What defines a "TANK" in the Group Finder? (+personal story)

adeptusminor

Glurin wrote: »

adeptusminor wrote: »

OP, dude was an obvious jerk, but if the other dps was seriously only pulling 3k, that's bad. Really bad. I would honestly think I was being trolled and they were intentionally pulling low numbers to drag the run out as long as possible or something. I can't even imagine how someone could only pull 3k. That's like only doing a single heavy attack every 20 seconds or something.

Inexperienced pre-CP player using gear they found 15 levels ago spamming heaving attacks with no knowledge of how buffs work who likely is just entering dungeons for the very first time not fully understanding what they're getting into.

That would be my guess. Not something to get so worked up over IMO. I mean, those are the people that those normal dungeons are aimed at. Everyone was like that at some point. The correct response would be to make some polite inquiries and offer some friendly advice. No need to go on a "git gud" rant.

I mean you're right, there was no need to go off on the guy like the OP mentioned. That being said, out of curiosity I made a new character, skipping the tutorial--a level 3 with a white level 1 2 handed sword with no skills and no CP. I just held down heavy attack on a target dummy for 90s and got 1.6k. In my opinion, someone would have to go out of their way to be level 10 (assuming they went into the dungeon as soon as possible) and only pull 3k, especially with battle leveling.

max_only

Jayman1000 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Normally I would kick people like this as a matter of principle.

RavenSworn wrote: »

Why do people have these notions of "my time is more important than yours" in a group setting? Unless you have something irl, play to the group.

I'm amazed at some of the responses. "you slow, I kick you." it's like... Dude, go solo it yourself.

Can't. If you want the daily dungeon rewards, you must use the dungeon finder.

WRONG

You can still make your own team and then queue as a team for random and get the daily rewards. No excuse to act that entitled just because your teammates are random.

If you continue to lack consideration for others I suggest you make a team that wants to run the content the way you like and then queue for random for your reward. This applies to people on both extremes.

Jayman1000

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Can play words all you want, but people are free to report you based on this quote from the terms.

You are not allowed to report other players for breaking tos if they are not actually breaking tos, that is a false report. But of course if you are in good faith about the report I doubt you would get punished, neither do I think you should, players shouldn't be scared of using the report function. On the other hand if you consistently and frequently report players that votekicked because they dont want to play with you for whatever reason, griefing excepted, it sounds like you are perhaps getting close to misusing the report function imo.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

And no, you're not entitled to fast-run experience.

Yes I am, if that is what I want to do.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rushing ahead of the group certainly doesn't constitute normal flow of gameplay.

Actually a lot of players does this, thus it is a quite normal type of gameplay. If you use dungeon finder, at least on normal, you can expect this to happen frequently; normal dungeons are easy and you got veteran players that can blaze through it, so they do. Besides, if the group does not like fast rush ahead gameplay, they can just kick. Problem solved; that's most likely why the kick function is there: so the group can manage those small disputes/conflicts through kicking, without involving zos support.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Imagine, you're not even entitled to rewards that result from using the finder - it's not like they're yours to collect,

Yes I am and yes they are. I queued in the dungeon finder, I completed the dungeon. I am entitled to the reward. It matters not how fast or slow I progressed through the dungeon or if I waited for other players to keep up. You may not like it but it doesn't influence my rights to the dungeon finder reward.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

"but I only can get rewards by using finder" is not a valid justification for anything.

Yes it is. It justifies using the dungeon finder to complete dungeons to get the reward.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

This thread is about what tanks should do, so I'm giving it to people who're actually on-topic.

That is part of what we were discussing here. Shortly summarized: Queuing up as tank to get into dungeon finder quickly and then blaze through the dungeon. Its on topic concerning how tanks through group finder should behave.

Jayman1000

max_only wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Normally I would kick people like this as a matter of principle.

RavenSworn wrote: »

Why do people have these notions of "my time is more important than yours" in a group setting? Unless you have something irl, play to the group.

I'm amazed at some of the responses. "you slow, I kick you." it's like... Dude, go solo it yourself.

Can't. If you want the daily dungeon rewards, you must use the dungeon finder.

WRONG

You can still make your own team and then queue as a team for random and get the daily rewards. No excuse to act that entitled just because your teammates are random.

If you continue to lack consideration for others I suggest you make a team that wants to run the content the way you like and then queue for random for your reward. This applies to people on both extremes.

