What defines a "TANK" in the Group Finder? (+personal story)

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@Jayman1000 , let's not pretend none of us have read TOS - I've quoted it, and kicking for reading quest dialogue is a perfect example of interfering with their gameplay. You're abusing the system by queueing up to go through the content in your own unintended way that disrupts others' experience. Can play words all you want, but people are free to report you based on this quote from the terms.

And no, you're not entitled to fast-run experience. Rushing ahead of the group certainly doesn't constitute normal flow of gameplay. Imagine, you're not even entitled to rewards that result from using the finder - it's not like they're yours to collect, so "but I only can get rewards by using finder" is not a valid justification for anything. It's not the pesky system pushes you. It's just you. You want those rewards, but you don't want to accept what comes with the package.

Either way, if you're about to start proving that you're not in violation for kicking questing people - you've chosen wrong person, I've quoted matching paragraph, and I really hope you'll get to discuss it with ZOS eventually. This thread is about what tanks should do, so I'm giving it to people who're actually on-topic.

Jayman1000 · September 2018

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@VaranisArano , falls under the chapter of disrupting other players' experience. "...conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within a Service..." - kicking people for doing quests fits here perfectly, and I absolutely approve of reporting players for it.

If someone in your group does not play the way you like then you are free to to votekick them. Votekicking because someone, through the dungeon finder, wants to do quest taking a lot otime, can hardly be called disrupting others playing experience. Reporting for this is imo tangent to abuse of the report system, especially if done consistently. What about the the playing experience of the guy that just wants the dungeon complete as fast as possible? I dont think his experience is less worthy than the guy that wants to do the quests at snails pace? Imo both hold equal value to their game play experience, and both have equal rights to initiate a vote kick the other if they do not want to play with him/her for any reason whatsoever (The exception being votekicking simply to grief of course.). Opinions on how morally justifiable one or the other may be may vary, but from a TOS point of view you can votekick for whatever reason you may wish, bar griefing.

careful in what you say. ff14 had/has similar issues and the devs ended up favoring the people who wanna do quests vs ppl like you.

they changed 2 story dungeons to force cut scenes to plat every time you run it. Also, the reason you vote kick people out can be considered griefing as people have right to get their quests done. What is wrong with you getting a group together if you wanna speed run stuff? dungeons are a group effort, and proper group effort is communication, and coming to an agreement if more ppl wanna get the quest done, then suck it up, same for for questing.

More often then not quests are a 1 time thing, and it shows a good community to help people out instead of forcing a speed, that not all players can do.

Im not sure why I should be careful what I say? Personally I wouldn't kick someone for doing quests at snails pace, I would just run ahead and not wait for them. So Im not one of those people; I never votekick unless it's with, imo, good moral justification like racism, obnoxious chat messages, griefing, and then the ocassional one where the tank or healer is just terrible.

As of now ZOS has not indicated in any way one or the other of the two, slow/quests ppl vs speedrunners, so I think it's reasonable to assume there is as yet no favouritism here. ffxiv devs is notoriously restrictive, I dont know if it's a japanese thing? but anyway I dont see ZOS being anything like that at this point. tbh I dont think zos cares about such things really.

"What is wrong with you getting a group together if you wanna speed run stuff?"

Takes too much time imo, much easier to just use the dungeon finder. yeah I know some will be angry, but I dont do it to make people angry of course. It's simply the way I want to play, and the game gives me the tools to do so quite openly and easily.

Jayman1000 · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

You're abusing the system by queueing up to go through the content in your own unintended way that disrupts others' experience. Can play words all you want, but people are free to report you based on this quote from the terms.

In my own intended way... hmm eso has always been alot about playing in your own way, do what you want. So actually I don't think it is just my own unintended way. I definitely do not agree that running ahead not waiting for quest people is disrupting of their experience, I simply do not see how that is the case. but to be fair if people need a little time to end the quest and they ask for it I wait so the dungeon wont kick them out before the quest person has allowed them to hand the quest in. In that Im actually being a lot nicer than many others. However if they insist on reading all the text an listening to the dialogue, I have not patience for that, but rarely do anyone demand that. It's an oversight by the dungeon and quest designers that you are not allowed to stay in the dungeon alone to finish the quests if everyone leaves. Pretty sure that was never the intention?

The reporting function is not something that should be used lightly like that; falsely reporting also wastes zos support time.

abigfishy · September 2018

So today in Selene's Web our "tank" had 17k health, no taunts, no shields, a 2H and bow as weapons. I asked the best player in the group if they wanted to kick the "tank" but he said it wouldn't matter as we would complete the dungeon easily anyway.

Normally I would kick people like this as a matter of principle.

NyassaV · September 2018

Can we just say git gud (unlock more skills and maybe carry extra gear) and be done with this conversation

Azuramoonstar · September 2018

Jayman1000 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

You're abusing the system by queueing up to go through the content in your own unintended way that disrupts others' experience. Can play words all you want, but people are free to report you based on this quote from the terms.

