What defines a "TANK" in the Group Finder? (+personal story)

raj72616a · September 2018

i always jump off the waterfall at FG, even on new alts without the achievement
i've never ever done a single ICP run that kill all the trash mobs (pull a huge train of mobs, wipe and let them all reset position, or jump into the lake to lose them)
if someone want to take the lava shortcut in CoA2, i always follow

it's not "rushed".
it's just a regular fast run.

when i queue up for pug, i expect a normal run. not a dragged-out OCD completionist slooow run.

Thalmor-Nordmaster · September 2018

raj72616a

What you have described is a group with good communications. Some groups want fast runs some want something like a zerker speed run and some want to learn everything about the dungeon.

When people communicate then expectations can be adjusted. We can always come back. If someone is short on time due to work or school or R/L then adjustments can be made.

But I am not leaving the group. I don't rush ahead and separate thus leaving mobs between me and them. I will not be rude or lower my standards of integrity. I have a job; poke things, make thing mad so it hits me. Debuff things, chain things, buff team.
and remember to block. I am there for you my fellow gamers.

Etienne_et_Isabeau · September 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

tanks have high health sword and board or sword and board with ice staff back bar.

I do Sword & Board with Restoration Staff back up.

HappyLittleTree · September 2018

Taunt, Debuff, Survive repeat

mocap · September 2018

if someone wants one more post in this thread about aggro, debuf and don't die, well then

*drumroll*
i think tank must hold aggro, debuf mobs and don't die!
*BA DUM TSSS*

Titansteele · September 2018

It's time to make a change,
Just relax, take it easy
You're still young, that's your fault,
There's so much you have to know
Find a guild, settle down,
If you want you can be carried
Look at me, I am old, but I'm happy

I was once like you are now, and I know that it's not easy,
To be calm when you've found something going on
But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not

How can I try to explain, when I do she turns away again
It's always been the same, same old story
From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen
Now there's a way and I know that I have to go away
I know I have to go

It's time to make a change,
Just sit down, take it slowly
You're still young, that's your fault,
There's so much you have to go through
Find a guild, settle down,
If you want you can be carried
Look at me, I am old, but I'm happy

All the times that I tried, keeping all the things I knew inside,
It's hard, but it's harder to ignore it
If they were right, I'd agree, but it's them you know not me
Now there's a way and I know that I have to go away
I know I have to go

McCloskey10_5_13 · September 2018

raj72616a wrote: »

there is *no* aoe taunt in the game.
caltrops, endless hail, nothing's gonna get all the mobs on me, i aggro them, they go for you squishy dps. there is no threat no hate mechanics in the game, it's just taunted or not taunted. and we only have single target taunt.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/391895/a-guide-to-aggro

If I'm reading this right, an initial AOE should give you ~7 seconds of aggro from anyone it touches, which you should be able to maintain as long as you keep a DOT ticking on them (mechanics aside). This is why people use those AOE DOTs like caltrops or blockade to open. So as long as your group lets you strike first, it seems like you will have unlimited 7 second AOE taunts using whatever AOE you want, as long as you keep the DOT rolling. Shouldn't matter how much damage the DPS are putting out. But as soon as that 7 is up, if you have dropped your DOT, the next thing that touches them, including a AOE heal, will aggro them for another 7, now on that person.

idk · September 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DuskMarine , you move, they move, they fell behind, stop and let them catch up, that's how it works. Keep in mind some of them might be doing quest, or just being thorough exploring.

im the guy that comes in and kills everything or slowly kills everything while your dilly dallying. im not one for waiting if you wanna do story you got friends to run you so.

Last time I had a partial group in a GF run where two people ran ahead their dps was weak sauce. It was just a normal random so it was no big deal but after the first boss we let them take care of the bosses alone after seeing how low their DPS was just so it would take them longer. It was really sad to see how bad they were yet always pushed ahead.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@McCloskey10_5_13 , in my observations, I think it only initial damage hit makes them go for the attacker, but then, all bets are off, and the internal logic makes them switch to other targets. So, when DDs are damaging the crowd, tank won't be able to stop mobs from switching focus to them (or to healer), hence taunting the heavy-hitting ones and rooting (I see talons and time stop, and chains / silver leash to pull archers in) the rest to the place. Some damage may be withstood, but tank has the option of preventing a crowd of mobs from chasing DDs/healer in circles.

raj72616a wrote: »

it's not "rushed".
it's just a regular fast run.

when i queue up for pug, i expect a normal run. not a dragged-out OCD completionist slooow run.

So fast or regular? You know, whether those words equal the same, each decides for himself, your definition isn't the ultimate truth. ^^ And expectations are like that. Each has their own, and they're not always met. You expect normal in your understanding, others expect normal in their understanding, and you have no ground saying their is any worse than yours. They might be even right, designers placed mobs there for a reason. So if you queue up, be prepared to be part of the team. If you want a guaranteed fast run - send a call in guild chat, or in the zone on the off chance, put together a like-minded team.

