DPS tests are dumb...change my mind

JinMori · September 2018

Joker99 wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Tbh if you have high latency, 100+ms, you’re probably not gonna be hitting “leet deeps” numbers

You also don’t really need to if you can sustain 30k dps

People hit “leet deeps” on PTS with around 250+ ping on StamBlade, ping is NOT an excuse.

Yep, i hit 54k on stam nb on the pts on a 3 mil dummy and 50 on 6 mil pts has a latency of about 250, not an excuse.

Minyassa · September 2018

Not gonna try and change your mind on this. This crap is what kept me from trying for months because I tweaked and fussed and respecced and worked on new gear and practiced my rotations until I disabled both of my hands by resurrecting old carpal tunnel problems, and still can't do a consistent 30k (I'm not full CP yet and have YET to get my damn shoulder to drop but I spike up past 40k on occasion in actual combat), but after my lovely guildmates told me to eff that noise and just come play, I realized that I stay alive, kill bad things and contribute meaningfully to my team without that crap and I just wasted like six months because these accursed forum discussions made me feel like I couldn't.

Play the game. Have fun. If people are going to reject you for not playing it their way, play with someone else. That someone else totally exists.

DanteYoda · September 2018

Man this game needs an overhaul badly.. All this wasted mechanics and content only a fraction of the player base plays and for what a few bits of gear to do it all over again... sheesh

What happened to actual fun and entertainment in gaming.. What happened to teamwork and using our brains..

No smash those skills and play like a robot... to get slightly better shinies so you can rinse repeat it all over again.. Gaming has fallen far in 20 years...

Joy_Division · September 2018

DPS tests are a great feature. It allows me to quickly test gear, setups, and improve my game-play without dragging my friends to help me when they have better things to do.

DPS requirement, on the other hand, to to get in a group or guild are often short-sighted and nonsensical

gamerguy757 · September 2018

DPS tests are very useful...but to base a performance off them is dumb...and dumber to base a self-parse off them? I mean, yeah I'm facing Z'maja by myself with no buffs, no aide nothing, seems legit.

When I'm in vet Trials, my attacks hit twice as hard thanks to all buffs, group debuffs everything.

If it was me, and you can hit at least 30k self parse and/or hit Flawless Conqueror, you're good in my book. That's what my guild leader does and we all do just fine.

Tyrobag · September 2018

Anyone telling you 30k dps is low is an elitist moron, if you have 30k dps solo on a 6 mill dummy then you can complete any content in the game comfortably. 20k dps is low, 30k is above average.

As for the question in the OP, dps tests are very useful, they tell you how much dps you pull. They let you improve to get above that 30k threshold.

Revelzdevelz · September 2018

gamerguy757 wrote: »

So all my DPS toons on my dungeons and Trial build are all hitting 30k. Now some folks will be like “Oh that’s so low! What’s wrong with you?”
Guess what? I know my build, I know my rotation, I have meta end game gear, I know all dungeon mechanics, and I can stay TF alive.
So why base your ability off a dummy DPS test? It helps learn the rotation, but stop basing everything off it.

you do not know your build or rotation if you are only hitting 30k. 30k is fine to beat most content but not to get the best scores or all hardmodes.

Dubhliam · September 2018

gamerguy757 wrote: »

So all my DPS toons on my dungeons and Trial build are all hitting 30k. Now some folks will be like “Oh that’s so low! What’s wrong with you?”
Guess what? I know my build, I know my rotation, I have meta end game gear, I know all dungeon mechanics, and I can stay TF alive.
So why base your ability off a dummy DPS test? It helps learn the rotation, but stop basing everything off it.

IMO, it's much easier to fill a group with 50k DPS damage dealers, identify the ones that die a lot and cross them off the "core" list of regular trial goers.