In my own intended way... hmm eso has always been alot about playing in your own way, do what you want. So actually I don't think it is just my own unintended way. I definitely do not agree that running ahead not waiting for quest people is disrupting of their experience, I simply do not see how that is the case. but to be fair if people need a little time to end the quest and they ask for it I wait so the dungeon wont kick them out before the quest person has allowed them to hand the quest in. In that Im actually being a lot nicer than many others. However if they insist on reading all the text an listening to the dialogue, I have not patience for that, but rarely do anyone demand that. It's an oversight by the dungeon and quest designers that you are not allowed to stay in the dungeon alone to finish the quests if everyone leaves. Pretty sure that was never the intention?

The reporting function is not something that should be used lightly like that; falsely reporting also wastes zos support time.

it is a disruption because a good team waits for everyone, leaving people behind is a scummy move. It can be seen as griefing as well, there is 0 harm in waiting. ff11 a much more time consuming game when I played it, team mates would wait for others during quest dungeons, or if ppl had quests while in lvling dungeons. When if a group the concept of "your time" stops as in a group it is everyones time.

I used to play mmo 2 hours a day, i still waited to help others, and if i couldn't i got replacement. If people need to do the quest, communicate. Ask them politely if they can put the quest on hold and willing to run through, if not be considerate and willing to help them out. If not, leave or asked to be removed saying you have have time.

Not giving a rats behind and running ahead is griefing as teams are meant to work as teams. Not suppose to leave team members behind.

commdt · September 2018

Shraar wrote: »

You should stop watching Netflix.

Merlin13KAGL · September 2018

McCloskey10_5_13 wrote: »

raj72616a wrote: »

there is *no* aoe taunt in the game.
caltrops, endless hail, nothing's gonna get all the mobs on me, i aggro them, they go for you squishy dps. there is no threat no hate mechanics in the game, it's just taunted or not taunted. and we only have single target taunt.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/391895/a-guide-to-aggro

If I'm reading this right, an initial AOE should give you ~7 seconds of aggro from anyone it touches, which you should be able to maintain as long as you keep a DOT ticking on them (mechanics aside). This is why people use those AOE DOTs like caltrops or blockade to open. So as long as your group lets you strike first, it seems like you will have unlimited 7 second AOE taunts using whatever AOE you want, as long as you keep the DOT rolling.

@McCloskey10_5_13 the only thing this 'guarantees' is that the mobs will enter combat.

Beyond that, it's usually a combination of line of sight and proximity/distance. If the tank is the closest one, they'll often head there first. There is nothing, other than a proper taunt that guarantees them to stay.

Shouldn't matter how much damage the DPS are putting out. But as soon as that 7 is up, if you have dropped your DOT, the next thing that touches them, including a AOE heal, will aggro them for another 7, now on that person.

This is intuitive how? If someone walks up to a group and hits them with a large feather pillow, it may draw their attention and provoke. If someone or someones then proceed to hit the same with 10 pound sledgehammers, who do you think is really going to keep aggro?

If taunt wasn't necessary, no one would bother using taunt.

Now what you may experience is that as long as distance from group is sufficient, and continued damage is applied, it may appear that mobs stay aggro'd without taunt. Axes in vAA are a prime example of this scenario, and will happily slip away from time to time if proper taunt is not applied.

TL;DR; You're gambling. If it's a trash mob, it may not be a big deal. If it's a boss, a mini-boss, or a heavy hitter, saving some resources may end up wiping your party.

To all the ones insisting RDF should be run a certain way (slow run, quest run, speed run): You're all mistaken.

There are two things you should expect from RDF:

People should be able to at least half way perform their assigned role.
You should expect to be able to clear in a reasonable fashion, in a reasonable amount of time.

If you go into RDF with any other expectations, you may get lucky, but there's a 75% chance you're more likely to get disappointed. RDF is for clears, and clears only. Any other requirements require a premade.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@Merlin13KAGL , a "clear" is a very vague notion and it implies nothing on how the run should proceed. As are "reasonable fashion" and "reasonable amount of time", I don't think you'll be able to provide strict definitions for those.

On another hand, TOS provides wording: "...normal flow of gameplay and dialogue...". New players have every right to queue (it's one of the few ways for them to find others to do content with) and have their normal gameplay, which includes the quest, more so that it's not repeatable. There is always a human factor, and (something I feel you meant to say) to eliminate part of misunderstandings, it's best to run with people you know, but I maintain that preventing people from doing their quest in dungeons is disruption of their gameplay, and using finder does not automatically strip them off their rights.

