What defines a "TANK" in the Group Finder? (+personal story)

Shraar · September 2018

Hello, intermediate player here and I'd like your opinion on something.

My understanding of tank is someone who should be the most durable party member, the one who leads the charge, engages and hold aggros so his squishier teammates can focus on healing/damaging. He controls the pace of each fight.

But in ESO, I see tanks who run past everything. Who aren't shieldmaidens and who let aggression fly everywhere. Is this allowed? This seems to be against the rules of the game, exploited by DPS who want a queue that is 20 seconds instead of 20 minutes. To me, that doesn't seem fair or right or expected but I don't know this community yet and I would like to be humble and understand exactly what's going on here. The way I see it now, this kind of behaviour shouldn't be enabled/encouraged, otherwise what is the point of "roles"?

My personal story:

Just recently, I saw a Bow+DW "Tank" who was bullying a member of our party in Elden Hollow I for doing little DPS. I think he had a mod that tracked group members I have seen similar things in WoW? I could tell she wasn't very good because she only heavy attacked and used abilities but she was probably very new because she didn't respond at all, maybe she didn't know how to type?

I decided to stand up and point out that he shouldn't blame DPS for not doing their job when he wasn't tanking anything and was blazing through the instance.
You see, I have the transcript of the conversation here, but names have been replaced so I don't break the Tenets:

Meanie: REALLY HORRIBLE DPS
Meanie: "Other DPS Name" is dealing 3.7k DPS...
Meanie: how is that even possible
Meanie: heavy 2h attack is garbage dude
Me: says the dw/bow tank?
Meanie: I can tank with shield but dps is terrible
Me: You obviously want to rush through this, stop typing.
Meanie: this is my 5 min pledge
Me: This is everyone's dungeon run
Meanie: solo dungeon
Meanie: [FTC] Chokethorn (+1) - 1:03 - 810,302 Damage (32,863 DPS)
Meanie: bow light attack and 2H heavy attack u are a garbage

(it was at this point that he insulted me personally for bow light attacks on a bunch of minions that I decided to vote kick him. I didn't feel like explaining I wanted to get killing blows on non-boss enemies with bow to level the skill line as I was taught to do because I'm below level 50 in skill-line and level. Hail of Arrows and Caltrops were already down! ...The vote kick was successful.)

Me: good people
Meanie (now in /say due to being kicked): u guys wanted a caary
Meanie (now in /say due to being kicked): trashes
Healer: blow me
Me: Lol

Then in the middle of the final bossfight he whispered me: "Garbages play with garbages I guess go play Mine craft trash builds"
Our healer said something along the lines of "hey on our second last boss" so I assume he whispered the other group members too and our healer accidentally responded in group chat??
I simply muted him. I didn't report him (even though I'll admit my spite made me want to...) because he only whispered me once and that's not harassment. I have never encountered toxicity like that in game before.

I am watching a Netflix series right now that features characters who stand up for people in need. I saw what I perceived to be a new player struggling to keep up, and this harsh criticism in Elden Hollow 1, casual and easy, was no place for such high standards and insulting judgments so I stood up against the bully as eloquently as I could. I chose not to be a bystander. Then we, the three of us, stood up to a bully and kicked him out. Hopefully that teaches him that the tortoise beats the hare. I just had to write it all out to get it off my level 40 Hunding's Rage heavy chest armor if you don't think it's relevant I understand that's why I hid it away. Hopefully that teaches him not to rush and be mean.

"This seems to be against the rules of the game, exploited by DPS who want a queue that is 20 seconds instead of 20 minutes."

Shezzarrine · September 2018

As long as he had a taunt equiped and taunted the bosses it would be fine for him to queue as tank. Outside of DLCs you don't need anywhere near a tanky build to "tank" normals. Can't complain about low dps in a normal dungeon, but if it were vet I would agree the other dps needs to pull their own weight

But you were right, this guy is a jerk. Instead of insulting he should have at least offered advice instead of insulting, even unwanted advice is better than that. The funny part is he was only hitting 33k which isn't even that good (no offense to anyone) especially for someone who is insulting the dps of others.