Why do people assume that a person that does 50k on a dummy can't also stay alive in dungeon and trial environment?
Wow, you can survive. Gratz?

zaria · September 2018

Dubhliam wrote: »

gamerguy757 wrote: »

So all my DPS toons on my dungeons and Trial build are all hitting 30k. Now some folks will be like “Oh that’s so low! What’s wrong with you?”
Guess what? I know my build, I know my rotation, I have meta end game gear, I know all dungeon mechanics, and I can stay TF alive.
So why base your ability off a dummy DPS test? It helps learn the rotation, but stop basing everything off it.

IMO, it's much easier to fill a group with 50k DPS damage dealers, identify the ones that die a lot and cross them off the "core" list of regular trial goers.

Why do people assume that a person that does 50k on a dummy can't also stay alive in dungeon and trial environment?
Wow, you can survive. Gratz?

This, the high dps players die a lot is stupid, they have an very good understanding of game mechanic for one.
Now this might date back to WOW at some stage there many raid settings was fairly static dps races while harder dungeon required lots of movement.

In eso it might be that the high dps player offer to help in an dlc dungeon has not done it before and need time to learn mechanic, the 3 other who has wiped for hours know very well.

Haquor · September 2018

gamerguy757 wrote: »

So all my DPS toons on my dungeons and Trial build are all hitting 30k. Now some folks will be like “Oh that’s so low! What’s wrong with you?”
Guess what? I know my build, I know my rotation, I have meta end game gear, I know all dungeon mechanics, and I can stay TF alive.
So why base your ability off a dummy DPS test? It helps learn the rotation, but stop basing everything off it.

Dps rotation proficiency and potential damage output show the players understanding of thier class and skills.

It is ONE of the requirements of a dpser attending trials.obviously others are reaction times and an understanding of mechsnics. If there were tests for these then no doubt you would be asked to prove your abilities on them first aswel. But there arent(other thsn playing the content). So pekple generally hust ask you to display the one skill that is measursble outside of group content. Dps.

Instead of making the argument, that is so often made, that 'oh its not the only thing' thst is important look at it this way:

Someone who cannot do high damage in benign conditions such as a dummy parse is unlikely to do good damage dodging aoes and responding to mechanics.

Like conducting a fitness test for the military and being like.... yeah i can only do 12 pushups but what about my situps and run? Unfortunately you are supposed to be good at sll of them.

DisgracefulMind · September 2018

I think it just comes down to the fact that you shouldn't expect people to carry you through content. It's not fair if you're pulling 30k and the other guys are doing 60k.

Just how I feel about it.

I'd say the same to a healer who doesn't want to run buffs and debuffs for their raid group, but expects the other healer to.

Dubhliam · September 2018

The whole point of the DPS comparison is not to identify the "minimum requirement" for a trial completion.
As people have said, 25k was enough for a vMoL clear when that trial was new.

But guess what?
25k was top notch back then. This number identified those players as THE BEST. Those players invested time and skill, and nobody could claim to be better than those players at that time.

Today however, if you say you have 30k DPS, I bet half the server would say they are better. Because they are.
Many players do over 30k DPS today without even breaking a sweat.

So the point is not in "how much is necessary to clear?", but rather "how much of a dead weight am I?".

If all the da,age dealers in the raid except you are doing 50k DPS, you are getting carried.
If all the damage dealers in the raid are on the same level DPS as you, then you are fine.
However, keep in mind that today a group with full 30k DPS composition will most likely fail vMoL unlike the 25k group form back in the day,
WHY?
The effort. The difference is in the effort invested of each and every player.

Ashtaris · September 2018

Sky_WK wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

I thought people had 25k dps when vMoL came out?

They did. But DPS requirements for admittance to groups steadily rise over time even if nothing whatsoever changed in the dungeon. One day you will be required to have no less than 50k DPS to join groups entering vet Banished Cells 1.

Then that’s the day I quit playing ESO.

Then why are you here on the forums lol

Well that was really nice, and what I would expect from an elitist. Fortunately most guilds don’t require a 50K dps parse yet, so I think I’m safe for awhile.

Glurin · September 2018

Dubhliam wrote: »

If all the da,age dealers in the raid except you are doing 50k DPS, you are getting carried.