RavenSworn · September 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

McCloskey10_5_13 wrote: »

raj72616a wrote: »

there is *no* aoe taunt in the game.
caltrops, endless hail, nothing's gonna get all the mobs on me, i aggro them, they go for you squishy dps. there is no threat no hate mechanics in the game, it's just taunted or not taunted. and we only have single target taunt.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/391895/a-guide-to-aggro

If I'm reading this right, an initial AOE should give you ~7 seconds of aggro from anyone it touches, which you should be able to maintain as long as you keep a DOT ticking on them (mechanics aside). This is why people use those AOE DOTs like caltrops or blockade to open. So as long as your group lets you strike first, it seems like you will have unlimited 7 second AOE taunts using whatever AOE you want, as long as you keep the DOT rolling.

@McCloskey10_5_13 the only thing this 'guarantees' is that the mobs will enter combat.

Beyond that, it's usually a combination of line of sight and proximity/distance. If the tank is the closest one, they'll often head there first. There is nothing, other than a proper taunt that guarantees them to stay.

Shouldn't matter how much damage the DPS are putting out. But as soon as that 7 is up, if you have dropped your DOT, the next thing that touches them, including a AOE heal, will aggro them for another 7, now on that person.

This is intuitive how? If someone walks up to a group and hits them with a large feather pillow, it may draw their attention and provoke. If someone or someones then proceed to hit the same with 10 pound sledgehammers, who do you think is really going to keep aggro?

If taunt wasn't necessary, no one would bother using taunt.

Now what you may experience is that as long as distance from group is sufficient, and continued damage is applied, it may appear that mobs stay aggro'd without taunt. Axes in vAA are a prime example of this scenario, and will happily slip away from time to time if proper taunt is not applied.

TL;DR; You're gambling. If it's a trash mob, it may not be a big deal. If it's a boss, a mini-boss, or a heavy hitter, saving some resources may end up wiping your party.

To all the ones insisting RDF should be run a certain way (slow run, quest run, speed run): You're all mistaken.

There are two things you should expect from RDF:
People should be able to at least half way perform their assigned role.

You should expect to be able to clear in a reasonable fashion, in a reasonable amount of time.

If you go into RDF with any other expectations, you may get lucky, but there's a 75% chance you're more likely to get disappointed. RDF is for clears, and clears only. Any other requirements require a premade.

Where'd you get that idea? Rdf is for clears... I'm genuinely looking for it's definition ingame.

Rdf is just a tool. There's no other ways to it. It's a tool. How you use that tool is up to us but the thing is here we need to share this tool with others. The key word here is share. So naturally we will be accountable to others use of the tool as well. Just a few seconds of "Hey guys, I know it's been a long wait but I rather would like this run to be fast if possible." "hi guys, doing quest" "afternoon people, gonna take abit of time reading some of the text, if you aren't for it, you're welcome to grab the next group."

It doesn't hurt to be nice and it certainly doesn't waste any other people's time if you were upfront with what you wanted in the first place.

Running ahead killing mobs while the group is still lagging behind without telling? A-s-s hat.

Listening to every conversation and smelling all the flowers along the way without informing others first?
Same hat.

Again it's about being honest with your intentions as you get in the group. Too many people are just thinking of themselves first before the group. It's a Random Dungeon group finder, not a solo finder.

Leocaran · September 2018

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

Doing a dungeon in a rush is counterproductive. I'm one of those who likes to listen to the quest giver or AT LEAST read its text, but I totally gave up trying it on dungeons, because I either skip the text and pray for the group to complete the requirements or get kicked for slowing the pace.
I understand that no everyone has the patience to listen a NPC speech, but sometimes we cant even skip because the NPC comes sloooooooooowy to the place before giving you the next quest (i'm looking at you, Tempest Island).

Yes, I haven't read any of the dungeon quests even once. Skipskipskipskip. :'( I'm happy I had at least opportunity to finish them and get skillpoints. I read that people can go through dungeons (normal at least) solo at high levels, so I probably could explore them sometime. But is there a way to repeat dungeons' quests (without rewards)?

By the way, I constantly read about DPS 30k and more. But this is for Cp100+ characters, right? What is 'normal' DPS for chars <50 lvl?

Merlin13KAGL · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Merlin13KAGL , a "clear" is a very vague notion and it implies nothing on how the run should proceed. As are "reasonable fashion" and "reasonable amount of time", I don't think you'll be able to provide strict definitions for those.

On another hand, TOS provides wording: "...normal flow of gameplay and dialogue...". New players have every right to queue (it's one of the few ways for them to find others to do content with) and have their normal gameplay, which includes the quest, more so that it's not repeatable. There is always a human factor, and (something I feel you meant to say) to eliminate part of misunderstandings, it's best to run with people you know, but I maintain that preventing people from doing their quest in dungeons is disruption of their gameplay, and using finder does not automatically strip them off their rights.

@John_Falstaff A clear means you get to and complete the end boss. In the case of pledges, a clear mean also includes any mini-bosses required. It could also include satisfying quest requirements. This directly ties in to a capable group with capable roles.