JinMori · September 2018

Tank on it's most basic form is someone who can sponge damage and keep it away from the healers and dds, basically taunt and enjoy the pain.

zaria · September 2018

McCloskey10_5_13 wrote: »

raj72616a wrote: »

there is *no* aoe taunt in the game.
caltrops, endless hail, nothing's gonna get all the mobs on me, i aggro them, they go for you squishy dps. there is no threat no hate mechanics in the game, it's just taunted or not taunted. and we only have single target taunt.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/391895/a-guide-to-aggro

If I'm reading this right, an initial AOE should give you ~7 seconds of aggro from anyone it touches, which you should be able to maintain as long as you keep a DOT ticking on them (mechanics aside). This is why people use those AOE DOTs like caltrops or blockade to open. So as long as your group lets you strike first, it seems like you will have unlimited 7 second AOE taunts using whatever AOE you want, as long as you keep the DOT rolling. Shouldn't matter how much damage the DPS are putting out. But as soon as that 7 is up, if you have dropped your DOT, the next thing that touches them, including a AOE heal, will aggro them for another 7, now on that person.

If tank do the first AoE he will get the initial agro so all mob goes to him. Afterward its random but tank can use CC to pin mob in AoE. If some else do it they rater go to him so let tank to first hit.

DuskMarine · September 2018

idk wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DuskMarine , you move, they move, they fell behind, stop and let them catch up, that's how it works. Keep in mind some of them might be doing quest, or just being thorough exploring.

im the guy that comes in and kills everything or slowly kills everything while your dilly dallying. im not one for waiting if you wanna do story you got friends to run you so.

Last time I had a partial group in a GF run where two people ran ahead their dps was weak sauce. It was just a normal random so it was no big deal but after the first boss we let them take care of the bosses alone after seeing how low their DPS was just so it would take them longer. It was really sad to see how bad they were yet always pushed ahead.

mustve been some newbies. anyone whos a veteran can pull over 30k dps self buffed in normal where your just after the clear on a pledge your not really gonna care about what your team wants either come on or im gonna nuke the dungeon alone.

sudaki_eso · September 2018

What defines a "TANK" in the Group Finder?

Keep the boss out of my face, interrupt if necessary and if you are good buff the group, debuff the boss and pull adds together, other then that just hold R2, its not rocket science playing a tank

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@DuskMarine , "...or im gonna get kicked" - fixed it for you. ^^ I don't know why you're queueing for a pledge if you can solo the dungeon. Go ahead, teleport in and nuke it, don't spoil experience for others.

@sudaki_eso , I suppose there are exceptions, it feels that a tank has to have a geometry course before going into HoF, but basically yes. ^^

DanteYoda · September 2018

And people wonder why so many don't want to do dungeons..

Giraffon · September 2018

These threads all stop if Zeni allows the players to select requirements for their group.

The defaults should be as they are, but the player can uncheck healer, tank, or DD as requirements if they want. That way all those fake tanks can go queue up with 3 other DDs just like they always wanted. Fake tanks go away. DD queue times are reduced dramatically.

Sounds like a win-win to me.

I have played all roles at the vet level. I see all sides of this argument and this is what must be done to improve QOL of PUGs.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@Giraffon , thing is, that would amount to ZOS openly and officially admitting their inability to design content that actually requires all roles, or even just better done with all roles. I don't see it happening. Though I will admit that the idea of gathering all the fakes in one place and separating them from people who enjoy normal group composition does appeal to me. ^^

Cryptical · September 2018

Shraar wrote: »

I didn't feel like explaining I wanted to get killing blows on non-boss enemies with bow to level the skill line as I was taught to do because I'm below level 50 in skill-line and level.

Someone taught you wrong.

Just put a bow skill on the bar and experience points you get while on that bar will raise that individual skill and the bow skill line. You don’t need killing blows because it functions on experience points. You don’t need to have a bow equipped, the experience points apply to the bar skills.

Yes, this means you can raise the bow skill line all the way to 50 by running destro resto and only slotting snipe on one bar. It’s faster if it’s on both bars. Faster still if there’s more than one skill on both bars because then the skill line is getting multiple ‘portions’ of the xp you earn.

But that killing blow stuff is just nonsense

idk · September 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

idk wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DuskMarine , you move, they move, they fell behind, stop and let them catch up, that's how it works. Keep in mind some of them might be doing quest, or just being thorough exploring.

im the guy that comes in and kills everything or slowly kills everything while your dilly dallying. im not one for waiting if you wanna do story you got friends to run you so.

