have access to evasion (which is now very easily accessible), but it brings stamina templars overall damage more in line with previous patches and provides an important role for this classes signature ability.
Note: I do not think the rotation changes to jabs will be nearly enough. Most stamina templar will already be facing towards the enemy when jabbing, if you get rooted while jabbing, the majority of the time the remainder of the jabs will land directionally until they are outranged ("kited") by an enemy who is walking back. The issue with jabs vs roots is not about direction, it is about melee range. If jabs granted a brief amount of snare immunity, for example 2-3 seconds, this will be less of an issue.
If the changes for stamina templar remain the same, Murkmire will be an overall nerf to stamplars defense, healing, and damage as well as sustain because the stamina restored from restoring focus will have to directly be used try and make up for these new significant losses.
-@inscentia " Kiri "
I don't agree have the same concerns you have but this is a tremendous post.
CatchMeTrolling wrote: »There’s some really good changes this patch but the major evasion change is way too strong for sweep/jab users.
Think stamplar will be god tier next patch against anyone not running evasion. Restoring focus and empowering sweep is looking good. I already back barred it on my stamplar as a defense ult.
CatchMeTrolling wrote: »There’s some really good changes this patch but the major evasion change is way too strong for sweep/jab users.
Think stamplar will be god tier next patch against anyone not running evasion. Restoring focus and empowering sweep is looking good. I already back barred it on my stamplar as a defense ult.
With spin-to-win being a thing, I think we'll see more people finding a spot for evasion. Im trying to figure out a spot for it on my stamplar. Not a fan of shuffle as its expensive and Gets a bit redundant with FM which does a better job. Might finally run dual wield now. If that stam set goes live, and I run it with Cyrodiils ward, then get some dual wield axes going; it will be a bleed build going on and the targets are not going to be able to heal.
ColoredScreams wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »ColoredScreams wrote: »I have concerns.
For perspective, I play stamina templar in PvP. I welcome the repentance change but stamplars in PvP will no longer have a reliable uptime on minor protection (and minor vitality) as they did before. 8% damage mitigation is huge.In PvP, stamplars are not exclusively casting Biting Jabs on cooldown, ever. They are sprinting, rolling, healing, applying bleeds, casting shuffle what feels like every 3 seconds to stay out of roots, purging, reapplying buffs, dots, and hots, ulting, repenting, getting into melee range, moving to line of sight etc... therefore having 3 seconds of minor protection tied directly to a 1.1 second channeled ability and Javelin, which is a blockable and dodgeable low damage stun that not all stamina templars use, will inevitably result in very poor uptime for minor protection (and less importantly minor vitality) on stamplar, as opposed to how it is now: near 100% with restoring focus. I understand restoring focus now restores some stamina, but it also now costs stamina. Even if there is a small over all net increase over 20 seconds of stamina gained you will have to directly use that gained stamina for expensive defensive abilities, such as rolling or vigor, just to try to make up for the loss of reliable minor protection and minor vitality. The restoring focus change is not a buff to stamina templars, players will realize that sustain is equally as difficult as the previous patches because they are taking 8% more damage and receiving 8% less healing for the majority of the fight.Spear Wall: This ability now grants you Minor Protection for 1.5/3 seconds after activating an Aedric Spear ability.
Please allow stamina templar to have reliable access to minor protection. My suggestions would be to leave it on restoring focus but remove minor vitality, or increase the duration granted from the passive significantly, at least 10 seconds from 3 seconds, so it is more in line with the previous patches uptime. Stamplars will not jab when they need to play defensive.
Now let's talk about something equally as relevant: Jabs doing 25% less damage to major evasion and 5% less damage to minor evasion. The new changes make evasion very easily accessible to nearly every class in the game. It is now attainable through sets (including sets like gossamer that grant multiple targets major evasion), weapon skills, class skills, and an armor skill. I am aware that there was an 8% damage increase to jabs (although only to the one closest target), but this will lead to an overall damage nerf to Biting Jabs. Please reconsider just an 8% damage increase, the ability already does so little damage to other targets that are not the primary target. My suggestion is to increase the damage it does to all other targets that are NOT the closet enemy by a notable amount in addition to an overall damage buff to the skill. This may still yield an overall damage nerf to Biting Jabs against targets that have access to evasion (which is now very easily accessible), but it brings stamina templars overall damage more in line with previous patches and provides an important role for this classes signature ability.
Note: I do not think the rotation changes to jabs will be nearly enough. Most stamina templar will already be facing towards the enemy when jabbing, if you get rooted while jabbing, the majority of the time the remainder of the jabs will land directionally until they are outranged ("kited") by an enemy who is walking back. The issue with jabs vs roots is not about direction, it is about melee range. If jabs granted a brief amount of snare immunity, for example 2-3 seconds, this will be less of an issue.