"Reasonable" is defined by the masses. 'Typical, standard, average" would be appropriate substitutes. It means you shouldn't expect Banished Cells I to last 90 minutes. (This also means not skipping boss loot, but equally not checking every container in the place.) It also means you shouldn't expect Fang Lair to last 10.

I'm not saying new players (or Veteran players) don't have the right to queue. I am saying if you expect anything more than the items listed, you're not always going to have successful results.

Groups will often be accommodating if a certain request if made known upfront ('side boss," "full clear, please," or "Quest/quest turn in.") It's not a matter of stripping anyone of their rights. The simple reality is it only takes one person unwilling to accommodate or with different intention in mind to void the purpose of another.

Anything beyond the two basic things I listed are, in fact, not rights at all. RDF is merely a tool. If you have any expectations or requirements beyond, it may not be the appropriate tool.

RDF gives you a random group, for a random dungeon, and some bonus rewards. Nothing more. Nothing less.

The capable speed runner has no more right to kick the quester than the quester has right to kick the speed runner.

"Reasonable" is determined by the average individual. It's an unwritten code of conduct / level of courtesy one person affords another in such a situation.

Most non-new "reasonable" people have a pretty good idea what that does (and does not) entail.

TL;DR; It's a group event. No one person's desires trump the other three. That is what premades are for. Any result of the tool use beyond a premade is, by its very nature, random.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@John_Falstaff A clear means you get to and complete the end boss. In the case of pledges, a clear mean also includes any mini-bosses required. It could also include satisfying quest requirements. This directly ties in to a capable group with capable roles.

"Reasonable" is defined by the masses. 'Typical, standard, average" would be appropriate substitutes. It means you shouldn't expect Banished Cells I to last 90 minutes. (This also means not skipping boss loot, but equally not checking every container in the place.) It also means you shouldn't expect Fang Lair to last 10.

See, you've already provided multiple and quite vague definitions of 'clear'. In your view, it's end boss. (Why not intermediate? Why not other content, since it's there?) Could require when and at what conditions? Why pledge must (or must not) be part of the clear, where's written word about it? Same goes for 'defined by the masses'. You've just implied there are some arbitrary rules imposed on the user of dungeon finder: less than 90 minutes for BC1, not checking containers... Where'd it all come from? You started by saying that people should not have expectations from RDF except to have 'clear'... and then suddenly followed up by defining 'clear' to be a huge pile of your own arbitrary expectations. "Clear can go any way as long as it's the way I imagine it."

Yes, RDF is a tool. And by using it, as pretty much everything else in the game, players agree to abide TOS. It's the only document that provides them the rights, and I think the quoted place is clear enough. There's enough wiggle room for people to communicate and come to common terms, but some matters, TOS addresses quite clearly. Running forward while people read dialogue falls under that category.

Agenericname · September 2018

Leocaran wrote: »

Sailor_Palutena wrote: »

Doing a dungeon in a rush is counterproductive. I'm one of those who likes to listen to the quest giver or AT LEAST read its text, but I totally gave up trying it on dungeons, because I either skip the text and pray for the group to complete the requirements or get kicked for slowing the pace.
I understand that no everyone has the patience to listen a NPC speech, but sometimes we cant even skip because the NPC comes sloooooooooowy to the place before giving you the next quest (i'm looking at you, Tempest Island).

Yes, I haven't read any of the dungeon quests even once. Skipskipskipskip. :'( I'm happy I had at least opportunity to finish them and get skillpoints. I read that people can go through dungeons (normal at least) solo at high levels, so I probably could explore them sometime. But is there a way to repeat dungeons' quests (without rewards)?

By the way, I constantly read about DPS 30k and more. But this is for Cp100+ characters, right? What is 'normal' DPS for chars <50 lvl?

Unfortunately I dont believe that you can go back once you've completed the quest.

You can mention in chat prior to starting that you're during the quest. Most of the time people will accommodate that. I've only seen it be an issue once and the guys that did have an issue with it left. I've never seen anyone kicked for it, but if it happened it removes the penalty.

I started doing dungeons with a friend, on normal, at about CP160. Neither one of us were very good. We cleared most of 1 dungeons with a combined DPS less than 15k.

You could also seek out a guild that specializes in enjoying the content.

It's hard to say what's normal for below 50. It can vary greatly. I dont see someone's CP level unless they're above 50. I've heard you can through certain add ons, but I'm not using any that allow that. There is likely to be a substantial difference between someone just starting out and an alt of high level character. My DPS always seemed to hover around 8k-10k on a single target on my first character. If I made a new character today, with CP, gear, and a slightly better understanding of damage in ESO it would be considerably higher.

Merlin13KAGL · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@John_Falstaff A clear means you get to and complete the end boss. In the case of pledges, a clear mean also includes any mini-bosses required. It could also include satisfying quest requirements. This directly ties in to a capable group with capable roles.

