DPS tests are dumb...change my mind

gamerguy757 · August 2018

So all my DPS toons on my dungeons and Trial build are all hitting 30k. Now some folks will be like “Oh that’s so low! What’s wrong with you?”
Guess what? I know my build, I know my rotation, I have meta end game gear, I know all dungeon mechanics, and I can stay TF alive.
So why base your ability off a dummy DPS test? It helps learn the rotation, but stop basing everything off it.

inked1 · August 2018

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

idk · August 2018

Both the survivability and the dps a player can put on an actual boss that requires players to move are important. Each raid team and raid guilds have dps requirements to meet the goals of the team/guild

It comes down to each server has various tiers of guilds and raid teams and each with their own goals and requirements sets so they can be managed responsibly and easily within the expectations they have.

I can use my experience as an example, when I put together a raid in my guild I know what to expect overall and know we will have a reasonably easy clear. If it is for the weekly leaderboard I can fully expect we will have a good HM leaderboard score. Sometimes I may join a raid in another guild but understand that guild is not quite in the same place and we might have a good run or may have a few wipes.

The goal for each player is to find the guild that fits them well and they fit well yet offers room to grow and the support to help make that happen.

TheDarkShadow · August 2018

Of course if the leader already know how you play, dummy parse is not that important. It's just happen to be the easiest way a raid leader can pick a random player he never known before in 12 others who want to join the group.

FloppyTouch · August 2018

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

I thought people had 25k dps when vMoL came out?

Glurin · August 2018

FloppyTouch wrote: »

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

I thought people had 25k dps when vMoL came out?

They did. But DPS requirements for admittance to groups steadily rise over time even if nothing whatsoever changed in the dungeon. One day you will be required to have no less than 50k DPS to join groups entering vet Banished Cells 1.

Ashtaris · August 2018

Glurin wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

I thought people had 25k dps when vMoL came out?

They did. But DPS requirements for admittance to groups steadily rise over time even if nothing whatsoever changed in the dungeon. One day you will be required to have no less than 50k DPS to join groups entering vet Banished Cells 1.

Then that’s the day I quit playing ESO.

Waffennacht · August 2018

Glurin wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

I thought people had 25k dps when vMoL came out?

They did. But DPS requirements for admittance to groups steadily rise over time even if nothing whatsoever changed in the dungeon. One day you will be required to have no less than 50k DPS to join groups entering vet Banished Cells 1.

...

Not really right?

Cuz I already solo it on HM

And I ain't got no Fiddy K dps

carlos424 · August 2018

As a damage dealer, (assuming full CP) if you are hitting 30k with your character you are probably not getting the most out of him/her. Yes, experience and survivability means something. If your build is such that you have sacrificed some resources to get more health or resistances that is another story. However, if you are set up to optimize damage dealing, then you are leaving a lot of damage on the table.

Onefrkncrzypope · August 2018

I always say if you don't invest time in bringing your top dps to group you won't invest time in prog team. Everyone else is working so why can't a single stubborn dps

Odnoc · August 2018

Glurin wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

I thought people had 25k dps when vMoL came out?

They did. But DPS requirements for admittance to groups steadily rise over time even if nothing whatsoever changed in the dungeon. One day you will be required to have no less than 50k DPS to join groups entering vet Banished Cells 1.

I think the point is someone stated you won’t get past the Twins if you have 30k, if people were beating it with 25k, it just shows how flawed the “you need 30k” argument is, and pretty much invalidates the claim.

Onefrkncrzypope · August 2018

Odnoc wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

I thought people had 25k dps when vMoL came out?

They did. But DPS requirements for admittance to groups steadily rise over time even if nothing whatsoever changed in the dungeon. One day you will be required to have no less than 50k DPS to join groups entering vet Banished Cells 1.

I think the point is someone stated you won’t get past the Twins if you have 30k, if people were beating it with 25k, it just shows how flawed the “you need 30k” argument is, and pretty much invalidates the claim.

Yeah you don't need high parses to beat these trails but you need to see the other side of the group. Longer the fight the harder the utility has to work. Harder for them means they will struggle and eventually die then the team wipes.