Last time I had a partial group in a GF run where two people ran ahead their dps was weak sauce. It was just a normal random so it was no big deal but after the first boss we let them take care of the bosses alone after seeing how low their DPS was just so it would take them longer. It was really sad to see how bad they were yet always pushed ahead.

mustve been some newbies. anyone whos a veteran can pull over 30k dps self buffed in normal where your just after the clear on a pledge your not really gonna care about what your team wants either come on or im gonna nuke the dungeon alone.

Hate to hear bad news but there are CP capped players who cannot break 20k.

DuskMarine · September 2018

idk wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

idk wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DuskMarine , you move, they move, they fell behind, stop and let them catch up, that's how it works. Keep in mind some of them might be doing quest, or just being thorough exploring.

im the guy that comes in and kills everything or slowly kills everything while your dilly dallying. im not one for waiting if you wanna do story you got friends to run you so.

Last time I had a partial group in a GF run where two people ran ahead their dps was weak sauce. It was just a normal random so it was no big deal but after the first boss we let them take care of the bosses alone after seeing how low their DPS was just so it would take them longer. It was really sad to see how bad they were yet always pushed ahead.

mustve been some newbies. anyone whos a veteran can pull over 30k dps self buffed in normal where your just after the clear on a pledge your not really gonna care about what your team wants either come on or im gonna nuke the dungeon alone.

Hate to hear bad news but there are CP capped players who cannot break 20k.

people who just dont put in the time its so easy to break 30k on classes now theres no real excuse.

DuskMarine · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DuskMarine , "...or im gonna get kicked" - fixed it for you. ^^ I don't know why you're queueing for a pledge if you can solo the dungeon. Go ahead, teleport in and nuke it, don't spoil experience for others.

@sudaki_eso , I suppose there are exceptions, it feels that a tank has to have a geometry course before going into HoF, but basically yes. ^^

ive had some actually praise me for doing it but if your gonna que up for pledges dont expect them to wait on you to quest thats just rediculous. you want a questing group go find a guild dont hold back people who are in a hurry.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@DuskMarine , told you, and will tell again: works both ways. Want to hurry? Find people who like to hurry. If you're going to rush, don't expect your group not to kick you. And you'll be surprised how often I've met normal people who would wait for others to quest. Don't judge others by your own self. ^^ Point in case, people aren't expected to 'find a questing group' to have normal experience in dungeons. If you're rushing forward, if you're not doing the job you've signed up for - well, you're the one who's disrupting normal dungeoning experience. No finding excuses for that.

DuskMarine · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DuskMarine , told you, and will tell again: works both ways. Want to hurry? Find people who like to hurry. If you're going to rush, don't expect your group not to kick you. And you'll be surprised how often I've met normal people who would wait for others to quest. Don't judge others by your own self. ^^ Point in case, people aren't expected to 'find a questing group' to have normal experience in dungeons. If you're rushing forward, if you're not doing the job you've signed up for - well, you're the one who's disrupting normal dungeoning experience. No finding excuses for that.

goes in as dps wrecks everything hmm clearly ive done my job while yall are clear back at the starting point. so ya know kindve gotta cater to those of us who would rather not sit there all day were there on a mission. wanna sit back cool dont expect us to wait on you and if theres more than one of us that feel that way goodluck kicking us. nine times outta ten people who sit back are the ones who get booted.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@DuskMarine , kicking people because they're doing dungeon quest? That sounds like an awesome way to get reported and suspended. I'm totally for you doing it, we need to get that natural selection thing do its stuff. ^^

VaranisArano · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

DuskMarine , kicking people because they're doing dungeon quest? That sounds like an awesome way to get reported and suspended. I'm totally for you doing it, we need to get that natural selection thing do its stuff. ^^

What? Its not against the TOS to kick people from a dungeon run.

Lets not frivolously report players.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@VaranisArano , falls under the chapter of disrupting other players' experience. "...conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within a Service..." - kicking people for doing quests fits here perfectly, and I absolutely approve of reporting players for it.

Skullstachio · September 2018

Shraar wrote: »

Hello, intermediate player here and I'd like your opinion on something.

My understanding of tank is someone who should be the most durable party member, the one who leads the charge, engages and hold aggros so his squishier teammates can focus on healing/damaging. He controls the pace of each fight.

But in ESO, I see tanks who run past everything. Who aren't shieldmaidens and who let aggression fly everywhere. Is this allowed? This seems to be against the rules of the game, exploited by DPS who want a queue that is 20 seconds instead of 20 minutes. To me, that doesn't seem fair or right or expected but I don't know this community yet and I would like to be humble and understand exactly what's going on here. The way I see it now, this kind of behaviour shouldn't be enabled/encouraged, otherwise what is the point of "roles"?