"Reasonable" is defined by the masses. 'Typical, standard, average" would be appropriate substitutes. It means you shouldn't expect Banished Cells I to last 90 minutes. (This also means not skipping boss loot, but equally not checking every container in the place.) It also means you shouldn't expect Fang Lair to last 10.

See, you've already provided multiple and quite vague definitions of 'clear'. In your view, it's end boss. (Why not intermediate? Why not other content, since it's there?) Could require when and at what conditions? Why pledge must (or must not) be part of the clear, where's written word about it? Same goes for 'defined by the masses'. You've just implied there are some arbitrary rules imposed on the user of dungeon finder: less than 90 minutes for BC1, not checking containers... Where'd it all come from? You started by saying that people should not have expectations from RDF except to have 'clear'... and then suddenly followed up by defining 'clear' to be a huge pile of your own arbitrary expectations. "Clear can go any way as long as it's the way I imagine it."

Yes, RDF is a tool. And by using it, as pretty much everything else in the game, players agree to abide TOS. It's the only document that provides them the rights, and I think the quoted place is clear enough. There's enough wiggle room for people to communicate and come to common terms, but some matters, TOS addresses quite clearly. Running forward while people read dialogue falls under that category.

Now you're being ridiculous.

"A Clear"

"A Clear" is whatever triggers the final goal. In a plain old RDF, that's the end boss. Kill the end boss, get your bonus XP and rewards. (If you want to get down to brass tacks, this is the only "guaranteed expected outcome" and it's still going to require a capable group.)
If it happens to be a pledge run, killing the bosses necessary for pledge turn in is "a clear." this doesn't generally affect anything out of the ordinary, as most of the time, these are required to die in order to progress in the dungeon anyway.
Regarding dungeon quests, the above items will cover all necessary requirements, to my knowledge. The only added aspect is some NPC dialogue. There is no level of speed run obtainable which does not allow someone to interact with an NPC and then catch up. Again, that's if the groups are unwilling to accommodate or the quester didn't bother speaking up.

These three things, are generally not mutually exclusive.

So, "A clear" has been covered, quite definitively.

Examples of things not guaranteed:

Expecting your group to linger while you blog about every single NPC dialogue line and try every dialogue option.
Linking and trading gear at every single mob clear.
Reading aloud, in Morgan Freeman voice, the entirety of every readable items within the dungeon, dramatic pauses included for emphasis.
Checking every single container, every single nook and cranny, and then having to vendor 50 times to make space from said items.
Speed Run No Death Hard Mode Full Clears
Everyone stays from start to finish.
You getting to stay from start to finish.
Shared drops among group members
Dinner, drinks, and long lasting friendships that transcend time and space afterwards.
All party members will be above/below this CP level (dungeon entrance requirement notwithstanding)
Foreknowledge of all mechanics.
Expecting another group member to type out a full guide, complete with class guide and role guide in group chat.

Bonus things that may or may not be acceptable to a given group:

Side areas/side bosses.
Brief AFK pauses.
NPC quest dialogue
NPC final quest turn in.
Hard Mode or special achievement requests.
Not disbanding on completion so remaining party members can peruse the dungeon at their leasure.

Most of these things most groups won't have issue with if someone speaks up and isn't an ass about it.

On to "Reasonable"

"Reasonable" is based on typical and general consensus. Here's a hint: If most groups you join are becoming irritated or impatient, then the behavior is likely not reasonable.
Time frames come from experienced players having done multiple runs. Doesn't mean l33t, high end, 80k DPS speed runs, but a pretty solid average from the capable player base.
If there are some newer players, that timeframe can be extended a bit. More experienced players, expect it to be shorter. When it delves into the category of "No chance in hell with this group," (also easily determined by most experienced players), it quickly delves into "no longer reasonable."

Here's a bigger hint: If you can't muster up enough common sense to grasp the kinds of things being referred to here, then RDF is probably not the way to go. If you insist, expect lots of disappointment, and probably a lot of time requeuing, getting kicked, or finding replacement members.

No one is not abiding by (your interpretation of) the ToS in using RDF, nor are they "not abiding by the ToS" in running a dungeon a certain way or kicking a party member if they feel there's valid reason. You don't get to hold hostage an entire group because some aspect of a run inconveniences your character. *This is why there is option to initiate a vote kick from any character to any character. If it so happens that you're the odd man out, whichever side you're on, you can either adjust or depart.

Final hint: If you get kicked, it was a three man general consensus.

It's why it's an optional tool with minimal "guarantees" (which really aren't guaranteed at all) that can be expected to be met by any reasonable individual.

If someone was doing something in such a way that prevented you from ever reading said dialogue, then you'd have yourself a quality case of ToS violation. If they don't choose to acquiesce to every request, that does not. Report away, and see how fast it backfires.