If the changes for stamina templar remain the same, Murkmire will be an overall nerf to stamplars defense, healing, and damage as well as sustain because the stamina restored from restoring focus will have to directly be used try and make up for these new significant losses.
-@inscentia " Kiri "
I don't agree have the same concerns you have but this is a tremendous post.
what part(s) don't you agree with?
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Don't celebrate too soon. This looks far too good to last. Also if Bshield ends up with a cast time on it, its going to completely demotivate me to try all the builds running through my mind right now.
usmcjdking wrote: »
I, personally, feel that a lot of the internal comparison here is being stacked against the other stamina classes vice looking at the class objectively within a vacuum and how it approaches specific situations.
AOE damage, to include jabs being undodgeable, is wholly destructive to medium armor that cannot reliably get away from them with the aid of a mobility escape especially in lieu of jabs new targeting. Medium armor was tremendously weak versus jabs (and any AOE damage for that matter) so getting some much needed passive resistance to AOE damage to damage that medium armor cannot otherwise mitigate affords medium some much needed EHP.
The removal of Minor Vitality and implementation of stamina sustain is IMO a moot discussion. Paired with new repentance, I am of the opinion that the gigantic sustain increase of Stamplar can allow it to have a more aggressive build, making up for the loss in healing in gains made with wep dmg/stam/crit/resists/hp. I personally value the double repentance heal dipping & sustain increase to be a net buff.
The uptime on Minor Prot is an overall nerf, but it's available when it's needed - when jabbing relentlessly. DW setups which have a longer gap in between jabs than a 2H build will see an offensive nerf in their defensive capabilities whereas 2H will likely maintain it's aggressive posture. The gain to cheap Major Protection that can last 6-12 seconds depending on your situation is waaaaaaaay too good and IMO cannot be ignored.
IMO the trade offs, whilst a bit jarring on paper, do not appear to be anything that cannot be built around by gearing.
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Don't celebrate too soon. This looks far too good to last. Also if Bshield ends up with a cast time on it, its going to completely demotivate me to try all the builds running through my mind right now.
It shouldn't, they never mentioned all shield will get the cast time just sorc and LA.
I'm in love with the changes to Templar. A+ job.
The only minor complaint so far is that Resto Focus now costs stamina - it's unnecessary and completely ridiculous logically that this skill would cost stamina. It should cost magicka.
usmcjdking wrote: »ColoredScreams wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »ColoredScreams wrote: »I have concerns.
For perspective, I play stamina templar in PvP. I welcome the repentance change but stamplars in PvP will no longer have a reliable uptime on minor protection (and minor vitality) as they did before. 8% damage mitigation is huge.In PvP, stamplars are not exclusively casting Biting Jabs on cooldown, ever. They are sprinting, rolling, healing, applying bleeds, casting shuffle what feels like every 3 seconds to stay out of roots, purging, reapplying buffs, dots, and hots, ulting, repenting, getting into melee range, moving to line of sight etc... therefore having 3 seconds of minor protection tied directly to a 1.1 second channeled ability and Javelin, which is a blockable and dodgeable low damage stun that not all stamina templars use, will inevitably result in very poor uptime for minor protection (and less importantly minor vitality) on stamplar, as opposed to how it is now: near 100% with restoring focus. I understand restoring focus now restores some stamina, but it also now costs stamina. Even if there is a small over all net increase over 20 seconds of stamina gained you will have to directly use that gained stamina for expensive defensive abilities, such as rolling or vigor, just to try to make up for the loss of reliable minor protection and minor vitality. The restoring focus change is not a buff to stamina templars, players will realize that sustain is equally as difficult as the previous patches because they are taking 8% more damage and receiving 8% less healing for the majority of the fight.Spear Wall: This ability now grants you Minor Protection for 1.5/3 seconds after activating an Aedric Spear ability.
Please allow stamina templar to have reliable access to minor protection. My suggestions would be to leave it on restoring focus but remove minor vitality, or increase the duration granted from the passive significantly, at least 10 seconds from 3 seconds, so it is more in line with the previous patches uptime. Stamplars will not jab when they need to play defensive.
Now let's talk about something equally as relevant: Jabs doing 25% less damage to major evasion and 5% less damage to minor evasion. The new changes make evasion very easily accessible to nearly every class in the game. It is now attainable through sets (including sets like gossamer that grant multiple targets major evasion), weapon skills, class skills, and an armor skill. I am aware that there was an 8% damage increase to jabs (although only to the one closest target), but this will lead to an overall damage nerf to Biting Jabs. Please reconsider just an 8% damage increase, the ability already does so little damage to other targets that are not the primary target. My suggestion is to increase the damage it does to all other targets that are NOT the closet enemy by a notable amount in addition to an overall damage buff to the skill. This may still yield an overall damage nerf to Biting Jabs against targets that have access to evasion (which is now very easily accessible), but it brings stamina templars overall damage more in line with previous patches and provides an important role for this classes signature ability.