Silver_Strider · August 2018

Until ZOS makes content that requires everyone to be at 40k minimal DPS to have even a chance to complete, the entire DPS argument can go die in a ditch.

20k is enough to clear pretty much most dungeons, even some vet DLC dungeons.
30k will get you through all vet DLC dungeons and most Vet HM Trials, if not all of them.

More than that just means you get a faster burn thru and can start going for Score Runs but ESO is such a casual heavy game that I fail to see the need for Score Run elitism that poisons the player base so heavily. ESO has way too many glitches, exploits, and cheesy set ups to be taken that seriously, IMO.

Glurin · August 2018

Odnoc wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

inked1 wrote: »

Because if you go into vMoL with a group of dps that only hits 30k you won’t get past the twins. Your group has to have enough dps to get pasta certain burn phases

I thought people had 25k dps when vMoL came out?

They did. But DPS requirements for admittance to groups steadily rise over time even if nothing whatsoever changed in the dungeon. One day you will be required to have no less than 50k DPS to join groups entering vet Banished Cells 1.

I think the point is someone stated you won’t get past the Twins if you have 30k, if people were beating it with 25k, it just shows how flawed the “you need 30k” argument is, and pretty much invalidates the claim.

Course it does. But the claim gets more and more ridiculous as time goes on. The real problem is that people believe it and make up all sorts of excuses to justify it, like "it's harder on the healers if the fight lasts more than three seconds".

This is by no means a problem exclusive to ESO. It has happened and continues to happen in pretty much every MMO.

zaria · August 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Until ZOS makes content that requires everyone to be at 40k minimal DPS to have even a chance to complete, the entire DPS argument can go die in a ditch.

20k is enough to clear pretty much most dungeons, even some vet DLC dungeons.
30k will get you through all vet DLC dungeons and most Vet HM Trials, if not all of them.

More than that just means you get a faster burn thru and can start going for Score Runs but ESO is such a casual heavy game that I fail to see the need for Score Run elitism that poisons the player base so heavily. ESO has way too many glitches, exploits, and cheesy set ups to be taken that seriously, IMO.

This is true, its some dps checks but they are low by todays standard. Slimecrawl is the most famous one.
Yes some potato pugs manages to screw up this but that is another issue.

On the other hand higher dps makes it easier and if you run an trial group you would also select among the higher dps players. In one of my guild its an trial group, they increased dps requirement to 35k simply as group got to large.

AbysmalGhul · August 2018

Vmol requirements

Twins: Need to know mechanics, burn means nothing if can't you follow the color-coded Wendy's coloring book

Rakkat: Burn and slight mechanics. You don't need 30k , but 30k + is definitely welcome

gamerguy757 wrote: »

So all my DPS toons on my dungeons and Trial build are all hitting 30k. Now some folks will be like “Oh that’s so low! What’s wrong with you?”
Guess what? I know my build, I know my rotation, I have meta end game gear, I know all dungeon mechanics, and I can stay TF alive.
So why base your ability off a dummy DPS test? It helps learn the rotation, but stop basing everything off it.

But you just based 1 of your abilities off of the target dummy.....

TheInfernalRage · August 2018

I only do dummy test for my rotation.

I agree with this:

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Vmol requirements

Twins: Need to know mechanics, burn means nothing if can't you follow the color-coded Wendy's coloring book

Rakkat: Burn and slight mechanics. You don't need 30k , but 30k + is definitely welcome

AbysmalGhul · August 2018

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

I only do dummy test for my rotation.

Same. I only use to keep the motor running smooth.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · August 2018

gamerguy757 wrote: »

So all my DPS toons on my dungeons and Trial build are all hitting 30k. Now some folks will be like “Oh that’s so low! What’s wrong with you?”
Guess what? I know my build, I know my rotation, I have meta end game gear, I know all dungeon mechanics, and I can stay TF alive.
So why base your ability off a dummy DPS test? It helps learn the rotation, but stop basing everything off it.

I agree the dummy test is a true reflecting of how good you will do in a dungeon or trail, it teaches you to just stand there and to rely on someone else, i prefer peeps to understand the mechanics, then dying all the time

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · August 2018

zaria wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Until ZOS makes content that requires everyone to be at 40k minimal DPS to have even a chance to complete, the entire DPS argument can go die in a ditch.