It's like waiting for someone to exit a doorway before you enter. Common courtesy, and common sense. You don't need a plaque posted on the door to understand what's "reasonable," or at least you shouldn't.

If a typical group would not take issue, then it's probably reasonable. If you're starting to push those boundaries, it's probably not.

If you're doing your part and you're using RDF, you may expect a "Reasonable Clear." Nothing more, nothing less, strictly up to the decision of your group mates.

If you really need it spelled out to that level of detail, you should probably stick to premades.

Leocaran · September 2018

Agenericname wrote: »

Unfortunately I dont believe that you can go back once you've completed the quest.
You can mention in chat prior to starting that you're during the quest. Most of the time people will accommodate that. I've only seen it be an issue once and the guys that did have an issue with it left. I've never seen anyone kicked for it, but if it happened it removes the penalty.

Thanks for the detailed answer.

I guess I would have to go through lost dungeons with a new character actually doing quests and not skipping them. A pity.
At least now I will just go through new dungeons normally (warning party members). If someone would have any problems with it - it would be their problems. I just can't start dungeons only after cp160, it's too good a way to level characters (skillpoints

), get acceptable equipment and even have some fun if the run is without problems.
Ok, so 8k is acceptable for a new player I guess.

Merlin13KAGL · September 2018

Leocaran wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Unfortunately I dont believe that you can go back once you've completed the quest.
You can mention in chat prior to starting that you're during the quest. Most of the time people will accommodate that. I've only seen it be an issue once and the guys that did have an issue with it left. I've never seen anyone kicked for it, but if it happened it removes the penalty.

Thanks for the detailed answer.
I guess I would have to go through lost dungeons with a new character actually doing quests and not skipping them. A pity.
At least now I will just go through new dungeons normally (warning party members). If someone would have any problems with it - it would be their problems. I just can't start dungeons only after cp160, it's too good a way to level characters (skillpoints ), get acceptable equipment and even have some fun if the run is without problems.
Ok, so 8k is acceptable for a new player I guess.

@Leocaran most groups will let you quest if you mention it upfront.

Experienced players already know which dungeons are the chatty ones, and will adjust accordingly. In most cases, they'll simply clear some trash mobs while you talk, not affecting your quest immersion in any negative fashion.

As far as turn in or exploration after, ask them ahead of time not to disband. They can still port out and do what they need to to without affecting you, and in some cases, will even log out in group, letting you linger as long as you like and search at your leisure.

RDF doesn't not exclude this as a possibility, but premades are usually better, as they already know your intention ahead of time. I specifically wait when new content comes out, as I know they first several runs are more likely to be about learning mechanics, and less likely to allow time to immerse in the final story. You'll run into more default speed runs in RDF than not.

Worst case scenario, just don't pick up or advance the quest in that run, and you can always do it later. You'll just have to wait for the skill point.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@Merlin13KAGL , that's a lot of words in defense of your own personal view of the world. Thing is, you wrote a lot, but in essense nothing, because you even started with fallacy: you assumed your own definition of 'clear'. What made you think that clear is... getting XP? Why not finishing quest? (Dungeons have quests, you know. They're part of content.) Why not experiencing content in general. Why not... Anything really, but you insist on your own definition that is not reflected anywhere but your personal mental image of what constitutes a 'clear'.

Does finder have a pledge mode? No. Yet you're talking about pledge as a part of a clear. You proceed to pile up a lot of what constitutes 'reasonable' for your own self. I... am very sorry, but I'm not particularly interested in what you, personally, expect as reasonable from those you run with; not interested in bolded hints, either. It's nice that you shared them, thank you, but those are things not codified in any of the game texts or terms of service, so good luck preaching them as universal rules everyone should abide to. What you're listing only feels to you as common sense (regardless of which parts might be and to what extent). It's your own sense. You're not speaking on behalf of the crowds.

What I'm saying is a simple thing, really. The only codified thing that is present when you push queue button is ToS. You may interpret it as you want. Disrupting game flow and dialogue is a violation. It's really that simple. Violations are reported. Sermons on common sense and "but I didn't prevent them from -ever- reading the text!.." are to be taken up with ZOS. (I'm deeply satisfied to have read above that creators of Final Fantasy sided with players doing quests and took action. Whoever wants to put their own version of common sense to the test in ESO, is welcome to continue doing so.)

Dixi.

Merlin13KAGL · September 2018

@John_Falstaff because there is one thing all of those have in common, regardless, and that's killing the final boss.

Again, it's not possible for someone to prevent you from accessing the dialogue. It may not be at your desired rate. You may not be present for the beginning of the next encounter, but what you are describing is simply not a thing. (There is one exception to this I am aware of, but that's due to a game bug, not any player action.)

Even a kick is not a violation, unless they're trying to get you exploit and you disagree. It's not a violation because it does not prevent you from trying again and immersing yourself as much as you wish.