Last thing, he probably had an add-on called "combat metrics" which shows only your dps, so he knew he was pulling around 80-some percent of the group damage but he had no way of knowing how much of that percentage he isn't doing was the other dps

StamWhipCultist · September 2018

Tank is someone who uses taunt to keep enemies aggroed, uses buffs and debuffs to make dps and healers life easier.

kathandira · September 2018

Shraar wrote: »

Hello, intermediate player here and I'd like your opinion on something.

My understanding of tank is someone who should be the most durable party member, the one who leads the charge, engages and hold aggros so his squishier teammates can focus on healing/damaging. He controls the pace of each fight.

But in ESO, I see tanks who run past everything. Who aren't shieldmaidens and who let aggression fly everywhere. Is this allowed? This seems to be against the rules of the game, exploited by DPS who want a queue that is 20 seconds instead of 20 minutes. To me, that doesn't seem fair or right or expected but I don't know this community yet and I would like to be humble and understand exactly what's going on here. The way I see it now, this kind of behaviour shouldn't be enabled/encouraged, otherwise what is the point of "roles"?

My personal story:
Just recently, I saw a Bow+DW "Tank" who was bullying a member of our party in Elden Hollow I for doing little DPS. I think he had a mod that tracked group members I have seen similar things in WoW? I could tell she wasn't very good because she only heavy attacked and used abilities but she was probably very new because she didn't respond at all, maybe she didn't know how to type?

I decided to stand up and point out that he shouldn't blame DPS for not doing their job when he wasn't tanking anything and was blazing through the instance.
You see, I have the transcript of the conversation here, but names have been replaced so I don't break the Tenets:

Meanie: REALLY HORRIBLE DPS
Meanie: "Other DPS Name" is dealing 3.7k DPS...
Meanie: how is that even possible
Meanie: heavy 2h attack is garbage dude
Me: says the dw/bow tank?
Meanie: I can tank with shield but dps is terrible
Me: You obviously want to rush through this, stop typing.
Meanie: this is my 5 min pledge
Me: This is everyone's dungeon run
Meanie: solo dungeon
Meanie: [FTC] Chokethorn (+1) - 1:03 - 810,302 Damage (32,863 DPS)
Meanie: bow light attack and 2H heavy attack u are a garbage

(it was at this point that he insulted me personally for bow light attacks on a bunch of minions that I decided to vote kick him. I didn't feel like explaining I wanted to get killing blows on non-boss enemies with bow to level the skill line as I was taught to do because I'm below level 50 in skill-line and level. Hail of Arrows and Caltrops were already down! ...The vote kick was successful.)

Me: good people
Meanie (now in /say due to being kicked): u guys wanted a caary
Meanie (now in /say due to being kicked): trashes
Healer: blow me
Me: Lol

Then in the middle of the final bossfight he whispered me: "Garbages play with garbages I guess go play Mine craft trash builds"
Our healer said something along the lines of "hey on our second last boss" so I assume he whispered the other group members too and our healer accidentally responded in group chat??
I simply muted him. I didn't report him (even though I'll admit my spite made me want to...) because he only whispered me once and that's not harassment. I have never encountered toxicity like that in game before.

I am watching a Netflix series right now that features characters who stand up for people in need. I saw what I perceived to be a new player struggling to keep up, and this harsh criticism in Elden Hollow 1, casual and easy, was no place for such high standards and insulting judgments so I stood up against the bully as eloquently as I could. I chose not to be a bystander. Then we, the three of us, stood up to a bully and kicked him out. Hopefully that teaches him that the tortoise beats the hare. I just had to write it all out to get it off my level 40 Hunding's Rage heavy chest armor if you don't think it's relevant I understand that's why I hid it away. Hopefully that teaches him not to rush and be mean.
"This seems to be against the rules of the game, exploited by DPS who want a queue that is 20 seconds instead of 20 minutes."

As a healer, it is simply for me.

Can you hold aggro? Can you perform tanking mechanics? Can you avoid getting 1 shotted?

Good enough for me.

Jeremy · September 2018

Shraar wrote: »

Hello, intermediate player here and I'd like your opinion on something.

My understanding of tank is someone who should be the most durable party member, the one who leads the charge, engages and hold aggros so his squishier teammates can focus on healing/damaging. He controls the pace of each fight.