20k is enough to clear pretty much most dungeons, even some vet DLC dungeons.
30k will get you through all vet DLC dungeons and most Vet HM Trials, if not all of them.

More than that just means you get a faster burn thru and can start going for Score Runs but ESO is such a casual heavy game that I fail to see the need for Score Run elitism that poisons the player base so heavily. ESO has way too many glitches, exploits, and cheesy set ups to be taken that seriously, IMO.

This is true, its some dps checks but they are low by todays standard. Slimecrawl is the most famous one.
Yes some potato pugs manages to screw up this but that is another issue.

On the other hand higher dps makes it easier and if you run an trial group you would also select among the higher dps players. In one of my guild its an trial group, they increased dps requirement to 35k simply as group got to large.

So they just decided to exclude peeps

frozzzen101 · August 2018

This "if people were beating it with 25k, it just shows how flawed the “you need 30k” argument is" is such utter nonsense. The thing is, when 25k was peak, players who had that dps were among best on server. They quickly adapted to mechanics, understood value of raid buffs, knew how to mitigate incoming damage and had whole skillset that you cannot see of simple 25k or 30k. Player with 25k back then outclasses 30k dd of today by massive margin that 5k dps simply cannot compensate for. 30k dd of today clearly lacks something; be it proper rotation, cp, meta relevant item sets, vMA weapon etc. He's not peak 25k player and his game awareness is lower, he has much higher chances to mess something up and loads more minuses, so to speak. This extra damage requirement is essentially your buffer for mistakes you will invariably do, and without this buffer you will not clear this trial, period.
My progression group had 35k avg dps without relequen/siroria nonsense and without LA buff and it was still barely enough to clear vMoL in the end.

Tannus15 · August 2018

My progression guild will encourage people to post a good dps parse on a skelly to see where people are at and to get some insight on how we can help them improve. If you're "only" posting 30k dps and I'm doing 40k dps on the same class / build, then chances are I might know something you don't.

We will also do the "craglorn 3" vet trials and encourage people to compare their skelly score with their boss dps. If there is a big difference then we help them identify why. Usually it's not putting down AoE dots just before movement mechanics. People who die a lot to mechanics don't get those numbers on the boss, but most people who can post a good skelly parse do very well. In my experience it's usually the people who post lower skelly parses who also seem to get killed by mechanics.

Lastly doing 30k dps is fine, but when we have 20 people in the guild and we're picking the "progression group" to work through vHoF why would we pick you over someone else who gets 40k dps? Sure, you'll get your chance, but after the primary group has cleared the content, working at it for a few months. Progression vet trials can take weeks for everyone to learn the mechanics and often the first clear is by the skin of their teeth and lower dps would have meant another week of practice.

I can honestly say anyone with a good attitude is welcome in our vet trial guild, but you need to improve and do your % of the damage as a dps otherwise you're getting carried.

StamWhipCultist · August 2018

gamerguy757 wrote: »

So all my DPS toons on my dungeons and Trial build are all hitting 30k. Now some folks will be like “Oh that’s so low! What’s wrong with you?”
Guess what? I know my build, I know my rotation, I have meta end game gear, I know all dungeon mechanics, and I can stay TF alive.
So why base your ability off a dummy DPS test? It helps learn the rotation, but stop basing everything off it.

You wanna be part of group and that group have requirements. Maybe you need another group where requirements are more to your liking.

DanteYoda · August 2018

Damn this game and its *** mechanics...

Glurin · August 2018

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Until ZOS makes content that requires everyone to be at 40k minimal DPS to have even a chance to complete, the entire DPS argument can go die in a ditch.

20k is enough to clear pretty much most dungeons, even some vet DLC dungeons.
30k will get you through all vet DLC dungeons and most Vet HM Trials, if not all of them.

More than that just means you get a faster burn thru and can start going for Score Runs but ESO is such a casual heavy game that I fail to see the need for Score Run elitism that poisons the player base so heavily. ESO has way too many glitches, exploits, and cheesy set ups to be taken that seriously, IMO.

This is true, its some dps checks but they are low by todays standard. Slimecrawl is the most famous one.
Yes some potato pugs manages to screw up this but that is another issue.