Nothing prevents your game flow. It only requires your game flow to match up with the game flow the other three players you essentially asked for help choose.

Customer Service is not going to prevent you from being removed from a group if you refuse to adjust.

It could be counterargued that your method is "disrupting the game flow" of the three other individuals. The time is not your alone, and nothing prevents your quest from advancing that is not inherently present in the game.

RDF's purpose is to group you in a random dungeon with 3 other people. It's then 75% up to them how things go from there. The game code, and thus the ToS, make that possible.

I'm offering up constructive advice. You're choosing defiance. The votes of three will always outweigh the vote of one. Your insistence on forcing your view on three other people will generally result in one outcome. Again, report as you like. CS will correct your misconceptions.

The actions of another company regarding another game has zero bearing here.

idk · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@VaranisArano , falls under the chapter of disrupting other players' experience. "...conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within a Service..." - kicking people for doing quests fits here perfectly, and I absolutely approve of reporting players for it.

It appears your advocating for kicking players interested in doing the quests and listening to a he dialogue that’s part of the story line. I could be wrong hie I’ve read this and be clear, it’s nor reportable for someone to pay attention to the story line. Certainly not worthy of being kicked either.

When someone is in this much of a hurry they should form their own group. That’s the logical approach.

Wifeaggro13 · September 2018

Shraar wrote: »

Hello, intermediate player here and I'd like your opinion on something.

My understanding of tank is someone who should be the most durable party member, the one who leads the charge, engages and hold aggros so his squishier teammates can focus on healing/damaging. He controls the pace of each fight.

But in ESO, I see tanks who run past everything. Who aren't shieldmaidens and who let aggression fly everywhere. Is this allowed? This seems to be against the rules of the game, exploited by DPS who want a queue that is 20 seconds instead of 20 minutes. To me, that doesn't seem fair or right or expected but I don't know this community yet and I would like to be humble and understand exactly what's going on here. The way I see it now, this kind of behaviour shouldn't be enabled/encouraged, otherwise what is the point of "roles"?

My personal story:
Just recently, I saw a Bow+DW "Tank" who was bullying a member of our party in Elden Hollow I for doing little DPS. I think he had a mod that tracked group members I have seen similar things in WoW? I could tell she wasn't very good because she only heavy attacked and used abilities but she was probably very new because she didn't respond at all, maybe she didn't know how to type?

I decided to stand up and point out that he shouldn't blame DPS for not doing their job when he wasn't tanking anything and was blazing through the instance.
You see, I have the transcript of the conversation here, but names have been replaced so I don't break the Tenets:

Meanie: REALLY HORRIBLE DPS
Meanie: "Other DPS Name" is dealing 3.7k DPS...
Meanie: how is that even possible
Meanie: heavy 2h attack is garbage dude
Me: says the dw/bow tank?
Meanie: I can tank with shield but dps is terrible
Me: You obviously want to rush through this, stop typing.
Meanie: this is my 5 min pledge
Me: This is everyone's dungeon run
Meanie: solo dungeon
Meanie: [FTC] Chokethorn (+1) - 1:03 - 810,302 Damage (32,863 DPS)
Meanie: bow light attack and 2H heavy attack u are a garbage

(it was at this point that he insulted me personally for bow light attacks on a bunch of minions that I decided to vote kick him. I didn't feel like explaining I wanted to get killing blows on non-boss enemies with bow to level the skill line as I was taught to do because I'm below level 50 in skill-line and level. Hail of Arrows and Caltrops were already down! ...The vote kick was successful.)

Me: good people
Meanie (now in /say due to being kicked): u guys wanted a caary
Meanie (now in /say due to being kicked): trashes
Healer: blow me
Me: Lol

Then in the middle of the final bossfight he whispered me: "Garbages play with garbages I guess go play Mine craft trash builds"
Our healer said something along the lines of "hey on our second last boss" so I assume he whispered the other group members too and our healer accidentally responded in group chat??
I simply muted him. I didn't report him (even though I'll admit my spite made me want to...) because he only whispered me once and that's not harassment. I have never encountered toxicity like that in game before.

I am watching a Netflix series right now that features characters who stand up for people in need. I saw what I perceived to be a new player struggling to keep up, and this harsh criticism in Elden Hollow 1, casual and easy, was no place for such high standards and insulting judgments so I stood up against the bully as eloquently as I could. I chose not to be a bystander. Then we, the three of us, stood up to a bully and kicked him out. Hopefully that teaches him that the tortoise beats the hare. I just had to write it all out to get it off my level 40 Hunding's Rage heavy chest armor if you don't think it's relevant I understand that's why I hid it away. Hopefully that teaches him not to rush and be mean.
"This seems to be against the rules of the game, exploited by DPS who want a queue that is 20 seconds instead of 20 minutes."