But in ESO, I see tanks who run past everything. Who aren't shieldmaidens and who let aggression fly everywhere. Is this allowed? This seems to be against the rules of the game, exploited by DPS who want a queue that is 20 seconds instead of 20 minutes. To me, that doesn't seem fair or right or expected but I don't know this community yet and I would like to be humble and understand exactly what's going on here. The way I see it now, this kind of behaviour shouldn't be enabled/encouraged, otherwise what is the point of "roles"?

My personal story:
Just recently, I saw a Bow+DW "Tank" who was bullying a member of our party in Elden Hollow I for doing little DPS. I think he had a mod that tracked group members I have seen similar things in WoW? I could tell she wasn't very good because she only heavy attacked and used abilities but she was probably very new because she didn't respond at all, maybe she didn't know how to type?

I decided to stand up and point out that he shouldn't blame DPS for not doing their job when he wasn't tanking anything and was blazing through the instance.
You see, I have the transcript of the conversation here, but names have been replaced so I don't break the Tenets:

Meanie: REALLY HORRIBLE DPS
Meanie: "Other DPS Name" is dealing 3.7k DPS...
Meanie: how is that even possible
Meanie: heavy 2h attack is garbage dude
Me: says the dw/bow tank?
Meanie: I can tank with shield but dps is terrible
Me: You obviously want to rush through this, stop typing.
Meanie: this is my 5 min pledge
Me: This is everyone's dungeon run
Meanie: solo dungeon
Meanie: [FTC] Chokethorn (+1) - 1:03 - 810,302 Damage (32,863 DPS)
Meanie: bow light attack and 2H heavy attack u are a garbage

(it was at this point that he insulted me personally for bow light attacks on a bunch of minions that I decided to vote kick him. I didn't feel like explaining I wanted to get killing blows on non-boss enemies with bow to level the skill line as I was taught to do because I'm below level 50 in skill-line and level. Hail of Arrows and Caltrops were already down! ...The vote kick was successful.)

Me: good people
Meanie (now in /say due to being kicked): u guys wanted a caary
Meanie (now in /say due to being kicked): trashes
Healer: blow me
Me: Lol

Then in the middle of the final bossfight he whispered me: "Garbages play with garbages I guess go play Mine craft trash builds"
Our healer said something along the lines of "hey on our second last boss" so I assume he whispered the other group members too and our healer accidentally responded in group chat??
I simply muted him. I didn't report him (even though I'll admit my spite made me want to...) because he only whispered me once and that's not harassment. I have never encountered toxicity like that in game before.

I am watching a Netflix series right now that features characters who stand up for people in need. I saw what I perceived to be a new player struggling to keep up, and this harsh criticism in Elden Hollow 1, casual and easy, was no place for such high standards and insulting judgments so I stood up against the bully as eloquently as I could. I chose not to be a bystander. Then we, the three of us, stood up to a bully and kicked him out. Hopefully that teaches him that the tortoise beats the hare. I just had to write it all out to get it off my level 40 Hunding's Rage heavy chest armor if you don't think it's relevant I understand that's why I hid it away. Hopefully that teaches him not to rush and be mean.
"This seems to be against the rules of the game, exploited by DPS who want a queue that is 20 seconds instead of 20 minutes."

You're going to see a lot of this if you keep playing ESO, sadly. It's not the worse game out there community-wise, but it's not the best either. There are a lot of "elitist" jerks who like to trash and kick newer players just because they may add a couple of minutes onto their precious "speed run". It's nice to see them getting the boot for a change. So good job.

I should also point out your understanding of what a tank is - is correct. There are a lot of DPS characters who masquerade as tanks on this game. They seem to believe a tank's only job is to keep aggro on bosses. It's not. They are also suppose to help divert enemy attacks during regular pulls (not just run past them) and are also suppose to mitigate the damage they take as much as possible. They are meant to be defensive characters - not high damage characters with a taunt and crappy defense. Then there are those who don't even bother taunting at all and just let the healer tank. Those are even worse.