You're right. It was not true that it can't be done. What I actually mean is that to get into a dungeon group very quickly there is only one option: the dungeon finder as a tank. Sorry for using the wrong word must like that. My point really is that it's much faster and much more convenient to use the dungeon finder, and there is nothing that can replace that speed and convenience.

max_only

Jayman1000 wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Normally I would kick people like this as a matter of principle.

RavenSworn wrote: »

Why do people have these notions of "my time is more important than yours" in a group setting? Unless you have something irl, play to the group.

I'm amazed at some of the responses. "you slow, I kick you." it's like... Dude, go solo it yourself.

Can't. If you want the daily dungeon rewards, you must use the dungeon finder.

WRONG

You can still make your own team and then queue as a team for random and get the daily rewards. No excuse to act that entitled just because your teammates are random.

If you continue to lack consideration for others I suggest you make a team that wants to run the content the way you like and then queue for random for your reward. This applies to people on both extremes.

You're right. It was not true that it can't be done. What I actually mean is that to get into a dungeon group very quickly there is only one option: the dungeon finder as a tank. Sorry for using the wrong word must like that. My point really is that it's much faster and much more convenient to use the dungeon finder, and there is nothing that can replace that speed and convenience.

Oh okay. Yeah.

Azuramoonstar

Jayman1000 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Can play words all you want, but people are free to report you based on this quote from the terms.

You are not allowed to report other players for breaking tos if they are not actually breaking tos, that is a false report. But of course if you are in good faith about the report I doubt you would get punished, neither do I think you should, players shouldn't be scared of using the report function. On the other hand if you consistently and frequently report players that votekicked because they dont want to play with you for whatever reason, griefing excepted, it sounds like you are perhaps getting close to misusing the report function imo.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

And no, you're not entitled to fast-run experience.

Yes I am, if that is what I want to do.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rushing ahead of the group certainly doesn't constitute normal flow of gameplay.

Actually a lot of players does this, thus it is a quite normal type of gameplay. If you use dungeon finder, at least on normal, you can expect this to happen frequently; normal dungeons are easy and you got veteran players that can blaze through it, so they do. Besides, if the group does not like fast rush ahead gameplay, they can just kick. Problem solved; that's most likely why the kick function is there: so the group can manage those small disputes/conflicts through kicking, without involving zos support.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Imagine, you're not even entitled to rewards that result from using the finder - it's not like they're yours to collect,

Yes I am and yes they are. I queued in the dungeon finder, I completed the dungeon. I am entitled to the reward. It matters not how fast or slow I progressed through the dungeon or if I waited for other players to keep up. You may not like it but it doesn't influence my rights to the dungeon finder reward.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

"but I only can get rewards by using finder" is not a valid justification for anything.

Yes it is. It justifies using the dungeon finder to complete dungeons to get the reward.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

This thread is about what tanks should do, so I'm giving it to people who're actually on-topic.

That is part of what we were discussing here. Shortly summarized: Queuing up as tank to get into dungeon finder quickly and then blaze through the dungeon. Its on topic concerning how tanks through group finder should behave.

you are dead wrong in everything you are claiming. I'm a old hat at mmo, and know what is and is not re-portable. Your attitude is very much report-able if this is how you act in-game. And no you are not entitled to a fast dungeon, no matter how much you think you are or what you want. People are entitled to get quests done though as that is core gameplay. Either case, both sides can and should find like minded people to tun content with, as to not step on each others toes.

SE had similar issues with 2 dungeons @ lvl 50. they were cs heavy dungeons that beat the base games story. Until it was fixed, new players would be treated poorly for wanting to see the cs because vets would bum rush the dungeons. Making it near impossible to 1) keep up, and 2) see all the cs. After a few years and dozens of complaints, SE now forces the cs to be viewed, no matter if anyone is new or not.

If enough new players complain, then Zos can (and will) add stops in the dungeon that prevent people continuing unless they do the dungeons quest.

It falls in line with the "fake role" aka bad player issue. If enough people complain, Zos can, and might get more stricter in how the queue and role systems work. Which may lead to unintended consequences. They could add a tab in character creation that forces you to pick a role, and have you build to fit that role with how Zos thinks that role should be played. And vets then have to log in a pick a role, which resets everything, and have to build based on the role.


Having a "my time/ my game" attitude is very anti MMO, And most mmo devs don't enjoy it as it can loose them money.