Because , game design ,bad or poor decisions post launch to devalue class strengths in favor of pvp balance. Very short sighted combat design

Keileon · September 2018

I've actually had similarly toxic experiences on my healer. There was one point where I queued into normal Banished Cells for a random daily (I wasn't level 50 on this character yet, but had ~400 CP applied) and while 3/4 of the party was sub-50, there was this CP 650 tank who prevented two of us from doing the quest by rushing ahead, aggro'd all the enemies and let them trail back to us, and tried to solo the Bone Colossus boss... while we were still fighting through the trash he left behind. He then died and yelled at us to res him while the boss ran down the halls to where we were. Funny enough, we managed to beat it without his "help".

We then votekicked him and he whispered at me "u mad" before I blocked him.

GreenHere · September 2018

Back in my day, "clear" meant you kill everything in the dungeon; as in, you clear it out.

Up hill, both ways, in the snow!

DuskMarine · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DuskMarine , kicking people because they're doing dungeon quest? That sounds like an awesome way to get reported and suspended. I'm totally for you doing it, we need to get that natural selection thing do its stuff. ^^

its not against the tos your hilarious. you can boot someone for litterally breathing if you feel like it. and ive kicked so many people for dilly dallying before cause im in a hurry to get done and so are most of the teams i roll with. you want to do story join a rp guild or a guild that achievement hunts. otherwise your just screwing veterans who already have it done over by being slow which is more than justified to boot you.

max_only · September 2018

When people lack self reflection and empathy (which is exacerbated by the faceless nature of the internet) it’s difficult to talk sense to them.

Each of you report what you think is reportable. Zos will decide.

Giraffon · September 2018

One point that should be made here. If you are grinding XP and you are doing that random normal for the 100K XP. Well the reason it's so much is because you are supposed to play nice with the other players. That's where you earn it if you are a vet. Don't like that? Go run the vet dungeon and earn it via your awesomeness or whatever. Do I cringe when I queue up Banished cells with a bunch of truly new players that have no idea what they are doing? Yes. Do I run ahead a little yes. But I always let them catch up for the bosses and I'm the first to offer to stay behind if they are questing so they can get their skill point.

p00tx · September 2018

Sometimes people are just rotten humans, and sometimes they just suck at their jobs. I play with a guy who insists that he's a tank because he queues in heavy armor (his PvP gear) and slots a taunt. He constantly wants to run vet and DLC content and refuses to queue as anything but the tank, but he's terrible. Dies super fast and won't taunt anything but the boss. I usually just slot a taunt when I'm stuck running with him and off-tank while DPSing or healing (depends on what I bring in) and hope for the best.

While I can suck it up and make up for what he lacks, I feel terrible for the occasional randoms who get stuck in random queues with him (which he does daily) because I know they're going to have to suffer through a dungeon with him. I've heard him get salty about the supposed lack of performance in these groups, and I can assure you these poor players are probably dumbfounded by his own performance. You may have gotten one of these, and there are unfortunately a LOT of them running around. Don't take any of it personally and enjoy the game at your own pace. You did the right thing.

Shraar · September 2018

max_only wrote: »

When people lack self reflection and empathy (which is exacerbated by the faceless nature of the internet) it’s difficult to talk sense to them.

Each of you report what you think is reportable. Zos will decide.

This is why we have the 9 Commands of the Eight Divines. The first and last words.
http://mmo4ever.com/eso/book/180/nine+commands+of+the+eight+divines/

"Common ground is the starting point of all negotiations." - Josephine Montilyet, Antivan Bard

Silver_Strider · September 2018

I like FFXIV version of dungeons that lets you stay in a dungeon for 10 minutes or so after everyone else leaves. Plenty of time to get the dungeon quest done without issue. Having said that, I don't typically leave groups immediately after completing a dungeon. I stay and wander around, looking for chests/heavy sacks people skip over. If that doesn't give you enough time to do the dungeon quest, then Idk what will

Azuramoonstar · September 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I like FFXIV version of dungeons that lets you stay in a dungeon for 10 minutes or so after everyone else leaves. Plenty of time to get the dungeon quest done without issue. Having said that, I don't typically leave groups immediately after completing a dungeon. I stay and wander around, looking for chests/heavy sacks people skip over. If that doesn't give you enough time to do the dungeon quest, then Idk what will

its 5 min, and no. you complete quests as you do the dungeon. Which has been problematic in ff14 since ARR with the base game story ending dungeons which has cs that play out, and until SE changed it to force the cs, players would run ahead of people trying to watch the CS in some cases would boot the person. I recall there being 20-30 threads since ARR about people running ahead during those two dungeons making new players feel crappy. And rather then being sympathetic most community reply was "deal with it", or "i don't wanna waste time".

In older mmo people would wait for new players to do quests, there is no harm, and wastes no real time. idk why people gotta rush content. Group activities fall under the groups time, no one persons time is more important then the other. Communication is key as well as planing.