On the other hand higher dps makes it easier and if you run an trial group you would also select among the higher dps players. In one of my guild its an trial group, they increased dps requirement to 35k simply as group got to large.

So they just decided to exclude peeps

In a sense. Frankly though, I don't have a problem with progression guilds having high standards because they are looking to get on leaderboards and such. It's a bit like how the Olympic teams usually don't just take any schmuck who can make it to the end of the track. You don't have to be an Olympian to win a race, but you do if you want to be on the Olympic team.

My problem is when those standards leak out into the general population and make people start to think that even the easiest vet dungeons simply can't be done with anything less than 30k or 40k or whatever other unreasonably high number they come up with.

Finviuswe · August 2018

Nope.

They're not dumb. proficiency at the dps test directly correlates to one's ability as a dps.

DPS tests are worthwhile both for one to hone their skills as well as for evaluative purposes

GawdSB · August 2018

Honestly the dps ceiling is too high in my opinion, there’s too much of a focus on dps. I just watched earlier today an Alcast blind run of the new dungeon Moon Hunter Keep and he literally skipped every mechanic of every boss because of so much dps.

If you can just out dps everything than what’s the point of there being mechanics and such? It’s even happening with me now and I’m not max cp or as experienced, but I go into VMA and everything just dies and gets burned so quick. It’s no longer even a challenge, it’s getting ridiculous yet ZOS just keeps raising the CP cap.

XxCaLxX · August 2018

I’m kinda both ways on this. I find that the majority of ppl that spend a large amount of time doing parses are experienced players that care about their damage output and when in dungeons trials or whatever they know how to keep Dot’s up and do what’s needed to survive and keep damage going. There’s many things that dummy testing can teach you other than an exact rotation imo. Overall having good dps and being able to stay alive is most important. I’m around 40-42k solo dps on my magsorc and stamsorc. I play with a lot of ppl with higher dps but die a lot. Consider the dps loss with me having to Rez another dps when they’re down. IMO sacrificing survivability for a few more K dps isn’t worth it.

Glurin · August 2018

GawdSB wrote: »

Honestly the dps ceiling is too high in my opinion, there’s too much of a focus on dps. I just watched earlier today an Alcast blind run of the new dungeon Moon Hunter Keep and he literally skipped every mechanic of every boss because of so much dps.

If you can just out dps everything than what’s the point of there being mechanics and such? It’s even happening with me now and I’m not max cp or as experienced, but I go into VMA and everything just dies and gets burned so quick. It’s no longer even a challenge, it’s getting ridiculous yet ZOS just keeps raising the CP cap.

That's the idea. The people that are min/maxing and trying to obtain ever higher DPS numbers are doing it specifically to skip dungeon mechanics. Honestly it makes me feel that there should be some mechanics in place that punish burning the boss too quickly.

FYI, this used to be a thing in MMOs. If you did too much damage too quickly, you risked pulling aggro away from the tank and having your face introduced to a very large hammer or sword or whatever it is the boss is using. You actually had to temper yourself a bit and adjust your rotations to the tank's ability to hold the boss's attention. People who went whole hog and then blamed the tank when they died were actually looked down upon. It's been many years since that was the case though.

knudsen · August 2018

With the new changes to infused on the backbar you can hit 40k dps with a magblade just light attacking with blockade and execute. So I dont know how people with end game gear hit below that

Merlin13KAGL · August 2018

DPS tests are fine. Lack of true dynamic combat requiring consistent repetition to obtain that DPS is what's broken.

I'm sure there are other games out there as well, but Witcher, for example, had an interesting workaround for this (God of War, too, as I recall) allowing you to respond to certain screen cues in order to execute certain combos. There was more to it than simply moving out of the 'the red' and such. Higher hitting combos still required reaction time and visual response to achieve them, and they were not necessarily predictable. Dynamic.

It turns out, my in game characters should usually be arguably better at combat and specialized skills than my IRL self is. That's kinda the point behind playing the game. I'm not saying IRL skill should be taken out of the mix, but perhaps ability to repeat a timing and pattern shouldn't be the end-all-be-all for high DPS in an RPG?