It goes inline with both "fake tank/healer/dps" and speed running dungeon. Do you want the game to be stricter? you sure as heck pushing to it. I rather this game not be super strict.

D0PAMINE

Dude is a scrub. A lot of players who bypass the queue do use a taunt in my experience, myself included. I've tanked normals and some veteran dungeons on my pvp stam dk. However, this bypass shouln't be used if it's going to waste everyones time and ruin the dungeon.

Agenericname

Jayman1000 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Can play words all you want, but people are free to report you based on this quote from the terms.

You are not allowed to report other players for breaking tos if they are not actually breaking tos, that is a false report. But of course if you are in good faith about the report I doubt you would get punished, neither do I think you should, players shouldn't be scared of using the report function. On the other hand if you consistently and frequently report players that votekicked because they dont want to play with you for whatever reason, griefing excepted, it sounds like you are perhaps getting close to misusing the report function imo.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

And no, you're not entitled to fast-run experience.

Yes I am, if that is what I want to do.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rushing ahead of the group certainly doesn't constitute normal flow of gameplay.

Actually a lot of players does this, thus it is a quite normal type of gameplay. If you use dungeon finder, at least on normal, you can expect this to happen frequently; normal dungeons are easy and you got veteran players that can blaze through it, so they do. Besides, if the group does not like fast rush ahead gameplay, they can just kick. Problem solved; that's most likely why the kick function is there: so the group can manage those small disputes/conflicts through kicking, without involving zos support.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Imagine, you're not even entitled to rewards that result from using the finder - it's not like they're yours to collect,

Yes I am and yes they are. I queued in the dungeon finder, I completed the dungeon. I am entitled to the reward. It matters not how fast or slow I progressed through the dungeon or if I waited for other players to keep up. You may not like it but it doesn't influence my rights to the dungeon finder reward.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

"but I only can get rewards by using finder" is not a valid justification for anything.

Yes it is. It justifies using the dungeon finder to complete dungeons to get the reward.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

This thread is about what tanks should do, so I'm giving it to people who're actually on-topic.

That is part of what we were discussing here. Shortly summarized: Queuing up as tank to get into dungeon finder quickly and then blaze through the dungeon. Its on topic concerning how tanks through group finder should behave.

That may not be how ZOS defines "normal." Since the quests were put there by the developers you could assume that they were intended and thus constitute normal gameplay. Speed runs arent acknowledged until veteran level and they're not in normal. One could argue that they it wasnt intended for normal dungeons. While they were probably expected, I doubt they were intended and may not be what ZOS defines as normal.

In order for reporting to do anything worthwhile it would most likely need to happen multiple times, be accompanied by some sort of text dialogue establishing that it was done for that exact reason, and ZOS would need to act on it.

I can pull up to a 4-way intersection on my motorcycle, have the right-of-way, and still get plowed by a suburban assault vehicle while they play angry birds on their phone. I'd win the court case, but my day would still be ruined.

If I were on either extreme of this, I would find like minded players to ensure my own enjoyment.

Salvas_Aren

Agenericname wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Can play words all you want, but people are free to report you based on this quote from the terms.

You are not allowed to report other players for breaking tos if they are not actually breaking tos, that is a false report. But of course if you are in good faith about the report I doubt you would get punished, neither do I think you should, players shouldn't be scared of using the report function. On the other hand if you consistently and frequently report players that votekicked because they dont want to play with you for whatever reason, griefing excepted, it sounds like you are perhaps getting close to misusing the report function imo.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

And no, you're not entitled to fast-run experience.

Yes I am, if that is what I want to do.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rushing ahead of the group certainly doesn't constitute normal flow of gameplay.

Actually a lot of players does this, thus it is a quite normal type of gameplay. If you use dungeon finder, at least on normal, you can expect this to happen frequently; normal dungeons are easy and you got veteran players that can blaze through it, so they do. Besides, if the group does not like fast rush ahead gameplay, they can just kick. Problem solved; that's most likely why the kick function is there: so the group can manage those small disputes/conflicts through kicking, without involving zos support.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Imagine, you're not even entitled to rewards that result from using the finder - it's not like they're yours to collect,

Yes I am and yes they are. I queued in the dungeon finder, I completed the dungeon. I am entitled to the reward. It matters not how fast or slow I progressed through the dungeon or if I waited for other players to keep up. You may not like it but it doesn't influence my rights to the dungeon finder reward.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

"but I only can get rewards by using finder" is not a valid justification for anything.