Artim_X · September 2018

In my opinion for the most part a tank at minimum should consistently hold aggro of the boss and any hard hitting enemies that can one shot. They should somehow contribute to the overall group damage either by significantly debuffing enemies (especially in trials) or in easier 4 man content (normal dungeons and vanilla vet dungeons) they sacrifice some of their tankiness for more personal damage, which can be quite the boon when the actual damage dealers are a bit inexperienced. However, at the end of the day as long as a tank is able to survive the content that they chose to play while holding aggro one could say that they are playing the role of a tank, but this would essentially be a tank that is just starting out and for normal dungeons that is perfectly fine.

It's unfortunate that your group had such a bad experience, but it's good that your group ended up kicking the player. In the future if it's clear that someone is being toxic during a run just initiate a vote kick right away. Chances are if you felt that a person was being toxic the others will agree as well.

harlam · September 2018

I feel your pain. I was trying to do Moon Hunter Keep last night, and providing the tank can survive the larger hits from the and keep things like the larger werewolves faced away from the DPS the mechanics outside of that are fairly straight forward.

4 "tanks" it took running in and getting 1 shot, or not knowing (and no being willing to listen to and understand) the mechanics of certain bosses before we finally got someone who was properly capable of holding agro and even though unaware of boss mechanics, was willing to ask and listen to learn and succeed.

I'd much rather fail a few times helping someone learn what to do and improve their knowledge, than burn through both repair kits and my time with ungrateful and egocentric players who ruin the experience for the 3 other members of the group

It's a shame as this part of the game is one of the bits I enjoy. New dungeons, learning tactics/mechanics and working with others, but players like the ones mentioned here ruin it. I have genuinely considered a re-spec on my main to tank even though I prefer DPS on that class just to be able to actually enjoy the newer content

Salvas_Aren · September 2018

General opinion on tanks: Hold aggro, buff and/or debuff, survive while doing this.

I'm fine with: Hold aggro, rez if all DDs are dead, survive while doing this.

As long as you pug, you will meet a lot of people who complain about everything and the dead skeever next to it. One of the cutest stories I know is about a guy/girl who would hateswhisp our tank for 10 mins after kicking. We remember of this incident as the *How dare you* story.

DeadlyRecluse · September 2018

Shraar wrote: »

hold aggro

If i'm pugging, this is literally the entirety of my expectation.

remilafo · September 2018

This is a never ending discussion. And it's not the players fault, it's the game design

ESO --> play the way you want
simultaneous
ESO --> we have dungeons that are designed around the tank/healer/dps motif..

Personally my tolerance for people doing their roles really depends on what the content is..
Normal dungeon/trial -- play the way you want, seriously.. go nuts and have fun.

When it comes to vet difficultly the reality is that we do need people to perform and be good at what they do, the severity of that requirement increases or decreases depending on what the exactly dungeon or trial it is.

I will NEVER judge or vote kick anyone on a normal dungeon.

AcadianPaladin · September 2018

Intermediate level main tank: Grab the boss, turn the boss away from group, hold the boss in a fairly fixed location so the dps' AoE's are effective, don't die.

An intermediate tank should have all this down and be working on knowing more detail on dungeon mechanics and refining skill at pulling and holding priority foes (beyond the boss) into the tank so the bigger threats are held in a tight killing zone for the dps.

Since area/multiple target taunts do not exist and abilities that lock foes in position are very short duration, it is not reasonable to expect a tank to pull in and hold all trash - as much as the tank would like to.

Sorry that you encountered what appears to be a toxic player who was not focused on the tank role.

VaranisArano · September 2018

All I ask is that you hold boss aggro, hold the boss more or less still, and don't die.

Now, a good tank does all that, crowd controls adds, taunts priority adds, block bashes, interrupts, follows mechanics, buffs the group and debuffs the boss.

AhPook_Is_Here · September 2018

The core definition of a tank is the player who taunts mobs from most dangerous to least and can then take their hits and survive, ideally with their own resources.

The expanded definition also includes group utility boost to dps, defense and correcting DPS judgement errors with soul-stones.