Note: I do not think the rotation changes to jabs will be nearly enough. Most stamina templar will already be facing towards the enemy when jabbing, if you get rooted while jabbing, the majority of the time the remainder of the jabs will land directionally until they are outranged ("kited") by an enemy who is walking back. The issue with jabs vs roots is not about direction, it is about melee range. If jabs granted a brief amount of snare immunity, for example 2-3 seconds, this will be less of an issue.
If the changes for stamina templar remain the same, Murkmire will be an overall nerf to stamplars defense, healing, and damage as well as sustain because the stamina restored from restoring focus will have to directly be used try and make up for these new significant losses.
-@inscentia " Kiri "
I don't agree have the same concerns you have but this is a tremendous post.
what part(s) don't you agree with?
I, personally, feel that a lot of the internal comparison here is being stacked against the other stamina classes vice looking at the class objectively within a vacuum and how it approaches specific situations.
AOE damage, to include jabs being undodgeable, is wholly destructive to medium armor that cannot reliably get away from them with the aid of a mobility escape especially in lieu of jabs new targeting. Medium armor was tremendously weak versus jabs (and any AOE damage for that matter) so getting some much needed passive resistance to AOE damage to damage that medium armor cannot otherwise mitigate affords medium some much needed EHP.
The removal of Minor Vitality and implementation of stamina sustain is IMO a moot discussion. Paired with new repentance, I am of the opinion that the gigantic sustain increase of Stamplar can allow it to have a more aggressive build, making up for the loss in healing in gains made with wep dmg/stam/crit/resists/hp. I personally value the double repentance heal dipping & sustain increase to be a net buff.
The uptime on Minor Prot is an overall nerf, but it's available when it's needed - when jabbing relentlessly. DW setups which have a longer gap in between jabs than a 2H build will see an offensive nerf in their defensive capabilities whereas 2H will likely maintain it's aggressive posture. The gain to cheap Major Protection that can last 6-12 seconds depending on your situation is waaaaaaaay too good and IMO cannot be ignored.
IMO the trade offs, whilst a bit jarring on paper, do not appear to be anything that cannot be built around by gearing.
Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
Sun Shield:
I'd still prefer to use my magicka on a heal at 2x the effectiveness. At 35k HP and 25k magicka Honor the Dead heals for more than 1/2 of the shield provided by this skill, and is also cheaper if used once every 6s. Shields need to be the last line of defense before HP is taken if this is supposed to be the Templar equivalent of a proper HP% heal. Most notably it has to benefit from block.
Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
This is straight crazy talk my man - Repentance is the bee's knees, the pig's wings, and the ant's pants. One of juiciest skills in the game.
CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
Sun Shield:
I'd still prefer to use my magicka on a heal at 2x the effectiveness. At 35k HP and 25k magicka Honor the Dead heals for more than 1/2 of the shield provided by this skill, and is also cheaper if used once every 6s. Shields need to be the last line of defense before HP is taken if this is supposed to be the Templar equivalent of a proper HP% heal. Most notably it has to benefit from block.
Stamplars get stam for rune now so having that extra stam after a kill will never be bad . Repentance was bad because stamplars had no passive regen, now they do.
Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
This is straight crazy talk my man - Repentance is the bee's knees, the pig's wings, and the ant's pants. One of juiciest skills in the game.
Please tell me how juicy it is when you're main tanking in vAS.CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Repentance:
Nice to know you care, but it's still a useless skill. Any effect that uses corpses or has "when your enemy dies" in it should at best be the flavor, not the main effect of a skill. When the enemy dies the fight is over, you don't need whatever the skill gives you. So it's still horrible design, even if it's 1% less horrible now.
Sun Shield:
I'd still prefer to use my magicka on a heal at 2x the effectiveness. At 35k HP and 25k magicka Honor the Dead heals for more than 1/2 of the shield provided by this skill, and is also cheaper if used once every 6s. Shields need to be the last line of defense before HP is taken if this is supposed to be the Templar equivalent of a proper HP% heal. Most notably it has to benefit from block.
Stamplars get stam for rune now so having that extra stam after a kill will never be bad . Repentance was bad because stamplars had no passive regen, now they do.
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the skill is useless. There is literally 0 reason to even morph it. In fact your group will be better off if you don't.
I'm in love with the changes to Templar. A+ job.
The only minor complaint so far is that Resto Focus now costs stamina - it's unnecessary and completely ridiculous logically that this skill would cost stamina. It should cost magicka.
I really really like that the Evasion buff now soft-counters typical Templar/storc/Warden PvP builds. The PTS changes overall seem to lend more to a single-target combat style and less to a PBAOE style that just lets players spam AoEs and get kills (looking at you Steel Tardnado, SubAss, DBoS, Jabs...)
I also love that Radiant Destruction has been made more efficient and that you can actually kind of use jabs while rooted. And a Repentance feast for all the 'plars! Mmmm