Yes it is. It justifies using the dungeon finder to complete dungeons to get the reward.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

This thread is about what tanks should do, so I'm giving it to people who're actually on-topic.

That is part of what we were discussing here. Shortly summarized: Queuing up as tank to get into dungeon finder quickly and then blaze through the dungeon. Its on topic concerning how tanks through group finder should behave.

That may not be how ZOS defines "normal." Since the quests were put there by the developers you could assume that they were intended and thus constitute normal gameplay. Speed runs arent acknowledged until veteran level and they're not in normal. One could argue that they it wasnt intended for normal dungeons. While they were probably expected, I doubt they were intended and may not be what ZOS defines as normal.

In order for reporting to do anything worthwhile it would most likely need to happen multiple times, be accompanied by some sort of text dialogue establishing that it was done for that exact reason, and ZOS would need to act on it.

I can pull up to a 4-way intersection on my motorcycle, have the right-of-way, and still get plowed by a suburban assault vehicle while they play angry birds on their phone. I'd win the court case, but my day would still be ruined.

If I were on either extreme of this, I would find like minded players to ensure my own enjoyment.

I can't help but thinking this reads like CP 780s entering normals are exploiters. If this were true, Zeni would prevent them from entering them.

Azuramoonstar

Agenericname wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Can play words all you want, but people are free to report you based on this quote from the terms.

You are not allowed to report other players for breaking tos if they are not actually breaking tos, that is a false report. But of course if you are in good faith about the report I doubt you would get punished, neither do I think you should, players shouldn't be scared of using the report function. On the other hand if you consistently and frequently report players that votekicked because they dont want to play with you for whatever reason, griefing excepted, it sounds like you are perhaps getting close to misusing the report function imo.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

And no, you're not entitled to fast-run experience.

Yes I am, if that is what I want to do.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Rushing ahead of the group certainly doesn't constitute normal flow of gameplay.

Actually a lot of players does this, thus it is a quite normal type of gameplay. If you use dungeon finder, at least on normal, you can expect this to happen frequently; normal dungeons are easy and you got veteran players that can blaze through it, so they do. Besides, if the group does not like fast rush ahead gameplay, they can just kick. Problem solved; that's most likely why the kick function is there: so the group can manage those small disputes/conflicts through kicking, without involving zos support.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Imagine, you're not even entitled to rewards that result from using the finder - it's not like they're yours to collect,

Yes I am and yes they are. I queued in the dungeon finder, I completed the dungeon. I am entitled to the reward. It matters not how fast or slow I progressed through the dungeon or if I waited for other players to keep up. You may not like it but it doesn't influence my rights to the dungeon finder reward.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

"but I only can get rewards by using finder" is not a valid justification for anything.

Yes it is. It justifies using the dungeon finder to complete dungeons to get the reward.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

This thread is about what tanks should do, so I'm giving it to people who're actually on-topic.

That is part of what we were discussing here. Shortly summarized: Queuing up as tank to get into dungeon finder quickly and then blaze through the dungeon. Its on topic concerning how tanks through group finder should behave.

That may not be how ZOS defines "normal." Since the quests were put there by the developers you could assume that they were intended and thus constitute normal gameplay. Speed runs arent acknowledged until veteran level and they're not in normal. One could argue that they it wasnt intended for normal dungeons. While they were probably expected, I doubt they were intended and may not be what ZOS defines as normal.

In order for reporting to do anything worthwhile it would most likely need to happen multiple times, be accompanied by some sort of text dialogue establishing that it was done for that exact reason, and ZOS would need to act on it.

I can pull up to a 4-way intersection on my motorcycle, have the right-of-way, and still get plowed by a suburban assault vehicle while they play angry birds on their phone. I'd win the court case, but my day would still be ruined.

If I were on either extreme of this, I would find like minded players to ensure my own enjoyment.

this, SE dealt with this similar thing by making block walls, and forcing cs to play. Which made ff14 restricted in a lot of ways.

Jayman1000

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

It goes inline with both "fake tank/healer/dps" and speed running dungeon. Do you want the game to be stricter? you sure as heck pushing to it. I rather this game not be super strict.

Then lets hope the devs implements options instead of restrictions. Just let people queue up with likeminded people. Problem solved.