If you want to tank start with the core definition and go from there.

raj72616a · September 2018

there is no aoe taunts, mobs do go everywhere if the group doesnt stack together. follow the tank to pull all those trash mobs into one spot for efficient slaughter. it can only be achieved by coordinated movement of the whole group, if you insist to stay behind and fight mobs in small group of five or so, no tank can do anything abt it, we don't have enough stamina to taunt all of them one by one.

Narvuntien · September 2018

Taunt.
Hold the boss still.
Don't die.

kathandira · September 2018

My own personal story about a DPS who queued up as a Tank.

Last night I did Moon Hunter Keep for the first time on my Healer. I didn't know the mechanics going in, and neither did the 2 DPS I was with. The DPS were from my guild, so we were on the Mic discussing the encounters and sharing what we learned with each wipe. We went through 7 tanks....2 of them actually gave it a fair shot before leaving. 4 of them were added to the group, then after a minute or so of waiting for them to run to us, they up and left.

The last tank we got was a Sorc Tank. We ran the Werewolf boss with him about 2 times before he joined us on the Mic. He was totally down with discussing what we learned so far as it was his first time as well. He admitted that he was a DPS who queued as a Tank, but is using Inner Fire to taunt, and is doing his best at filling the role. He was a really nice dude, and didn't feel the need to point the blame at anyone's abilities or lack there of. We gave it a few more tries before me and 1 other member had to split for a Guild Event. After a hour or so in there, everyone felt that was fair since we all gave it our best.

We didn't succeed, but it was a nice run all the same. Everyone was chill, and understanding, and cool. I know Faux Tanks can be a pain in the butt, but sometimes you get one who isn't trying to hide the fact that they aren't a true tank, and are actually really nice people.

snegurd · September 2018

Tanks really have 2 jobs imo. 1) reduce the damage your group takes and 2) increase the damage your group does.

1) is achieved by holding aggro on the boss and important adds/trash, debuffing the boss's damage (maim, etc), interrupting, following mechanics, and healing/shielding the group.

2) is achieved by grouping adds/trash together, holding the boss in place, debuffing the boss's resistance (crusher, Alkosh, etc), and buffing the group's DPS.

There are a few other issues at hand here.

First of all, the issue of "fake tanks" (DDs queuing as tanks to avoid a long queue) is certainly prevalent. I would say half the time I queue as a DD the tank has less than 25k health and is clearly a DD build. For some dungeons this isn't really an issue but once you get to the vet II dungeons and the DLC ones it can ruin runs. I think issues with the Dungeon Finder are well documented and are the root cause of this.

Second, the aggression from that fake tank in your personal story is sad to see. We all play ESO as a means of having fun and interacting with a fantastic community. It's really disappointing when some players try and ruin that. Good on you for handling it maturely.

Strider__Roshin · September 2018

I always queue as a tank with my magsorc. All I do is slot inner fire and I'm good to go. With 14k health btw, and I also always do vet HM.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@raj72616a , if part of the group is behind and fights mobs, it means one thing - that the tank have ran forward instead of doing the tank stuff.

Stick with the group, smack the mobs with an AOE to get them on you for a moment, chain in ranged ones, taunt heavy hitters, pack all tight and CC for damage dealers to handle. "They insisted on staying behind" is just another way to say that you insisted on running ahead.

DuskMarine · September 2018

tanks have high health sword and board or sword and board with ice staff back bar.

raj72616a · September 2018

there is *no* aoe taunt in the game.
caltrops, endless hail, nothing's gonna get all the mobs on me, i aggro them, they go for you squishy dps. there is no threat no hate mechanics in the game, it's just taunted or not taunted. and we only have single target taunt.

DuskMarine · September 2018

raj72616a wrote: »

there is *no* aoe taunt in the game.
caltrops, endless hail, nothing's gonna get all the mobs on me, i aggro them, they go for you squishy dps. there is no threat no hate mechanics in the game, it's just taunted or not taunted. and we only have single target taunt.

well you as the tank should only be tanking the heavy hitting enemies like bosses or elites. if the dps and healer cant handle the rest you need to drop the scrubs and grab some new people

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@raj72616a, you have crowd control - talons, time stop, whatever works - and chains or silver leash to pack up the ranged ones. And if you're not running ahead of the group and past the mobs, you'll keep them on you. Move with the group's pace, that will be enough of a guarantee that nobody is "staying behind".