I'm sorry, but that's just BS. If you're giving it your all and doing a fair level of damage then it doesn't matter if everyone else is doing 50k, 100k, or 10,000k. You're not being carried.

You're only being carried if you aren't trying and/or are doing virtually no damage at all.

This obsession with "carry" is a big part of what causes elitism in MMOs. I've seen it get so bad at times that people were quite literally arguing over who was carrying who in a 2% damage difference.

DisgracefulMind · September 2018

Glurin wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

If all the da,age dealers in the raid except you are doing 50k DPS, you are getting carried.

I'm sorry, but that's just BS. If you're giving it your all and doing a fair level of damage then it doesn't matter if everyone else is doing 50k, 100k, or 10,000k. You're not being carried.

You're only being carried if you aren't trying and/or are doing virtually no damage at all.

This obsession with "carry" is a big part of what causes elitism in MMOs. I've seen it get so bad at times that people were quite literally arguing over who was carrying who in a 2% damage difference.

Well I do agree that arguing over a 2% difference is ridiculous.

As for a huge difference in DPS, however. To an extent it is a carry. You're bringing extremely low dps, and expecting other people to carry your weight and make up for the dps loss that you have. If you're in a progression group and everyone is doing similar numbers, that's great, and that's what those groups are for. If you're in a group expecting people to clear a trial and they're all experienced, and you're pulling significantly lower numbers than them, that's leaning towards carrying.

That being said, if the player WANTS to improve and is trying to, usually people who pull higher numbers are more than willing to help guide that player by giving tips, showing them their parses, giving them insight on where to place DoTs to be the most effective, etc.

The mentality of "well I stay alive but I pull low dps so I'm fine" isn't what people look for in raid teams and such. For dungeons, whatever, honestly.

There are people who act elite and better than everyone else, and I understand that's frustrating. But there are also many players who are extremely good at what they do who do not have that mentality, and encourage people to improve so they have a chance at experiencing end-game. Which, at the end of the day, most people want.

A good dps can stay alive, but also pull their weight. And I think that's a nice goal for dps to set for themselves.

gamerguy757 · September 2018

I’m just saying I do ALOT more DPS in trial settings then in dummy settings

Tyrobag · September 2018

gamerguy757 wrote: »

I’m just saying I do ALOT more DPS in trial settings then in dummy settings

Umm... yeah that's sort of the point. You will do a ton more damage with full raid buffs, a dummy test is what you can do without outside help. This is understood by all endgame pveers. Different raid groups may have different raid buffs, and the amount of damage you do on different enemies may vary. A solo dummy test is a stable way to gauge dps that you can compare directly to anyone else. That is why its used.

Dymence · September 2018

gamerguy757 wrote: »

I’m just saying I do ALOT more DPS in trial settings then in dummy settings

Obviously, because of group buffs.

But people who are hitting way more than you on dummy are going to be hitting way more than you in raid aswell. That's just the thing. You aren't going to magically be more OP in raid than you are on a dummy. If you are mediocre on dummy, you are mediocre in raid. It's as simple as that, honestly.

JinMori · September 2018

Dymence wrote: »

gamerguy757 wrote: »

I’m just saying I do ALOT more DPS in trial settings then in dummy settings

Obviously, because of group buffs.

But people who are hitting way more than you on dummy are going to be hitting way more than you in raid aswell. That's just the thing. You aren't going to magically be more OP in raid than you are on a dummy. If you are mediocre on dummy, you are mediocre in raid. It's as simple as that, honestly.

In terms of dps of course. If you are terrible at a dummy, it means that your rotation is not good, gear etc...

Bigevilpeter · September 2018

Because some people can pull 40-50k dps and still know mechanics and can stay TF alive

Lutallo · September 2018

If you actually have meta end game gear and you know your rotation/build, then you're not hitting 30kdps, you'd be hitting over 45k this patch depending on what you play. So unfortunately, either your rotation is bad or your gear isn't meta. Which is why people might choose not to pick you up. Just saying.

ghastley · September 2018

The dummy parse is one data point out of many. It's already been pointed out that it doesn't include any buffs from teammates, or debuffs of the target. It also omits any response from the target, and need to self-heal.