Lexxypwns

Normal or vet? In normal you just want someone to hold the boss still and offer DPS. In vet you probably want a bit more tanking out of your tank

Azuramoonstar

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

It goes inline with both "fake tank/healer/dps" and speed running dungeon. Do you want the game to be stricter? you sure as heck pushing to it. I rather this game not be super strict.

Then lets hope the devs implements options instead of restrictions. Just let people queue up with likeminded people. Problem solved.

you can already do that, it is call form your own party. Problem solved.

My first year of playing an MMO was 2 hours a day, and the ps2 was shared between me and my younger brother and located in his room. (i was 19 years old) i had 0 issue getting groups, i had 0 issue joining guilds. I had 0 issue getting content done because i networked and made sure every log out was close to my objective fir the next session of play.

This was in a much grindy-er mmo, with slower leveling pace, but again i had 0 issues. So there is no excuse why people even with "real lives" can't make connections and form groups.

let me add this.... most of the people i played with were moms, dads, teachers, chemists, blue collar workers, truckers with children, boyfriends, girlfriends, and had 0 issue playing up to 5 hours a day when able.

My boyfriend works a 12 hour a day job as a QA tester for a third party chem lab for oil and fuel. And he still has plenty of time to play mmo with me and get stuff that he wants done.

newtinmpls

Shraar wrote: »

My understanding of tank is someone who should be the most durable party member, the one who leads the charge, engages and hold aggros so his squishier teammates can focus on healing/damaging. He controls the pace of each fight.

Early on the group O four that I play with had one person who pretty much was always the tank; one who was pretty much always the healer. We did branch out eventually, but to this day when we play (and usually we are yakking away on Skype) and especially if we are testing out weird combinations and it's later in the day, the "original tank player" will totally rush right in to a boss fight and then do an Oops

"Wait - I'm not the tank this time."

NyassaV wrote: »

If you can clear the dungeon then don't complain. It doesn't matter what role you queue as so long as you can clear. Basically as long as you get through it, shut up please.

I disagree. Lowbie dungeons exist so that we can learn the mechanics and not die.

Fast clearing *-holes need to GTFU or at least slot a taunt.

Even on a newbie dungeons, if the "tank" isn't taunting, AND the DPS isn't high enough that I notice the tank isn't taunting (so granted, I miss a few) I'll ask if the taunt isn't working.

That would be a hint.

After the hint is not well received comes the vote to kick.

Jayman1000

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

you can already do that, it is call form your own party. Problem solved.

Takes much longer than queuing up as a tank in the group finder, so problem not solved since forming own group has the disadvantage of being much less convenient, and takes much more time.

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

This was in a much grindy-er mmo, with slower leveling pace, but again i had 0 issues. So there is no excuse why people even with "real lives" can't make connections and form groups.

It's not that people can't make connections or groups, it's the convenience of the group finder that simply trumps everything else. If only it had a speedrun option or other such options you could flip on/off so likeminded individuals could be matched, that'd be awesome.
.

RavenSworn

ZoS should turn off the group finder for a week and see the ensuing chaos unfold. Make it so they want to "reset and repair the group finder"

Since there are restrictions on cp lvls for dlc dungeons, there should be restrictions for lower ones. Those above cp300 can't que for the normal base dungeon. Why?

Because people just don't want to play nice with the things that they have. It goes for both camps, if you want to take it slow, go manually. You want it fast? Same thing. I think this is a good idea since even if you want farm runs for items, you can always holler in zone chat. Might be better for the community even.

Jeremy

Glurin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Azuramoonstar wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Why do people have these notions of "my time is more important than yours" in a group setting? Unless you have something irl, play to the group.

I'm amazed at some of the responses. "you slow, I kick you." it's like... Dude, go solo it yourself.

ya i know, since WoW made mmo mainstream the "i got a real life" subset of players took over mmo communities. I recall in ff11 from 2004-2008 had the best community. Asking fir help, forming networks, and people going out of there way to help was the norm, as we all are/were in the same boat. Helping others also helps ourselfs as more people on the same page who are taught positive attitude and play means less likely you run into a "fake" aka bad player.

For some reason people see playing as a competition, they have to be first, when working as a team is not about being first, but helping each other out.

The more people who stop and help with quest, the better off people are. Plus they can add people as friends and help each other out in getting better, but also getting farming done faster.

The more people treat new players like shi, the less likely new players are going to stay, and less likely they will be good as they spent most of their game being put down for being new.

I have a theory about that.