DuskMarine · September 2018

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@raj72616a, you have crowd control - talons, time stop, whatever works - and chains or silver leash to pack up the ranged ones. And if you're not running ahead of the group and past the mobs, you'll keep them on you. Move with the group's pace, that will be enough of a guarantee that nobody is "staying behind".

that only works in a premade group in a group of pugs tank either moves or their is no movement most times.

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@DuskMarine , you move, they move, they fell behind, stop and let them catch up, that's how it works. Keep in mind some of them might be doing quest, or just being thorough exploring.

Tryxus · September 2018

Here's my pug story from a few days ago:

- vFG1: "Tank" was using DW+Bow... in Heavy Armor. "No, that just makes you an even worse liar."
- Vet Selene's Web: Tank seemed fine, he did use S&B + 2H and his HP was just below 30k but it didn't matter if he could taunt and hold aggro at least. Tank proceeded to turn into a Werewolf... "Where's the Taunt skill on WW? Oh wait..."
- Normal Fang Lair: Couldn't find a group in guild, decided to pug this on normal cuz I def didn't want a fake tank on vet. "Tank" that I got grouped with... was a Snipe spamming NB... "Well, you got my aggro at least!"

raj72616a · September 2018

do you kill every trash mob in ICP? in FG? never skip a mob? even with a low dps group?

keevil111 · September 2018

Some may view it differently and that's OK. I believe tank = leader. Taunt, root, buff, protect, yada yada yada. Most important is leadership.

A good leader does everything in his/her power to HELP THE GROUP! A good leader also listens to the group for ideas and advice when offered. Being a jerk about everything is stupid.

How many times have I patiently wiped while my low level group tries to figure out mechanics on some boss in some dungeon? I explain, we try again. I have left groups but I always say good try or hey maybe next time.

I f*****g hate sh***y little twerps who treat people like garbage! Little morons who think that their video game guy is better than everyone else's video game guy! SERIOUSLY, DUDE? WHO CARES?! Little a**hole mother f****rs! There, I said it.

Sorry, got a little off topic... What was the question?

max_only · September 2018

Another post about fake tanks.

Seems to be an epidemic.

Which is weird because I’ve seen at least 5 other people wearing Ebon Armory at any one time when I’m in Wayrest or Elden Root.

They must only tank for friends then.

I dunno maybe if the old dungeons could actually use a tank we’d see more of them instead of this pervasive attitude of “4 dds is better yuk yuk yuk”

NyassaV · September 2018

If you can clear the dungeon then don't complain. It doesn't matter what role you queue as so long as you can clear. Basically as long as you get through it, shut up please.

I tank as a DPS all the time. Sometimes I only have agro 80% of the time since I don't have a taunt slotted but I can put shade on my flex spot which applies the debuff that tanks are needed for so it's not like anyone is suffering hard here.

https://clips.twitch.tv/SarcasticGeniusWerewolfBIRB

But that guy sounds ruuuude

John_Falstaff · September 2018

@raj72616a , especially with low DPS groups and newbies. No, if the group is high CP and unanimously wants to rush, I run along. But if the group's taking it slow? Sure, killing everything in ICP. And in FG1 too. And especially with sub-50 folks, I necessarily remind them right after loading the dungeon that they shouldn't feel pressed for time, and more so if they're on a quest, they should relax, read dialogue and immerse (and thanks to game populace, I imagine newbies would be twitchy, seeing high CP someone and expecting them to rush, so I say that upfront in chat). Hey, I'm playing a game, my leisure time isn't more important than their leisure time, and seeing folks enjoying themselves is a gratification on its own.

And yes, I stick around afterwards to let everyone finish quests, and don't quit the group on my own after saying goodbyes and giving my thanks for the run; sometimes I teleport away (not like the loss of 146 gold will make me a beggar) not to auto-kick them, and they can round up, explore the dungeon and ungroup when they want. People deserve to enjoy the game, it's a nice thing to see them do so. So... yes, hope I replied in full. ^^

But returning to tanks - yes, tanks is the point of attack. But it doesn't mean he should run past the mobs and generally be that guy. Comes with the job description.