My personal story:
Just recently, I saw a Bow+DW "Tank" who was bullying a member of our party in Elden Hollow I for doing little DPS. I think he had a mod that tracked group members I have seen similar things in WoW? I could tell she wasn't very good because she only heavy attacked and used abilities but she was probably very new because she didn't respond at all, maybe she didn't know how to type?

I decided to stand up and point out that he shouldn't blame DPS for not doing their job when he wasn't tanking anything and was blazing through the instance.
You see, I have the transcript of the conversation here, but names have been replaced so I don't break the Tenets:

Meanie: REALLY HORRIBLE DPS
Meanie: "Other DPS Name" is dealing 3.7k DPS...
Meanie: how is that even possible
Meanie: heavy 2h attack is garbage dude
Me: says the dw/bow tank?
Meanie: I can tank with shield but dps is terrible
Me: You obviously want to rush through this, stop typing.
Meanie: this is my 5 min pledge
Me: This is everyone's dungeon run
Meanie: solo dungeon
Meanie: [FTC] Chokethorn (+1) - 1:03 - 810,302 Damage (32,863 DPS)
Meanie: bow light attack and 2H heavy attack u are a garbage

(it was at this point that he insulted me personally for bow light attacks on a bunch of minions that I decided to vote kick him. I didn't feel like explaining I wanted to get killing blows on non-boss enemies with bow to level the skill line as I was taught to do because I'm below level 50 in skill-line and level. Hail of Arrows and Caltrops were already down! ...The vote kick was successful.)

Me: good people
Meanie (now in /say due to being kicked): u guys wanted a caary
Meanie (now in /say due to being kicked): trashes
Healer: blow me
Me: Lol

Then in the middle of the final bossfight he whispered me: "Garbages play with garbages I guess go play Mine craft trash builds"
Our healer said something along the lines of "hey on our second last boss" so I assume he whispered the other group members too and our healer accidentally responded in group chat??
I simply muted him. I didn't report him (even though I'll admit my spite made me want to...) because he only whispered me once and that's not harassment. I have never encountered toxicity like that in game before.

I am watching a Netflix series right now that features characters who stand up for people in need. I saw what I perceived to be a new player struggling to keep up, and this harsh criticism in Elden Hollow 1, casual and easy, was no place for such high standards and insulting judgments so I stood up against the bully as eloquently as I could. I chose not to be a bystander. Then we, the three of us, stood up to a bully and kicked him out. Hopefully that teaches him that the tortoise beats the hare. I just had to write it all out to get it off my level 40 Hunding's Rage heavy chest armor if you don't think it's relevant I understand that's why I hid it away. Hopefully that teaches him not to rush and be mean.
"This seems to be against the rules of the game, exploited by DPS who want a queue that is 20 seconds instead of 20 minutes."

I know that Feeling. I used to be a tank on my Orc Dragonknight main until I decided to make him a DPS, but when I was tanking, I did my job to the latter, Taunting key Enemies that posed a great threat to the group and allowing my teammates to Dish out their highest DPS potential, and Resisting all the Damage that came flying my way, being able to take all forms of punishment without batting an eye.

Nowadays now as a DPS, I now know that there are quite a few, if not a lot of Fake tanks that definitely need to be addressed in some way so as not to degrade some of ESO's gaming elements for what it is and how good it has, and can be.

Jayman1000 · September 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@DuskMarine , you move, they move, they fell behind, stop and let them catch up, that's how it works. Keep in mind some of them might be doing quest, or just being thorough exploring.

im the guy that comes in and kills everything or slowly kills everything while your dilly dallying. im not one for waiting if you wanna do story you got friends to run you so.

yeah I do that too, no patience for that other stuff. The daily dungeon rewards is only for groups using group finder, and vet doe snot really give any benefit over normal. it may be hated practice, idk, I personally have only have very few complaints, most times there is no problem. But I just think ZOS should make a better system really. Im gonna continue doing that and some may be angery about it, but this is how I wanna play it.

Jayman1000 · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@VaranisArano , falls under the chapter of disrupting other players' experience. "...conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within a Service..." - kicking people for doing quests fits here perfectly, and I absolutely approve of reporting players for it.

If someone in your group does not play the way you like then you are free to to votekick them. Votekicking because someone, through the dungeon finder, wants to do quest taking a lot otime, can hardly be called disrupting others playing experience. Reporting for this is imo tangent to abuse of the report system, especially if done consistently. What about the the playing experience of the guy that just wants the dungeon complete as fast as possible? I dont think his experience is less worthy than the guy that wants to do the quests at snails pace? Imo both hold equal value to their game play experience, and both have equal rights to initiate a vote kick the other if they do not want to play with him/her for any reason whatsoever (The exception being votekicking simply to grief of course.). Opinions on how morally justifiable one or the other may be may vary, but from a TOS point of view you can votekick for whatever reason you may wish, bar griefing.

Azuramoonstar · September 2018

edit: nvm