In the old days (on games like Final Fantasy 11) you needed other players to succeed. So if you went around treating everyone like shi_ and made a lot of enemies you usually didn't get very far. So that encouraged others to be nicer.

These newer MMOs are a lot more convenient - but they also lack a sense of community as a result.

not a theory, it proven fact. Look up a youtuber sobardwarf he did a documentary explaining how difficulty made a community.

Thing is though, you do need players in group dungeons, treating people like npc, or as if you never see them again is poor play. In df on ff14 i ran into the same people who are on different servers pretty often.

tbh no matter the mmo you do need others to succeed, just it later in the leveling. WoW started the trend of solo quest to level. where as older mmo required groups to form and kill for exp. tbh i prefer the kill to lvl vs questing to lvl it makes no sense that being a delivery person makes you stronger. Going out to train by fighting harder and harder monsters makes you stronger.

heck even kratos in the new god of war pokes at that concept, as almost any side quest you get he has one liners about not doing it, but enjoys killing and exploring for resources.

You don't really need other players to complete dungeons on this game though. At least not on any kind of consistent basis. You can just toss one of the players from the group and then replace them like an appliance that's acting up. So there isn't much of an incentive to be nice to one another or to try and help a player get better.

Thing is, you shouldn't need incentive to be a decent person. What needs to happen is a general attitude shift back to when the focus was more on just having fun and less on comparing e-peens.

That's true. You shouldn't. But unfortunately many people do.

drkfrontiers

My vision of a perfect TANK you ask?

Darien Gautier.

VaranisArano

drkfrontiers wrote: »

My vision of a perfect TANK you ask?

Darien Gautier.

He's definitely the best NPC tank we've had so far.

Lyris Titanborn, best soldier in the Empire, can't tank or DPS to save her life.

Merlin13KAGL

RavenSworn wrote: »

ZoS should turn off the group finder for a week and see the ensuing chaos unfold. Make it so they want to "reset and repair the group finder"

Since there are restrictions on cp lvls for dlc dungeons, there should be restrictions for lower ones. Those above cp300 can't que for the normal base dungeon. Why?

Because people just don't want to play nice with the things that they have. It goes for both camps, if you want to take it slow, go manually. You want it fast? Same thing. I think this is a good idea since even if you want farm runs for items, you can always holler in zone chat. Might be better for the community even.

This is exactly why I say don't enter RDF with expectations or requirements beyond expect role competency and a clear. Premades will give much higher odds of getting the layout you want.

Regarding not using RDF for the daily bonus, most vets don't need gear, and norm is numerous levels faster for completion. If there's going to be a differentiation between, then the XP granted, even by the daily, should fall in line with the level of required completion.

It's something similar to the old measure of XP, granting more, less, or none depending on how close in level proximity a mob was to the person fighting it.

You're also equating CP's with capability, or lack of CP's with lack of capability. You'll find yourself mistaken quite often on both counts.

I've a second account and run into the occasional "you know the mechanics?" etc. This amuses me, since I've probably logged more hours idle, waiting for people to catch up in said dungeons than the 'helpful' person has logged in their entirety. I've cleared content at CP200 that some don't at CP780, and I've seen examples of the opposite, as well.

Until there is a requirement (min/max) this will continue to be an issue. The removal of required progression was not a good thing, for this very reason. It will only continue to get worse, or things will continue to get nerfed to compensate.

Neither is a good option.

If anything, it should be based on clears under a specific role, number of clears, and related achievements, giving an 'achievement score,' if you will. This will give a far better indicator of capability than the ability to grind CP's will.

There should be a certification for role. It can be an optional thing, if people so choose, but having it, legitimately, should greatly increase your marketability for a particular group. Experience should be rewarded. Currently, it's truly and RNG gamble.

Shraar

drkfrontiers wrote: »

My vision of a perfect TANK you ask?

Darien Gautier.

Darien Gautier > Jakarn

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Shraar wrote: »

drkfrontiers wrote: »

My vision of a perfect TANK you ask?

Darien Gautier.

Darien Gautier > Jakarn

I will fight for Jakarn’s honor! Or what’s left of it.

Ertosi

raj72616a wrote: »

i always jump off the waterfall at FG, even on new alts without the achievement
if someone want to take the lava shortcut in CoA2, i always follow

it's not "rushed".
it's just a regular fast run.

when i queue up for pug, i expect a normal run. not a dragged-out OCD completionist slooow run.