You can max DPS at the expense of any self-heal, which requires the team you run with to be extra-specialized. The healer is your only hope if the attention of boss or adds turns to you. The tank better be able to contain any boss, even if it can't be taunted. Which in turn means they have no spare capacity for damage-dealing. The overall team damage may suffer because you're maximizing only one element. You can't evaluate the pro's and con's of team performance in isolation, on a single dummy.

Royaji · September 2018

ghastley wrote: »

The dummy parse is one data point out of many. It's already been pointed out that it doesn't include any buffs from teammates, or debuffs of the target. It also omits any response from the target, and need to self-heal.

You can max DPS at the expense of any self-heal, which requires the team you run with to be extra-specialized. The healer is your only hope if the attention of boss or adds turns to you. The tank better be able to contain any boss, even if it can't be taunted. Which in turn means they have no spare capacity for damage-dealing. The overall team damage may suffer because you're maximizing only one element. You can't evaluate the pro's and con's of team performance in isolation, on a single dummy.

High specialization groups have more overall damage than a bunch of jack-of-all trades. DDs max out their DPS, healers make sure that DDs stay alive and buffed and tanks are indeed able to containt any boss (the ones that ignore taunt never hit hard/have avoidable mechanics) and debuff the enemy instead of focusing on useless 10-15k DPS. This is how you reach maximum team damage.

SkillzMFG · September 2018

gamerguy757 wrote: »

So all my DPS toons on my dungeons and Trial build are all hitting 30k. Now some folks will be like “Oh that’s so low! What’s wrong with you?”
Guess what? I know my build, I know my rotation, I have meta end game gear, I know all dungeon mechanics, and I can stay TF alive.
So why base your ability off a dummy DPS test? It helps learn the rotation, but stop basing everything off it.

Amen brotha!

Izaki · September 2018

swirve wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

FakeFox wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

I'm not saying IRL skill should be taken out of the mix, but perhaps ability to repeat a timing and pattern shouldn't be the end-all-be-all for high DPS in an RPG?

And it isn't. Taking this rotation and situationaly adapting it is really the key to top DPS.

Agreed. How the console types (no addons/trackers) manage it is beyond my comprehension.

I guess I'd like to see a middle ground, something between the current 'Throw any combination on your bar and effectively be guaranteed to hit this amount," (Proverbial "floor," I suppose) vs perfected timing in all circumstances to hit the top end.

I'm just not sure what that something would be. (I would like it to be something more than timed HA's during short periods of Off Balance or a lucky WM/MA synergy)

The current dynamics are still primarily lulls in rotation due to mechanics, picked up where left off in the 'timeline.' I am ever amazed at the seemingly choreographed performances of the top DPS.

The PC master race have so many crutches via add-ons and trackers... console players are playing hardcore mode.

Having played on console and then having switched to PC, this isn't really true. The only real difference between console and PC is the FPS. Addons are mostly quality of life things, they don't change the way you press buttons and time your ability casts.

Izaki · September 2018

ankeor wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

You can easily pass them on a group on around 20k dps, easily. That's how the game was when that dungeon dropped ffs...

The key word here is "easily". You can manupilate the conversation with that one word.

No. It's not easy with 8 dd's who have 20k dps on a dummy parse. And it never was. More the fight lasts more adds spawn. And when it comes to a point those with 20k solo parse can't kill adds with their aoe's only, the fight itself becomes even longer. The longer fight means you have more room to do mistakes.

And for those who say "Only thing they do is to stay still and beat a dummy mindlessly and they get 50k dps. That's not representetive." Well, people who can't take care of themself in a raid and yet have 45-55k dps (depends on class) are like shiny pokemons. I haven't seen one yet.

True