Both of those sound dangerously like glitching. Neither of those two spots are easy to get out of as the opposite banks obviously weren't meant to be jumped up.

Neither "everyone does it" nor "they've been in the game for years" counter the point that it feels like glitching the levels. Has ZOS ever posted an official stance on using those "shortcuts"? My fear is that ZOS would consider using unintended shortcuts would be considered cheating and would hate to one day find my account is banned just because PUGs always force these shortcuts on everyone rather than running the dungeons as they were intended to be run.

Off topic to the original post, I know, but after searching the forums, this is the only reference I can find on those two "shortcuts" and I'd love to know ZOS's official stance on them.

karekiz

Mine:

1.Taunt

2.Survive - this one is rarely mentioned. Honestly I would rather I like new tank be as tanky as possible <Even if I don't have Alkosh debuff etc> and never die than one trying to play debuff/buff tank and die all the time. Dead tanks do more harm to DPS.

3. CC - This is a must beyond debuffing IMO. I do more dmg AoEing all the trash in a room in one pull vs a couple even if they are debuffed. Pulling S/Board mobs off me and making sure non pulling mobs <Minotaurs etc> never run rampant is so much easier to DPS.

4. Debuff - Once all the above is easy peasy put the cherry on top and enjoy blazing through a dungeon. Slot Alkosh/Ebon or even Powerful Assault and buff us up.

witchdoctor

Ertosi wrote: »

Both of those sound dangerously like glitching. Neither of those two spots are easy to get out of as the opposite banks obviously weren't meant to be jumped up.

Glitching? Jumping off clearly non-walled-off terrain is not glitching.

Not meant to be jumped? They are not walled-off, and even provide footholds for the jump.

Pretty sure that in the some 30+ years of game development, level designers are well versed in the fact players will explore every nook and cranny of a level.

You may be right that not everyone knows of it, or does it, but to even vocalise 'glitching' is absurd.

Merlin13KAGL

Ertosi wrote: »

raj72616a wrote: »

i always jump off the waterfall at FG, even on new alts without the achievement
if someone want to take the lava shortcut in CoA2, i always follow

it's not "rushed".
it's just a regular fast run.

when i queue up for pug, i expect a normal run. not a dragged-out OCD completionist slooow run.

Both of those sound dangerously like glitching. Neither of those two spots are easy to get out of as the opposite banks obviously weren't meant to be jumped up.

Neither "everyone does it" nor "they've been in the game for years" counter the point that it feels like glitching the levels. Has ZOS ever posted an official stance on using those "shortcuts"? My fear is that ZOS would consider using unintended shortcuts would be considered cheating and would hate to one day find my account is banned just because PUGs always force these shortcuts on everyone rather than running the dungeons as they were intended to be run.

Off topic to the original post, I know, but after searching the forums, this is the only reference I can find on those two "shortcuts" and I'd love to know ZOS's official stance on them.

People didn't bother in the beginning because FG was arguably the best location in game to harvest leather scraps. The river below not only has at least two spots where you can jump back on land, it even has a built in ramp as on side. Furthermore, a chest often spawns right at one of the 'bypass' spots.

Once crabs stopped dropping rawhide, there wasn't much point in grabbing every single add.

The only boss(es) you avoid are ones you can walk around without aggro'ing anyway. Not to mention FG has been in the game since day 1. If they didn't want you down there, an invisible wall, a kill wall, or simply shallower water would do the trick. They could add slaughterfish if they really wanted to be devilish - no respawn here.

CoA II was the first added basegame dungeon, and it wasn't months before at least one bypass was found and quite often streamed for speed runs. You have to mitigate the lava damage to get to the other side.

In both cases, the time saved honestly isn't needed by any group that can speed run the dungeon anyway. It's just skipping trash mobs, there for delay, XP, and filler content (so you don't have a big empty dungeon).

Those are alternate routes, not remotely game breaking, exploitive, or glitching. Had they been, they've had damn near 5 years to fix them. If your group couldn't speed run or clear CoA II at the time, Ursus, the Collosus, Maw, or the Titan was to thank, not the scamps and miscellaneous base level adds.

(Consider the difference between those and things like the RoM bypass (which did get fixed) and you can quickly see the distinction.)

sampol212

I play Magicka Warden DPS and often queue as tank for Normal dungeons just for faster search. I had never any problem with fininshing normal dungeon like this.

Of course its different in veteran and trials.

raj72616a

abt Fungo Grotto shortcut, there is a waterfall, with a deep enough body of water under it, of course it's meant to be jumped off.
they even put a treasure chest spawn point over there to lure you to it.
and in open world, the game even reward you with achievement for jumping off waterfall.

Jeremy

karekiz wrote: »

Mine:

1.Taunt

2.Survive - this one is rarely mentioned. Honestly I would rather I like new tank be as tanky as possible <Even if I don't have Alkosh debuff etc> and never die than one trying to play debuff/buff tank and die all the time. Dead tanks do more harm to DPS.

3. CC - This is a must beyond debuffing IMO. I do more dmg AoEing all the trash in a room in one pull vs a couple even if they are debuffed. Pulling S/Board mobs off me and making sure non pulling mobs <Minotaurs etc> never run rampant is so much easier to DPS.

4. Debuff - Once all the above is easy peasy put the cherry on top and enjoy blazing through a dungeon. Slot Alkosh/Ebon or even Powerful Assault and buff us up.

Agreed.

No. 2 isn't recognized enough. People seem to believe so long as you hold aggro you're doing your job as a tank. I disagree. You job is to hold aggro and mitigate damage.

Nothing is more miserable for a healer than trying to a keep a taunting damage dealer with crappy resists and health alive. And nothing can cause a wipe faster than a dead tank.

Wifeaggro13

Jeremy wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Mine:

1.Taunt

2.Survive - this one is rarely mentioned. Honestly I would rather I like new tank be as tanky as possible <Even if I don't have Alkosh debuff etc> and never die than one trying to play debuff/buff tank and die all the time. Dead tanks do more harm to DPS.

3. CC - This is a must beyond debuffing IMO. I do more dmg AoEing all the trash in a room in one pull vs a couple even if they are debuffed. Pulling S/Board mobs off me and making sure non pulling mobs <Minotaurs etc> never run rampant is so much easier to DPS.

4. Debuff - Once all the above is easy peasy put the cherry on top and enjoy blazing through a dungeon. Slot Alkosh/Ebon or even Powerful Assault and buff us up.

Agreed.

No. 2 isn't recognized enough. People seem to believe so long as you hold aggro you're doing your job as a tank. I disagree. You job is to hold aggro and mitigate damage.

Nothing is more miserable for a healer than trying to a keep a taunting damage dealer with crappy resists and health alive. And nothing can cause a wipe faster than a dead tank.

i think were the problem arises is the CP and gear issue with enough CP and proper gear you can by pass just about all the role requirements for most of the VR dungeons and go 4 dps with self heals or 3 dps and a heal. it did not used to be this way before the cP system was increased and VR system had a far far more defined group dynamic. At the end of the day its the CP system and ZOS insistence on hiding their progression behind gear traits. they say its a linear system but its not its hidden from view and its based off RNG. all they did was make their job easy by not having level increases and new abilities added to the classes or trees to the CP system. all they have to do is add a new Meta set and let people grind for perfect traits. its a cheap lazy way of managing your MMO.

What has happened is that vets that stuck around long enough at this point have had an mouth full of churn populations coming and going they no longer are willing to teach another round of people the content ,animation canceling and builds. the problem is two fold at its design level.


1) if its old dungeons they don't want to spend time on it when they can just stack and burn everything , that is ZOS fault truthfully in their game design. too much focus on DPS and not enough on actual tanking, utlity ,CC, and healing mechanics. All trash pulls can be stacked and burned and for the most part most bosses can be burned with very little attention to healing or tanking with enough DPS on high CP players. im not stating that this is the case with new trials or dungeons mind you.

2) Tam one did nothing to prepare this churn population for VR content at all . they let them light attack their way through all the lvls and CP with crafted gear then through them in VMA for a beating of monumental proportions, and the dungeon finder for a lesson in frustration. then they come here and vehemently complain the game is too hard and quit. this cycle repeats itself since mid 2015. Guilds come and go end game VR player become reclusive and nasty. Mind you there is a population of Elitists that have not been playing the game for more then a year that are just plain pro and they are even more nasty then the later. each balance patch changes the meta PVP gets affected the hardest, they yell and scream as it has ruined their fun. the PVE player just plain quits as they no longer really wish to grind more traits on a new set. ZOS was better off just following a true vertical progression system for the end game. The churn player will scream no but they dont stick around anyway so way create this single player RPG with a MMO group option for its end game. the current design is a snake eating its tail just like the logo.